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	<title>Comments on: Metro Fare Increase Talk</title>
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	<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/06/23/metro-fare-increase-talk/</link>
	<description>Transit in the Greater Seattle Area</description>
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		<title>By: Seattle Transit Blog &#187; News Roundup</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/06/23/metro-fare-increase-talk/#comment-5213</link>
		<dc:creator>Seattle Transit Blog &#187; News Roundup</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 02:50:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=837#comment-5213</guid>
		<description>[...] Metro Fare Increase Talk [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
[...] Metro Fare Increase Talk [...]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: lorax</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/06/23/metro-fare-increase-talk/#comment-4855</link>
		<dc:creator>lorax</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 20:29:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=837#comment-4855</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s get rid of the ride-free zone downtown.  It would make downtown buses faster and more pleasant and increase fare revenue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Let&#8217;s get rid of the ride-free zone downtown.  It would make downtown buses faster and more pleasant and increase fare revenue.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: AJ</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/06/23/metro-fare-increase-talk/#comment-4793</link>
		<dc:creator>AJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:01:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=837#comment-4793</guid>
		<description>Ben, I have been trying to put together a transit riders union since I&#039;ve moved here, and I was wondering if I could simply refocus and join in with you and other relevant interested parties in getting this up and running.

I&#039;d prefer before November, of course, since it would take work to get things going. And actually, even earlier if possible.

I say earlier since we&#039;ll hemmorhage support from a large chunk of people at UW and in Central Seattle when U-Link gets going and people begin to feel that they&#039;ve got what they want out of ST.

A totally grassroots campaign could work, especially dividing out into subareas. Flyers and all that, a simple website explaining points, etc.. We could even hand-deliver pamphlets in our particular sub-areas if needed when people inquire but can&#039;t gain access to the website. I don&#039;t know if we&#039;d have to go the entire route of using Robert&#039;s Rules, but meetings could be created easily.

I&#039;ll go ahead and propose a meeting at Piecora&#039;s at 14th and Madison on a future Saturday afternoon.

First meeting to discuss direction, goals, support levels (as in &quot;Positive toward all transit&quot; or &quot;Prefers bus, neutral on rail&quot; or &quot;Neutral on transit, economically minded, wants congestion solution&quot;) and how far this should go. Given my experience with Metro (bus was 45 minutes late today, for example), I&#039;d say the discussion needs to be opened ASAP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Ben, I have been trying to put together a transit riders union since I&#8217;ve moved here, and I was wondering if I could simply refocus and join in with you and other relevant interested parties in getting this up and running.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d prefer before November, of course, since it would take work to get things going. And actually, even earlier if possible.</p>
<p>I say earlier since we&#8217;ll hemmorhage support from a large chunk of people at UW and in Central Seattle when U-Link gets going and people begin to feel that they&#8217;ve got what they want out of ST.</p>
<p>A totally grassroots campaign could work, especially dividing out into subareas. Flyers and all that, a simple website explaining points, etc.. We could even hand-deliver pamphlets in our particular sub-areas if needed when people inquire but can&#8217;t gain access to the website. I don&#8217;t know if we&#8217;d have to go the entire route of using Robert&#8217;s Rules, but meetings could be created easily.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll go ahead and propose a meeting at Piecora&#8217;s at 14th and Madison on a future Saturday afternoon.</p>
<p>First meeting to discuss direction, goals, support levels (as in &#8220;Positive toward all transit&#8221; or &#8220;Prefers bus, neutral on rail&#8221; or &#8220;Neutral on transit, economically minded, wants congestion solution&#8221;) and how far this should go. Given my experience with Metro (bus was 45 minutes late today, for example), I&#8217;d say the discussion needs to be opened ASAP.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: andrew cencini</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/06/23/metro-fare-increase-talk/#comment-4777</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew cencini</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:49:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=837#comment-4777</guid>
		<description>i&#039;d suggest reducing service, not eliminating routes - the pickings are slim though.  most of the reductions would be taking 1-2 trips / day off of a bunch of routes - e.g. the 25, 16, maybe the 38 and a few other ones.</description>
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i&#8217;d suggest reducing service, not eliminating routes &#8211; the pickings are slim though.  most of the reductions would be taking 1-2 trips / day off of a bunch of routes &#8211; e.g. the 25, 16, maybe the 38 and a few other ones.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: justin</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/06/23/metro-fare-increase-talk/#comment-4774</link>
		<dc:creator>justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:24:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=837#comment-4774</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think they should cut any service, it&#039;s a chicken or the egg for many routes.  I like the other posters idea to extend the electric trolley lines further.

There is a bus that does a decent job getting to my work, but it only runs ONCE an hour, and I have a fixed schedule that would make me wait 45 mins before and after work.

I&#039;m sure that route does not have that many riders, but I would take it everyday the weather stunk if it ran more often...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I don&#8217;t think they should cut any service, it&#8217;s a chicken or the egg for many routes.  I like the other posters idea to extend the electric trolley lines further.</p>
<p>There is a bus that does a decent job getting to my work, but it only runs ONCE an hour, and I have a fixed schedule that would make me wait 45 mins before and after work.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure that route does not have that many riders, but I would take it everyday the weather stunk if it ran more often&#8230;<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/06/23/metro-fare-increase-talk/#comment-4770</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:49:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=837#comment-4770</guid>
		<description>What Seattle route would you suggest eliminating?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
What Seattle route would you suggest eliminating?<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: andrew cencini</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/06/23/metro-fare-increase-talk/#comment-4764</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew cencini</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:49:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=837#comment-4764</guid>
		<description>i should mention cutting low-ridership / redundant service in seattle should be as fair game as anything outside of the city - it doesn&#039;t come across as clear in my suggestions above but there are plenty of places in seattle where virtually pointless service could be suspended (though i would argue the pickins are a bit more slim for core in-city routes)

the whole idea of subarea equity - be it for bus service hours or any other transportation spending - doesn&#039;t really make sense philosophically.  proportionally distributing cash vs spending regional money where it can do the greatest good is beyond arbitrary.  the nature of transit and transportation is moving people to, from and through places - building and maintaining these systems sometimes mean you need to spend more (or less) in different areas to make the whole thing work.  tying funding to the notion of subarea equity just makes hard problems harder by adding a completely arbitrary extra dimension.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
i should mention cutting low-ridership / redundant service in seattle should be as fair game as anything outside of the city &#8211; it doesn&#8217;t come across as clear in my suggestions above but there are plenty of places in seattle where virtually pointless service could be suspended (though i would argue the pickins are a bit more slim for core in-city routes)</p>
<p>the whole idea of subarea equity &#8211; be it for bus service hours or any other transportation spending &#8211; doesn&#8217;t really make sense philosophically.  proportionally distributing cash vs spending regional money where it can do the greatest good is beyond arbitrary.  the nature of transit and transportation is moving people to, from and through places &#8211; building and maintaining these systems sometimes mean you need to spend more (or less) in different areas to make the whole thing work.  tying funding to the notion of subarea equity just makes hard problems harder by adding a completely arbitrary extra dimension.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/06/23/metro-fare-increase-talk/#comment-4762</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:30:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=837#comment-4762</guid>
		<description>Not really. We do subsidize both the Eastside and South County for &lt;b&gt;new&lt;/b&gt; metro service. But we are subsidised for existing service.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Not really. We do subsidize both the Eastside and South County for <b>new</b> metro service. But we are subsidised for existing service.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: AJ</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/06/23/metro-fare-increase-talk/#comment-4760</link>
		<dc:creator>AJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=837#comment-4760</guid>
		<description>We heavily subsidize the eastside.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
We heavily subsidize the eastside.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Martin H. Duke</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/06/23/metro-fare-increase-talk/#comment-4758</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin H. Duke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:46:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=837#comment-4758</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t invested much time in thinking about 20/40/40, but I think it&#039;s a bit easy for Seattlites to say that we should get more service at the cost of the other guy.

I think it&#039;s more useful to planners to say what you&#039;re willing to give up that you actually &lt;i&gt;do&lt;/i&gt; value.

I&#039;d be curious what the funding flows are between the various regions.  Does the Eastside subsidize us?  Do both Seattle and the Eastside subsidize South County?  I&#039;m genuinely curious to know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I haven&#8217;t invested much time in thinking about 20/40/40, but I think it&#8217;s a bit easy for Seattlites to say that we should get more service at the cost of the other guy.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s more useful to planners to say what you&#8217;re willing to give up that you actually <i>do</i> value.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d be curious what the funding flows are between the various regions.  Does the Eastside subsidize us?  Do both Seattle and the Eastside subsidize South County?  I&#8217;m genuinely curious to know.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/06/23/metro-fare-increase-talk/#comment-4756</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:09:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=837#comment-4756</guid>
		<description>I would halt future service increases immediately. Expanding further will exacerbate the problem. Raising fares would be next, but after that, I&#039;d start cutting service.

Ideally, we should revisit the crazy 20/40/40 rule, which I need to write about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I would halt future service increases immediately. Expanding further will exacerbate the problem. Raising fares would be next, but after that, I&#8217;d start cutting service.</p>
<p>Ideally, we should revisit the crazy 20/40/40 rule, which I need to write about.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/06/23/metro-fare-increase-talk/#comment-4755</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:06:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=837#comment-4755</guid>
		<description>They don&#039;t have that choice. We have a nasty rule about what percentage of service hours go where, and so cutting suburban service would also require cutting urban service.

As long as Sims is county exec, it&#039;s going to stay that way, too. The short term thing we can do is elect Larry Phillips.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
They don&#8217;t have that choice. We have a nasty rule about what percentage of service hours go where, and so cutting suburban service would also require cutting urban service.</p>
<p>As long as Sims is county exec, it&#8217;s going to stay that way, too. The short term thing we can do is elect Larry Phillips.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: John Jensen (rizzuhjj)</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/06/23/metro-fare-increase-talk/#comment-4749</link>
		<dc:creator>John Jensen (rizzuhjj)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:54:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=837#comment-4749</guid>
		<description>I would first raise fares for two-zone off-peak use. Right now it&#039;s $2.25 to go two zone on a Metro bus during peak but only %1.50 during off-peak -- a 75 cent decrease.

Morgan: &quot;Supply and demand&quot; can&#039;t be applied to transit that easily. There&#039;s a massive societal cost to driving including pollution, road maintenance, and congestion. I wouldn&#039;t flip if fares were raised again because for most people it&#039;s still a value compared to gas and parking costs, but anything we can do to increase ridership will in the future usher in increases in service.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I would first raise fares for two-zone off-peak use. Right now it&#8217;s $2.25 to go two zone on a Metro bus during peak but only %1.50 during off-peak &#8212; a 75 cent decrease.</p>
<p>Morgan: &#8220;Supply and demand&#8221; can&#8217;t be applied to transit that easily. There&#8217;s a massive societal cost to driving including pollution, road maintenance, and congestion. I wouldn&#8217;t flip if fares were raised again because for most people it&#8217;s still a value compared to gas and parking costs, but anything we can do to increase ridership will in the future usher in increases in service.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Morgan Wick</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/06/23/metro-fare-increase-talk/#comment-4745</link>
		<dc:creator>Morgan Wick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:17:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=837#comment-4745</guid>
		<description>You know what? Go ahead and raise fares. It&#039;s called the law of supply and demand.

(And the last fare hike didn&#039;t affect me because my bus pass is subsidized so I kept paying only $20 for a pass whose face value went up to $1.75.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
You know what? Go ahead and raise fares. It&#8217;s called the law of supply and demand.</p>
<p>(And the last fare hike didn&#8217;t affect me because my bus pass is subsidized so I kept paying only $20 for a pass whose face value went up to $1.75.)<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: AJ</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/06/23/metro-fare-increase-talk/#comment-4743</link>
		<dc:creator>AJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:57:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=837#comment-4743</guid>
		<description>Metro seriously needs to consider emergency service cuts, especially in the suburban areas where buses can whiz by empty. If it isn&#039;t electric, it needs to be rationed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Metro seriously needs to consider emergency service cuts, especially in the suburban areas where buses can whiz by empty. If it isn&#8217;t electric, it needs to be rationed.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: andrew cencini</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/06/23/metro-fare-increase-talk/#comment-4739</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew cencini</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:34:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=837#comment-4739</guid>
		<description>it would be interesting to see some routes (48, 15, 18, etc.) moved to electric trolley buses.  this would require some capital investment to extend the trolley system but taking a few more of the frequent-service routes that run on or near existing trolley overhead and making them trolley routes with some more frankentrolleys would be interesting.

also, i think it&#039;s time the county council declares an &quot;emergency&quot; and suspends the 40-40-20 rule.  i&#039;m all for service cuts on the least-used routes (not eliminating the routes entirely in most cases, but perhaps ending the failed experiment with suburban buses that have the same headways as the #43 or #7 in town).  if the goal is to serve as many customers as possible as well as possible, it&#039;s time to ditch that rule.  this also makes sense given the growth patterns and growth management we want to drive (and the explosive growth in-city).  there is a letter i wrote about this in &lt;a href=&quot;http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2008007218_friletters20.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;friday&#039;s seattle times&lt;/a&gt; though it&#039;s not really connected to the budget shortfalls.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
it would be interesting to see some routes (48, 15, 18, etc.) moved to electric trolley buses.  this would require some capital investment to extend the trolley system but taking a few more of the frequent-service routes that run on or near existing trolley overhead and making them trolley routes with some more frankentrolleys would be interesting.</p>
<p>also, i think it&#8217;s time the county council declares an &#8220;emergency&#8221; and suspends the 40-40-20 rule.  i&#8217;m all for service cuts on the least-used routes (not eliminating the routes entirely in most cases, but perhaps ending the failed experiment with suburban buses that have the same headways as the #43 or #7 in town).  if the goal is to serve as many customers as possible as well as possible, it&#8217;s time to ditch that rule.  this also makes sense given the growth patterns and growth management we want to drive (and the explosive growth in-city).  there is a letter i wrote about this in <a href="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2008007218_friletters20.html" rel="nofollow">friday&#8217;s seattle times</a> though it&#8217;s not really connected to the budget shortfalls.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Morgan Wick</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/06/23/metro-fare-increase-talk/#comment-4735</link>
		<dc:creator>Morgan Wick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 07:34:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=837#comment-4735</guid>
		<description>What transit agencies should be doing is following the lead of Pierce Transit and smaller LA-area transit agencies and move to CNG or other alternative fuel buses.

But what they REALLY should be doing is building electric rail systems, including passing ST2 here.

Or am I just turning into you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
What transit agencies should be doing is following the lead of Pierce Transit and smaller LA-area transit agencies and move to CNG or other alternative fuel buses.</p>
<p>But what they REALLY should be doing is building electric rail systems, including passing ST2 here.</p>
<p>Or am I just turning into you?<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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