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	<title>Comments on: Rainier Valley Circulators</title>
	<atom:link href="http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/08/31/downtown-circulators/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/08/31/downtown-circulators/</link>
	<description>Transit in the Greater Seattle Area</description>
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		<title>By: Classification of Transfers by Headway Length - Seattle Transit Blog</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/08/31/downtown-circulators/#comment-42094</link>
		<dc:creator>Classification of Transfers by Headway Length - Seattle Transit Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:41:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1049#comment-42094</guid>
		<description>[...] reading Martin&#8217;s post about the SW Seattle service changes here, here and here I wanted to add a few comments about transfers. Basically, all transfers are not equal. I [...]</description>
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[...] reading Martin&#8217;s post about the SW Seattle service changes here, here and here I wanted to add a few comments about transfers. Basically, all transfers are not equal. I [...]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Metro Service Change, Maps and Commentary - Seattle Transit Blog</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/08/31/downtown-circulators/#comment-41699</link>
		<dc:creator>Metro Service Change, Maps and Commentary - Seattle Transit Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:36:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1049#comment-41699</guid>
		<description>[...] actually sympathetic to Burkhart&#8217;s points; longtime readers might recall my August proposal to nuke the whole system and replace it with circulator routes.  However, Metro resources are far [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
[...] actually sympathetic to Burkhart&#8217;s points; longtime readers might recall my August proposal to nuke the whole system and replace it with circulator routes.  However, Metro resources are far [...]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Seattle Transit Blog &#187; Southeast Seattle Service Changes</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/08/31/downtown-circulators/#comment-11985</link>
		<dc:creator>Seattle Transit Blog &#187; Southeast Seattle Service Changes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 04:13:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1049#comment-11985</guid>
		<description>[...] Rainier Valley Circulators [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
[...] Rainier Valley Circulators [...]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Seattle Transit Blog &#187; From the &#8216;No&#8217; Campaign</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/08/31/downtown-circulators/#comment-8468</link>
		<dc:creator>Seattle Transit Blog &#187; From the &#8216;No&#8217; Campaign</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 22:53:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1049#comment-8468</guid>
		<description>[...] Rainier Valley Circulators [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
[...] Rainier Valley Circulators [...]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Becca Aue</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/08/31/downtown-circulators/#comment-8457</link>
		<dc:creator>Becca Aue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 17:27:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1049#comment-8457</guid>
		<description>I think the #39 would have to be upped in frequency to every 15 minutes during the peak hours to make this concept work, and as proposed, definitely would need evening/nightime and weekened service (every 30 min.).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I think the #39 would have to be upped in frequency to every 15 minutes during the peak hours to make this concept work, and as proposed, definitely would need evening/nightime and weekened service (every 30 min.).<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: A Transit Guy</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/08/31/downtown-circulators/#comment-8358</link>
		<dc:creator>A Transit Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 20:59:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1049#comment-8358</guid>
		<description>SLU streetcar voltage (nominal 700 volts) is same as Metro Trolleybus system. In theory at least, they can share a power supply system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
SLU streetcar voltage (nominal 700 volts) is same as Metro Trolleybus system. In theory at least, they can share a power supply system.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: alexjonlin</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/08/31/downtown-circulators/#comment-8349</link>
		<dc:creator>alexjonlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 19:41:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1049#comment-8349</guid>
		<description>I would hope that these would all eventually become streetcars, although the city currently has no plans for streetcars anywhere south of Jackson. And does anyone know what voltage the slu streetcar has, because I know there are a couple places where trolleybus lines cross the streetcar&#039;s overhead wire.</description>
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I would hope that these would all eventually become streetcars, although the city currently has no plans for streetcars anywhere south of Jackson. And does anyone know what voltage the slu streetcar has, because I know there are a couple places where trolleybus lines cross the streetcar&#8217;s overhead wire.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Multimodal Man</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/08/31/downtown-circulators/#comment-8303</link>
		<dc:creator>Multimodal Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Sep 2008 21:44:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1049#comment-8303</guid>
		<description>Re: #39. My apologies. I thought you had upped the headway. So I retract my comment on that point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Re: #39. My apologies. I thought you had upped the headway. So I retract my comment on that point.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Martin H. Duke</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/08/31/downtown-circulators/#comment-8302</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin H. Duke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Sep 2008 21:26:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1049#comment-8302</guid>
		<description>Multimodal, 

Good, constructive comments.  I meant to address the electrification issue, but didn&#039;t get to it.  I had suspected that wiring the cross streets would be a good medium term capital project, but hadn&#039;t considered the issue of crossing the tracks.  So you&#039;re right, the circulators stick us with diesels.  Another drawback, I guess.

I would dispute your statement that the 39 and 48 would be best.  The 39 is half-hour service, the 48 15-minute.  On Beacon and Rainier you have at least one, and often two, circulators going by every 15 minutes in each direction.

It&#039;s true that some trips are going to require more transfers -- I believe that&#039;s inevitable when there&#039;s no route that exactly matches LINK, if you&#039;re going to eliminate routes at all.  For instance, there isn&#039;t any direct way to get from MLK to the I-90 freeway station if the 42 goes away, which is probably going to happen, and affects me personally.

To address the specific example that you raise (RB to Little Saigon), if they&#039;re close enough to RB station it&#039;s still a 2-seat ride, and much faster to boot. The idea here is that LR gives you enough time savings over the bus that for really long-haul trips up Rainier and Beacon the circulator transfer (or a bit of walking) probably washes out in terms of time.  God knows the 7 takes forever to get all the way uptown.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Multimodal, </p>
<p>Good, constructive comments.  I meant to address the electrification issue, but didn&#8217;t get to it.  I had suspected that wiring the cross streets would be a good medium term capital project, but hadn&#8217;t considered the issue of crossing the tracks.  So you&#8217;re right, the circulators stick us with diesels.  Another drawback, I guess.</p>
<p>I would dispute your statement that the 39 and 48 would be best.  The 39 is half-hour service, the 48 15-minute.  On Beacon and Rainier you have at least one, and often two, circulators going by every 15 minutes in each direction.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s true that some trips are going to require more transfers &#8212; I believe that&#8217;s inevitable when there&#8217;s no route that exactly matches LINK, if you&#8217;re going to eliminate routes at all.  For instance, there isn&#8217;t any direct way to get from MLK to the I-90 freeway station if the 42 goes away, which is probably going to happen, and affects me personally.</p>
<p>To address the specific example that you raise (RB to Little Saigon), if they&#8217;re close enough to RB station it&#8217;s still a 2-seat ride, and much faster to boot. The idea here is that LR gives you enough time savings over the bus that for really long-haul trips up Rainier and Beacon the circulator transfer (or a bit of walking) probably washes out in terms of time.  God knows the 7 takes forever to get all the way uptown.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: joshuadf</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/08/31/downtown-circulators/#comment-8298</link>
		<dc:creator>joshuadf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Sep 2008 19:21:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1049#comment-8298</guid>
		<description>Actually, doesn&#039;t the 7 have a very poor on-time schedule? I may be uninformed since I don&#039;t go to Rainer Valley often, but I think that bus does in fact get stuck in traffic all the time. 

The loop concept seems good to me and might allow better bus service to Capitol Hill by getting the 7 and 9 away from busier streets and difficult intersections.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Actually, doesn&#8217;t the 7 have a very poor on-time schedule? I may be uninformed since I don&#8217;t go to Rainer Valley often, but I think that bus does in fact get stuck in traffic all the time. </p>
<p>The loop concept seems good to me and might allow better bus service to Capitol Hill by getting the 7 and 9 away from busier streets and difficult intersections.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: EvergreenRailfan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/08/31/downtown-circulators/#comment-8296</link>
		<dc:creator>EvergreenRailfan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Sep 2008 18:06:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1049#comment-8296</guid>
		<description>I would prefer the 7 stay, and be a feeder to Light Rail as it passes through Mt. Baker Station, and comes close to two other stations. It&#039;s best to keep the trolleys, the way Metro has been complaining they are getting hurt by rising Diesel Fuel. Possibly make the loops trolleybuses where possible. Already have some wire in place. It was a bad mistake by Seattle Transit to dieselize the 7 in 1963, and Metro brought it back 15 years later. Although with the 7, maybe eventually replace it with a streetcar.</description>
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I would prefer the 7 stay, and be a feeder to Light Rail as it passes through Mt. Baker Station, and comes close to two other stations. It&#8217;s best to keep the trolleys, the way Metro has been complaining they are getting hurt by rising Diesel Fuel. Possibly make the loops trolleybuses where possible. Already have some wire in place. It was a bad mistake by Seattle Transit to dieselize the 7 in 1963, and Metro brought it back 15 years later. Although with the 7, maybe eventually replace it with a streetcar.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Multimodal Man</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/08/31/downtown-circulators/#comment-8294</link>
		<dc:creator>Multimodal Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Sep 2008 16:43:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1049#comment-8294</guid>
		<description>Here are constructive comments that I hope you will consider in providing input to Metro and Sound Transit. I too hope the agencies (particularly Metro) are bold and do radical things, as long as the radical things will be beneficial to the most number of riders (or future riders).

The loop routes in either concept would have to be diesel buses for the foreseeable future: the lateral connections of the loops have no overhead trolley wire; the extensions Metro is constructing in time for Link next year do not cross Link light rail. I&#039;ve heard there are issues with the fact that the Link overhead catenary wires carry 1500 volts while the trolleybus wire is 700 volts (1500 volts is a typical for light rail); It would be an exciting fireworks display until one of the systems faults.
In Concept #1, the 36 routing shown would have to be a diesel bus since there will be no wire south of Othello Street. The route 9, on the other hand, could become a trolley bus, unless you want it to skip stops north of Mt. Baker Station. In which case, all buses would need to be diesel south of Mt. Baker Station (since the #7 would be in the way at most stops).
Concept #2&#039;s elimination of the 9 and 7 south of Mt. Baker Station and the 36 south of Beacon Hill Station Mt. Baker and Beacon Hill Link stations respectively would mean a complete elimination of electric transit service south of these Link stations.
Traveling up and down Rainier Avenue in Concept #2 appears to become rather difficult. A trip from Rainier Beach to Little Saigon would require two transfers (either on Rainier or using Link), for something today requires no transfers. If headways are optimized for transfers to rail, then transfers on Beacon Avenue S and Rainier Avenue S would likely be suboptimal.
I believe (correct me if I’m wrong) will typically be 7.5 minutes for most of the day to S. Henderson Street Station (half of trains would turn back). Would 15-minute headways on buses have sufficient capacity to effectively “feed” Link?
With the loops, where would bus operators layover? This would be important to identify early on, since some part of the loop would be disrupted by waits of 10-15 minutes; longer than most people will want to sit on a bus that’s not moving. Light rail stations would probably be the easiest to have layover, but it disrupts the concept of the circulators providing intra-valley travel.
It looks like the best bus service in the valley would be the 39 and 48. MLK consequently has both really good rail and good bus service while Beacon Avenue and Rainier see a significant reduction from today’s service levels (10 minutes) plus more diesel buses than currently.
Concepts that reduce the number of trolley buses in operation will likely have a negative impact on Metro’s fleet constraint, since the constraint is primarily in the diesel fleet. Trolley buses (and particularly the 60 foot trolley buses on the 7) are far less fungible/transferable than diesel buses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Here are constructive comments that I hope you will consider in providing input to Metro and Sound Transit. I too hope the agencies (particularly Metro) are bold and do radical things, as long as the radical things will be beneficial to the most number of riders (or future riders).</p>
<p>The loop routes in either concept would have to be diesel buses for the foreseeable future: the lateral connections of the loops have no overhead trolley wire; the extensions Metro is constructing in time for Link next year do not cross Link light rail. I&#8217;ve heard there are issues with the fact that the Link overhead catenary wires carry 1500 volts while the trolleybus wire is 700 volts (1500 volts is a typical for light rail); It would be an exciting fireworks display until one of the systems faults.<br />
In Concept #1, the 36 routing shown would have to be a diesel bus since there will be no wire south of Othello Street. The route 9, on the other hand, could become a trolley bus, unless you want it to skip stops north of Mt. Baker Station. In which case, all buses would need to be diesel south of Mt. Baker Station (since the #7 would be in the way at most stops).<br />
Concept #2&#8242;s elimination of the 9 and 7 south of Mt. Baker Station and the 36 south of Beacon Hill Station Mt. Baker and Beacon Hill Link stations respectively would mean a complete elimination of electric transit service south of these Link stations.<br />
Traveling up and down Rainier Avenue in Concept #2 appears to become rather difficult. A trip from Rainier Beach to Little Saigon would require two transfers (either on Rainier or using Link), for something today requires no transfers. If headways are optimized for transfers to rail, then transfers on Beacon Avenue S and Rainier Avenue S would likely be suboptimal.<br />
I believe (correct me if I’m wrong) will typically be 7.5 minutes for most of the day to S. Henderson Street Station (half of trains would turn back). Would 15-minute headways on buses have sufficient capacity to effectively “feed” Link?<br />
With the loops, where would bus operators layover? This would be important to identify early on, since some part of the loop would be disrupted by waits of 10-15 minutes; longer than most people will want to sit on a bus that’s not moving. Light rail stations would probably be the easiest to have layover, but it disrupts the concept of the circulators providing intra-valley travel.<br />
It looks like the best bus service in the valley would be the 39 and 48. MLK consequently has both really good rail and good bus service while Beacon Avenue and Rainier see a significant reduction from today’s service levels (10 minutes) plus more diesel buses than currently.<br />
Concepts that reduce the number of trolley buses in operation will likely have a negative impact on Metro’s fleet constraint, since the constraint is primarily in the diesel fleet. Trolley buses (and particularly the 60 foot trolley buses on the 7) are far less fungible/transferable than diesel buses.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: brad</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/08/31/downtown-circulators/#comment-8292</link>
		<dc:creator>brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Sep 2008 16:17:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1049#comment-8292</guid>
		<description>Since the mantra of this blog is &quot;train is always better than bus AND buses always get stuck in traffic&quot; then I can&#039;t fathom how the double-loop would even be considered here.</description>
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Since the mantra of this blog is &#8220;train is always better than bus AND buses always get stuck in traffic&#8221; then I can&#8217;t fathom how the double-loop would even be considered here.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Matt the Engineer</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/08/31/downtown-circulators/#comment-8252</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt the Engineer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Sep 2008 01:58:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1049#comment-8252</guid>
		<description>Looks like a nicely detailed solution to the problem.  I prefer #1, since it reduces any possible wait for a bus plus has a short travel time to a station.  It will require more buses than #2, but still looks like there&#039;s a savings from the current system.  Also, short loops make for fewer traffic delay problems.

#2 is a nice trick, and saves quite a few buses to do almost the same job.  It looks like it should give the same frequency of service as currently exists, so it may be a good short term option since KC can use all the buses they can find right now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Looks like a nicely detailed solution to the problem.  I prefer #1, since it reduces any possible wait for a bus plus has a short travel time to a station.  It will require more buses than #2, but still looks like there&#8217;s a savings from the current system.  Also, short loops make for fewer traffic delay problems.</p>
<p>#2 is a nice trick, and saves quite a few buses to do almost the same job.  It looks like it should give the same frequency of service as currently exists, so it may be a good short term option since KC can use all the buses they can find right now.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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