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	<title>Comments on: These Costs Are All Voodoo. Light Rail Is A House.</title>
	<atom:link href="http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/26/these-costs-are-all-voodoo-light-rail-is-a-house/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/26/these-costs-are-all-voodoo-light-rail-is-a-house/</link>
	<description>Transit in the Greater Seattle Area</description>
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		<title>By: serial catowner</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/26/these-costs-are-all-voodoo-light-rail-is-a-house/#comment-10822</link>
		<dc:creator>serial catowner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 15:37:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1121#comment-10822</guid>
		<description>Gotta go with the &quot;condense it down and make it pithier&quot; idea.

Maybe best to lead with an explanation- &quot;The sticker price will pretty much double over 30 years at 5%, &lt;i&gt;but the investment also appreciates by about that same amount&lt;/i&gt;.&quot;

That&#039;s why people invest in houses- sure, the price doubles because of the interest, but so does the value.

And the investment nature of the investment needs to be front and center at all times.

The people who oppose transit like to do an &#039;October Surprise&quot; show where they pretend they were for the project until THEY SUDDENLY REALIZED just how much it would cost.  This plays into the American paranoia that &#039;Mr. Big&#039; is going to swindle John Q Public.  In South Lake Union, Paul Allen has been designated to be &#039;Mr. Big&#039; and anything that happens there is described in terms of this dynamic, regardless of who actually is involved.

Like a stock prospectus, the statement of out-of-pocket monthly costs must always have a disclaimer- several in fact- &quot;In general terms the monthly cost is around $80, &lt;i&gt;which of course would go up if inflation makes prices rise...&lt;/i&gt;

These issues are the pith and core of the whole thing forever, so I would urge Ben to consider revising and contracting his remarks.  

If I were doing it I would start by outlining the original post to establish the points to be made, and then re-arranging considerably the order in which the points are made.  Then one draft should be devoted simply to wringing the water out.  Paragraphs can usually be reduced by half if you think of what is to be said and then make that into an opening sentence, a statement, and a closing sentence.

Well!  I guess that&#039;s just about enough out of me!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Gotta go with the &#8220;condense it down and make it pithier&#8221; idea.</p>
<p>Maybe best to lead with an explanation- &#8220;The sticker price will pretty much double over 30 years at 5%, <i>but the investment also appreciates by about that same amount</i>.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why people invest in houses- sure, the price doubles because of the interest, but so does the value.</p>
<p>And the investment nature of the investment needs to be front and center at all times.</p>
<p>The people who oppose transit like to do an &#8216;October Surprise&#8221; show where they pretend they were for the project until THEY SUDDENLY REALIZED just how much it would cost.  This plays into the American paranoia that &#8216;Mr. Big&#8217; is going to swindle John Q Public.  In South Lake Union, Paul Allen has been designated to be &#8216;Mr. Big&#8217; and anything that happens there is described in terms of this dynamic, regardless of who actually is involved.</p>
<p>Like a stock prospectus, the statement of out-of-pocket monthly costs must always have a disclaimer- several in fact- &#8220;In general terms the monthly cost is around $80, <i>which of course would go up if inflation makes prices rise&#8230;</i></p>
<p>These issues are the pith and core of the whole thing forever, so I would urge Ben to consider revising and contracting his remarks.  </p>
<p>If I were doing it I would start by outlining the original post to establish the points to be made, and then re-arranging considerably the order in which the points are made.  Then one draft should be devoted simply to wringing the water out.  Paragraphs can usually be reduced by half if you think of what is to be said and then make that into an opening sentence, a statement, and a closing sentence.</p>
<p>Well!  I guess that&#8217;s just about enough out of me!<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/26/these-costs-are-all-voodoo-light-rail-is-a-house/#comment-10739</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 00:21:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1121#comment-10739</guid>
		<description>Well... the monorail was a very different story. It&#039;s unlikely they could have paid off their bonds at all. Sound Transit is talking about paying about 2 times the total cost (like your mortgage) when using bonds. The monorail was talking about paying 5 times.

Plus, the monorail was talking about sharing the West Seattle bridge, and running only a single track. They would not have been able to run service every three minutes with the design they had at the end, and they wouldn&#039;t have been able to modify it later, either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Well&#8230; the monorail was a very different story. It&#8217;s unlikely they could have paid off their bonds at all. Sound Transit is talking about paying about 2 times the total cost (like your mortgage) when using bonds. The monorail was talking about paying 5 times.</p>
<p>Plus, the monorail was talking about sharing the West Seattle bridge, and running only a single track. They would not have been able to run service every three minutes with the design they had at the end, and they wouldn&#8217;t have been able to modify it later, either.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: J</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/26/these-costs-are-all-voodoo-light-rail-is-a-house/#comment-10735</link>
		<dc:creator>J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 23:32:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1121#comment-10735</guid>
		<description>Amen and hooray! Now, if we could just condense this down and make it pithier.

And if people&#039;d understood this, we&#039;d be riding that monorail today.

The media love big numbers, because it sounds more like news. We need to call them to account every time they do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Amen and hooray! Now, if we could just condense this down and make it pithier.</p>
<p>And if people&#8217;d understood this, we&#8217;d be riding that monorail today.</p>
<p>The media love big numbers, because it sounds more like news. We need to call them to account every time they do.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/26/these-costs-are-all-voodoo-light-rail-is-a-house/#comment-10706</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 20:46:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1121#comment-10706</guid>
		<description>I have a couple of copies of Don&#039;t Think of an Elephant, and you&#039;re quite right. I don&#039;t want to go back and edit this one now, but I&#039;ll try to use &#039;investment&#039; in the future. Thanks for noticing. :)

I think here, it&#039;s going to be something like 40c/passenger mile for Link versus 80c/pm for bus service.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I have a couple of copies of Don&#8217;t Think of an Elephant, and you&#8217;re quite right. I don&#8217;t want to go back and edit this one now, but I&#8217;ll try to use &#8216;investment&#8217; in the future. Thanks for noticing. :)</p>
<p>I think here, it&#8217;s going to be something like 40c/passenger mile for Link versus 80c/pm for bus service.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: The Overhead Wire</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/26/these-costs-are-all-voodoo-light-rail-is-a-house/#comment-10704</link>
		<dc:creator>The Overhead Wire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 20:30:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1121#comment-10704</guid>
		<description>Excellent post Ben.  I see this crap all over the country and right now Denver is getting attacked because of inflation that no one could have anticipated, even the anti-transit folks.  But I will refer back to Lakeoff on another point that you&#039;re missing.  You keep using the word &quot;cost&quot;.  Did you read Don&#039;t Think of an Elephant also?  You should if you haven&#039;t.  Excellent stuff.  But the point that you make will be even better if you make people understand in basic terms that their houses are not &quot;costs&quot; but rather investments.  The idea over time as you said is to keep your operations low so that it doesn&#039;t blow up the bank.  Take a look at San Diego where they have light rail separated from their bus system.  The investment in light rail has allowed them to keep their passenger mile operating &quot;cost&quot; at around 25 cents, versus the current 55 cents for a car or more for buses (couldn&#039;t get the number but it&#039;s like 60 cents or something. APTA has all these stats)  

I do it all the time unfortunately but I&#039;ve been trying to train myself to use the term investment because it gets to your point about the house.  People make investments that they will get something out of.  They invest in roads so they can drive on them and cars to they can ride in them.  Why people always mention light rail is a &quot;cost&quot; is a disconnect that needs to be addressed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Excellent post Ben.  I see this crap all over the country and right now Denver is getting attacked because of inflation that no one could have anticipated, even the anti-transit folks.  But I will refer back to Lakeoff on another point that you&#8217;re missing.  You keep using the word &#8220;cost&#8221;.  Did you read Don&#8217;t Think of an Elephant also?  You should if you haven&#8217;t.  Excellent stuff.  But the point that you make will be even better if you make people understand in basic terms that their houses are not &#8220;costs&#8221; but rather investments.  The idea over time as you said is to keep your operations low so that it doesn&#8217;t blow up the bank.  Take a look at San Diego where they have light rail separated from their bus system.  The investment in light rail has allowed them to keep their passenger mile operating &#8220;cost&#8221; at around 25 cents, versus the current 55 cents for a car or more for buses (couldn&#8217;t get the number but it&#8217;s like 60 cents or something. APTA has all these stats)  </p>
<p>I do it all the time unfortunately but I&#8217;ve been trying to train myself to use the term investment because it gets to your point about the house.  People make investments that they will get something out of.  They invest in roads so they can drive on them and cars to they can ride in them.  Why people always mention light rail is a &#8220;cost&#8221; is a disconnect that needs to be addressed.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: joshuadf</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/26/these-costs-are-all-voodoo-light-rail-is-a-house/#comment-10672</link>
		<dc:creator>joshuadf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 17:56:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1121#comment-10672</guid>
		<description>Just don&#039;t finance that house with an option ARM like the Monorail tried. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Just don&#8217;t finance that house with an option ARM like the Monorail tried. :)<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/26/these-costs-are-all-voodoo-light-rail-is-a-house/#comment-10669</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 17:47:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1121#comment-10669</guid>
		<description>Well, thank you. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Well, thank you. :)<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: AJ</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/26/these-costs-are-all-voodoo-light-rail-is-a-house/#comment-10662</link>
		<dc:creator>AJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 17:13:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1121#comment-10662</guid>
		<description>I made it up myself and bounced it off some people at work and it went over really well so I use it a lot now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I made it up myself and bounced it off some people at work and it went over really well so I use it a lot now.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/26/these-costs-are-all-voodoo-light-rail-is-a-house/#comment-10661</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:59:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1121#comment-10661</guid>
		<description>I love the bank teller analogy! I&#039;d never heard that, but I like it a lot, and I&#039;ll use it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I love the bank teller analogy! I&#8217;d never heard that, but I like it a lot, and I&#8217;ll use it.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/26/these-costs-are-all-voodoo-light-rail-is-a-house/#comment-10660</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:59:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1121#comment-10660</guid>
		<description>I think WSDOT currently has about 400 projects under way at a cost of about $15 billion (in today&#039;s dollars, or even older dollars).

The 405 projects all put together are around $11 billion, and some are unfunded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I think WSDOT currently has about 400 projects under way at a cost of about $15 billion (in today&#8217;s dollars, or even older dollars).</p>
<p>The 405 projects all put together are around $11 billion, and some are unfunded.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: AJ</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/26/these-costs-are-all-voodoo-light-rail-is-a-house/#comment-10657</link>
		<dc:creator>AJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:55:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1121#comment-10657</guid>
		<description>I think hammering home the $69 point is a good way to get people to understand their contribution.

As far as &quot;how will this help me?&quot; goes, one can use the Bank Teller analogy: Imagine you&#039;re at the end of a long line at a bank, only one teller is on staff. A second teller arrives. You can either stay in your line and let others choose the alternative or you can choose the alternative yourelf. Either way, you get to where you&#039;re going faster.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I think hammering home the $69 point is a good way to get people to understand their contribution.</p>
<p>As far as &#8220;how will this help me?&#8221; goes, one can use the Bank Teller analogy: Imagine you&#8217;re at the end of a long line at a bank, only one teller is on staff. A second teller arrives. You can either stay in your line and let others choose the alternative or you can choose the alternative yourelf. Either way, you get to where you&#8217;re going faster.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: runnerodb83</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/26/these-costs-are-all-voodoo-light-rail-is-a-house/#comment-10656</link>
		<dc:creator>runnerodb83</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:51:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1121#comment-10656</guid>
		<description>Great post...the numbers are basically &quot;useless&quot; as 17.9 billion or whatever amount is a collective cost for several million people (and visitors to the region) over the course of several years.  Anyone know how much WSDOT has spent on freeway projects in the past few years that have immediately filled up with more traffic?  The 405 widening, aka the Kirkland Crawl, was probably 100 million or more and MAYBE its reduced drive time by a minute or two.  Link will reduce travel times and adding capcaity is as easy as hooking another car on.  Not to menchion, it is likely to reduce freeway congestion for those who have no choice but to drive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Great post&#8230;the numbers are basically &#8220;useless&#8221; as 17.9 billion or whatever amount is a collective cost for several million people (and visitors to the region) over the course of several years.  Anyone know how much WSDOT has spent on freeway projects in the past few years that have immediately filled up with more traffic?  The 405 widening, aka the Kirkland Crawl, was probably 100 million or more and MAYBE its reduced drive time by a minute or two.  Link will reduce travel times and adding capcaity is as easy as hooking another car on.  Not to menchion, it is likely to reduce freeway congestion for those who have no choice but to drive.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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