Comments on: Making the Seattle Streetcar more attractive http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/29/making-the-seattle-streetcar-more-attractive/ Transit in the Greater Seattle Area Thu, 18 Mar 2010 06:16:41 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: serial catowner http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/29/making-the-seattle-streetcar-more-attractive/#comment-11826 serial catowner Sun, 05 Oct 2008 18:56:49 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1135#comment-11826 Actually, the trolley bus routes were mostly "heritage" choices and places where the steep hills made the electric buses cheaper or more capable than diesels. That was 40 years ago, at that time most neighborhoods were depressed and even devastated in some cases by the building of the freeway. Since then, the areas served by trolley buses rebounded faster and higher than neighborhoods served by diesels, generally. Maybe due to more view property on taller steeper hills. Actually, the trolley bus routes were mostly “heritage” choices and places where the steep hills made the electric buses cheaper or more capable than diesels.

That was 40 years ago, at that time most neighborhoods were depressed and even devastated in some cases by the building of the freeway.

Since then, the areas served by trolley buses rebounded faster and higher than neighborhoods served by diesels, generally. Maybe due to more view property on taller steeper hills.

]]> By: Matt the Engineer http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/29/making-the-seattle-streetcar-more-attractive/#comment-11355 Matt the Engineer Wed, 01 Oct 2008 16:34:16 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1135#comment-11355 I'm still a fan of rebuilding the counterbalance. It wouldn't be that expensive or difficult, would be the final leg to tap into a large pool of dense housing, would keep our history alive, and would be a great tourist draw (and this is the same route that would go past Pike's Market). I think the issue of replacing diesel buses with streetcars is that electric bus trolleys were put in at the high capacity routes. Hence you'd end up with low ridership. I’m still a fan of rebuilding the counterbalance. It wouldn’t be that expensive or difficult, would be the final leg to tap into a large pool of dense housing, would keep our history alive, and would be a great tourist draw (and this is the same route that would go past Pike’s Market).

I think the issue of replacing diesel buses with streetcars is that electric bus trolleys were put in at the high capacity routes. Hence you’d end up with low ridership.

]]> By: Steve http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/29/making-the-seattle-streetcar-more-attractive/#comment-11343 Steve Wed, 01 Oct 2008 12:07:22 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1135#comment-11343 Keo: They are quite a bit steeper. Try riding a bike up each of them (well, maybe not Madison -- it's pretty busy). You'll see that Fremont is a long but fairly easy bike ride, while Queen Anne is absolutely too steep to ride in anything but the lowest gear of most bikes. eddiew: The streetcar report (http://www.seattlestreetcar.org/future.asp) largely predicts operating cost decreases for new lines which replace bus lines. They may be optimistic on ad revenue, IMHO, but still, I expect it'll be a wash. The big funding issue is for capital costs. Keo: They are quite a bit steeper. Try riding a bike up each of them (well, maybe not Madison — it’s pretty busy). You’ll see that Fremont is a long but fairly easy bike ride, while Queen Anne is absolutely too steep to ride in anything but the lowest gear of most bikes.

eddiew: The streetcar report (http://www.seattlestreetcar.org/future.asp) largely predicts operating cost decreases for new lines which replace bus lines. They may be optimistic on ad revenue, IMHO, but still, I expect it’ll be a wash. The big funding issue is for capital costs.

]]> By: Keo http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/29/making-the-seattle-streetcar-more-attractive/#comment-11330 Keo Wed, 01 Oct 2008 06:28:52 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1135#comment-11330 Are Queen Anne/Madison really that much steeper than Fremont? Are Queen Anne/Madison really that much steeper than Fremont?

]]> By: eddiew http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/29/making-the-seattle-streetcar-more-attractive/#comment-11318 eddiew Wed, 01 Oct 2008 03:45:34 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1135#comment-11318 BB, your orignial post would correct one of the flaws of the SLU line: its failure to penetrate downtown Seattle; but I doubt Nickels would devote lane space to the streetcar on those arterials. Keo, Note that the East Madison Street and Queen Anne counter balance alignments are too steep for streetcars without the assistance provided them in the first half of the 20th Century. Matt, Please note that ST routes 510, 511, and 545 run southbound on 5th Avenue. Also, in the a.m. peak period, routes 513, 250, 252, 257, 260, 261, 265, 266, 268, and 311 run southbound on 5th Avenue. All, An early issue: finding new service subsidy for improved frequency and new lines. Also, how about placing streetcars on corridors that have diesel bus routes rather than already clean quiet electric trolleybuses. Even the Central Line on 1st Avenue is largely redundant to existing trolleybus overhead. BB,
your orignial post would correct one of the flaws of the SLU line: its failure to penetrate downtown Seattle; but I doubt Nickels would devote lane space to the streetcar on those arterials.

Keo,
Note that the East Madison Street and Queen Anne counter balance alignments are too steep for streetcars without the assistance provided them in the first half of the 20th Century.

Matt,
Please note that ST routes 510, 511, and 545 run southbound on 5th Avenue. Also, in the a.m. peak period, routes 513, 250, 252, 257, 260, 261, 265, 266, 268, and 311 run southbound on 5th Avenue.

All,
An early issue: finding new service subsidy for improved frequency and new lines. Also, how about placing streetcars on corridors that have diesel bus routes rather than already clean quiet electric trolleybuses. Even the Central Line on 1st Avenue is largely redundant to existing trolleybus overhead.

]]> By: Zach http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/29/making-the-seattle-streetcar-more-attractive/#comment-11305 Zach Wed, 01 Oct 2008 01:49:25 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1135#comment-11305 I really like the spirit of your idea, but I would ask for something more intensive in the Regrade. There is so much density (and planned density) there, and yet is a difficult to get around with any speed at all. I remember one mid-Friday afternoon when it took me 30 minutes to drive from the Sculpture Park area to I-5. How about either a circular, or maybe: instead of one green line, you could have the "lite green" that runs along 1st and alongside the boulevard up to Ballard/Crown Hill, and a "dark green" line that runs up 5th to Seattle Center, and on to Queen Anne, before it joins the lite green line? Just brainstorming.... I really like the spirit of your idea, but I would ask for something more intensive in the Regrade. There is so much density (and planned density) there, and yet is a difficult to get around with any speed at all. I remember one mid-Friday afternoon when it took me 30 minutes to drive from the Sculpture Park area to I-5.

How about either a circular, or maybe:

instead of one green line, you could have the “lite green” that runs along 1st and alongside the boulevard up to Ballard/Crown Hill, and a “dark green” line that runs up 5th to Seattle Center, and on to Queen Anne, before it joins the lite green line?

Just brainstorming….

]]> By: Al http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/29/making-the-seattle-streetcar-more-attractive/#comment-11261 Al Tue, 30 Sep 2008 16:30:30 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1135#comment-11261 I ride the bus, take the streetcar sometimes, but ride my bike most of the time because my bike is faster than both bus and streetcar. If the streetcar is routed down 1st, then you must make it safe for bicyclists. 2nd Ave is not a good alternative due to a myriad of saftely gaffes the city has called "bike facilities." I use 1st Ave instead. I'd love to see the streetcar on 1st if it used an inside lane so bikes could safely use the street (think Portland, OR). Ban buses from 1st. Ban street parking on 1st. The streetcar could easily travel down 1st, past the stadiums; yes they have bus service now, but have you been caught on one during game traffic? Dedicated track lanes. BTW: I've taken the street car lately and it's been very busy mornings and evenings, with tourists, students and office workers, construction workers, etc. I ride the bus, take the streetcar sometimes, but ride my bike most of the time because my bike is faster than both bus and streetcar. If the streetcar is routed down 1st, then you must make it safe for bicyclists. 2nd Ave is not a good alternative due to a myriad of saftely gaffes the city has called “bike facilities.” I use 1st Ave instead. I’d love to see the streetcar on 1st if it used an inside lane so bikes could safely use the street (think Portland, OR). Ban buses from 1st. Ban street parking on 1st. The streetcar could easily travel down 1st, past the stadiums; yes they have bus service now, but have you been caught on one during game traffic? Dedicated track lanes.

BTW: I’ve taken the street car lately and it’s been very busy mornings and evenings, with tourists, students and office workers, construction workers, etc.

]]> By: Jeff P. http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/29/making-the-seattle-streetcar-more-attractive/#comment-11250 Jeff P. Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:27:09 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1135#comment-11250 I didn't say that you could walk <i>as fast</i> as the streetcar. Travel time = transit time + wait time. It's the wait time that kills you. Several times I had the experience where I could walk all the way from Westlake Hub to Mercer before a car caught up with me. I was living in SLU and commuting to Union Station. Didn't take long to realize that there was no point trying to ride the Streetcar. I didn’t say that you could walk as fast as the streetcar. Travel time = transit time + wait time. It’s the wait time that kills you.

Several times I had the experience where I could walk all the way from Westlake Hub to Mercer before a car caught up with me. I was living in SLU and commuting to Union Station. Didn’t take long to realize that there was no point trying to ride the Streetcar.

]]> By: Steve http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/29/making-the-seattle-streetcar-more-attractive/#comment-11209 Steve Tue, 30 Sep 2008 07:01:43 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1135#comment-11209 I think a UW extension would replace the bus service on Eastlake, probably running at about the same frequency as the existing bus or maybe slightly more frequently (every 10-12 minutes). This would decrease the operating cost along the line (i.e. the extended streetcar alone would be cheaper to operate than the existing streetcar and the 70) and increase the capacity (because the streetcar can carry a lot more people than a non-articulated trolleybus). I don't think it could pay for itself in operating cost reduction in less than 50-60 years, but still, anything that both lowers costs and increases capacity is good. That said, it would remove bus service for people along Fairview (the 70 runs up Fairview rather than Westlake/Terry through SLU) and along the upper Ave (the 70 goes all the way to 52nd, and during the school year, it gets packed with students from 52nd to Campus Parkway). But the biggest issue with the UW extension is probably Chris Leman, an Eastlake neighborhood activist who is adamantly opposed to the UW extension, primarily on the grounds that it would take away parking from Eastlake merchants. I'm not saying he's in the right, just that he's persistent and irritating to his opponents, and I think the city council doesn't want to cross him on this. I think a UW extension would replace the bus service on Eastlake, probably running at about the same frequency as the existing bus or maybe slightly more frequently (every 10-12 minutes).

This would decrease the operating cost along the line (i.e. the extended streetcar alone would be cheaper to operate than the existing streetcar and the 70) and increase the capacity (because the streetcar can carry a lot more people than a non-articulated trolleybus). I don’t think it could pay for itself in operating cost reduction in less than 50-60 years, but still, anything that both lowers costs and increases capacity is good.

That said, it would remove bus service for people along Fairview (the 70 runs up Fairview rather than Westlake/Terry through SLU) and along the upper Ave (the 70 goes all the way to 52nd, and during the school year, it gets packed with students from 52nd to Campus Parkway).

But the biggest issue with the UW extension is probably Chris Leman, an Eastlake neighborhood activist who is adamantly opposed to the UW extension, primarily on the grounds that it would take away parking from Eastlake merchants. I’m not saying he’s in the right, just that he’s persistent and irritating to his opponents, and I think the city council doesn’t want to cross him on this.

]]> By: ericn http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/29/making-the-seattle-streetcar-more-attractive/#comment-11204 ericn Tue, 30 Sep 2008 05:29:55 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1135#comment-11204 During the morning/afternoon commutes it's often standing room only. There are a lot of people who get on/off at the Group Health stations. During the morning/afternoon commutes it’s often standing room only. There are a lot of people who get on/off at the Group Health stations.

]]> By: ericn http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/29/making-the-seattle-streetcar-more-attractive/#comment-11203 ericn Tue, 30 Sep 2008 05:27:09 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1135#comment-11203 The SLU shuttle mainly exists to serve the hospital, which isn't close to any buses to downtown or the proposed streetcar line. It is very close to the Husky Stadium Link station though, so once that's up and running it might be faster to take Link to Westlake Station then the SLUT to SLU than to take a shuttle/streetcar down Eastlake. The SLU shuttle mainly exists to serve the hospital, which isn’t close to any buses to downtown or the proposed streetcar line. It is very close to the Husky Stadium Link station though, so once that’s up and running it might be faster to take Link to Westlake Station then the SLUT to SLU than to take a shuttle/streetcar down Eastlake.

]]> By: ericn http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/29/making-the-seattle-streetcar-more-attractive/#comment-11202 ericn Tue, 30 Sep 2008 05:18:27 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1135#comment-11202 Also remember that Lake Union is a couple blocks to the west, and the entire Eastlake neighborhood is on a fairly steep hill. Plus Eastlake already has bus service every 10-15 minutes between 5 AM and 1:30 AM on weekdays, so there isn't really any need for more capacity right now. Also remember that Lake Union is a couple blocks to the west, and the entire Eastlake neighborhood is on a fairly steep hill. Plus Eastlake already has bus service every 10-15 minutes between 5 AM and 1:30 AM on weekdays, so there isn’t really any need for more capacity right now.

]]> By: Kaleci http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/29/making-the-seattle-streetcar-more-attractive/#comment-11196 Kaleci Tue, 30 Sep 2008 04:54:42 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1135#comment-11196 On the topic of street cars, am I the only one who is wondering about whether there might be a less expensive alternative to the First Hill street car? What if the money reserved for that were to be used to enhance trolley service on the 10, 11 and 49? In addition, some kind of signal priority can be given the buses using the trolley overhead. Then the 49 could be routed via Broadway, Boren, 12th Ave, and Jackson St to the International District. With Link serving Capitol Hill, is the 49 in its current configuration really needed? I believe not, especially if the 10 and 11 are enhanced to run every 8 to 10 minutes a piece. Likewise, the 8 and 43 should be routed together via Denny to Lower Queen Anne with a possible extension of one of these routes to West Magnolia, replacing coverage by the current 24 (or the how many times must I go up and down Magnolia before leaving the neighborhood route). This would also give Magnolia residents a direct connection to Mercer/Queen Anne area in addition of providing an opportunity for the Ballard Rapid Ride to provide faster service between downtown and Ballard. Sorry for the meandering post. On the topic of street cars, am I the only one who is wondering about whether there might be a less expensive alternative to the First Hill street car?

What if the money reserved for that were to be used to enhance trolley service on the 10, 11 and 49? In addition, some kind of signal priority can be given the buses using the trolley overhead. Then the 49 could be routed via Broadway, Boren, 12th Ave, and Jackson St to the International District. With Link serving Capitol Hill, is the 49 in its current configuration really needed? I believe not, especially if the 10 and 11 are enhanced to run every 8 to 10 minutes a piece.

Likewise, the 8 and 43 should be routed together via Denny to Lower Queen Anne with a possible extension of one of these routes to West Magnolia, replacing coverage by the current 24 (or the how many times must I go up and down Magnolia before leaving the neighborhood route). This would also give Magnolia residents a direct connection to Mercer/Queen Anne area in addition of providing an opportunity for the Ballard Rapid Ride to provide faster service between downtown and Ballard.

Sorry for the meandering post.

]]> By: Kaleci http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/29/making-the-seattle-streetcar-more-attractive/#comment-11191 Kaleci Tue, 30 Sep 2008 04:27:47 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1135#comment-11191 Why not connect it with the Aurora Rapid Ride at the very least, if not Link at NE 145th? What about heading over to the interurban right of way and going to Lynnwood? Why not connect it with the Aurora Rapid Ride at the very least, if not Link at NE 145th?

What about heading over to the interurban right of way and going to Lynnwood?

]]> By: John Jensen http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/29/making-the-seattle-streetcar-more-attractive/#comment-11188 John Jensen Tue, 30 Sep 2008 04:02:51 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1135#comment-11188 Well, I think all the proposed streetcar additions would serve neighborhoods that are dense and would benefit -- no question. But I think every streetcar addition has to be done with Link in mind. 1st Ave/Ballard lines extend the reach of Link into many dense and vibrant neighborhoods. Perhaps the UW streetcar should happen, but I believe it should be lower on the list than the 1st Ave or the Ballard line. 45th/50th will be getting a Link stop after all. Well, I think all the proposed streetcar additions would serve neighborhoods that are dense and would benefit — no question. But I think every streetcar addition has to be done with Link in mind. 1st Ave/Ballard lines extend the reach of Link into many dense and vibrant neighborhoods.

Perhaps the UW streetcar should happen, but I believe it should be lower on the list than the 1st Ave or the Ballard line. 45th/50th will be getting a Link stop after all.

]]> By: John Jensen http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/29/making-the-seattle-streetcar-more-attractive/#comment-11187 John Jensen Tue, 30 Sep 2008 03:54:03 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1135#comment-11187 AJ, I'm not sure if you're responding to me -- but Eastlake routing would border I-5 which limits development a bit. AJ, I’m not sure if you’re responding to me — but Eastlake routing would border I-5 which limits development a bit.

]]> By: Keo http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/29/making-the-seattle-streetcar-more-attractive/#comment-11172 Keo Tue, 30 Sep 2008 01:49:23 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1135#comment-11172 Also (sorry to make so many seperate comments) I'm not sure the extra routing for the Jackson line would make sense for the expense, especially if you do the 4th/5th line. Frink Park is pretty low density and probably wouldn't justify streetcar. The extra routing around the stadiums seems uneccesary considering how well that area is already served by transit. The new stuff around Qwest is literally already a block away from the Jackson line. Also (sorry to make so many seperate comments) I’m not sure the extra routing for the Jackson line would make sense for the expense, especially if you do the 4th/5th line. Frink Park is pretty low density and probably wouldn’t justify streetcar. The extra routing around the stadiums seems uneccesary considering how well that area is already served by transit. The new stuff around Qwest is literally already a block away from the Jackson line.

]]> By: Keo http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/29/making-the-seattle-streetcar-more-attractive/#comment-11169 Keo Tue, 30 Sep 2008 01:35:51 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1135#comment-11169 Actually, here is the potential West Seattle-Ballard route- http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=118219652458657252175.00044b1c0d9e9a9e2e054&ll=47.596903,-122.360229&spn=0.351441,0.891953&t=h&z=11 My inclination is to say the route on 4th/5th is just too much. However, it sure makes more sense than SLUT's current awkward last stop at Bank of America. Actually, here is the potential West Seattle-Ballard route-

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=118219652458657252175.00044b1c0d9e9a9e2e054&ll=47.596903,-122.360229&spn=0.351441,0.891953&t=h&z=11

My inclination is to say the route on 4th/5th is just too much. However, it sure makes more sense than SLUT’s current awkward last stop at Bank of America.

]]> By: Keo http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/29/making-the-seattle-streetcar-more-attractive/#comment-11168 Keo Tue, 30 Sep 2008 01:30:42 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1135#comment-11168 Sorry, I took the liberty and did it for you. At least for the route on 5th/4th ;-D I also included other potential streetcar routes and a future West Seattle-Ballard route for context. http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=118219652458657252175.00044b1f67ae1cc2a94ac&ll=47.602922,-122.342377&spn=0.351401,0.891953&t=h&z=11 Sorry, I took the liberty and did it for you. At least for the route on 5th/4th ;-D

I also included other potential streetcar routes and a future West Seattle-Ballard route for context.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=118219652458657252175.00044b1f67ae1cc2a94ac&ll=47.602922,-122.342377&spn=0.351401,0.891953&t=h&z=11

]]> By: AJ http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/09/29/making-the-seattle-streetcar-more-attractive/#comment-11167 AJ Tue, 30 Sep 2008 01:24:54 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1135#comment-11167 Yeah, Portland didn't put its Streetcar through an under-developed neighborhoo-- oh wait. Yeah, Portland didn’t put its Streetcar through an under-developed neighborhoo– oh wait.

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