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	<title>Comments on: ORCA is Coming</title>
	<atom:link href="http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/10/15/orca-is-coming/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/10/15/orca-is-coming/</link>
	<description>Transit in the Greater Seattle Area</description>
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		<title>By: ORCA Privacy - Seattle Transit Blog</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/10/15/orca-is-coming/#comment-90653</link>
		<dc:creator>ORCA Privacy - Seattle Transit Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 19:35:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1181#comment-90653</guid>
		<description>[...] mentioned these issues briefly before, but Mike Lindblom has a really important article in the Times today about privacy and ORCA: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
[...] mentioned these issues briefly before, but Mike Lindblom has a really important article in the Times today about privacy and ORCA: [...]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: ORCA Rollout Begins Monday - Seattle Transit Blog</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/10/15/orca-is-coming/#comment-40404</link>
		<dc:creator>ORCA Rollout Begins Monday - Seattle Transit Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 00:52:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1181#comment-40404</guid>
		<description>[...] speed on  the basics of the ORCA card.  If not, you can read our past coverage here, here, here, here, here, here, and here.  If you don&#8217;t like to click that much, you can read the ORCA press [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
[...] speed on  the basics of the ORCA card.  If not, you can read our past coverage here, here, here, here, here, here, and here.  If you don&#8217;t like to click that much, you can read the ORCA press [...]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: ST Considers Distance-Based Light Rail Fares - Seattle Transit Blog</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/10/15/orca-is-coming/#comment-23551</link>
		<dc:creator>ST Considers Distance-Based Light Rail Fares - Seattle Transit Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jan 2009 00:10:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1181#comment-23551</guid>
		<description>[...] with the upcoming Orca smart card would tap the card to a reader both when entering and leaving a train. Those without cards could [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
[...] with the upcoming Orca smart card would tap the card to a reader both when entering and leaving a train. Those without cards could [...]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: CJEH</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/10/15/orca-is-coming/#comment-22021</link>
		<dc:creator>CJEH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 21:16:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1181#comment-22021</guid>
		<description>In Portland, the fareless square is heavily touted for tourists, and most of the downtown tourist spots have basic maps, with landmarks shown. The one time I used transit in downtown Seattle with a bunch of tourists, it was a PITB</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
In Portland, the fareless square is heavily touted for tourists, and most of the downtown tourist spots have basic maps, with landmarks shown. The one time I used transit in downtown Seattle with a bunch of tourists, it was a PITB<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: January Puget Passes Delayed &#171; Seattle Transit Blog</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/10/15/orca-is-coming/#comment-21970</link>
		<dc:creator>January Puget Passes Delayed &#171; Seattle Transit Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 14:01:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1181#comment-21970</guid>
		<description>[...] other fare news, the visitor pass will cease to exist in January.  With ORCA on its way in Spring, we can expect a major revision of the entire pass [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
[...] other fare news, the visitor pass will cease to exist in January.  With ORCA on its way in Spring, we can expect a major revision of the entire pass [...]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: cjh</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/10/15/orca-is-coming/#comment-13151</link>
		<dc:creator>cjh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 15:49:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1181#comment-13151</guid>
		<description>Pay before boarding and then having your ticket validated (or swiping your card) either at the entrance to the station or actually on the bus/trolley is fairly common in the rest of the world.  It would speed boarding times and allow for aggressive fare enforcement.

I&#039;ve never found using the bus as a tourist to be that horrible, a steeper learning curve than most simple rail systems (less so for extremely complex heavy rail systems like Paris or London) but usually essential to seeing some sights without paying for a taxi.  Unless you have some really tight itinerary, taxis have always seemed ridiculously expensive in comparison to their actual benefit to the tourist experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Pay before boarding and then having your ticket validated (or swiping your card) either at the entrance to the station or actually on the bus/trolley is fairly common in the rest of the world.  It would speed boarding times and allow for aggressive fare enforcement.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve never found using the bus as a tourist to be that horrible, a steeper learning curve than most simple rail systems (less so for extremely complex heavy rail systems like Paris or London) but usually essential to seeing some sights without paying for a taxi.  Unless you have some really tight itinerary, taxis have always seemed ridiculously expensive in comparison to their actual benefit to the tourist experience.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Oran</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/10/15/orca-is-coming/#comment-13110</link>
		<dc:creator>Oran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 00:59:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1181#comment-13110</guid>
		<description>The way ORCA worked in the beta test was you tapped the card only once per boarding which means if your bus crosses zones you might have to tell the driver to set it to the zone you want (it was displayed on the reader&#039;s screen). For trains, you tap as you board and tap when you leave otherwise you&#039;ll be charged the maximum fare.

What&#039;s interesting is that Portland&#039;s Fareless Square is in effect 24-hours every day compared to Seattle&#039;s 5am-7pm RFA. I don&#039;t know about the transient problem in Portland, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
The way ORCA worked in the beta test was you tapped the card only once per boarding which means if your bus crosses zones you might have to tell the driver to set it to the zone you want (it was displayed on the reader&#8217;s screen). For trains, you tap as you board and tap when you leave otherwise you&#8217;ll be charged the maximum fare.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s interesting is that Portland&#8217;s Fareless Square is in effect 24-hours every day compared to Seattle&#8217;s 5am-7pm RFA. I don&#8217;t know about the transient problem in Portland, though.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Oran</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/10/15/orca-is-coming/#comment-13109</link>
		<dc:creator>Oran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 00:44:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1181#comment-13109</guid>
		<description>More about transit fares in London at http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/2930.aspx

What they have is a &#039;Pay Before You Board Area&#039; in central London where there are ticket machines located at every bus stop in the zone.

When I visited Singapore I did the same thing. When I got off the plane at the airport I headed for the MRT airport station, bought a prepaid card loaded with money, went through the gates and on to the train to my hotel in the CBD, which is conveniently linked to the MRT station via underground walkways and malls. Much cheaper and more convenient than taking a cab.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
More about transit fares in London at <a href="http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/2930.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/2930.aspx</a></p>
<p>What they have is a &#8216;Pay Before You Board Area&#8217; in central London where there are ticket machines located at every bus stop in the zone.</p>
<p>When I visited Singapore I did the same thing. When I got off the plane at the airport I headed for the MRT airport station, bought a prepaid card loaded with money, went through the gates and on to the train to my hotel in the CBD, which is conveniently linked to the MRT station via underground walkways and malls. Much cheaper and more convenient than taking a cab.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: DWong</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/10/15/orca-is-coming/#comment-13085</link>
		<dc:creator>DWong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 22:19:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1181#comment-13085</guid>
		<description>I rode the buses in London once last year when I was out late and the Underground stopped running.  It&#039;s not too complicated, but definitely more so than the subway.  You can use the Oyster card on the buses there too; there are multiple readers by the doors inside the bus, so you don&#039;t have to use the front door.  If I recall correctly, you had to use the front door when paying cash fares.</description>
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I rode the buses in London once last year when I was out late and the Underground stopped running.  It&#8217;s not too complicated, but definitely more so than the subway.  You can use the Oyster card on the buses there too; there are multiple readers by the doors inside the bus, so you don&#8217;t have to use the front door.  If I recall correctly, you had to use the front door when paying cash fares.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: litlnemo</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/10/15/orca-is-coming/#comment-13079</link>
		<dc:creator>litlnemo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 21:24:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1181#comment-13079</guid>
		<description>Yes, I also generally avoid buses when I am a tourist. Buses are much more confusing and annoying when you don&#039;t already know the area.

Now, Ben said &quot;I’ll support it if we start finding that most users have orca cards&quot; -- but the point of charging cash users more is to encourage them to &lt;em&gt;get&lt;/em&gt; the cards. In London, we got Oyster cards with a one-week Zone 1 and 2 pass, which was relatively inexpensive, and then we rode the Tube all over the place without a care. It was great, and the ORCA could be like that.

However, what would make it work would be if the cards are easily bought and topped-up. You have to have tons of places to get them (in London, you can buy them at the tube stations at least, and that alone makes quite a few places where they can be bought), and topping them up has to be dead easy. You should be able to do it online, in lots of shops, etc.

So even as tourists, we were able to just walk into a random Tube station, get an Oyster card, and if we needed to add a day or two to the card at the end of our stay, or just a couple of trips, we could do that just about anywhere. It was quite accessible and we didn&#039;t find it to be a problem. 

We didn&#039;t ride the buses, though, so I don&#039;t know how it works there -- but we did see signs that said all tickets for riding the bus must be bought &lt;em&gt;outside&lt;/em&gt; the bus, so boarding must be pretty quick. I think they may have had ticket machines outside the stops, though I don&#039;t know if they are outside every stop.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Yes, I also generally avoid buses when I am a tourist. Buses are much more confusing and annoying when you don&#8217;t already know the area.</p>
<p>Now, Ben said &#8220;I’ll support it if we start finding that most users have orca cards&#8221; &#8212; but the point of charging cash users more is to encourage them to <em>get</em> the cards. In London, we got Oyster cards with a one-week Zone 1 and 2 pass, which was relatively inexpensive, and then we rode the Tube all over the place without a care. It was great, and the ORCA could be like that.</p>
<p>However, what would make it work would be if the cards are easily bought and topped-up. You have to have tons of places to get them (in London, you can buy them at the tube stations at least, and that alone makes quite a few places where they can be bought), and topping them up has to be dead easy. You should be able to do it online, in lots of shops, etc.</p>
<p>So even as tourists, we were able to just walk into a random Tube station, get an Oyster card, and if we needed to add a day or two to the card at the end of our stay, or just a couple of trips, we could do that just about anywhere. It was quite accessible and we didn&#8217;t find it to be a problem. </p>
<p>We didn&#8217;t ride the buses, though, so I don&#8217;t know how it works there &#8212; but we did see signs that said all tickets for riding the bus must be bought <em>outside</em> the bus, so boarding must be pretty quick. I think they may have had ticket machines outside the stops, though I don&#8217;t know if they are outside every stop.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Oran</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/10/15/orca-is-coming/#comment-13077</link>
		<dc:creator>Oran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 21:07:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1181#comment-13077</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve read somewhere that they designed the system is being designed to be expandable to any public transit agency in Washington, Oregon and Idaho (Why not throw in TransLink in BC, too), and to be used in non-transit applications such as parking and toll payment.

That would be the ultimate regional transit card with a reach similar to how the E-ZPass is widely used for tolls on the East Coast.</description>
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I&#8217;ve read somewhere that they designed the system is being designed to be expandable to any public transit agency in Washington, Oregon and Idaho (Why not throw in TransLink in BC, too), and to be used in non-transit applications such as parking and toll payment.</p>
<p>That would be the ultimate regional transit card with a reach similar to how the E-ZPass is widely used for tolls on the East Coast.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Oran</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/10/15/orca-is-coming/#comment-13075</link>
		<dc:creator>Oran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 20:53:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1181#comment-13075</guid>
		<description>I was on the UW UPASS/ORCA beta test and that was done in late 2006.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I was on the UW UPASS/ORCA beta test and that was done in late 2006.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: justin</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/10/15/orca-is-coming/#comment-13072</link>
		<dc:creator>justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 20:42:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1181#comment-13072</guid>
		<description>True, but I don&#039;t see many tourists on the bus...do you guys?  I&#039;ve seen tourists on the SLUT...

Frankly when I&#039;m in a new town I will take trains, trolleys, taxis, tubes etc, over any bus.  Our buses don&#039;t even have maps with stops posted at the stop or in the bus, most don&#039;t call out stops...  The few times I have ridden in other cities it&#039;s a royal PITA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
True, but I don&#8217;t see many tourists on the bus&#8230;do you guys?  I&#8217;ve seen tourists on the SLUT&#8230;</p>
<p>Frankly when I&#8217;m in a new town I will take trains, trolleys, taxis, tubes etc, over any bus.  Our buses don&#8217;t even have maps with stops posted at the stop or in the bus, most don&#8217;t call out stops&#8230;  The few times I have ridden in other cities it&#8217;s a royal PITA.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/10/15/orca-is-coming/#comment-13066</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 20:03:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1181#comment-13066</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a huge if. I&#039;ll support it if we start finding that most users have orca cards - but the thing is, downtown is where our tourists are. I don&#039;t want first time users being the only ones hit with a fare - it becomes a barrier to use, it makes people less likely to ride a second time.</description>
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That&#8217;s a huge if. I&#8217;ll support it if we start finding that most users have orca cards &#8211; but the thing is, downtown is where our tourists are. I don&#8217;t want first time users being the only ones hit with a fare &#8211; it becomes a barrier to use, it makes people less likely to ride a second time.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/10/15/orca-is-coming/#comment-13065</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 20:00:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1181#comment-13065</guid>
		<description>The transient issue has been reduced somewhat by the new Denny housing, and if we build more projects to house people who aren&#039;t capable of taking care of themselves, we&#039;ll do even better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
The transient issue has been reduced somewhat by the new Denny housing, and if we build more projects to house people who aren&#8217;t capable of taking care of themselves, we&#8217;ll do even better.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: justin</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/10/15/orca-is-coming/#comment-13056</link>
		<dc:creator>justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 18:38:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1181#comment-13056</guid>
		<description>&quot;The free ride zone is done for speed&quot;

If most people have orca cards this is a non issue.  Charge much more for the difference and even more people will get one.  London charges much more for cash fares and even as a tourist for a week it was worth it to get an pass.  It really takes going to Europe to see how terrible our system is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
&#8220;The free ride zone is done for speed&#8221;</p>
<p>If most people have orca cards this is a non issue.  Charge much more for the difference and even more people will get one.  London charges much more for cash fares and even as a tourist for a week it was worth it to get an pass.  It really takes going to Europe to see how terrible our system is.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/10/15/orca-is-coming/#comment-13051</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 18:13:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1181#comment-13051</guid>
		<description>I actually have the defcon slides. I don&#039;t think it&#039;s &#039;easy&#039; enough to cheat that more than a dozen computer geeks will do it. Sure, you&#039;ll get people selling fake cards every once in a while, but the loss there is still NOWHERE near the cost of a new system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I actually have the defcon slides. I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s &#8216;easy&#8217; enough to cheat that more than a dozen computer geeks will do it. Sure, you&#8217;ll get people selling fake cards every once in a while, but the loss there is still NOWHERE near the cost of a new system.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: John Jensen</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/10/15/orca-is-coming/#comment-13049</link>
		<dc:creator>John Jensen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 18:00:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1181#comment-13049</guid>
		<description>The free ride zone is done for speed, so charging anything would harm that. I think the free ride has some problems -- way too many transients, for one -- but by and large is a net benefit. I would cut the free ride on weekend though. However, I honestly don&#039;t get a lot of the free ride hate.

In terms of doubling the fare for those without an ORCA card... I could see charging a quarter more (to encourage faster boarding), but let&#039;s not punish people too much. Those without a card are much more likely to be less frequent transit riders or those who are less fortunate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
The free ride zone is done for speed, so charging anything would harm that. I think the free ride has some problems &#8212; way too many transients, for one &#8212; but by and large is a net benefit. I would cut the free ride on weekend though. However, I honestly don&#8217;t get a lot of the free ride hate.</p>
<p>In terms of doubling the fare for those without an ORCA card&#8230; I could see charging a quarter more (to encourage faster boarding), but let&#8217;s not punish people too much. Those without a card are much more likely to be less frequent transit riders or those who are less fortunate.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/10/15/orca-is-coming/#comment-13048</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 17:59:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1181#comment-13048</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve seen people on the pilot program using it (although I do believe the pilot program is over). So you can see it if you ride buses regularly enough. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I&#8217;ve seen people on the pilot program using it (although I do believe the pilot program is over). So you can see it if you ride buses regularly enough. :)<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/10/15/orca-is-coming/#comment-13043</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 17:17:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1181#comment-13043</guid>
		<description>Amtrak is a pretty different animal, because they have no automated ticketing system.</description>
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Amtrak is a pretty different animal, because they have no automated ticketing system.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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