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	<title>Comments on: A Mandate</title>
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	<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/05/a-mandate/</link>
	<description>Transit in the Greater Seattle Area</description>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/05/a-mandate/#comment-16737</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 03:12:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1246#comment-16737</guid>
		<description>I thought the opening of the Sounder extension to Lakewood will allow Amtrak to completely bypass the Nelson Bennett tunnel? Assuming of course funding is available for the necessary track work from Lakewood to Nisqually. From my understanding this will happen much sooner than the widening the Nelson Bennett and cost far less.</description>
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I thought the opening of the Sounder extension to Lakewood will allow Amtrak to completely bypass the Nelson Bennett tunnel? Assuming of course funding is available for the necessary track work from Lakewood to Nisqually. From my understanding this will happen much sooner than the widening the Nelson Bennett and cost far less.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: zilfondel</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/05/a-mandate/#comment-16729</link>
		<dc:creator>zilfondel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 02:34:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1246#comment-16729</guid>
		<description>From the PDF linked above, this is rather promising:

&lt;i&gt;&quot;This type of project would add another main line track alongside the existing track(s). &lt;/i&gt;&lt;b&gt;The rail corridor will include about 185 miles of third main track and about forty-six miles of fourth main track that will be used exclusively by Amtrak Cascades&lt;i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; trains and other passenger rail trains. There will also be about twenty-four miles of third main track, and two miles of fourth and fifth main tracks that will beused by any traffic as necessary.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
From the PDF linked above, this is rather promising:</p>
<p><i>&#8220;This type of project would add another main line track alongside the existing track(s). </i><b>The rail corridor will include about 185 miles of third main track and about forty-six miles of fourth main track that will be used exclusively by Amtrak Cascades<i></i></b> trains and other passenger rail trains. There will also be about twenty-four miles of third main track, and two miles of fourth and fifth main tracks that will beused by any traffic as necessary.&#8221;<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: zilfondel</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/05/a-mandate/#comment-16728</link>
		<dc:creator>zilfondel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 02:27:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1246#comment-16728</guid>
		<description>^ Yes.  And I think its in the PDF... they are building the cutoff for the Lakewood Sounder line.  Luckily, the Amtrak Cascades has enough HP to make the grade, although from what I&#039;ve read, the Amtrak Coast Starlight won&#039;t be able to use it.

http://www.soundtransit.org/x1863.xml</description>
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^ Yes.  And I think its in the PDF&#8230; they are building the cutoff for the Lakewood Sounder line.  Luckily, the Amtrak Cascades has enough HP to make the grade, although from what I&#8217;ve read, the Amtrak Coast Starlight won&#8217;t be able to use it.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.soundtransit.org/x1863.xml" rel="nofollow">http://www.soundtransit.org/x1863.xml</a><!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: serial catowner</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/05/a-mandate/#comment-16686</link>
		<dc:creator>serial catowner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 23:25:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1246#comment-16686</guid>
		<description>Glad to hear the FRA speed limits have been raised.

I don&#039;t know where the Nelson Bennett tunnel is, but I understand Amtrak-WSDOT will be building a cutoff across Tacoma so the train will no longer go through Point Defiance- I wonder if this might also avoid the tunnel?</description>
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Glad to hear the FRA speed limits have been raised.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know where the Nelson Bennett tunnel is, but I understand Amtrak-WSDOT will be building a cutoff across Tacoma so the train will no longer go through Point Defiance- I wonder if this might also avoid the tunnel?<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: cjh</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/05/a-mandate/#comment-16655</link>
		<dc:creator>cjh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 18:39:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1246#comment-16655</guid>
		<description>By lackadaisical, I meant that they take their sweet time in doing them rather than they were less stringent.  :)</description>
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By lackadaisical, I meant that they take their sweet time in doing them rather than they were less stringent.  :)<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Brian Bundridge</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/05/a-mandate/#comment-16652</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Bundridge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 18:22:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1246#comment-16652</guid>
		<description>SC,

No violating rules at all, that would go against my GCOR =P

Per the FRA, passenger trains are allowed up to 125mph as long as the corridor is &quot;sealed&quot;. This means that all grade crossings must be completely gated in all directions of travel. North Carolina has been using this system for some time now as a trial with great success. Anything above 125mph must be completely grade separated. 

http://www.fra.dot.gov/us/content/217

Furthermore - King Street Station to Tukwila is currently triple-track main line, double track from Tukwila to Tacoma, triple track through Tacoma, double track to Nelson Bennett tunnel, single track through the tunnel, back to double track to Portland Union Station. Nelson Bennett tunnel is the bottle neck and the reason why Amtrak Cascades needs to go via Point Defiance. The only way to eliminate that would be a very costly removal of the Nelson Bennett tunnel and some how widen the tunnel which will allow high-wide, double stack, autoracks, etc through the tunnel. The tunnel at one point used to be double tracked until the introduction of container trains, high-wides cars and fuselages for Boeing. There is a plan to widen this section but it will be another 15-20 years before this happens.

As for the high-speed passing tracks for passenger trains, I can see this happening but as development occurs, that space won&#039;t be around much longer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
SC,</p>
<p>No violating rules at all, that would go against my GCOR =P</p>
<p>Per the FRA, passenger trains are allowed up to 125mph as long as the corridor is &#8220;sealed&#8221;. This means that all grade crossings must be completely gated in all directions of travel. North Carolina has been using this system for some time now as a trial with great success. Anything above 125mph must be completely grade separated. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.fra.dot.gov/us/content/217" rel="nofollow">http://www.fra.dot.gov/us/content/217</a></p>
<p>Furthermore &#8211; King Street Station to Tukwila is currently triple-track main line, double track from Tukwila to Tacoma, triple track through Tacoma, double track to Nelson Bennett tunnel, single track through the tunnel, back to double track to Portland Union Station. Nelson Bennett tunnel is the bottle neck and the reason why Amtrak Cascades needs to go via Point Defiance. The only way to eliminate that would be a very costly removal of the Nelson Bennett tunnel and some how widen the tunnel which will allow high-wide, double stack, autoracks, etc through the tunnel. The tunnel at one point used to be double tracked until the introduction of container trains, high-wides cars and fuselages for Boeing. There is a plan to widen this section but it will be another 15-20 years before this happens.</p>
<p>As for the high-speed passing tracks for passenger trains, I can see this happening but as development occurs, that space won&#8217;t be around much longer.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: serial catowner</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/05/a-mandate/#comment-16648</link>
		<dc:creator>serial catowner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 17:24:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1246#comment-16648</guid>
		<description>As I recall, you have Federal regulations about maximum speed, and from what I can see, any time you want to exceed Federal regulations, you&#039;re definitely falling outside of the old 80-20 rule.

Grade separation is something that needs to be pushed constantly because it intermeshes with improvements at all levels of government.  For example, cities build and upgrade to &quot;urban arterial&quot; roadbuilding standards because that makes them eligible for state funding in part.  Grade separation affects passenger and freight operations so UP and BNSF have the same incentives as Amtrak and WSDOT to always work on this.

Double-tracking for BNSF from Seattle to Portland shouldn&#039;t be optional.  Maybe this should take the form of progressively adding stretches of Amtrak high-speed passenger-only alignment and signaling.

The whole border situation has been for years a hopeless boondoggle, a toxic mix of untouchable bureaucracy exercising unlimited powers and funded by fear. No big surprise that actual terrorists, drug smugglers, and illegal immigrants don&#039;t seem to have as much trouble as the average citizen in getting past the border.  Nothing but a wholesale reform will clear this up. 

Seems to me the overall goal is clear- reduce regional dependence on automobiles and commuter flights by upgrading rail service in this corridor.  You need a clear overall goal, but most of the solutions can be brought online in incremental segments.</description>
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As I recall, you have Federal regulations about maximum speed, and from what I can see, any time you want to exceed Federal regulations, you&#8217;re definitely falling outside of the old 80-20 rule.</p>
<p>Grade separation is something that needs to be pushed constantly because it intermeshes with improvements at all levels of government.  For example, cities build and upgrade to &#8220;urban arterial&#8221; roadbuilding standards because that makes them eligible for state funding in part.  Grade separation affects passenger and freight operations so UP and BNSF have the same incentives as Amtrak and WSDOT to always work on this.</p>
<p>Double-tracking for BNSF from Seattle to Portland shouldn&#8217;t be optional.  Maybe this should take the form of progressively adding stretches of Amtrak high-speed passenger-only alignment and signaling.</p>
<p>The whole border situation has been for years a hopeless boondoggle, a toxic mix of untouchable bureaucracy exercising unlimited powers and funded by fear. No big surprise that actual terrorists, drug smugglers, and illegal immigrants don&#8217;t seem to have as much trouble as the average citizen in getting past the border.  Nothing but a wholesale reform will clear this up. </p>
<p>Seems to me the overall goal is clear- reduce regional dependence on automobiles and commuter flights by upgrading rail service in this corridor.  You need a clear overall goal, but most of the solutions can be brought online in incremental segments.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: lrk</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/05/a-mandate/#comment-16647</link>
		<dc:creator>lrk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 17:21:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1246#comment-16647</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to see the introduction of &quot;Limited&quot; runs in the morning and evening. Bypass Kelso, Chelais/Centralia, Olympia and Tukwila. And then if that pans out, introduce an &quot;Express&quot; service that is Seattle-Portland direct.

All that likely needs more capacity on the existing lines. Hopefully the &quot;stimulus&quot; package will include money for the identified HSR corridors to implement projects.</description>
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I&#8217;d like to see the introduction of &#8220;Limited&#8221; runs in the morning and evening. Bypass Kelso, Chelais/Centralia, Olympia and Tukwila. And then if that pans out, introduce an &#8220;Express&#8221; service that is Seattle-Portland direct.</p>
<p>All that likely needs more capacity on the existing lines. Hopefully the &#8220;stimulus&#8221; package will include money for the identified HSR corridors to implement projects.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: lrk</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/05/a-mandate/#comment-16645</link>
		<dc:creator>lrk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 16:53:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1246#comment-16645</guid>
		<description>They are sharing the same track, but it is not the dedicated TGV line. The TGV is running on &#039;normal&#039; track.

Regarding equipment: Federal Railroad Admin. (FRA) has regulations on crash-worthiness which are more stringent than those used in Europe. Thus you can&#039;t just bring over a trainset from Europe (or Asia) and use it on our rail lines. 

According to a paper by the WashDOT rail people (sorry, no link or title available now), the existing Talgo equipment is limited by FRA to 79mph even if it is designed for operation up to 125mph.</description>
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They are sharing the same track, but it is not the dedicated TGV line. The TGV is running on &#8216;normal&#8217; track.</p>
<p>Regarding equipment: Federal Railroad Admin. (FRA) has regulations on crash-worthiness which are more stringent than those used in Europe. Thus you can&#8217;t just bring over a trainset from Europe (or Asia) and use it on our rail lines. </p>
<p>According to a paper by the WashDOT rail people (sorry, no link or title available now), the existing Talgo equipment is limited by FRA to 79mph even if it is designed for operation up to 125mph.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Brian Bundridge</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/05/a-mandate/#comment-16620</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Bundridge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 13:30:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1246#comment-16620</guid>
		<description>Well there is a difficult thing about having HSR here - It just wouldn&#039;t work in Western Washington because of the density here. Eastern Washington would be an excellent place, especially if the old Milwaukee Road right of way was to be used. It&#039;s straight as an arrow and barely has any curves to it until it reaches the Cascades or reaches the Cheney/Spokane area. Perfect for HSR.

As you&#039;ll read in the long range plan, 110mph will be the max with 125mph not having enough time reduction to justify the higher cost of the project.

Maybe an STB meetup to discuss this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Well there is a difficult thing about having HSR here &#8211; It just wouldn&#8217;t work in Western Washington because of the density here. Eastern Washington would be an excellent place, especially if the old Milwaukee Road right of way was to be used. It&#8217;s straight as an arrow and barely has any curves to it until it reaches the Cascades or reaches the Cheney/Spokane area. Perfect for HSR.</p>
<p>As you&#8217;ll read in the long range plan, 110mph will be the max with 125mph not having enough time reduction to justify the higher cost of the project.</p>
<p>Maybe an STB meetup to discuss this?<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Matt the Engineer</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/05/a-mandate/#comment-16553</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt the Engineer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 01:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1246#comment-16553</guid>
		<description>And some day connect to California.  Sounds good to me.</description>
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And some day connect to California.  Sounds good to me.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: cjh</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/05/a-mandate/#comment-16549</link>
		<dc:creator>cjh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 01:23:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1246#comment-16549</guid>
		<description>Interesting.  

Are they sharing track (and not just right of way)?  It&#039;s hard to tell but it looks like they are and my understanding is that it is a very unusual occurrence.  That&#039;s near one of the Pyrennes rail tunnels isn&#039;t it?  Speeds do seem reduced in that first part of the video from the TGV standard  - &quot;only&quot; 120 km/h perhaps (which is the French freight speed limit)?    That would be our 79 mph maximum while sharing with freight, right there. ;)

Anyhow, there&#039;s nothing wrong with having federal safety agencies run crash tests (they do it for cars, planes, etc that have already passed Japanese and German safety testing) except that the relevant agencies are pretty lackadaisical about doing it.</description>
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Interesting.  </p>
<p>Are they sharing track (and not just right of way)?  It&#8217;s hard to tell but it looks like they are and my understanding is that it is a very unusual occurrence.  That&#8217;s near one of the Pyrennes rail tunnels isn&#8217;t it?  Speeds do seem reduced in that first part of the video from the TGV standard  &#8211; &#8220;only&#8221; 120 km/h perhaps (which is the French freight speed limit)?    That would be our 79 mph maximum while sharing with freight, right there. ;)</p>
<p>Anyhow, there&#8217;s nothing wrong with having federal safety agencies run crash tests (they do it for cars, planes, etc that have already passed Japanese and German safety testing) except that the relevant agencies are pretty lackadaisical about doing it.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: alexjonlin</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/05/a-mandate/#comment-16532</link>
		<dc:creator>alexjonlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2008 23:49:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1246#comment-16532</guid>
		<description>How about a NWHSR Initiative? We could have SW BC, the whole Washington, and Western Oregon, and build a Cascades route and a Seattle-Spokane route</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
How about a NWHSR Initiative? We could have SW BC, the whole Washington, and Western Oregon, and build a Cascades route and a Seattle-Spokane route<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/05/a-mandate/#comment-16529</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2008 23:41:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1246#comment-16529</guid>
		<description>I actually wrote the post as just &#039;mandate&#039;, Andrew changed it for clarity, and then changed it back when he realized what I meant. ;)

This was our first sacrifice. There will be more, and when we&#039;ve built a stronger country again, your son will be there to live in it.

And congratulations. :)</description>
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I actually wrote the post as just &#8216;mandate&#8217;, Andrew changed it for clarity, and then changed it back when he realized what I meant. ;)</p>
<p>This was our first sacrifice. There will be more, and when we&#8217;ve built a stronger country again, your son will be there to live in it.</p>
<p>And congratulations. :)<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/05/a-mandate/#comment-16527</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2008 23:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1246#comment-16527</guid>
		<description>Um... Sidewalks in Portland, Tacoma, Seattle, and Vancouver: Check. Local bus AND rail in all four cities: Check.</description>
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Um&#8230; Sidewalks in Portland, Tacoma, Seattle, and Vancouver: Check. Local bus AND rail in all four cities: Check.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/05/a-mandate/#comment-16526</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2008 23:34:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1246#comment-16526</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not like the supporters choose the price tag.</description>
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It&#8217;s not like the supporters choose the price tag.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Out-Voted</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/05/a-mandate/#comment-16521</link>
		<dc:creator>Out-Voted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2008 22:48:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1246#comment-16521</guid>
		<description>Congratulations to all the supporters of Prop 1.  While I didn&#039;t agree with it&#039;s relatively high cost per mile price tag, or the extended time frame for service to begin, it&#039;s clear the voters saw this as a requirement for a healthy Puget Sound.  You won a great victory last night, and the region will be better off for it in years to come. Now it&#039;s time to move on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Congratulations to all the supporters of Prop 1.  While I didn&#8217;t agree with it&#8217;s relatively high cost per mile price tag, or the extended time frame for service to begin, it&#8217;s clear the voters saw this as a requirement for a healthy Puget Sound.  You won a great victory last night, and the region will be better off for it in years to come. Now it&#8217;s time to move on.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: John Jensen</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/05/a-mandate/#comment-16516</link>
		<dc:creator>John Jensen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2008 21:33:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1246#comment-16516</guid>
		<description>I think when you&#039;re building in very heavily developed areas, like Seattle or Bellevue, that the cost of rail is pretty expensive. But past this plan -- ST2 -- I can&#039;t imagine the price being as high for expansions.</description>
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I think when you&#8217;re building in very heavily developed areas, like Seattle or Bellevue, that the cost of rail is pretty expensive. But past this plan &#8212; ST2 &#8212; I can&#8217;t imagine the price being as high for expansions.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Brian Bundridge</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/05/a-mandate/#comment-16512</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Bundridge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2008 20:43:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1246#comment-16512</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll answer this question more in-depth later =)

But in the meantime - Ronald has a great video of freight and passenger trains working together 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYNd0g-mwdY&amp;feature=related</description>
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I&#8217;ll answer this question more in-depth later =)</p>
<p>But in the meantime &#8211; Ronald has a great video of freight and passenger trains working together </p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYNd0g-mwdY&#038;feature=related" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYNd0g-mwdY&#038;feature=related</a><!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: cjh</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/05/a-mandate/#comment-16510</link>
		<dc:creator>cjh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2008 20:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1246#comment-16510</guid>
		<description>Underfunding generally, I&#039;d say.  Also there&#039;s the fact that it is currently undergoing a long overdue renovation.  And since the renovation is long overdue, it&#039;s a bit more disruptive than usual.

LAX is also pretty hemmed in.  There&#039;s the ocean on one side and lots and lots and lots of housing, offices, etc around it (at pretty good density levels for SoCal).  It&#039;s actually surprising how little industrial land there is around it.  Surprised me anyhow!</description>
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Underfunding generally, I&#8217;d say.  Also there&#8217;s the fact that it is currently undergoing a long overdue renovation.  And since the renovation is long overdue, it&#8217;s a bit more disruptive than usual.</p>
<p>LAX is also pretty hemmed in.  There&#8217;s the ocean on one side and lots and lots and lots of housing, offices, etc around it (at pretty good density levels for SoCal).  It&#8217;s actually surprising how little industrial land there is around it.  Surprised me anyhow!<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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