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	<title>Comments on: Viaduct Replacement Options</title>
	<atom:link href="http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/14/viaduct-replacement-options/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/14/viaduct-replacement-options/</link>
	<description>Transit in the Greater Seattle Area</description>
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		<title>By: Seattle Transit Blog &#187; Seattle Transit Blog</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/14/viaduct-replacement-options/#comment-20734</link>
		<dc:creator>Seattle Transit Blog &#187; Seattle Transit Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 18:01:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1285#comment-20734</guid>
		<description>[...] Viaduct Replacement Options [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
[...] Viaduct Replacement Options [...]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Nathanael</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/14/viaduct-replacement-options/#comment-19657</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathanael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 06:31:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1285#comment-19657</guid>
		<description>Streetcars can be faster than buses if they are (1) off-street and (2) off-street.  It&#039;s mostly about getting them out of traffic.  

Theoretically buses can have dedicated lanes too, but they have to be wider.

But good streetcars also have better acceleration and deceleration than regular buses (though not than trolleybuses).  All of these advantages are lost with street running, of course.</description>
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Streetcars can be faster than buses if they are (1) off-street and (2) off-street.  It&#8217;s mostly about getting them out of traffic.  </p>
<p>Theoretically buses can have dedicated lanes too, but they have to be wider.</p>
<p>But good streetcars also have better acceleration and deceleration than regular buses (though not than trolleybuses).  All of these advantages are lost with street running, of course.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Al</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/14/viaduct-replacement-options/#comment-18595</link>
		<dc:creator>Al</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:16:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1285#comment-18595</guid>
		<description>Ok, West Seattle is not far from the city, it just seems like it because it hasn&#039;t been subject to many transit improvements (new routes, new transit options, more frequent and legitimately needed bus service, such as adding service frequency to route 21).  It only takes 10 minutes by auto (not rush hour) to get downtown or back.  Of course, this is by viaduct.  If buses had dedicated lanes (completely feasible BTW, if the city and Metro had the guts to implement this), then commuting would be even easier (no more rush hour backup, no more game day backup, no more viaduct traffic accident backup).  It takes me only about 30-40 mintues by bicycle and the bus, due to transfers and traffic backups, and consistent waiting for the next bus to show up can often take 1.5 hours (the 21 at off-peak hours, and sometimes peak).

I&#039;m glad that it looks like the foot ferry will have additional funding to continue, possibly year round, very important for many West Seattleites, hopefully with an expanded shuttle service.  I&#039;m not moving due east, same distance away from the city.  I can get around quite easily thank you...I&#039;m just advocating better transit options for a forgotton and misunderstood section of the city.</description>
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Ok, West Seattle is not far from the city, it just seems like it because it hasn&#8217;t been subject to many transit improvements (new routes, new transit options, more frequent and legitimately needed bus service, such as adding service frequency to route 21).  It only takes 10 minutes by auto (not rush hour) to get downtown or back.  Of course, this is by viaduct.  If buses had dedicated lanes (completely feasible BTW, if the city and Metro had the guts to implement this), then commuting would be even easier (no more rush hour backup, no more game day backup, no more viaduct traffic accident backup).  It takes me only about 30-40 mintues by bicycle and the bus, due to transfers and traffic backups, and consistent waiting for the next bus to show up can often take 1.5 hours (the 21 at off-peak hours, and sometimes peak).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad that it looks like the foot ferry will have additional funding to continue, possibly year round, very important for many West Seattleites, hopefully with an expanded shuttle service.  I&#8217;m not moving due east, same distance away from the city.  I can get around quite easily thank you&#8230;I&#8217;m just advocating better transit options for a forgotton and misunderstood section of the city.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: leero</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/14/viaduct-replacement-options/#comment-18449</link>
		<dc:creator>leero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 22:09:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1285#comment-18449</guid>
		<description>The piece of the puzzle that no one has mentioned yet is freight.  In my job I hear a lot about how critical the viaduct is for moving freight via trucks in and out of our two industrial areas.  There&#039;s no doubt some grandstanding involved, but I don&#039;t think we want to hamper freight movement if we don&#039;t have to.

I was always a surface street supporter, until it was pointed out that truck traffic from the viaduct would then be rumbling through downtown, which seems counter to our goals for a ped-friendly, kid-friendly center city.

From this standpoint, a tunnel seems like the best option, since anything elevated would be adding insult to our already-decades-long injury.</description>
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The piece of the puzzle that no one has mentioned yet is freight.  In my job I hear a lot about how critical the viaduct is for moving freight via trucks in and out of our two industrial areas.  There&#8217;s no doubt some grandstanding involved, but I don&#8217;t think we want to hamper freight movement if we don&#8217;t have to.</p>
<p>I was always a surface street supporter, until it was pointed out that truck traffic from the viaduct would then be rumbling through downtown, which seems counter to our goals for a ped-friendly, kid-friendly center city.</p>
<p>From this standpoint, a tunnel seems like the best option, since anything elevated would be adding insult to our already-decades-long injury.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: John Jensen</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/14/viaduct-replacement-options/#comment-18218</link>
		<dc:creator>John Jensen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 08:47:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1285#comment-18218</guid>
		<description>West Seattle should be our focus for rail with the next ST package, for the exact reason Martin describes. So close, yet so very constrained in terms of capacity. Light rail has the capability to transform West Seattle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
West Seattle should be our focus for rail with the next ST package, for the exact reason Martin describes. So close, yet so very constrained in terms of capacity. Light rail has the capability to transform West Seattle.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: John Jensen</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/14/viaduct-replacement-options/#comment-18217</link>
		<dc:creator>John Jensen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 08:41:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1285#comment-18217</guid>
		<description>Eric L, it&#039;s new asphalt that we have to pay for. It&#039;s not additional capacity, you&#039;re right, but it&#039;ll all work out fine and life will go on. A 20 minute commute will turn into a 30 minute commute, maybe on a bus. People will shift their patterns, others will move, and we&#039;ll invest more in transit rather than roads.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Eric L, it&#8217;s new asphalt that we have to pay for. It&#8217;s not additional capacity, you&#8217;re right, but it&#8217;ll all work out fine and life will go on. A 20 minute commute will turn into a 30 minute commute, maybe on a bus. People will shift their patterns, others will move, and we&#8217;ll invest more in transit rather than roads.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Eric L</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/14/viaduct-replacement-options/#comment-18216</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 08:31:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1285#comment-18216</guid>
		<description>Though strictly speaking, it isn&#039;t new highway capacity and it&#039;s smaller than the existing viaduct.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Though strictly speaking, it isn&#8217;t new highway capacity and it&#8217;s smaller than the existing viaduct.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/14/viaduct-replacement-options/#comment-18194</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 03:02:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1285#comment-18194</guid>
		<description>My sympathies as well, and I agree that we really need to beef up transit to West Seattle.  However, on the subject of moving closer to the city - have you looked at Beacon Hill?  The hill is sunny, parts have excellent views, and access is good.  Other than the recently &quot;flipped&quot; houses that sold for a fortune at the top of the boom, there is plenty of affordable product there.  Unless you live in southeast West Seattle, you ought to not get sticker shock...</description>
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My sympathies as well, and I agree that we really need to beef up transit to West Seattle.  However, on the subject of moving closer to the city &#8211; have you looked at Beacon Hill?  The hill is sunny, parts have excellent views, and access is good.  Other than the recently &#8220;flipped&#8221; houses that sold for a fortune at the top of the boom, there is plenty of affordable product there.  Unless you live in southeast West Seattle, you ought to not get sticker shock&#8230;<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: John Jensen</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/14/viaduct-replacement-options/#comment-18184</link>
		<dc:creator>John Jensen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 02:18:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1285#comment-18184</guid>
		<description>Dollar amounts will come next month.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Dollar amounts will come next month.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: John Miller</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/14/viaduct-replacement-options/#comment-18175</link>
		<dc:creator>John Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 01:19:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1285#comment-18175</guid>
		<description>Is there a dollar amount to these options?  I can probably guess, but I like to have actual figures with which to work with.  

Like others, I like the tunnel option the best, but I recognize it is too expensive (unless, of course, the federal government decides to make a massive investment in highway construction funds for jobs-creation and economic stimulus purposes), so options A and B are my next favorites.</description>
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Is there a dollar amount to these options?  I can probably guess, but I like to have actual figures with which to work with.  </p>
<p>Like others, I like the tunnel option the best, but I recognize it is too expensive (unless, of course, the federal government decides to make a massive investment in highway construction funds for jobs-creation and economic stimulus purposes), so options A and B are my next favorites.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Matt the Engineer</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/14/viaduct-replacement-options/#comment-18139</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt the Engineer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:26:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1285#comment-18139</guid>
		<description>Never mind.  I was off by a street.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Never mind.  I was off by a street.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: jcricket</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/14/viaduct-replacement-options/#comment-18116</link>
		<dc:creator>jcricket</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Nov 2008 17:16:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1285#comment-18116</guid>
		<description>B, B, B, B.

I actually liked the tunnel options the best, but they are the most expensive, and have just no chance of getting built. The elevated options are bad for numerous reasons, not the least of which is they will take a long time to build and everyone will be b*tching about not having their viaduct.

The street options + transit are the least expensive, fastest (almost 1/2 the time or better) and have the least risk. I know &quot;A&quot; is the cheapest, but politically speaking, I think &quot;B&quot; is a better sell. Hard to just say &quot;demand management&quot; without convincingly offering alternatives. I think B is the best balance of cars, tourists, businesses, open space, transit, etc.

You could tear stuff down and rebuild the surface roadway and all connectors in 3 years (faster if we do big public works style stuff because of our big recession). In the same time it&#039;d be easy to do more buses and work on the streetcar/I5 improvements.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
B, B, B, B.</p>
<p>I actually liked the tunnel options the best, but they are the most expensive, and have just no chance of getting built. The elevated options are bad for numerous reasons, not the least of which is they will take a long time to build and everyone will be b*tching about not having their viaduct.</p>
<p>The street options + transit are the least expensive, fastest (almost 1/2 the time or better) and have the least risk. I know &#8220;A&#8221; is the cheapest, but politically speaking, I think &#8220;B&#8221; is a better sell. Hard to just say &#8220;demand management&#8221; without convincingly offering alternatives. I think B is the best balance of cars, tourists, businesses, open space, transit, etc.</p>
<p>You could tear stuff down and rebuild the surface roadway and all connectors in 3 years (faster if we do big public works style stuff because of our big recession). In the same time it&#8217;d be easy to do more buses and work on the streetcar/I5 improvements.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Matt the Engineer</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/14/viaduct-replacement-options/#comment-18100</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt the Engineer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Nov 2008 15:06:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1285#comment-18100</guid>
		<description>The underpass on the PDF looks like it&#039;s in the wrong place.</description>
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The underpass on the PDF looks like it&#8217;s in the wrong place.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: KeithR</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/14/viaduct-replacement-options/#comment-18015</link>
		<dc:creator>KeithR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Nov 2008 03:20:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1285#comment-18015</guid>
		<description>Option C works at the Market by using an underpass.  The PDF shows it.  

I put an Excel spreadsheet comparing the options up here: &lt;a href=&quot;http://cid-f78d6a9c9091b018.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Public/ViaductComparison.xls&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Comparison&lt;/a&gt;.

It&#039;s just my first hack at comparing the PDFs and noting the differences.  Let me know if you see anything wrong or missing.</description>
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Option C works at the Market by using an underpass.  The PDF shows it.  </p>
<p>I put an Excel spreadsheet comparing the options up here: <a href="http://cid-f78d6a9c9091b018.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Public/ViaductComparison.xls" rel="nofollow">Comparison</a>.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s just my first hack at comparing the PDFs and noting the differences.  Let me know if you see anything wrong or missing.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: M</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/14/viaduct-replacement-options/#comment-18005</link>
		<dc:creator>M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Nov 2008 01:53:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1285#comment-18005</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not seeing how option C can work with current pedestrian traffic in the Market. Western currently bogs down with all the foot traffic a V.Steinbruck park. What am I missing?</description>
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I&#8217;m not seeing how option C can work with current pedestrian traffic in the Market. Western currently bogs down with all the foot traffic a V.Steinbruck park. What am I missing?<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Eric L</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/14/viaduct-replacement-options/#comment-17999</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Nov 2008 01:35:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1285#comment-17999</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to see price tags, certainly...  All the options seem to involve widening I-5, which can&#039;t be cheap.  C looks like the most plausible surface option, creating reasonable circulation patterns for both the Aurora and Elliot/15th corridors and creates a nice waterfront.

I don&#039;t like E at all, the elevated park would be very out of the way, moreso even than freeway park, and it creates a narrow pedestrian corridor not by a street as well as a narrow street, basically a bunch of north/south corridors none of which I would feel safe walking along at night.  Plus the elevated park would scatter the freeway noise downward, much the way the second level of the viaduct scatters the noise of the lower level and makes the waterfront noisy.  The only place I would consider an elevated park over the viaduct is an extension of Victor Steinbrueck park.

About the transit in B...  Honestly, I&#039;m not that enthusiastic about it.  Streetcars are for short trips and are really the wrong technology to connect to Ballard.  And they don&#039;t create more transit in aggregate because they are no bigger than buses, no faster, and no cheaper to run.  If we&#039;re going to invest capital in transit to Ballard, we should make something fast, not capacity limited, that actually brings Ballard closer to Seattle and would be worth transferring from local buses to.  Really, the best things transit wise on these plans are the bus improvements.  I&#039;d like to see something better, but B isn&#039;t it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I&#8217;d like to see price tags, certainly&#8230;  All the options seem to involve widening I-5, which can&#8217;t be cheap.  C looks like the most plausible surface option, creating reasonable circulation patterns for both the Aurora and Elliot/15th corridors and creates a nice waterfront.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t like E at all, the elevated park would be very out of the way, moreso even than freeway park, and it creates a narrow pedestrian corridor not by a street as well as a narrow street, basically a bunch of north/south corridors none of which I would feel safe walking along at night.  Plus the elevated park would scatter the freeway noise downward, much the way the second level of the viaduct scatters the noise of the lower level and makes the waterfront noisy.  The only place I would consider an elevated park over the viaduct is an extension of Victor Steinbrueck park.</p>
<p>About the transit in B&#8230;  Honestly, I&#8217;m not that enthusiastic about it.  Streetcars are for short trips and are really the wrong technology to connect to Ballard.  And they don&#8217;t create more transit in aggregate because they are no bigger than buses, no faster, and no cheaper to run.  If we&#8217;re going to invest capital in transit to Ballard, we should make something fast, not capacity limited, that actually brings Ballard closer to Seattle and would be worth transferring from local buses to.  Really, the best things transit wise on these plans are the bus improvements.  I&#8217;d like to see something better, but B isn&#8217;t it.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: KeithR</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/14/viaduct-replacement-options/#comment-17998</link>
		<dc:creator>KeithR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Nov 2008 01:25:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1285#comment-17998</guid>
		<description>My thoughts exactly.  I like Option C best for the waterfront area, so let&#039;s do that and then add the additional transit afterwards.  C includes some of the streetcar lines.  The University and Ballard\Fremont streetcar lines can be added later.  But you can&#039;t fix what you did on the waterfront from B to C later.</description>
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My thoughts exactly.  I like Option C best for the waterfront area, so let&#8217;s do that and then add the additional transit afterwards.  C includes some of the streetcar lines.  The University and Ballard\Fremont streetcar lines can be added later.  But you can&#8217;t fix what you did on the waterfront from B to C later.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: phil on qa</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/14/viaduct-replacement-options/#comment-17978</link>
		<dc:creator>phil on qa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 23:42:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1285#comment-17978</guid>
		<description>Looks like a cap will be built over Western Ave just at Steinbruck park.  That&#039;s the big choke point for Western right 
now.  The pdf shows more detail.</description>
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Looks like a cap will be built over Western Ave just at Steinbruck park.  That&#8217;s the big choke point for Western right<br />
now.  The pdf shows more detail.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Matt the Engineer</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/14/viaduct-replacement-options/#comment-17977</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt the Engineer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 23:40:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1285#comment-17977</guid>
		<description>I certainly sympathize with the West Seattlites.  I think our best choices there are a) beef up the walk-on ferry system, and provide some way to get down to it (Seattle could use a good funicular) or b) accelerate ST3 light rail.</description>
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I certainly sympathize with the West Seattlites.  I think our best choices there are a) beef up the walk-on ferry system, and provide some way to get down to it (Seattle could use a good funicular) or b) accelerate ST3 light rail.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: J</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/11/14/viaduct-replacement-options/#comment-17976</link>
		<dc:creator>J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 23:15:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=1285#comment-17976</guid>
		<description>We should have built the monorail; so many of the transit time problems here would be moot.</description>
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We should have built the monorail; so many of the transit time problems here would be moot.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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