Comments on: Ride Free Zone

By: Eric L

Eric L — Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:15:52 +0000

Eliminating the RFA would make these stops take a bit longer, but the overall trip time would be the same — each passenger still takes his X seconds paying his fare.

Whether that time is spent in downtown Seattle or outside it makes a big difference, because the downtown streets are full of buses and they often have to wait for other buses to clear the bus stops. This is why already we have implemented skip stop on most downtown streets. If dwell times increased in the central business district, that might no longer be sufficient to accomodate all the buses.

I’d be happy to see the RFA go and be replaced by a prepayed only area, if those work and aren’t even more confusing. The only other bus system I have significant experience with is Pittsburgh, and it’s not that different. I don’t think they had a ride free area, but they did have buses going away from downtown operate as pay-as-you-leave during most of the day.

By: Ruby

Ruby — Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:11:37 +0000

Sorry….ORCA will help speed up the RFA related problems. That was my point.

By: Ruby

Ruby — Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:08:50 +0000

ORCA is on its way! The drivers are getting the training right now and it won’t be long before you can actually USE those funny boxes that have been on the bus for over a year. You won’t even have to take your pass out of your wallet/purse/pocket. You just have to wave the pass within 3 inches of the box and your fare is registered.(so if it’s in your pocket you just have to get close to the machine.)You won’t have to pass a card through the slot and the driver won’t have to look at it. If it’s not valid, it will not “read” and a beep will go off…just like the weird noise the card slot makes now I guess. Your fare is deducted from the total that you have purchased and when it runs out you just load more money into it. There will still be cash fares but most passengers use the bus passes anyway.

Hey…it’s a start.

By: Michael Ragsdale

Michael Ragsdale — Sun, 30 Nov 2008 05:02:03 +0000

And what sucks about that Metro-only Visitor Pass is that it doesn’t even work on say the 550 (even though that’s clearly a Metro operated bus)

By: Jessica

Jessica — Sat, 29 Nov 2008 23:37:41 +0000

What really pisses me off is when some fool gets on the 545 in the mornings and we’re running late as it is because of the 520 Bridge (I’m referring to that one jerk who asks how much fare is every time – same passenger, same driver, same trip). I have a Microsoft Employee ID, let us pass users (UPass, Microsoft ID, Puget Pass, etc) use the back door

By: Michael Ragsdale

Michael Ragsdale — Sat, 29 Nov 2008 23:31:20 +0000

A great big AMEN to that one, and it goes for transit systems anywhere

By: Michael Ragsdale

Michael Ragsdale — Sat, 29 Nov 2008 21:40:58 +0000

It was always fun trying to explain when I was waiting at Tacoma Dome Station the Ride Free Area. In addition, I was on the 510 once visiting a friend in Everett and it took someone a lot of convincing* that this bus was free within Downtown (they were going from King Street Station to Central Library)

* which of course lead to angry passengers trying to get to Everett

By: John Charles Wilson

John Charles Wilson — Sat, 29 Nov 2008 19:56:58 +0000

Seattle had a “Dime Shuttle” from the 1950s to 1973, which was replaced by the Magic Carpet Zone. The Dime Shuttle ran from Westlake to Pioneer Square. I don’t have specific route info at this time.

By: John Charles Wilson

John Charles Wilson — Fri, 28 Nov 2008 23:30:09 +0000

I am incensed every time I see the “bums and hoboes” argument. I have been homeless for 8 of the last 20 years. Not currently and not all at once. I was homeless *in Seattle* off and on during 1989-91, 1996, and 2002-3. Yes, I rode buses, and not always “for transportation purposes”. First of all, I have been a transit hobbyist all my life, and I often go for recreational rides. When I used to travel, of course I wanted to ride as many bus lines in every city I went to as possible! Now, during the 1989-91 era, I stayed at DESC, which at the time had a lottery system. The lottery prize was a place to sleep. If you lost you could try again at Operation Nightwatch. Failing that, which didn’t really happen that often in those days, meant I took the 280 all the way around the Night Owl loop twice to get some shut-eye. I always behaved myself and was sober. I’ve never been much for taking baths/showers, even when “homeful”, but I didn’t piss my pants or anything like that. (Ironically, I was banned from Pierce Transit in 1991 for lack of hygiene and I was “homeful” at the time!) However, except for that issue, I never caused a problem on buses. I had an income and always paid my fare. I never heard of any “free pass” program, that must be new. In 2002-3, I stayed at SHARE, which gave its clients two free bus tickets a day. Instead of stereotyping the homeless, why not direct your complaints against the specific behaviours or characteristics you take offence at in these people. I might even agree with you on some of them….

I actually agree the FRZ should be abolished for revenue reasons more than anything else. I think a revival of the old “Dime Shuttle” (adjusted for inflation to about 55 cents) which went from Westlate to Pioneer Square would be appropriate for lunchers/shoppers, and Metro should go to more zonal fares, at the rates used by Seattle Transit System and Metropolitan Transit Corporation in 1970, adjusted for inflation….

By: justinf

justinf — Fri, 28 Nov 2008 22:34:51 +0000

Does anybody have any data to back up the belief that the ride-free area speeds things up? Some of the comments on this thread make it sound like the whole Metro system will grind to a halt if the RFA is eliminated and riders always paid as they entered.

The buses that run on 3rd Ave have about 4 stops with high volumes of passengers entering/exiting. Eliminating the RFA would make these stops take a bit longer, but the overall trip time would be the same — each passenger still takes his X seconds paying his fare. (Riders that are incapable of having their fares ready are a separate problem.)

Always paying as you enter could actually make things go faster. The simplicity and consistency would eliminate confusion for infrequent and new riders. Riders who go through the RFA wouldn’t need to pay twice. Exiting a crowded pay-as-you-leave bus wouldn’t require fighting your way to the front of the bus.

And a bonus of this change would be additional revenue for Metro. I don’t know that there are many trips taken within the RFA, so I don’t think this is where this revenue would come from. But I see a significant number of riders exiting without paying — either because they can or the driver lets them out the back due to overcrowding. Paying as you enter would address the latter case and probably reduce instances of the former.

By: Snoqualmie joe

Snoqualmie joe — Thu, 27 Nov 2008 21:54:34 +0000

What actually slows the process is the idiots that don’t get their fare ready until the last damn minute! That is what slows everything down!!!

By: Snoqualmie joe

Snoqualmie joe — Thu, 27 Nov 2008 21:44:17 +0000

Metro has been testing the ORCA readers along with the radio system. A glitch has been found and everything is on hold right now! Not sure whether this will delay implementation of the system in march 2009 or not!

By: Michael Ragsdale

Michael Ragsdale — Thu, 27 Nov 2008 19:26:47 +0000

As a former Pierce County Resident (who commuted via the 590-something – usually 592 or 594 – or Tacoma Sounder), here’s my two cents:

In Norfolk, Virginia, we have Hampton Roads Transit Route 17 (The NET) which is a free circulator running up and down our equivalent of 3rd Ave as well as the free #310 which loops the perimeter of Downtown Norfolk. (disclaimer: Downtown Norfolk is MUCH smaller than Downtown Seattle). All other routes are regular fare.

By: Ruby

Ruby — Thu, 27 Nov 2008 06:51:30 +0000

I believe they get them from their Welfare worker. I don’t know other than that. Sorry. I know you can get a reduced fare permit if you are a senior or have some kind of disability. You pay $9 for a sticker each month then you can ride the bus for 50 cents. Those are available from Metro at various places. 2nd & Jackson downtown or at the Pine Street tunnel kiosk.

By: Martin H. Duke

Martin H. Duke — Thu, 27 Nov 2008 00:02:25 +0000

Ruby,

Can you give more specific information on where these free passes come from? I’ve heard it asserted before that low-income people can get assistance with passes, but no one’s ever provided me with a contact or link.

By: John Jensen

John Jensen — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 21:37:46 +0000

The system is not incredibly user friendly, especially as you approach 7pm. Having to pay as you enter at the beginning of the route and then flash your transfer near the end of the route is confusing and has nothing to do with functional literacy.

By: joshuadf

joshuadf — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 15:41:31 +0000

Well, free passes given to homeless is a different issue than the Ride Free Area, but thanks for describing another reason a day shelter would be a good idea.

By: Ruby

Ruby — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 10:11:08 +0000

You are so right! Half the passengers that get on the bus in the RFA try to pay anyway! No matter that the driver says to pay as you leave over and over again.

The RFA is kept alive because the downtown business owners pay a fee to the county. They think that it encourages people that work downtown to go shopping or whatever on their lunch hour. Sounds good on paper eh? Ending the RFA has actually been brought up numerous times at City Council meetings but the council-peeps don’t want to lose the money they get from the businesses downtown. We need to speak up a bit louder I guess. If there was no Free Ride, then the free loaders wouldn’t be on the bus…and that would speed things up considerably at both ends. You don’t have to sit and wait for some dork to do that “Transfer Dance”, patting all his pockets and thumbing through his wallet, when you know darn well he has no transfer anyway.

By: Ruby

Ruby — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 09:57:25 +0000

Matt, only part of this is in response to your comments above. The rest is just responding to some general comments I’ve seen here…

“Or are they getting on, then sleeping while riding out to the suburbs, then refusing to pay when they get off. If so, how do they get back?”

Not only do they refuse to pay but they won’t get off the bus until the driver has called the police and waited for assistance in “de-boarding” said passenger. Then they spit or swear at the driver for having the nerve to wake them. Homeless people have resources available to them that enables them to ride the bus with a card GIVEN to them by taxpayers. Put yourself in the drivers place for a bit and think what it would be like to have that stench in your nose all day. Even after these “non-transportation” get off the bus the scent lasts for a long time. When it finally dissipates a new, similar person gets on and it starts all over. Before you judge a driver as being a bad person for not helping someone that is “down and out” realize that they deal with this all day long and if the RFA was gone it a lot of the problem would be taken care of. Would anyone like to have a smelling piss-pants guy lying on the floor under your desk while you work? I didn’t think so.

~Thanks for letting me vent~

By: Matt the Engineer

Matt the Engineer — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 05:09:13 +0000

“The RFA encourages people to use Metro for non-transportation purposes (i.e., sleeping, hanging out, passing out)”

Quite a few commenters have made this point. But I don’t get it. Are people really sleeping during the six stops downtown, then crossing the street and trying again? Or are they getting on, then sleeping while riding out to the suburbs, then refusing to pay when they get off. If so, how do they get back? And why haven’t I seen many homeless people on our buses compared to most cities?