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	<title>Comments on: Sound Transit Stimulus Request</title>
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	<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/01/09/sound-transit-stimulus-request/</link>
	<description>Transit in the Greater Seattle Area</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 02:25:38 -0800</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Federal Transportation Bill Moves Foward - Seattle Transit Blog</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/01/09/sound-transit-stimulus-request/#comment-88733</link>
		<dc:creator>Federal Transportation Bill Moves Foward - Seattle Transit Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 23:20:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2020#comment-88733</guid>
		<description>[...] with the stimulus. A large pile of money could allow for some interesting outcomes. With just $30 million in grant money, for example, Sound Transit could complete the South 200th street light rail station [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] with the stimulus. A large pile of money could allow for some interesting outcomes. With just $30 million in grant money, for example, Sound Transit could complete the South 200th street light rail station [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John Thacker</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/01/09/sound-transit-stimulus-request/#comment-25623</link>
		<dc:creator>John Thacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 23:35:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2020#comment-25623</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;In my dream world we’ll have an era of rail and transit construction much like the original interstate highway program with a 90% Federal contribution.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Except that the original interstate highway program had a massive amount of eminent domain, bulldozing communities according to what the feds wanted, and ignoring environmental issues.  The result was NEPA.  Of course, the other result of that is that it&#039;s absolutely impossible to build anything, including rail, that quickly.  Seattle is lucky enough to have projects that already have EISes completed, but there&#039;s only so much that could be done to speed up new projects.

NEPA makes it easier to add more lanes to an existing highway than to build new rail over new right-of-way.  Less environmental impact, you see.  (Even if the environmental impact is net positive of rail, there&#039;s still more impacts both ways when using new right of way.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>In my dream world we’ll have an era of rail and transit construction much like the original interstate highway program with a 90% Federal contribution.</p></blockquote>
<p>Except that the original interstate highway program had a massive amount of eminent domain, bulldozing communities according to what the feds wanted, and ignoring environmental issues.  The result was NEPA.  Of course, the other result of that is that it&#8217;s absolutely impossible to build anything, including rail, that quickly.  Seattle is lucky enough to have projects that already have EISes completed, but there&#8217;s only so much that could be done to speed up new projects.</p>
<p>NEPA makes it easier to add more lanes to an existing highway than to build new rail over new right-of-way.  Less environmental impact, you see.  (Even if the environmental impact is net positive of rail, there&#8217;s still more impacts both ways when using new right of way.)</p>
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		<title>By: C Burger</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/01/09/sound-transit-stimulus-request/#comment-24996</link>
		<dc:creator>C Burger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 00:31:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2020#comment-24996</guid>
		<description>I thought Joni Earl was going to Washington?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought Joni Earl was going to Washington?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/01/09/sound-transit-stimulus-request/#comment-24974</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:28:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2020#comment-24974</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Jan 20th doesn’t necessarily mean the job for fixed-guideway proponents is over.&lt;/i&gt;

Too true. The highway and suburban sprawl lobby is still powerful and has many friends at the federal, state, and local level. Not to mention all of the fellow travelers, useful idiots, and snake-oil salesmen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Jan 20th doesn’t necessarily mean the job for fixed-guideway proponents is over.</i></p>
<p>Too true. The highway and suburban sprawl lobby is still powerful and has many friends at the federal, state, and local level. Not to mention all of the fellow travelers, useful idiots, and snake-oil salesmen.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/01/09/sound-transit-stimulus-request/#comment-24973</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:23:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2020#comment-24973</guid>
		<description>In my dream world we&#039;ll have an era of rail and transit construction much like the original interstate highway program with a 90% Federal contribution.

More realisticly I hope the next 8 years (and beyond) see the best Federal support of transit and rail since the projects of the 60&#039;s and 70&#039;s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my dream world we&#8217;ll have an era of rail and transit construction much like the original interstate highway program with a 90% Federal contribution.</p>
<p>More realisticly I hope the next 8 years (and beyond) see the best Federal support of transit and rail since the projects of the 60&#8217;s and 70&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/01/09/sound-transit-stimulus-request/#comment-24969</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:28:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2020#comment-24969</guid>
		<description>Oh wow, people will be able to load value onto their ORCA card online.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh wow, people will be able to load value onto their ORCA card online.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/01/09/sound-transit-stimulus-request/#comment-24933</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:25:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2020#comment-24933</guid>
		<description>Yeah but not a full-complement of federal funding, only $900 million. If North link and East link are funded $500 mn each (which is what Central Link got) that would be more than ST planned into ST2. North Link could get $750 mn with a more generous administration. The First Hill streetcar&#039;s ridership numbers will almost certain qualify it for a small-start that could be worth another $25mn (small starts go to $75mn, though the project get for that much).

U-Link by itself will get almost  (at least $813mn) what was planned into ST2. My point is it&#039;s not crazy to guess that the three ST2 LRT projects could in total get more than the $900 million estimated into ST2. 

Also, the timing matters a ton as well. If the feds were to give $900 mn tomorrow, all of the system will be finished much sooner than if the $900 mn shows up in 2020.

Finally, The operations will only be .4% or .5% of the .9% the Sound Transit is authorized from ST2. So Sound Transit would not necessarily have to ask for more funding authority. Probably though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah but not a full-complement of federal funding, only $900 million. If North link and East link are funded $500 mn each (which is what Central Link got) that would be more than ST planned into ST2. North Link could get $750 mn with a more generous administration. The First Hill streetcar&#8217;s ridership numbers will almost certain qualify it for a small-start that could be worth another $25mn (small starts go to $75mn, though the project get for that much).</p>
<p>U-Link by itself will get almost  (at least $813mn) what was planned into ST2. My point is it&#8217;s not crazy to guess that the three ST2 LRT projects could in total get more than the $900 million estimated into ST2. </p>
<p>Also, the timing matters a ton as well. If the feds were to give $900 mn tomorrow, all of the system will be finished much sooner than if the $900 mn shows up in 2020.</p>
<p>Finally, The operations will only be .4% or .5% of the .9% the Sound Transit is authorized from ST2. So Sound Transit would not necessarily have to ask for more funding authority. Probably though.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/01/09/sound-transit-stimulus-request/#comment-24932</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:19:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2020#comment-24932</guid>
		<description>Here;s an IPS study that shows that you get a much bigger jobs boost from transit relative to defense or highways:
http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/03/16/want-to-boost-the-economy-george-build-transit/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here;s an IPS study that shows that you get a much bigger jobs boost from transit relative to defense or highways:<br />
<a href="http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/03/16/want-to-boost-the-economy-george-build-transit/" rel="nofollow">http://seattletransitblog.com/2008/03/16/want-to-boost-the-economy-george-build-transit/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/01/09/sound-transit-stimulus-request/#comment-24931</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:17:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2020#comment-24931</guid>
		<description>It should 2012 or 2016 or (gasp!) 2020. You don&#039;t want to run this important ballot measures in off-presidential cycle elections. Presidential elections are really the only time everyone votes. And everyone voting is better for Light Rail.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It should 2012 or 2016 or (gasp!) 2020. You don&#8217;t want to run this important ballot measures in off-presidential cycle elections. Presidential elections are really the only time everyone votes. And everyone voting is better for Light Rail.</p>
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		<title>By: John Jensen</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/01/09/sound-transit-stimulus-request/#comment-24929</link>
		<dc:creator>John Jensen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:13:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2020#comment-24929</guid>
		<description>Federal grants are already assumed for the current lines -- so we need new starts money to build ST2 on time. It&#039;s pretty unlikely we&#039;ll see extensions of the line from federal money. I mean, you bid on a project and the feds give you some money -- so we&#039;d have to bid with an extended line. If more money is given than expected, I&#039;m guessing the likeliest outcome is an accelerated project.

RE: ST3, please, let&#039;s just do it on a presidential year -- that was a big lesson from ST2&#039;s passage, in my opinion. Earliest might be 2016 since I don&#039;t think it&#039;d be wise to ask for more funding before U-Link opens. ST3 will have to have more taxing authority, from the state legislature, which might not be a political possibility before U-Link opens as well. So that might push back a vote until 2020... So I think we&#039;ll be waiting 8 or 12 years. That&#039;s a long time to speculate :(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Federal grants are already assumed for the current lines &#8212; so we need new starts money to build ST2 on time. It&#8217;s pretty unlikely we&#8217;ll see extensions of the line from federal money. I mean, you bid on a project and the feds give you some money &#8212; so we&#8217;d have to bid with an extended line. If more money is given than expected, I&#8217;m guessing the likeliest outcome is an accelerated project.</p>
<p>RE: ST3, please, let&#8217;s just do it on a presidential year &#8212; that was a big lesson from ST2&#8217;s passage, in my opinion. Earliest might be 2016 since I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;d be wise to ask for more funding before U-Link opens. ST3 will have to have more taxing authority, from the state legislature, which might not be a political possibility before U-Link opens as well. So that might push back a vote until 2020&#8230; So I think we&#8217;ll be waiting 8 or 12 years. That&#8217;s a long time to speculate :(</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/01/09/sound-transit-stimulus-request/#comment-24928</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:12:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2020#comment-24928</guid>
		<description>What&#039;s sad is that Portland&#039;s MAX was nearly entirely built under new starts. It&#039;s sad for Portland because it means many of the lines were built on the cheap. It&#039;s sad for Seattle because it shows how much easier it was to get money for these lines in the 80s and 90s. Hopefully the 2010s are similarly easy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s sad is that Portland&#8217;s MAX was nearly entirely built under new starts. It&#8217;s sad for Portland because it means many of the lines were built on the cheap. It&#8217;s sad for Seattle because it shows how much easier it was to get money for these lines in the 80s and 90s. Hopefully the 2010s are similarly easy.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/01/09/sound-transit-stimulus-request/#comment-24927</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:08:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2020#comment-24927</guid>
		<description>Rear-door orca readers are a great idea for stimulus funding. In a different time the ORCA project would have received a big state contribution. Not these days...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rear-door orca readers are a great idea for stimulus funding. In a different time the ORCA project would have received a big state contribution. Not these days&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: John Jensen</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/01/09/sound-transit-stimulus-request/#comment-24926</link>
		<dc:creator>John Jensen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:05:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2020#comment-24926</guid>
		<description>I believe much of the criteria is not mandated by congress, i.e. it is an executive branch decision. Hopefully the FTA will move to change some of its guidelines rapidly, and the re authorization of the highway &amp; transit spending bill will follow through on any congressional changes this year. But good point: Jan 20th doesn&#039;t necessarily mean the job for fixed-guideway proponents is over.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe much of the criteria is not mandated by congress, i.e. it is an executive branch decision. Hopefully the FTA will move to change some of its guidelines rapidly, and the re authorization of the highway &#038; transit spending bill will follow through on any congressional changes this year. But good point: Jan 20th doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean the job for fixed-guideway proponents is over.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/01/09/sound-transit-stimulus-request/#comment-24918</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 08:21:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2020#comment-24918</guid>
		<description>Well I&#039;m going by comments I&#039;ve seen here and elsewhere about the New Starts rating critera tending to favor BRT over rail. I&#039;m told expansion of exsisting rail systems tends to fare particularly poorly.

While I expect the Obama administration to be much more favorable to rail, the current criteria for evaluating grant requests are in place until they are changed. In any case the fact that both Central Link and U-Link recieved high ratings by the New Starts criteria and that U-Link recieved what is a relatively large grant under recent funding I think bodes well for additional large Federal grants for the remainder of Link.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well I&#8217;m going by comments I&#8217;ve seen here and elsewhere about the New Starts rating critera tending to favor BRT over rail. I&#8217;m told expansion of exsisting rail systems tends to fare particularly poorly.</p>
<p>While I expect the Obama administration to be much more favorable to rail, the current criteria for evaluating grant requests are in place until they are changed. In any case the fact that both Central Link and U-Link recieved high ratings by the New Starts criteria and that U-Link recieved what is a relatively large grant under recent funding I think bodes well for additional large Federal grants for the remainder of Link.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/01/09/sound-transit-stimulus-request/#comment-24914</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 07:34:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2020#comment-24914</guid>
		<description>KCM buys power for the trolley buses from Seattle City Light (which gets its power primarily from Ross and Boundary Dams).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KCM buys power for the trolley buses from Seattle City Light (which gets its power primarily from Ross and Boundary Dams).</p>
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		<title>By: eddiew</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/01/09/sound-transit-stimulus-request/#comment-24901</link>
		<dc:creator>eddiew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 04:28:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2020#comment-24901</guid>
		<description>recall this blog&#039;s threads on fare collection and fare structure.  how about asking  for the cost of rear door readers for the bus fleets?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>recall this blog&#8217;s threads on fare collection and fare structure.  how about asking  for the cost of rear door readers for the bus fleets?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/01/09/sound-transit-stimulus-request/#comment-24889</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 02:20:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2020#comment-24889</guid>
		<description>From reading the linked article it would seem the money is intended more for hybrid buses and less so for fuel. Though many transit agencies are having funding problems due to the spike in fuel prices last year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From reading the linked article it would seem the money is intended more for hybrid buses and less so for fuel. Though many transit agencies are having funding problems due to the spike in fuel prices last year.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/01/09/sound-transit-stimulus-request/#comment-24888</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 02:14:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2020#comment-24888</guid>
		<description>The $204 million is formula based transit assistance money based on population and transit ridership. According to the linked article the state would decide where the money went (though I believe it must go to transit). Kind of pleased to see Washington would be #9 for the funding amount, beating out several states with a higher population.

I believe the $2.5 billion is additional money on top of whatever &quot;normal&quot; amount of money is appropriated for new starts or whatever replaces it in the next transportation bill.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The $204 million is formula based transit assistance money based on population and transit ridership. According to the linked article the state would decide where the money went (though I believe it must go to transit). Kind of pleased to see Washington would be #9 for the funding amount, beating out several states with a higher population.</p>
<p>I believe the $2.5 billion is additional money on top of whatever &#8220;normal&#8221; amount of money is appropriated for new starts or whatever replaces it in the next transportation bill.</p>
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		<title>By: alexjonlin</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/01/09/sound-transit-stimulus-request/#comment-24870</link>
		<dc:creator>alexjonlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:26:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2020#comment-24870</guid>
		<description>Well one thing that we kept saying to everyone while phonebanking or doorbelling for Mass Transit Now was that construction of Link is &quot;On time and under-budget,&quot; and that may be one of the reasons that it passed, so maybe even if it&#039;s not open yet, a sped-up North Link could be good for ST3. And personally, I&#039;m hoping we see ST3 on the ballot sooner... maybe even 2012 or 2014.
And what do people think that we might get in federal grants (New Starts, etc.) over the next 4-8 years? I&#039;m guessing the most likely would be Link to Federal Way TC, as that would get a lot more riders for not too much money, and Downtown Redmond would also seem like a likely candidate, especially with most of the money for designing the extension already appropriated in ST2. We might be able to get to Ash Way too, if the FTA is feeling really generous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well one thing that we kept saying to everyone while phonebanking or doorbelling for Mass Transit Now was that construction of Link is &#8220;On time and under-budget,&#8221; and that may be one of the reasons that it passed, so maybe even if it&#8217;s not open yet, a sped-up North Link could be good for ST3. And personally, I&#8217;m hoping we see ST3 on the ballot sooner&#8230; maybe even 2012 or 2014.<br />
And what do people think that we might get in federal grants (New Starts, etc.) over the next 4-8 years? I&#8217;m guessing the most likely would be Link to Federal Way TC, as that would get a lot more riders for not too much money, and Downtown Redmond would also seem like a likely candidate, especially with most of the money for designing the extension already appropriated in ST2. We might be able to get to Ash Way too, if the FTA is feeling really generous.</p>
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		<title>By: poncho</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/01/09/sound-transit-stimulus-request/#comment-24861</link>
		<dc:creator>poncho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 19:54:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2020#comment-24861</guid>
		<description>now would seem to be the time for ordering new trolley buses since there are still models in production. the few systems that still have etbs have replaced them in the last 8-10 years and the last of these system to replace their fleet is beginning to receive them now (septa).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>now would seem to be the time for ordering new trolley buses since there are still models in production. the few systems that still have etbs have replaced them in the last 8-10 years and the last of these system to replace their fleet is beginning to receive them now (septa).</p>
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