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	<title>Comments on: Bel-Red TOD</title>
	<atom:link href="http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/02/18/bel-red-tod/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/02/18/bel-red-tod/</link>
	<description>Transit in the Greater Seattle Area</description>
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		<title>By: Bellevue City Council Endorsements - Seattle Transit Blog</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/02/18/bel-red-tod/#comment-73582</link>
		<dc:creator>Bellevue City Council Endorsements - Seattle Transit Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2806#comment-73582</guid>
		<description>[...] and as current chair of the Bellevue Planning Commission worked on the Bel-Red Corridor Plan to build TOD around East Link light rail stations. She&#8217;s even been endorsed by the Cascade Bicycle Club! [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
[...] and as current chair of the Bellevue Planning Commission worked on the Bel-Red Corridor Plan to build TOD around East Link light rail stations. She&#8217;s even been endorsed by the Cascade Bicycle Club! [...]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Time to Re-Think Zoning - Seattle Transit Blog</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/02/18/bel-red-tod/#comment-47322</link>
		<dc:creator>Time to Re-Think Zoning - Seattle Transit Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 17:44:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2806#comment-47322</guid>
		<description>[...] mentioned this idea briefly my post about Bellevue&#8217;s plans for transit oriented development in the Bel-Red neighborhood. I live in the U-District and my home has a perfect 100 walkscore. Most of the myriad of small [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
[...] mentioned this idea briefly my post about Bellevue&#8217;s plans for transit oriented development in the Bel-Red neighborhood. I live in the U-District and my home has a perfect 100 walkscore. Most of the myriad of small [...]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Is the Problem Auto-Dependency or Suburbia? - Seattle Transit Blog</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/02/18/bel-red-tod/#comment-35653</link>
		<dc:creator>Is the Problem Auto-Dependency or Suburbia? - Seattle Transit Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Mar 2009 23:55:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2806#comment-35653</guid>
		<description>[...] You can suburban development that is relatively dense and walkable and near transit stops. The Bel-Red corridor in Bellevue is an example of that. The Growth Management work from the state and regional levels [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
[...] You can suburban development that is relatively dense and walkable and near transit stops. The Bel-Red corridor in Bellevue is an example of that. The Growth Management work from the state and regional levels [...]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Density Around Light Rail Stations (Again) - Seattle Transit Blog</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/02/18/bel-red-tod/#comment-31646</link>
		<dc:creator>Density Around Light Rail Stations (Again) - Seattle Transit Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 08:07:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2806#comment-31646</guid>
		<description>[...] It seems to me that the area around this station is Seattle&#8217;s version of Bel-Red, a huge opportunity to turn a dusty pass-through-only area into a walkable urban [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
[...] It seems to me that the area around this station is Seattle&#8217;s version of Bel-Red, a huge opportunity to turn a dusty pass-through-only area into a walkable urban [...]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Bernie</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/02/18/bel-red-tod/#comment-30743</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:56:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2806#comment-30743</guid>
		<description>FYI, the cement plant on 130th is still there, just drove by it. Might want to update your history from the your truck driving days back in &#039;68.

Zoning is all about stability. Nobody will pay big bucks for a McMansion if they think the zoning changes will suddenly allow condos to be built next door. Companies won&#039;t invest in a factory (or any business) if they don&#039;t have faith in local government to maintain zoning.

Back to the point with respect to transit; the choices presented in the DIES are either the D2/D3 alignments which wander through the core of Bel-Red (light industrial) or D5 which more closely follows existing transportation corridors. D5 is the clear winner (according to ST) on cost effectiveness and efficiency. The only reasons advanced for D2/D3 are based on the social engineering promoting redevelopment based mostly on factually incorrect stereotypes.

The financial support advocating for D2/3 is from companies which will receive windfall profits from this growth. Follow the money. Eastside tax payers voted for this latest measure on the good faith that light rail would improve transportation problems faced by the eastside; not that it would be the key impetuous to more growth in areas where large tracts of land can be had relatively cheap compared to the existing retail zoning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
FYI, the cement plant on 130th is still there, just drove by it. Might want to update your history from the your truck driving days back in &#8217;68.</p>
<p>Zoning is all about stability. Nobody will pay big bucks for a McMansion if they think the zoning changes will suddenly allow condos to be built next door. Companies won&#8217;t invest in a factory (or any business) if they don&#8217;t have faith in local government to maintain zoning.</p>
<p>Back to the point with respect to transit; the choices presented in the DIES are either the D2/D3 alignments which wander through the core of Bel-Red (light industrial) or D5 which more closely follows existing transportation corridors. D5 is the clear winner (according to ST) on cost effectiveness and efficiency. The only reasons advanced for D2/D3 are based on the social engineering promoting redevelopment based mostly on factually incorrect stereotypes.</p>
<p>The financial support advocating for D2/3 is from companies which will receive windfall profits from this growth. Follow the money. Eastside tax payers voted for this latest measure on the good faith that light rail would improve transportation problems faced by the eastside; not that it would be the key impetuous to more growth in areas where large tracts of land can be had relatively cheap compared to the existing retail zoning.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: serial catowner</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/02/18/bel-red-tod/#comment-30549</link>
		<dc:creator>serial catowner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:56:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2806#comment-30549</guid>
		<description>Well, Bernie, what I call &#039;memory&#039; you call &#039;history&#039;, some of which you haven&#039;t read, and I can assure you that nobody was jumping up and down and saying &quot;Thank god they finally brought some good blue-collar jobs to Bellevue!&quot; when the Safeway plant opened.

You see, in those days a good blue-collar job meant making things like cars or airliners.  The &quot;gritty blue-collar underside&quot; the city depended on was literally gritty, because that was where iron ore became steel and steel became castings and castings were machined into parts.  The only blue-collar workers in all of this who had any interest in putting effervescent fluids into bottles were brewers.

I&#039;m just indulging you here because I delivered mail out there for nine months in 1968 and you&#039;ve sparked some wacky memories.  This was mainly rural with a big cement plant and some contractor&#039;s single-story sprawl, and there was a dog who chased my truck every day.  After about a month another carrier asked if I&#039;d noticed the dog only had three legs.  Well, sure enough, he only had three legs but he could run like a dog with four.  Kinda like some of your arguments, now that I think of it.

Another &quot;industry&quot; out there was some kind of a scam involving an old farmhouse, a fake windmill about 15 feet high, housewives, some kind of cosmetics, prizes, and a genuine &quot;Professor&quot;.  I never did figure that one out, but it always amazed me that anyone could be dazzled in a landscape filled with cement trucks on dirt roads.

Anyway, you&#039;re just cracking me up with your ideas that industry located in Bellevue and then a might city grew.  Something you don&#039;t understand though- if 20% of the jobs are in the corridor, it means that many many low-paid jobs are clustered there.  The most likely reason for this is that the corridor is protected by zoning from &quot;highest and best use&quot; market pressures.  If low-paid workers are replaced by more and better-paid residents, the City of Bellevue will benefit, and less &quot;subsidy&quot; will be paid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Well, Bernie, what I call &#8216;memory&#8217; you call &#8216;history&#8217;, some of which you haven&#8217;t read, and I can assure you that nobody was jumping up and down and saying &#8220;Thank god they finally brought some good blue-collar jobs to Bellevue!&#8221; when the Safeway plant opened.</p>
<p>You see, in those days a good blue-collar job meant making things like cars or airliners.  The &#8220;gritty blue-collar underside&#8221; the city depended on was literally gritty, because that was where iron ore became steel and steel became castings and castings were machined into parts.  The only blue-collar workers in all of this who had any interest in putting effervescent fluids into bottles were brewers.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m just indulging you here because I delivered mail out there for nine months in 1968 and you&#8217;ve sparked some wacky memories.  This was mainly rural with a big cement plant and some contractor&#8217;s single-story sprawl, and there was a dog who chased my truck every day.  After about a month another carrier asked if I&#8217;d noticed the dog only had three legs.  Well, sure enough, he only had three legs but he could run like a dog with four.  Kinda like some of your arguments, now that I think of it.</p>
<p>Another &#8220;industry&#8221; out there was some kind of a scam involving an old farmhouse, a fake windmill about 15 feet high, housewives, some kind of cosmetics, prizes, and a genuine &#8220;Professor&#8221;.  I never did figure that one out, but it always amazed me that anyone could be dazzled in a landscape filled with cement trucks on dirt roads.</p>
<p>Anyway, you&#8217;re just cracking me up with your ideas that industry located in Bellevue and then a might city grew.  Something you don&#8217;t understand though- if 20% of the jobs are in the corridor, it means that many many low-paid jobs are clustered there.  The most likely reason for this is that the corridor is protected by zoning from &#8220;highest and best use&#8221; market pressures.  If low-paid workers are replaced by more and better-paid residents, the City of Bellevue will benefit, and less &#8220;subsidy&#8221; will be paid.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Bernie</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/02/18/bel-red-tod/#comment-30460</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Feb 2009 03:29:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2806#comment-30460</guid>
		<description>I could get behind the idea to limit parking restrictions but Bellevue doesn&#039;t seem to roll that way. Call me a cynic but for years it seems the policy has been all about getting SUVs to Bellevue Square. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ci.bellevue.wa.us/pdf/Bel-Red_funding_scenarios_8-19-08.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Bel-Red Capital Projects Funding Strategy is a bit of a tough read but it looks like they are planning to turn NE15th into a new east west arterial. I sure hope the model for a bicycle friendly &quot;green street&quot; is something other than 148th.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I could get behind the idea to limit parking restrictions but Bellevue doesn&#8217;t seem to roll that way. Call me a cynic but for years it seems the policy has been all about getting SUVs to Bellevue Square. <a href="http://www.ci.bellevue.wa.us/pdf/Bel-Red_funding_scenarios_8-19-08.pdf" rel="nofollow">Bel-Red Capital Projects Funding Strategy is a bit of a tough read but it looks like they are planning to turn NE15th into a new east west arterial. I sure hope the model for a bicycle friendly &#8220;green street&#8221; is something other than 148th.<!-- google_ad_section_end --><br />
</a></p>
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		<title>By: Bernie</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/02/18/bel-red-tod/#comment-30455</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Feb 2009 02:38:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2806#comment-30455</guid>
		<description>According to the City of Bellevue Newsletter &quot;It&#039;s Your City&quot; (Sept 2005) employment in the Bel-Red cooridor was about 20% of the cities total employment. The Safeway and Coke-a-Cola plants were there before microcomputers were invented and long before Bellevue had a skyline.

So, SC you&#039;re memory seems to be failing you. There has been and still are things made in Bellevue, the businesses don&#039;t move every seven years and it is still a significant number of jobs. And you might want to actual know something about Circuit Services before you categorize them as &quot;fly-by-night assembly&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
According to the City of Bellevue Newsletter &#8220;It&#8217;s Your City&#8221; (Sept 2005) employment in the Bel-Red cooridor was about 20% of the cities total employment. The Safeway and Coke-a-Cola plants were there before microcomputers were invented and long before Bellevue had a skyline.</p>
<p>So, SC you&#8217;re memory seems to be failing you. There has been and still are things made in Bellevue, the businesses don&#8217;t move every seven years and it is still a significant number of jobs. And you might want to actual know something about Circuit Services before you categorize them as &#8220;fly-by-night assembly&#8221;.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: serial catowner</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/02/18/bel-red-tod/#comment-30448</link>
		<dc:creator>serial catowner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Feb 2009 01:43:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2806#comment-30448</guid>
		<description>Wow, that&#039;s something you don&#039;t see every day....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Wow, that&#8217;s something you don&#8217;t see every day&#8230;.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: serial catowner</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/02/18/bel-red-tod/#comment-30447</link>
		<dc:creator>serial catowner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Feb 2009 01:39:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2806#comment-30447</guid>
		<description>Bernie, what you&#039;re choosing not to understand is that the sprawl development of the Bel-Red corridor has been subsidized by zoning for almost half a century.  Without those zoning restrictions the high-rise development of Bellevue would have expanded eastward as middle rise development.

As for the area being a &quot;major&quot; source of employment, &lt;i&gt;pull-eeze&lt;/i&gt;.  Overlake Hospital undoubtedly has three times the payroll, five times the customers, and ten times the gross revenues of the Bel-Red area under discussion.

And, &quot;traditional blue-collar employment&quot;?  Earth to Bernie- &lt;i&gt;Bellevue never had any&lt;/i&gt;.  Oh, sure, McDonough used to fix gas motors, and Norm and his brother cut hair, but in general, blue-collar employment in Bellevue was high-school kids picking blueberries in the summer.  Damn, I&#039;m so old that when I was in school there, we would have considered it extremely low class to actually &lt;i&gt;win&lt;/i&gt; a football game against Renton.  It just &lt;i&gt;wasn&#039;t done&lt;/i&gt;.

Bellevue very cleverly used zoning to force high-rise development where they wanted it, but don&#039;t get confused about who was subsidized and who paid.  For almost half a century, low-rise sprawl development in the Bel-Red Corridor has been protected against market level rents by zoning restrictions, and the other taxpayers in Bellevue have paid higher taxes as a result.  The big change that is coming is not the beginning of a subsidy, but the ending of a subsidy.  And I would say, it&#039;s about time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Bernie, what you&#8217;re choosing not to understand is that the sprawl development of the Bel-Red corridor has been subsidized by zoning for almost half a century.  Without those zoning restrictions the high-rise development of Bellevue would have expanded eastward as middle rise development.</p>
<p>As for the area being a &#8220;major&#8221; source of employment, <i>pull-eeze</i>.  Overlake Hospital undoubtedly has three times the payroll, five times the customers, and ten times the gross revenues of the Bel-Red area under discussion.</p>
<p>And, &#8220;traditional blue-collar employment&#8221;?  Earth to Bernie- <i>Bellevue never had any</i>.  Oh, sure, McDonough used to fix gas motors, and Norm and his brother cut hair, but in general, blue-collar employment in Bellevue was high-school kids picking blueberries in the summer.  Damn, I&#8217;m so old that when I was in school there, we would have considered it extremely low class to actually <i>win</i> a football game against Renton.  It just <i>wasn&#8217;t done</i>.</p>
<p>Bellevue very cleverly used zoning to force high-rise development where they wanted it, but don&#8217;t get confused about who was subsidized and who paid.  For almost half a century, low-rise sprawl development in the Bel-Red Corridor has been protected against market level rents by zoning restrictions, and the other taxpayers in Bellevue have paid higher taxes as a result.  The big change that is coming is not the beginning of a subsidy, but the ending of a subsidy.  And I would say, it&#8217;s about time.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: serial catowner</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/02/18/bel-red-tod/#comment-30438</link>
		<dc:creator>serial catowner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Feb 2009 00:43:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2806#comment-30438</guid>
		<description>No, it does not &quot;totally blow my mind&quot;, in fact, &lt;i&gt;that was my point&lt;/i&gt;- trailer hitch welding, dump-truck parking, light distribution, and occasional fly-by-night assembly are all the area has ever been.  Baking a loaf of bread or filling a Coke bottle are veritable Everests of productivity compared with what has been done out there.  I don&#039;t need to &quot;write them out of history&quot;, they all, including the Safeway, write themselves out before you can even turn the page.

These are, in short, &lt;i&gt;sprawl-dependent&lt;/i&gt; businesses that migrate on a seven-year cycle to sprawly areas.  Am I concerned if the value of the land use rises and these sprawl industries can no longer pay a fair rent?  NO!  Considering that the area has already experienced all the downsides of sprawl for the past 40 years, I think it&#039;s a good thing.

Oh gracious me!  What will people do if they can&#039;t get their muffler fixed on the Bel-Red Road?  Well, I suppose &lt;i&gt;they will go somewhere else&lt;/i&gt;.  There used to be a big cement plant out there which I kinda doubt is still there, but we still seem to have plenty of cement.  There used to be a big candy company on Westlake that&#039;s gone now, but Seattle still has plenty of candy.

If the sprawl-development on Bel-Red led to anything productive, it would have done so by now.  In reality, the only thing it&#039;s led to is a desire by Bellevue to replace it with a higher use.  That&#039;s a feature, not a bug.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
No, it does not &#8220;totally blow my mind&#8221;, in fact, <i>that was my point</i>- trailer hitch welding, dump-truck parking, light distribution, and occasional fly-by-night assembly are all the area has ever been.  Baking a loaf of bread or filling a Coke bottle are veritable Everests of productivity compared with what has been done out there.  I don&#8217;t need to &#8220;write them out of history&#8221;, they all, including the Safeway, write themselves out before you can even turn the page.</p>
<p>These are, in short, <i>sprawl-dependent</i> businesses that migrate on a seven-year cycle to sprawly areas.  Am I concerned if the value of the land use rises and these sprawl industries can no longer pay a fair rent?  NO!  Considering that the area has already experienced all the downsides of sprawl for the past 40 years, I think it&#8217;s a good thing.</p>
<p>Oh gracious me!  What will people do if they can&#8217;t get their muffler fixed on the Bel-Red Road?  Well, I suppose <i>they will go somewhere else</i>.  There used to be a big cement plant out there which I kinda doubt is still there, but we still seem to have plenty of cement.  There used to be a big candy company on Westlake that&#8217;s gone now, but Seattle still has plenty of candy.</p>
<p>If the sprawl-development on Bel-Red led to anything productive, it would have done so by now.  In reality, the only thing it&#8217;s led to is a desire by Bellevue to replace it with a higher use.  That&#8217;s a feature, not a bug.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: John Jensen</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/02/18/bel-red-tod/#comment-30426</link>
		<dc:creator>John Jensen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 23:22:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2806#comment-30426</guid>
		<description>Tax payers voted to fund the quarter billion dollars it&#039;ll take to fun the rail down the right corridor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Tax payers voted to fund the quarter billion dollars it&#8217;ll take to fun the rail down the right corridor.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Bernie</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/02/18/bel-red-tod/#comment-30413</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:43:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2806#comment-30413</guid>
		<description>Light industrial is not necessarily manufacturing but the Safeway Bread Plant is an example of something still &quot;made in Belleuve&quot;. There&#039;s a good chance you&#039;ve owned electronics where the PCB was built at Circuit Services. There&#039;s still the Coca-Cola bottling plant but I think it&#039;s mostly a distribution center now. I don&#039;t remember when the candy factory closed down (the site of the current Lowes) but it was recent history compared to blueberry farming. There&#039;s a lot of small light industrial like HVAC contractors and where do you go if you want a trailer hitch actually welded. In the City redevelopment plans they refer to the area as a major source of employment. It&#039;s about the only area where traditional blue collar jobs predominate. It&#039;s not pretty. In large part it&#039;s the dirty under belly that all cities require to function.

I&#039;m OK with change. I&#039;d &lt;i&gt;like&lt;/i&gt; to see the city advocate for more light industry; green collar jobs, high tech manufacturing, &lt;i&gt;heavy maintenance facility for light rail and buses&lt;/i&gt;, etc. What I&#039;m against is footing the bill for large scale development. If the developers were fronting the quarter billion dollars extra it&#039;s going to cost for the D2 D3 options I&#039;d be a little more receptive to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Light industrial is not necessarily manufacturing but the Safeway Bread Plant is an example of something still &#8220;made in Belleuve&#8221;. There&#8217;s a good chance you&#8217;ve owned electronics where the PCB was built at Circuit Services. There&#8217;s still the Coca-Cola bottling plant but I think it&#8217;s mostly a distribution center now. I don&#8217;t remember when the candy factory closed down (the site of the current Lowes) but it was recent history compared to blueberry farming. There&#8217;s a lot of small light industrial like HVAC contractors and where do you go if you want a trailer hitch actually welded. In the City redevelopment plans they refer to the area as a major source of employment. It&#8217;s about the only area where traditional blue collar jobs predominate. It&#8217;s not pretty. In large part it&#8217;s the dirty under belly that all cities require to function.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m OK with change. I&#8217;d <i>like</i> to see the city advocate for more light industry; green collar jobs, high tech manufacturing, <i>heavy maintenance facility for light rail and buses</i>, etc. What I&#8217;m against is footing the bill for large scale development. If the developers were fronting the quarter billion dollars extra it&#8217;s going to cost for the D2 D3 options I&#8217;d be a little more receptive to it.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Martin H. Duke</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/02/18/bel-red-tod/#comment-30412</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin H. Duke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:35:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2806#comment-30412</guid>
		<description>Watch it, cjh</description>
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Watch it, cjh<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: cjh</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/02/18/bel-red-tod/#comment-30406</link>
		<dc:creator>cjh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:04:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2806#comment-30406</guid>
		<description>Light &lt;i&gt;industrial&lt;/i&gt;.  You are the only person who is using &quot;light manufacturing.&quot;  I know it will totally blow your mind, dude, but most light industrial areas are warehouses and other commercial enterprises that our zoning codes have deemed too noisy to co-exist with residential.  Also, there are plenty of active light industrial businesses in the Bel-Red corridor but you seem to want to write them out of history as much as Bernie wants to overplay their importance.  Bad faith argument against bad faith argument, I wish you&#039;d find some way of destroying one another... like matter and anti-matter.</description>
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Light <i>industrial</i>.  You are the only person who is using &#8220;light manufacturing.&#8221;  I know it will totally blow your mind, dude, but most light industrial areas are warehouses and other commercial enterprises that our zoning codes have deemed too noisy to co-exist with residential.  Also, there are plenty of active light industrial businesses in the Bel-Red corridor but you seem to want to write them out of history as much as Bernie wants to overplay their importance.  Bad faith argument against bad faith argument, I wish you&#8217;d find some way of destroying one another&#8230; like matter and anti-matter.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: cjh</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/02/18/bel-red-tod/#comment-30396</link>
		<dc:creator>cjh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:43:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2806#comment-30396</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not talking about those sorts of businesses that more or less require street frontage, you decrepit hobbyist.  You do seem to finally get that decaying mind of yours around what I&#039;m saying later but then dismiss it as unimportant.  I take it that you never noticed that the densest &quot;residential&quot; parts of Manhattan, by the by, tend toward that 8-12 story mark.

Also, it&#039;s nice that your high power clients were flying in from across the country, honey; destroying the ozone layer and belching CO2 into the air just so they could take the elevator to your office so you could pay for your new HO set.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I&#8217;m not talking about those sorts of businesses that more or less require street frontage, you decrepit hobbyist.  You do seem to finally get that decaying mind of yours around what I&#8217;m saying later but then dismiss it as unimportant.  I take it that you never noticed that the densest &#8220;residential&#8221; parts of Manhattan, by the by, tend toward that 8-12 story mark.</p>
<p>Also, it&#8217;s nice that your high power clients were flying in from across the country, honey; destroying the ozone layer and belching CO2 into the air just so they could take the elevator to your office so you could pay for your new HO set.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Bernie</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/02/18/bel-red-tod/#comment-30382</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:02:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2806#comment-30382</guid>
		<description>Using the 2007 PSRC study ridership for ESR would be equal to the segment boardings for the Bel-Red segment and total cost Renton to Snohomish including the Woodinville to Redmond spur for passenger rail, increased freight capacity and a regional trail system would be half the cost of the Bel-Red light rail segment. 40 miles of rail going through every major city on the eastside serves many more people than 3.5 miles of track through Bel-Red.

Nobody really knows what the total cost and ridership would end up being for East Link but the DEIS and the 2007 PSRC study are the play book sound transit is reading from. There could be huge differences in cost and ridership for both projects but here&#039;s a few key differences. The PRSR study is titled &quot;BNSF Corridor Preservation&quot;. Preserving an existing asset is completely different than creating something entirely new. If ESR fails as viable passenger service we&#039;re left with a regional trail system which would have been built anyway. The bike path is about a quarter of the budget. We&#039;re left with tracks that are repaired and continued affirmation that this is a rail corridor now and can be put back into service at any time in the future. If the rails are pulled up it&#039;s going to double the cost of the conversion to trail and once those rails are gone, rail bank or no, they&#039;re never coming back. The political fight would be akin to restoring rails on the Burke Gilman or East Lake Sammamish.

So, for an increment investment of around $100-150M (the amount over and above tearing up the rails and building the bike path) the Port of Seattle would be left with usable short line freight RR and the region would still have it&#039;s bike path and the option to revisit commuter rail in the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Using the 2007 PSRC study ridership for ESR would be equal to the segment boardings for the Bel-Red segment and total cost Renton to Snohomish including the Woodinville to Redmond spur for passenger rail, increased freight capacity and a regional trail system would be half the cost of the Bel-Red light rail segment. 40 miles of rail going through every major city on the eastside serves many more people than 3.5 miles of track through Bel-Red.</p>
<p>Nobody really knows what the total cost and ridership would end up being for East Link but the DEIS and the 2007 PSRC study are the play book sound transit is reading from. There could be huge differences in cost and ridership for both projects but here&#8217;s a few key differences. The PRSR study is titled &#8220;BNSF Corridor Preservation&#8221;. Preserving an existing asset is completely different than creating something entirely new. If ESR fails as viable passenger service we&#8217;re left with a regional trail system which would have been built anyway. The bike path is about a quarter of the budget. We&#8217;re left with tracks that are repaired and continued affirmation that this is a rail corridor now and can be put back into service at any time in the future. If the rails are pulled up it&#8217;s going to double the cost of the conversion to trail and once those rails are gone, rail bank or no, they&#8217;re never coming back. The political fight would be akin to restoring rails on the Burke Gilman or East Lake Sammamish.</p>
<p>So, for an increment investment of around $100-150M (the amount over and above tearing up the rails and building the bike path) the Port of Seattle would be left with usable short line freight RR and the region would still have it&#8217;s bike path and the option to revisit commuter rail in the future.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: serial catowner</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/02/18/bel-red-tod/#comment-30379</link>
		<dc:creator>serial catowner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2806#comment-30379</guid>
		<description>Having grown up in Bellevue, it constantly amazes me to say they have done a great job in growing their city, and that I have complete confidence in their plans for the Bel-Red corridor.

As for the idea that there is &quot;light manufacturing&quot; that will be displaced, get a grip.  What was the last product you bought that was labeled &quot;Made in Bellevue&quot;?  Thats right- &lt;i&gt;blueberries&lt;/i&gt;.  (For the benefit of younger readers, a &lt;i&gt;blueberry&lt;/i&gt; is not some kind of telephone, it is a fruit you eat.)  And no, the Safeway plant was not a manufacturing facility- they might have made some corn syrup into soda pop, but mainly they unloaded freight cars onto trucks.

I was out there a few years ago and, as for most of my life, the area remained a mish-mash of failing and failed one and two-story sprawl development, with some &quot;anchor&quot; retail like Trader Joe&#039;s and increasing amounts of white-collar offices.  As a manufacturing district, which it never was, it&#039;s a slum, as a gentrifying area it&#039;s up-and-coming, which is as it should be, considering the location.

TOD in the Bel-Red Corridor is, in short, an idea whose time has come.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Having grown up in Bellevue, it constantly amazes me to say they have done a great job in growing their city, and that I have complete confidence in their plans for the Bel-Red corridor.</p>
<p>As for the idea that there is &#8220;light manufacturing&#8221; that will be displaced, get a grip.  What was the last product you bought that was labeled &#8220;Made in Bellevue&#8221;?  Thats right- <i>blueberries</i>.  (For the benefit of younger readers, a <i>blueberry</i> is not some kind of telephone, it is a fruit you eat.)  And no, the Safeway plant was not a manufacturing facility- they might have made some corn syrup into soda pop, but mainly they unloaded freight cars onto trucks.</p>
<p>I was out there a few years ago and, as for most of my life, the area remained a mish-mash of failing and failed one and two-story sprawl development, with some &#8220;anchor&#8221; retail like Trader Joe&#8217;s and increasing amounts of white-collar offices.  As a manufacturing district, which it never was, it&#8217;s a slum, as a gentrifying area it&#8217;s up-and-coming, which is as it should be, considering the location.</p>
<p>TOD in the Bel-Red Corridor is, in short, an idea whose time has come.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Smith</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/02/18/bel-red-tod/#comment-30374</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:22:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2806#comment-30374</guid>
		<description>Well there is a starbucks on the 50th floor of the columbia center, but there&#039;s also a dozen or so business on the ground level.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Well there is a starbucks on the 50th floor of the columbia center, but there&#8217;s also a dozen or so business on the ground level.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: serial catowner</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/02/18/bel-red-tod/#comment-30372</link>
		<dc:creator>serial catowner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:12:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=2806#comment-30372</guid>
		<description>Now this is just silly.  I worked in NYC and our 54 story building did not have delis at the 34th story level.  The whole building ordered out to streetfront delis, as did the rest of the block. and guess what, those delis did a land-office business.

The same thing was true of haberdasheries, bookstores, bars, etc.  And conversely, Sam Meyer&#039;s Agency representing singers and dancers didn&#039;t need or want a streetfront, they did just fine at the 22nd or 36th story of the building they were in.  Our own clients flew in from Milwaukee and Chicago to buy national ad campaigns, they didn&#039;t come in off the street because they liked our display or location.

Skyscrapers provide huge numbers of customers for streetlevel businesses selling sandwiches, shirts, and liquor by the drink.  The Top of the Mark does nothing to change this basic equation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Now this is just silly.  I worked in NYC and our 54 story building did not have delis at the 34th story level.  The whole building ordered out to streetfront delis, as did the rest of the block. and guess what, those delis did a land-office business.</p>
<p>The same thing was true of haberdasheries, bookstores, bars, etc.  And conversely, Sam Meyer&#8217;s Agency representing singers and dancers didn&#8217;t need or want a streetfront, they did just fine at the 22nd or 36th story of the building they were in.  Our own clients flew in from Milwaukee and Chicago to buy national ad campaigns, they didn&#8217;t come in off the street because they liked our display or location.</p>
<p>Skyscrapers provide huge numbers of customers for streetlevel businesses selling sandwiches, shirts, and liquor by the drink.  The Top of the Mark does nothing to change this basic equation.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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