So along that vein, yeah, Harborview already has a ton of bus service; if Yesler Terrace is redeveloped appropriately, I’d love to see the 3/4 go up Yesler and then turn north to serve Harborview, rather than getting trapped in the freeway mess they currently do as they go up the hill. And again, with the loop route you’re still 5 minutes’ walk from Harborview.

And again – one of the primary advantages for streetcars from the City’s perspective is development potential. You have that on 12th. You don’t have nearly as much of it on Broadway or Boren. I recognize there are transit rider benefits to a streetcar line, when implemented properly, vs. a bus line.

Couplets are directly adjacent to each other, not 3+ blocks apart. That difference is huge in terms of usability. Walking one extra block is not that big a deal, walking 3 extra blocks can be a tipping point. I know this sounds insignificant, but in transit planning, the little things make a very big difference in terms of usability.

More importantly, couplets are often done on streets that are already one-way couplets for cars. This means both streets are prime targets for commercial development. Both streets are effectively “main streets” and they are tightly integrated. The two streets are essentially one street with a median in the middle that has buildings built on in it.

Broadway and 12th are not tightly integrated the way pike and pine are. Broadway and 12th are two fully independent two-way streets. Transit should match the flow of cars. If the cars flow one-way in a couplet, then you can split the transit line. If the cars flow two ways, transit should do the same. Otherwise you make transit a second class citizen in the transportation world and that is exactly what got us into the mess we’re in today.

It also substantially undermines the effectiveness of the streetcar in doing its #1 task, which is to define the street scape. Businesses lose the motivation to be “close to the line” because now, no property is “close to the line”, only close to half the line, which doesn’t count.

The loop concept is pushed often by seniors and other members of transit dependent groups that have far more time than physical ability. Essentially, if you are elderly, retired, not in a hurry and walking 3 blocks is really hard, you don’t mind waiting another 15 minutes to ride all the way around the loop to get dropped off at the stop closest to your destination.

This does not work for people who have limited amounts of time, which is 99% of “choice riders” i.e. the people who could otherwise drive. The transit dependent will ride transit no matter how bad the service is. Choice riders demand time-competitive service. That’s why we’re building Link in the first place! If the idea is to “compensate” for the loss of the first hill station, the streetcar needs to be as fast, direct and frequent as possible, no meandering, no stopping every 2 blocks.

Buses are a better vehicle to serve the transit dependent population. They provide the most flexibility and “pencil” at smaller loads. Light Rail, and the streetcar should be about attracting new markets with higher ridership potential, and that means choice riders, which means fast, direct, frequent and bi-direction.

Also, how much of a problem is water? Doesn’t the weight of the trolley pretty much squeeze out the water and maintain steel to steel contact?

How did the old Yesler Way route operate, was it actually a cable car?

FWIW I looked the topo map and a rough estimate for the average grade worked out to 7.2%. I’m quite sure that would put the maximum at something over 8% so this is a real issue. Is there regrading work planned? That might take care of the traction issue and provide grade separation to improve system travel times.

After the presentation, Ethan Melone wrote in an email that Inekon, the manufacturer of the SLU streetcar, states that their streetcar can operate on gradients up to 9 percent. Later, a Seattle Public Utilities re-survey found the gradient to be about 8.7 percent.

This is a gradient the streetcar can barely manage-in good weather. But in rainy or snowy weather, the rails will be slippery. Sand can’t be used to improve traction because it electrically insulates the streetcar wheels from the tracks. That cuts the power to the streetcar. Also, the sand accumulates in the rail groove causing the wheels to derail. Practically speaking, the tracks on Boren Ave. would be unusable during inclement weather. A trolleybus would need to substitute during these times. But if you have to run a trolleybus part of the time, why not run a trolleybus all of the time. It sure would save money.

All those advocating for tracks on E 12th Ave. have a good argument. At the original City Council Transportation Committee meeting for the First Hill streetcar line, everyone that spoke on the route suggested running on E 12th Ave. Then Union Ave. could be used to connect E 12th with Broadway. E 12th is ripe for re-development. Broadway has been mostly redeveloped.

I hope the public transportation problems of this past winter have not been forgotten. In my view, a streetcar line is best on E 12th and a trolleybus line on Boren (to keep Sound Transit happy). Otherwise, it’s “slip, slidin’ away” on Boren.

You say people get health problems sometimes. Sure they do, but a ton of people even work in hospitals all the time.

You can go to SF and ride a streetcar up a steeper hill than the south end of Boren.

The big thing on this route is to get as close to the hospitals as they can. Yeah, I know young people are all like “Can it go past the bars?”, but hospitals are big businesses, institutions that have outlasted everything else on the hill, and a lot of people going to them have, y’know, health problems which make it desirable to make it as easy as possible for wheelchair users and people who have trouble walking.

Once again, it seems entirely obvious that this trolley should connect with a waterfront trolley running at least as far as Pier 90 where the cruise ships will dock. I guess we need to honor George Benson by making some noise.

Seriously, I would choose rail over buses, especially if I had to stand. Rail has a smoother ride and is more predictable with turns. My arms and legs ache after trying to stay balanced on a crowded, jerky, and bumpy 73 in the articulated section.

If the question is how to meet that need, is your answer honestly a streetcar? Or more specifically, is it a streetcar as currently implemented in South Lake Union?

One of the drawbacks of the SLUT is that it makes legitimate streetcar implementations overcome the stigma this a wasteful endeavor. Seattle would never have built this line if they hadn’t been given half of the money from Paul Allen. 50% of isn’t a great deal if you didn’t need the thing in the first place. South Lake Union is going to take 10-15 years to develop and in the mean time the City is on the hook to the tune of over $2M a year to provide service which promotes this development. Paul Allen is a savvy businessman.

That said, maybe the City can make lemonade from this lemon by stealing two of the trams to accelerate the opening of the Pill Hill Express. (OK, a streetcar isn’t much of an Express but it sort of rhymes with Boot Hill Express… oops, that’s probably not a good connotation seeing as how this primarily serves hospitals ;-)