This is an unofficial poll I am conducting to see if people would be interested in a user fee to support a second and third Amtrak Cascades train to Vancouver BC. This fee would be used to pay for the train and the Canadian border patrol services. The fee would not be valid for those traveling between Seattle and Bellingham. Only passengers going to Canada would be required to pay the extra fee.
Please, vote and forward this off to anyone whom you know and would be interested in taking the Amtrak Cascades to Vancouver BC.
Totally. I will be doing this run this Friday.
Wording seems odd to me. Does “Less than $10″ mean $9.99?
I would pay twice as much to go up NOT at 7:45am. Is that an option?
While I would pay this fee myself, it seems only fare (haha) to me
that the same fee per person be charged for those traveling by car
across the border.
Precisely. Visitors by bus, air, ferry and auto are NOT being charged this fee. I shall avoid visiting Vancouver, BC until the city, BC and Ottawa governments figure out that it is not in their best interests (economically, environmentally or in any other way) to continue even discussion of such a fee.
I agree with you sentiments Llyod. The fee seems very short sighted. Perhaps the whole matter should be addressed via a nominal toll at the border crossing. Every car pays a quarter or 50-cents. I don’t have the numbers to support it, but I would be willing to venture a guess that a small toll on cars would more than cover the costs for an added train…
The question shouldn’t be if you would support or pay for a fee, the question should be SHOULD there be a fee on this trip? The clear answer is no. Clipper doesn’t pay fees for extra routes, Alaska Air doesn’t increase fees when they add flights, and car travelers don’t ever pay fees period. The B.C. government is shooting themselves in the foot here. This is an economic development tool that they are letting get caught up on bureaucracy. It is estimated every train between BC and Seattle brings in over $2 million in GST alone, yet they don’t want to pay out $500,000 for some border costs, its crazy. Good point Dang, if they are going to charge for train passengers than start charging a dollar per car to pay for costs, I want to see how elected leaders on both sides of the border would react if that was proposed.
It should be noted that airline passengers do take it in the rear when travelling to or from the USA “internationally”. The fee is called the U.S. Immigration Fee and lat I checked it is US$7.00. However, surface travellers (road/rail/water) have never had this fee implemented upon them, though the then-U.S. Customs tried to do so with water crossings in 1993 (I should know as I arranged a coalition to fight it).
What is blatently stupid about this proposal is that Canada Border Services Agency/L’Agence des services frontaliers du Canada has plenty of staff in the Vancouver area to handle this assignment.
I could perhaps understand if the clearence happened in a small town like Carson BC/Danville, WA:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=danville,+wa&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&split=0&gl=us&ei=9HbrSaDyDprEtAPK2rnqAQ&ll=48.99351,-118.508234&spn=0.029172,0.051413&t=h&z=14
But of course it doesn’t.
And besides, Carson/Danville is open 7 days a week from 8am to Midnight!:
http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/contact/listing/offices/office562-e.html
Not too far from Pacific Central station in Vancouver, BC is a facility called “YVR-Vancouver International Airport” where CBSA/ASFC “proh-cess” 10 to 20,000 people a day, 24/7. And then there is an outfit called “Port Metro Vancouver” which is also staffed 24/7 with immigration service capable of clearing the gigantic cruise ships that call with a vengence at Jones-Act-friendly Canada Place.
(I gather there is some sort of frequent and reliable rail transit from Canada Place to Vancouver-Pacific Central Station???)
And Ottawa does seem to have the cash to help in the staffing of, for example, YTZ-the Toronto City Centre airport…:
http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/media/nr/2009/nr20090330-eng.aspx
…which is served by only one carrier, the Tyler Brule-hip and none too available-to-the-masses Porter Airlines:
http://www.flyporter.com/fly/Search.aspx?culture=en-CA
(Cheapest Toronto-Chicago RT I could find for this summer was CDN$315)
“Environmentally-friendly Canada” my ass!
As someone in Vancouver, I think it would be great to have more trains between our two cities. It would be nice to start with 2, one leaving each city in the morning and returning in the evening. The schedule already has 2 trains leaving Seattle heading North a day, but the evening one terminates in Bellingham. Why not send it all the way to Vancouver? It would be nice to have trains running so that I could get to Seattle in the morning and see a baseball, football, or soccer game without having to spend 2 nights because of the schedule.
The Skytrain rapid transit operates between Canada Place and Pacific Central. Only 3 stops between the two. And the new Canada Line Rapid Transit will be running from Canada Place to the YVR airport starting September.
But that is not the problem. The train passes within a few meters of the Peace Arch border crossing. The customs does not need to be done in Vancouver, but can be done on train stopped at the border.
I could see paying the fee if it meant there was added convienience. Like if there were customs agents stationed on the train and started doing customs checks the minute the train left Bellingham all the way into Vancouver. Then the train would not need to stop, shaving off lots of time. Then a final how-do-you-do can be done at the station (just to make sure we didn’t miss anyone). And the same can be done on the way into the USA.
A similar service is used on the Choho ferry from Victoria to Port Angeles. US customs agents are stationed in Canada and do pre-screenings of passengers in the parking lot and on the ferry before and during crossing before you go through an official border crossing in Washington.
Erik sez:
“And Ottawa does seem to have the cash to help in the staffing of, for example, YTZ-the Toronto City Centre airport…:
http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/media/nr/2009/nr20090330-eng.aspx
…which is served by only one carrier, the Tyler Brule-hip and none too available-to-the-masses Porter Airlines:
http://www.flyporter.com/fly/Search.aspx?culture=en-CA”
Porter is as accessible to anybody, masses or not, as any other airline — better than many. I’m looking at round trip fares for summer days picked at random and I’m seeing $99 – $100 (before taxes and fees), provided you book early enough. Don’t pull the “Porter is elitist” crap — it (unlike Porter) doesn’t fly.
My understanding is the problem isn’t the provincial government in BC but the Canadian Federal Government. Sure the BC government in theory could cover the fees but it is the Canadian Government demanding the cost of servicing the crossing be paid.
I have to take exception to your ” car travelers don’t ever pay fees period” statement. When renewing tags you pay reg fee, weight fee, filing fee, service fee, RTA fees, local transpo district fees, 37.5 cents per gallon state + 18.4 cents per gallon federal, use fees (tolls), parking fees and those are just what I can think of off the top of my head.
He obviously was talking about fees for crossing the border, of which there are none.
Think of it this way. Suppose you live near the end of the line on, say, Metro Route 71 and you get off work at 11:30 PM. Suppose, once the bus turned right on NE 65th street the driver pulled over and came through to get everyone’s extra US$15 fare. The ONLY people to be asked for that fare are late night riders on the 71. Not the 72 or the 73, not cars, nobody else. That is in essence what CBSA is proposing for travelers on the proposed northbound evening train from Seattle to Vancouver, BC. Other train riders that arrive in Montreal and Toronto in the evening are not required to pay this fee, ONLY those off this one train. Other visitors arriving by any other means in Vancouver will not also be required to pay this fee nor will folks arriving around noon on the morning train from Seattle. Can it be any more clear how ridiculous and discriminatory this is?
You can add insurance and capital cost of buying the car (including sales tax that goes to transit). Maintenance; more sales tax. Just a few more I can think of off the top of my head.
There are no fees for cars to enter British Columbia.
Well yes I would support a fee if this is the only way of funding additional trains to and from Seattle to Vancouver. It is kind of like the airlines charging these days for additional luggage or Ryan Air in Europe wanting to charge extra for using an onboard toilet on their flights! It also brings to mind tolling bridges etc – all just ways of paying for things where costs would otherwise be prohibitive of the thing happening.
Brian, is this your idea by the way or is this being seriously floated out there? I’m all for creative ways of raising revenue to cover shortages and if this is the only way of getting this thing up and running, I don’t have a serious problem with it.
I do think, though, that if they go down this route, they should do something about the track speeds to make people feel happier.
Maybe, we could another daytime service to Spokane if your idea catches fire?
Tim
Tim- You missed the point – the Canadian Government will NOT be supporting the train with this fee in any way shape or form! It is a discriminatory fee levied on one small group of visitors to the exclusion of all others arriving by all other means of transport, including trains, at all points of entry to Canada.
Well that is not in Brian’s post – he asked us to vote on whether we would pay an additional fee on top of the regular fare and I voted yes. I have no idea and Brian’s post doesn’t say whether the Canadians would do their part or not if we all paid a border fee.
There is clearly a lot of politics going on here and clearly the Canadian and US Border authorities need to come to some agreement on the best way to handle the situation. The demand is there from what I can piece together to use a second and third train, now we need the political will to go with it. Oh, and the track improvements I understand have been made. You say it is a discriminatory fee levied on train passengers “to the exclusion of all others arriving by all other means of transport, including trains, at all points of entry to Canada” (Your words). Do you mean that only train passengers between Washington State and Canada would be paying as opposed to those entering by other train routes (you can get to Toronto from New York I believe)?
Either way, for the moment, we have a unique problem here that we need to solve. It is clearly stupid that there is only one train a day between the two major cities of Seattle and Vancouver and it is clearly unfortunate that funding is a sticking point. If we can free this knot by saying we would be prepared to pay $10-$15 extra, then so be it. Kind of like an airport charge or an extra baggage charge. It is just like a tax and if the result is worth the taxing for, then I am willing to pay it.
Tim
The USA (INS/Customs or whatever branch of DHS is now) happily clears a train every day at about the same time of the day as the train to Canada would need clearance going north.
The principle is there and kicking in $10-$15 per passenger as you suggest is not a good way to jump-start a local implementation of a federal (Canadian) public policy.
No, the Maple Leaf (NYC-Buffalo-Toronto) passenger does not pay a fee to cross Niagara Falls; nor does the Adirondack (NYC-Montreal) passenger and neither the morning Seattle to Vancouver, BC Cascades passenger. Why should we? What service is being provided that is not provided FOR FREE to thousands of other northbound (southbound from Detroit!) trans-border surface-travelers each day by Canada Border Services Agency/L’Agence des services frontaliers du Canada??
Have you by chance read the press release I posted in an above comment?
http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/media/nr/2009/nr20090330-eng.asp
The Minister announced that the CBSA will be providing new levels of publicly funded services at the following airports: Toronto City Centre Airport, Deer Lake Regional Airport, Saskatoon John G. Diefenbaker International Airport and Regina International Airport. In addition, two other airports are receiving expanded services. The details will be announced shortly.
These investments are being made under the provisions of the CBSA’s new Air Services Policy Framework that will come into effect on April 1, 2009.
“Our government recognizes the importance of extending publicly funded border services at these strategic airports and is taking action to improve border operations by providing a service delivery approach that is fair, transparent and flexible,” added the Minister. “These measures will contribute to regional economic development by improving the competitiveness of Canada’s airports.”
http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/media/nr/2009/nr20090330-eng.aspx
Canada can clear airplanes, ships and rubber-wheeled vehicles 24/7 but not trains??
(Of course, why two countries with similar societies, histories and as alike the USA and Canada even have any border controls between each other at all, when for example, France and Germany and Poland no longer do, is a topic for another day)
Perhaps it would be more realistic to see if there are monies available from the tourist authorities up there or the transportation district, since this would be both promoting tourism and reducing cars on the road.
Raising a fee is bad not only for the discriminatory policies cited above, but because it would be a disincentive to take the train up. I paid $30 to ride up one-way a few weeks back. I can drive round-trip for around $50-90 (depending upon how one wants to calculate wear and tear or insurance for a personal vehicle).
You start to raise the fares too much, and why would anyone bother? Except perhaps to avoid a wait to cross the border?