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	<title>Comments on: Balkanization and Light Rail</title>
	<atom:link href="http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/19/balkanization-and-light-rail/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/19/balkanization-and-light-rail/</link>
	<description>Transit in the Greater Seattle Area</description>
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		<title>By: cjh</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/19/balkanization-and-light-rail/#comment-57096</link>
		<dc:creator>cjh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:07:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6527#comment-57096</guid>
		<description>Well, it&#039;s certainly an egotistical and self-centered thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Well, it&#8217;s certainly an egotistical and self-centered thing.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: cjh</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/19/balkanization-and-light-rail/#comment-57091</link>
		<dc:creator>cjh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:02:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6527#comment-57091</guid>
		<description>Nice carbon footprint.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Nice carbon footprint.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Seattle Waterfront Homes</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/19/balkanization-and-light-rail/#comment-56522</link>
		<dc:creator>Seattle Waterfront Homes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 05:25:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6527#comment-56522</guid>
		<description>Good analysis of the situation, we definitely need some better transit in Seattle.  I go out of my way to spend time in different neighborhoods, but the traffic can be brutal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Good analysis of the situation, we definitely need some better transit in Seattle.  I go out of my way to spend time in different neighborhoods, but the traffic can be brutal.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: in other blogs: pure wolf party on rails &#124; Seattle Metblogs</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/19/balkanization-and-light-rail/#comment-56375</link>
		<dc:creator>in other blogs: pure wolf party on rails &#124; Seattle Metblogs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 00:51:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6527#comment-56375</guid>
		<description>[...] Though some grump that we&#8217;re still not a grown-up city [crosscut]; most of Seattle is excited about light rail&#8217;s opening weekend [hound, chs, etc], seeing it as a step against neighborhood balkanization [seattletransitblog]. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
[...] Though some grump that we&#8217;re still not a grown-up city [crosscut]; most of Seattle is excited about light rail&#8217;s opening weekend [hound, chs, etc], seeing it as a step against neighborhood balkanization [seattletransitblog]. [...]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: geekgirl</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/19/balkanization-and-light-rail/#comment-56187</link>
		<dc:creator>geekgirl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6527#comment-56187</guid>
		<description>This is something to consider when we talk about neighborhood zoning, walkable neighborhoods and those types of issues.  I like that I live within walking distance of two grocery stores, 6 coffee shops, my hairdresser, a thrift store, and a library.  But my parents in their tiny town on the Oregon coast also live within walking distance of those same types of amenities. (Except there are fewer coffee shops!)  The reason I live in the city (aside from just being able to go to school here) is the diversity of people and places and experiences.  In strict environmental terms, it would be better to walk to a nearby restaurant than drive to one in another neighborhood that has a different type of cuisine.  But hardly anyone is going to be willing to sacrifice the pleasure of trying new food and meeting new people for the sake of the environment.  So when we envision a best-case, green, urban future, we have to consider that people are going to want to go everywhere from everywhere and see as much of the city as possible, and recognize that as a wonderful thing!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
This is something to consider when we talk about neighborhood zoning, walkable neighborhoods and those types of issues.  I like that I live within walking distance of two grocery stores, 6 coffee shops, my hairdresser, a thrift store, and a library.  But my parents in their tiny town on the Oregon coast also live within walking distance of those same types of amenities. (Except there are fewer coffee shops!)  The reason I live in the city (aside from just being able to go to school here) is the diversity of people and places and experiences.  In strict environmental terms, it would be better to walk to a nearby restaurant than drive to one in another neighborhood that has a different type of cuisine.  But hardly anyone is going to be willing to sacrifice the pleasure of trying new food and meeting new people for the sake of the environment.  So when we envision a best-case, green, urban future, we have to consider that people are going to want to go everywhere from everywhere and see as much of the city as possible, and recognize that as a wonderful thing!<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/19/balkanization-and-light-rail/#comment-56141</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:26:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6527#comment-56141</guid>
		<description>Oh, yeah, there&#039;s like a 15-20% grade for part of it. Perhaps an aerial tram?</description>
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Oh, yeah, there&#8217;s like a 15-20% grade for part of it. Perhaps an aerial tram?<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/19/balkanization-and-light-rail/#comment-56139</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:25:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6527#comment-56139</guid>
		<description>I think the key is wait time. Even if the train takes longer, the decreased wait time probably makes up for it. When U-Link opens you&#039;ll probably be talking five minutes anyway.</description>
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I think the key is wait time. Even if the train takes longer, the decreased wait time probably makes up for it. When U-Link opens you&#8217;ll probably be talking five minutes anyway.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/19/balkanization-and-light-rail/#comment-56138</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:21:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6527#comment-56138</guid>
		<description>I was there in 2002-2003.

That parking lot makes me sad. Maybe we&#039;ll eventually have a subway station there to spur redevelopment. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I was there in 2002-2003.</p>
<p>That parking lot makes me sad. Maybe we&#8217;ll eventually have a subway station there to spur redevelopment. :)<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/19/balkanization-and-light-rail/#comment-56124</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:58:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6527#comment-56124</guid>
		<description>I believe there used to be a cable car all the way out Madison from Downtown. Due to how steep the hills are I&#039;m not sure even a modern streetcar could handle the grade without some sort of counter-balance or cog system.

Personally I&#039;d vote for bringing back the cable car but I doubt that will happen.</description>
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I believe there used to be a cable car all the way out Madison from Downtown. Due to how steep the hills are I&#8217;m not sure even a modern streetcar could handle the grade without some sort of counter-balance or cog system.</p>
<p>Personally I&#8217;d vote for bringing back the cable car but I doubt that will happen.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/19/balkanization-and-light-rail/#comment-56120</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:54:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6527#comment-56120</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure how long a trip from UW station to Columbia City is supposed to take on Link but I bet it will seem faster than taking the 48 or taking a bus downtown then taking the 42 or 7.

Certainly riding link end to end this weekend didn&#039;t feel the same as a 35 minute bus trip.

Besides Link will reliably get you to Columbia City in the same amount of time no matter what time of day or what the traffic is like. The 48 is notorious for not keeping to schedule and the 42 and 7 can be almost as bad during peak periods.</description>
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I&#8217;m not sure how long a trip from UW station to Columbia City is supposed to take on Link but I bet it will seem faster than taking the 48 or taking a bus downtown then taking the 42 or 7.</p>
<p>Certainly riding link end to end this weekend didn&#8217;t feel the same as a 35 minute bus trip.</p>
<p>Besides Link will reliably get you to Columbia City in the same amount of time no matter what time of day or what the traffic is like. The 48 is notorious for not keeping to schedule and the 42 and 7 can be almost as bad during peak periods.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/19/balkanization-and-light-rail/#comment-56118</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:48:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6527#comment-56118</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d love to see more streetcars, both as a general transportation solution and as a feeder to Link.

That said, I believe due to the existing heavy traffic in the corridor, a Ballard to U-District transit line should really be a mostly grade separated route built to Link standards. Given the physical and political realities along the corridor, if it is built it is likely to be in a subway through downtown Ballard, Wallingford and the U-District. Given the stop spacing elsewhere on Link there is likely to be only one stop between Wallingford and 15th NW which means it might be possible to put a stop in Freemont rather than at 45th and Aurora. On the other hand 45th/Market between Wallingford and 15th NW is also the only segment where you could likely get away with either an elevated or at-grade alignment so cost may preclude serving Fremont directly.

Furthermore I believe there needs to be a HCT corridor running roughly in the same alignment as the Green Line of the Seattle Monorail had proposed. IOW some future stage of Link or rapid streetcar needs to go from downtown to the Seattle Center and Lower Queen Anne, Ballard, and possibly Crown Hill. Similarly there needs to be some form of rail service to at least the West Seattle Junction from downtown.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I&#8217;d love to see more streetcars, both as a general transportation solution and as a feeder to Link.</p>
<p>That said, I believe due to the existing heavy traffic in the corridor, a Ballard to U-District transit line should really be a mostly grade separated route built to Link standards. Given the physical and political realities along the corridor, if it is built it is likely to be in a subway through downtown Ballard, Wallingford and the U-District. Given the stop spacing elsewhere on Link there is likely to be only one stop between Wallingford and 15th NW which means it might be possible to put a stop in Freemont rather than at 45th and Aurora. On the other hand 45th/Market between Wallingford and 15th NW is also the only segment where you could likely get away with either an elevated or at-grade alignment so cost may preclude serving Fremont directly.</p>
<p>Furthermore I believe there needs to be a HCT corridor running roughly in the same alignment as the Green Line of the Seattle Monorail had proposed. IOW some future stage of Link or rapid streetcar needs to go from downtown to the Seattle Center and Lower Queen Anne, Ballard, and possibly Crown Hill. Similarly there needs to be some form of rail service to at least the West Seattle Junction from downtown.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/19/balkanization-and-light-rail/#comment-56112</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:36:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6527#comment-56112</guid>
		<description>Actually that wasn&#039;t a streetcar line but a railroad spur for serving the warehouse and industrial area SLU used to be.

Still the ROW should still be available and might be a better solution than a curb-lane streetcar along Westlake. That still leaves routing the streetcar through Fremont and Ballard though.

I would hope most of the future streetcar lines use a center lane or median routing if they can&#039;t be put in their own ROW. The curb lane routing doesn&#039;t play well with the cyclists and some of the proposed streetcar routes are heavily used bicycle routes as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Actually that wasn&#8217;t a streetcar line but a railroad spur for serving the warehouse and industrial area SLU used to be.</p>
<p>Still the ROW should still be available and might be a better solution than a curb-lane streetcar along Westlake. That still leaves routing the streetcar through Fremont and Ballard though.</p>
<p>I would hope most of the future streetcar lines use a center lane or median routing if they can&#8217;t be put in their own ROW. The curb lane routing doesn&#8217;t play well with the cyclists and some of the proposed streetcar routes are heavily used bicycle routes as well.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/19/balkanization-and-light-rail/#comment-56110</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:23:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6527#comment-56110</guid>
		<description>While MLK was hardly the &quot;wall&quot; I-5 is it was at least a bit like Aurora, which DOES act like a barrier in North Seattle, before it was rebuilt for Link. In many sections it had no sidewalks and no signal controlled intersections for pedestrians, bikes, or cars to cross. Drivers sped along well in excess of the speed limit with no regard for any cross traffic.

This weekend was the first time in 5 years I had been on MLK South of Rainier. I was amazed at what a transformation the just the street improvements alone have made. It is much more pedestrian friendly than it ever was in the past.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
While MLK was hardly the &#8220;wall&#8221; I-5 is it was at least a bit like Aurora, which DOES act like a barrier in North Seattle, before it was rebuilt for Link. In many sections it had no sidewalks and no signal controlled intersections for pedestrians, bikes, or cars to cross. Drivers sped along well in excess of the speed limit with no regard for any cross traffic.</p>
<p>This weekend was the first time in 5 years I had been on MLK South of Rainier. I was amazed at what a transformation the just the street improvements alone have made. It is much more pedestrian friendly than it ever was in the past.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/19/balkanization-and-light-rail/#comment-56106</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:09:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6527#comment-56106</guid>
		<description>The good news is even this starter line should build quite a bit more support in the region for rail transit, especially in Seattle. Once U-Link opens in 2016 and North Link opens in 2020 that will be even more the case. Rising energy prices and worsening traffic congestion (not to mention more expensive parking) will do their part too.

A very good sign is the one neighborhood along North Link in a position to opposed increased density around their station actually supports it. Maybe not to the delusional levels pushed by Mr. Sisely, but they did ask to redo their neighborhood plan with the idea of including denser zoning.

If the voting was just in Seattle I have no doubt we could get the voters to pass a Ballard to West Seattle rail line even if the cost was around the same as Central Link+U-Link+North Link. The problem isn&#039;t the voters it is getting the tax authority from the legislature, preferably something other than a sales tax. In an ideal world I&#039;d call for a mix of congestion pricing/tolls, sales tax on gas, MVET, general property taxes, and LID/TIF for transit funding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
The good news is even this starter line should build quite a bit more support in the region for rail transit, especially in Seattle. Once U-Link opens in 2016 and North Link opens in 2020 that will be even more the case. Rising energy prices and worsening traffic congestion (not to mention more expensive parking) will do their part too.</p>
<p>A very good sign is the one neighborhood along North Link in a position to opposed increased density around their station actually supports it. Maybe not to the delusional levels pushed by Mr. Sisely, but they did ask to redo their neighborhood plan with the idea of including denser zoning.</p>
<p>If the voting was just in Seattle I have no doubt we could get the voters to pass a Ballard to West Seattle rail line even if the cost was around the same as Central Link+U-Link+North Link. The problem isn&#8217;t the voters it is getting the tax authority from the legislature, preferably something other than a sales tax. In an ideal world I&#8217;d call for a mix of congestion pricing/tolls, sales tax on gas, MVET, general property taxes, and LID/TIF for transit funding.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/19/balkanization-and-light-rail/#comment-56104</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:01:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6527#comment-56104</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s more than a few blocks, and it&#039;s a hill - and I mean Madison Park, too, there are businesses out at the end that should really have a streetcar loop!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
It&#8217;s more than a few blocks, and it&#8217;s a hill &#8211; and I mean Madison Park, too, there are businesses out at the end that should really have a streetcar loop!<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/19/balkanization-and-light-rail/#comment-56103</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:00:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6527#comment-56103</guid>
		<description>Hear, hear! We definitely need a streetcar network. We also need Link-ish transit from Ballard to West Seattle.

And yeah, it would be nice to have the streetcars in the center lane.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Hear, hear! We definitely need a streetcar network. We also need Link-ish transit from Ballard to West Seattle.</p>
<p>And yeah, it would be nice to have the streetcars in the center lane.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/19/balkanization-and-light-rail/#comment-56102</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:57:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6527#comment-56102</guid>
		<description>Mike, Forward Thrust went through Bel-Red/Overlake, not Crossroads.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/viriyincy/3488685623/sizes/o/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Mike, Forward Thrust went through Bel-Red/Overlake, not Crossroads.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/viriyincy/3488685623/sizes/o/" rel="nofollow">http://www.flickr.com/photos/viriyincy/3488685623/sizes/o/</a><!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/19/balkanization-and-light-rail/#comment-56101</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 13:54:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6527#comment-56101</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s overall residential density, which doesn&#039;t matter much. All that says is Kirkland has a few more housing units per acre than Bellevue does, spread across the whole city. All that really means is that a lot of Bellevue is very low density.

What matters here is node density - and Bellevue&#039;s got a dense downtown, and are rezoning bel-red to be high density mixed use as well.

The empty space and lawn in Bellevue isn&#039;t in the bel-red corridor or downtown, where the train is going.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
That&#8217;s overall residential density, which doesn&#8217;t matter much. All that says is Kirkland has a few more housing units per acre than Bellevue does, spread across the whole city. All that really means is that a lot of Bellevue is very low density.</p>
<p>What matters here is node density &#8211; and Bellevue&#8217;s got a dense downtown, and are rezoning bel-red to be high density mixed use as well.</p>
<p>The empty space and lawn in Bellevue isn&#8217;t in the bel-red corridor or downtown, where the train is going.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Zelbinian</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/19/balkanization-and-light-rail/#comment-56070</link>
		<dc:creator>Zelbinian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 07:54:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6527#comment-56070</guid>
		<description>Um. Of course it&#039;s political. It&#039;s always political when there are people involved, because different stakeholders want different things. 

Besides, it&#039;s not like there&#039;s The Golden Route and a criss-crossing of conspiracies knocked it off course here and there. There are always tradeoffs for planning *anything*, and they way the various options affect different groups of people are *always* part of the discussion and the solution.

Shorter comment: Welcome to the planet Earth.</description>
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Um. Of course it&#8217;s political. It&#8217;s always political when there are people involved, because different stakeholders want different things. </p>
<p>Besides, it&#8217;s not like there&#8217;s The Golden Route and a criss-crossing of conspiracies knocked it off course here and there. There are always tradeoffs for planning *anything*, and they way the various options affect different groups of people are *always* part of the discussion and the solution.</p>
<p>Shorter comment: Welcome to the planet Earth.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: CriticalWonk</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/19/balkanization-and-light-rail/#comment-56068</link>
		<dc:creator>CriticalWonk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 07:40:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6527#comment-56068</guid>
		<description>So as not to have to walk a few blocks down to the valley?  We&#039;ll see.  Once they get Jackson and Union squared away.</description>
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So as not to have to walk a few blocks down to the valley?  We&#8217;ll see.  Once they get Jackson and Union squared away.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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