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	<title>Comments on: The I-90 Fight Continues, And The State Is Losing</title>
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	<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/29/the-i-90-fight-continues-and-the-state-is-losing/</link>
	<description>Transit in the Greater Seattle Area</description>
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		<title>By: What Worries Me - Seattle Transit Blog</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/29/the-i-90-fight-continues-and-the-state-is-losing/#comment-63869</link>
		<dc:creator>What Worries Me - Seattle Transit Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 21:24:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6811#comment-63869</guid>
		<description>[...] interests not at all pleased with having to give up the express lanes on I-90, or that seek to extract transit funding for use on state road projects.  Moreover, there are still plenty of people who self-identify as [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
[...] interests not at all pleased with having to give up the express lanes on I-90, or that seek to extract transit funding for use on state road projects.  Moreover, there are still plenty of people who self-identify as [...]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Initial ridership numbers out for Central Link &#171; Musings of the Built Environment</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/29/the-i-90-fight-continues-and-the-state-is-losing/#comment-59356</link>
		<dc:creator>Initial ridership numbers out for Central Link &#171; Musings of the Built Environment</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 02:54:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6811#comment-59356</guid>
		<description>[...]  Over the next 15 years, the system will face oncoming hurdles, legal, fiscal, and social, particularly with East Link.  Yet the success of Central Link, Airport Link, and ultimately University Link will help flex a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
[...]  Over the next 15 years, the system will face oncoming hurdles, legal, fiscal, and social, particularly with East Link.  Yet the success of Central Link, Airport Link, and ultimately University Link will help flex a [...]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/29/the-i-90-fight-continues-and-the-state-is-losing/#comment-59151</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 19:33:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6811#comment-59151</guid>
		<description>I suspect if Sound Transit would have been allowed to run Link up a tunnel under Rainier Vista, Sound Transit would have had to pay for most of the vibration mitigation costs to UW buildings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I suspect if Sound Transit would have been allowed to run Link up a tunnel under Rainier Vista, Sound Transit would have had to pay for most of the vibration mitigation costs to UW buildings.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/29/the-i-90-fight-continues-and-the-state-is-losing/#comment-59150</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 19:30:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6811#comment-59150</guid>
		<description>Per-mile construction cost for PRT doesn&#039;t look any cheaper than it does for light rail, monorail, or BRT with exclusive ROW. Since PRT generally locks you into a single vendor and isn&#039;t exactly widespread I think it is best to go with something tried and true with a large number of vendors like light rail.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Per-mile construction cost for PRT doesn&#8217;t look any cheaper than it does for light rail, monorail, or BRT with exclusive ROW. Since PRT generally locks you into a single vendor and isn&#8217;t exactly widespread I think it is best to go with something tried and true with a large number of vendors like light rail.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/29/the-i-90-fight-continues-and-the-state-is-losing/#comment-59121</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 17:54:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6811#comment-59121</guid>
		<description>He&#039;s quite intentionally blurring that difference.

He&#039;s only talking about exclusive ROW on the highways. Most of the issues with bus unreliability happen on the surface streets, where it&#039;s VERY hard to get exclusive ROW.

These guys like to talk about things like a tunnel in Bellevue, but the cost of doing all that just ends up being the same as the cost of rail - with lower capacity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
He&#8217;s quite intentionally blurring that difference.</p>
<p>He&#8217;s only talking about exclusive ROW on the highways. Most of the issues with bus unreliability happen on the surface streets, where it&#8217;s VERY hard to get exclusive ROW.</p>
<p>These guys like to talk about things like a tunnel in Bellevue, but the cost of doing all that just ends up being the same as the cost of rail &#8211; with lower capacity.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/29/the-i-90-fight-continues-and-the-state-is-losing/#comment-59120</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 17:49:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6811#comment-59120</guid>
		<description>Whoa there. Capital projects and operating (like for TAs) come from totally different budgets. The UW has had wheelbarrows full of capital funds for the last couple of decades. Their operating budget is always tight, but the two things are separate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Whoa there. Capital projects and operating (like for TAs) come from totally different budgets. The UW has had wheelbarrows full of capital funds for the last couple of decades. Their operating budget is always tight, but the two things are separate.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Gary</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/29/the-i-90-fight-continues-and-the-state-is-losing/#comment-59114</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 17:14:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6811#comment-59114</guid>
		<description>Passing tracks for PRT are only necessary at stations. That&#039;s not a huge cost.

And again, I&#039;m only watching PRT, not advocating it everywhere. It looks great in theory. And soon we&#039;ll get to see how it works in practice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Passing tracks for PRT are only necessary at stations. That&#8217;s not a huge cost.</p>
<p>And again, I&#8217;m only watching PRT, not advocating it everywhere. It looks great in theory. And soon we&#8217;ll get to see how it works in practice.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Anandakos</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/29/the-i-90-fight-continues-and-the-state-is-losing/#comment-59111</link>
		<dc:creator>Anandakos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 16:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6811#comment-59111</guid>
		<description>Gabe,

Give the guy a break.  BRT in exclusive ROW does not &quot;bounce down broken up pavement&quot;.  And, if BRT had been the selected technology for the cross-lake system there would be no passenger cars in the center roadway, because it would be bi-directional and the Mercer Island kludge would no longer be feasible.  Hence, nobody cutting off the buses.  

Now I admit that he does kind of blur the difference between BRT in exclusive ROW and &quot;Blue Streak&quot; type express buses (collectors with a freeway trip) which DO sometimes &quot;bounce down broken up pavement&quot; if the local streets aren&#039;t up to snuff and are exposed to nutcase drivers on some parts of the freeway.  

But the truth is that we don&#039;t need to destroy BRT because the limitations of the DSTT have already done so.  There is simply not enough capacity for a significant expansion of cross-lake transit service through Downtown Seattle UNLESS it&#039;s Link, as has been pointed out by several posters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Gabe,</p>
<p>Give the guy a break.  BRT in exclusive ROW does not &#8220;bounce down broken up pavement&#8221;.  And, if BRT had been the selected technology for the cross-lake system there would be no passenger cars in the center roadway, because it would be bi-directional and the Mercer Island kludge would no longer be feasible.  Hence, nobody cutting off the buses.  </p>
<p>Now I admit that he does kind of blur the difference between BRT in exclusive ROW and &#8220;Blue Streak&#8221; type express buses (collectors with a freeway trip) which DO sometimes &#8220;bounce down broken up pavement&#8221; if the local streets aren&#8217;t up to snuff and are exposed to nutcase drivers on some parts of the freeway.  </p>
<p>But the truth is that we don&#8217;t need to destroy BRT because the limitations of the DSTT have already done so.  There is simply not enough capacity for a significant expansion of cross-lake transit service through Downtown Seattle UNLESS it&#8217;s Link, as has been pointed out by several posters.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Barman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/29/the-i-90-fight-continues-and-the-state-is-losing/#comment-59073</link>
		<dc:creator>Barman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 07:39:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6811#comment-59073</guid>
		<description>Sounds like a logical idea to me. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Sounds like a logical idea to me. ;)<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Barman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/29/the-i-90-fight-continues-and-the-state-is-losing/#comment-59070</link>
		<dc:creator>Barman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 07:21:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6811#comment-59070</guid>
		<description>Looking more closely at the two UW area stations, I don&#039;t think it&#039;ll be too much of a problem. Students are used to walking. My friends live in apts up on 50th, walk everyday all over campus, walk to the ave for dinner, etc etc. That&#039;s why I actually think the Brooklyn station will be just as popular for students as the &#039;real&#039; UW station.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Looking more closely at the two UW area stations, I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;ll be too much of a problem. Students are used to walking. My friends live in apts up on 50th, walk everyday all over campus, walk to the ave for dinner, etc etc. That&#8217;s why I actually think the Brooklyn station will be just as popular for students as the &#8216;real&#8217; UW station.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Bernie</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/29/the-i-90-fight-continues-and-the-state-is-losing/#comment-59069</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 06:59:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6811#comment-59069</guid>
		<description>Yeah, but if you look at the Columns article fare evasion was a problem way back when. With ORCA we have the technology but not the solution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Yeah, but if you look at the Columns article fare evasion was a problem way back when. With ORCA we have the technology but not the solution.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Oran Viriyincy</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/29/the-i-90-fight-continues-and-the-state-is-losing/#comment-59068</link>
		<dc:creator>Oran Viriyincy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 06:50:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6811#comment-59068</guid>
		<description>He would advocate for keeping the transit tunnel a bus tunnel but he failed to stop Link so that&#039;s not an option.

Exclusive bus lanes with island platforms could be constructed on 2nd &amp; 4th Avenues but those streets&#039; bus lanes are already jammed during rush hour. 5th Ave is too narrow. 1st is too congested and slated for a streetcar.

Then build a new bus tunnel which would cost more than building a rail only tunnel.

The Eastside Transportation Association advocates building a Downtown Bellevue bus tunnel as the centerpiece of their eastside BRT system instead of Link.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
He would advocate for keeping the transit tunnel a bus tunnel but he failed to stop Link so that&#8217;s not an option.</p>
<p>Exclusive bus lanes with island platforms could be constructed on 2nd &amp; 4th Avenues but those streets&#8217; bus lanes are already jammed during rush hour. 5th Ave is too narrow. 1st is too congested and slated for a streetcar.</p>
<p>Then build a new bus tunnel which would cost more than building a rail only tunnel.</p>
<p>The Eastside Transportation Association advocates building a Downtown Bellevue bus tunnel as the centerpiece of their eastside BRT system instead of Link.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: joshuadf</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/29/the-i-90-fight-continues-and-the-state-is-losing/#comment-59067</link>
		<dc:creator>joshuadf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 06:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6811#comment-59067</guid>
		<description>Speaking of the AYP, &lt;a href=&quot;http://ayp100.org/1909/featured-stories/get-me-fair&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;in 1909 most people took transit&lt;/a&gt;. There&#039;s a huge mural painting in Suzzallo showing trolleys and a train on the Burke. The &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.spl.org/Audio/AYPE2009.mp3&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;[MP3] SPL podcast about the AYP&lt;/a&gt; mentioned trolleys arriving every 30 seconds to bring 40,000 visitors in on opening day. We won&#039;t see those numbers again until 2016! 


Also, sounds like there are enough UW&#039;ers around here that we should do a brownbag lunch sometime. Maybe check out the station area or something. Email me my username at u if interested.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Speaking of the AYP, <a href="http://ayp100.org/1909/featured-stories/get-me-fair" rel="nofollow">in 1909 most people took transit</a>. There&#8217;s a huge mural painting in Suzzallo showing trolleys and a train on the Burke. The <a href="http://www.spl.org/Audio/AYPE2009.mp3" rel="nofollow">[MP3] SPL podcast about the AYP</a> mentioned trolleys arriving every 30 seconds to bring 40,000 visitors in on opening day. We won&#8217;t see those numbers again until 2016! </p>
<p>Also, sounds like there are enough UW&#8217;ers around here that we should do a brownbag lunch sometime. Maybe check out the station area or something. Email me my username at u if interested.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Gabe</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/29/the-i-90-fight-continues-and-the-state-is-losing/#comment-59058</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 05:50:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6811#comment-59058</guid>
		<description>Niles is used to being alone in the intellectual wilderness. 

Most of his compatriots in the anti-mass transit movement also oppose tolling - the cornerstone of Niles&#039; Libertarian transportation ideology. 

Which is such perfect irony. Since John Niles started down this path when HIS personal bus commute was interrupted by a train in DC, several decades ago. 

&quot;It&#039;s all about me&quot; doesn&#039;t make for strong coalition building. Hence, John Niles finds himself in obscurity. 

The guy really doesn&#039;t need a disguise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Niles is used to being alone in the intellectual wilderness. </p>
<p>Most of his compatriots in the anti-mass transit movement also oppose tolling &#8211; the cornerstone of Niles&#8217; Libertarian transportation ideology. </p>
<p>Which is such perfect irony. Since John Niles started down this path when HIS personal bus commute was interrupted by a train in DC, several decades ago. </p>
<p>&#8220;It&#8217;s all about me&#8221; doesn&#8217;t make for strong coalition building. Hence, John Niles finds himself in obscurity. </p>
<p>The guy really doesn&#8217;t need a disguise.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/29/the-i-90-fight-continues-and-the-state-is-losing/#comment-59041</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 02:57:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6811#comment-59041</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s smoothing out. Most trains hunt, and it doesn&#039;t scale linearly with velocity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
It&#8217;s smoothing out. Most trains hunt, and it doesn&#8217;t scale linearly with velocity.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/29/the-i-90-fight-continues-and-the-state-is-losing/#comment-59031</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 00:55:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6811#comment-59031</guid>
		<description>Erik - no, no. The state might just not be allowed into a future similar agreement, so they&#039;d lose future federal funding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Erik &#8211; no, no. The state might just not be allowed into a future similar agreement, so they&#8217;d lose future federal funding.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/29/the-i-90-fight-continues-and-the-state-is-losing/#comment-59030</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 00:54:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6811#comment-59030</guid>
		<description>As usual, misleading! Which light rail systems were studied? Perhaps mostly at-grade systems? Things look pretty different if you don&#039;t, say, look at systems where cars and trains actually share lanes, or systems that are mostly separated, like ours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
As usual, misleading! Which light rail systems were studied? Perhaps mostly at-grade systems? Things look pretty different if you don&#8217;t, say, look at systems where cars and trains actually share lanes, or systems that are mostly separated, like ours.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/29/the-i-90-fight-continues-and-the-state-is-losing/#comment-59029</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 00:52:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6811#comment-59029</guid>
		<description>The current 550 takes longer than East Link will, even with the stops. Just like the 194.

The problem is, in the long run, dedicated right of way *brings more users*. Buses in dedicated right of way are eventually overwhelmed. And PRT, don&#039;t get me started, you realize how much the right of way for passing &#039;tracks&#039; would cost?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
The current 550 takes longer than East Link will, even with the stops. Just like the 194.</p>
<p>The problem is, in the long run, dedicated right of way *brings more users*. Buses in dedicated right of way are eventually overwhelmed. And PRT, don&#8217;t get me started, you realize how much the right of way for passing &#8216;tracks&#8217; would cost?<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/29/the-i-90-fight-continues-and-the-state-is-losing/#comment-59024</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 00:44:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6811#comment-59024</guid>
		<description>Er, that &#039;missing alternative&#039; isn&#039;t an alternative. You know voters didn&#039;t vote for BRT, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Er, that &#8216;missing alternative&#8217; isn&#8217;t an alternative. You know voters didn&#8217;t vote for BRT, right?<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/07/29/the-i-90-fight-continues-and-the-state-is-losing/#comment-59022</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 00:42:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=6811#comment-59022</guid>
		<description>Actually, the (binding) 2004 MOA Amendment does say the R8A project is for rail - or at least it says HCT, I&#039;m not sure if the Board had decided on BRT or light rail at that point, but the decision was deferred to them.</description>
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Actually, the (binding) 2004 MOA Amendment does say the R8A project is for rail &#8211; or at least it says HCT, I&#8217;m not sure if the Board had decided on BRT or light rail at that point, but the decision was deferred to them.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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