Comments on: Hard Numbers on the Viaduct http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/08/12/hard-numbers-on-the-viaduct/ Transit in the Greater Seattle Area Mon, 13 Feb 2012 09:21:24 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Steve M. Berman http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/08/12/hard-numbers-on-the-viaduct/#comment-63272 Steve M. Berman Wed, 19 Aug 2009 21:00:32 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7158#comment-63272 Its not only the tunnel construction money; anytime a new highway bypasses a town, the town dries up. This is a reason why Interstate 5 was intentionally routed directly through downtown Seattle. This deep bore tunnel will bypass downtown Seattle completely. Why should Seattle finance it's own bypass, or help it's own demise.
Its not only the tunnel construction money; anytime a new highway bypasses a town, the town dries up. This is a reason why Interstate 5 was intentionally routed directly through downtown Seattle. This deep bore tunnel will bypass downtown Seattle completely. Why should Seattle finance it’s own bypass, or help it’s own demise.

]]> By: Christopher Stefan http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/08/12/hard-numbers-on-the-viaduct/#comment-62001 Christopher Stefan Thu, 13 Aug 2009 23:28:03 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7158#comment-62001 The bridge and tunnel as it was in 1972 were built in 1940. I don't remember exactly how many lanes were planned in the "cut Mt. Baker in half" version of I-90. I'm pretty sure it was much wider. 8 lanes each way sounds right.
The bridge and tunnel as it was in 1972 were built in 1940. I don’t remember exactly how many lanes were planned in the “cut Mt. Baker in half” version of I-90. I’m pretty sure it was much wider. 8 lanes each way sounds right.

]]> By: Mike Orr http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/08/12/hard-numbers-on-the-viaduct/#comment-61976 Mike Orr Thu, 13 Aug 2009 22:44:53 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7158#comment-61976 I'm not sure which plan you're talking about. When I arrived in 1972, I-90 had a 4-lane bridge and I think the Mt Baker tunnel, but the west side ended at Dearborn Street and did not connect to I-5. I forgot that the bridge must have predated the Interstate system. But wasn't the Mt Baker tunnel built at the same time as the bridge? I was only 7 so I don't quite remember. However, a more interesting question is, how many lanes were planned? Would it have been 8 lanes each direction like the Bay Bridge?
I’m not sure which plan you’re talking about. When I arrived in 1972, I-90 had a 4-lane bridge and I think the Mt Baker tunnel, but the west side ended at Dearborn Street and did not connect to I-5. I forgot that the bridge must have predated the Interstate system. But wasn’t the Mt Baker tunnel built at the same time as the bridge? I was only 7 so I don’t quite remember.

However, a more interesting question is, how many lanes were planned? Would it have been 8 lanes each direction like the Bay Bridge?

]]> By: Christopher Stefan http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/08/12/hard-numbers-on-the-viaduct/#comment-61951 Christopher Stefan Thu, 13 Aug 2009 20:08:25 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7158#comment-61951 The original plan for I-90 had no lids in either Mercer Island or Rainier Valley, it would have cut a trench through Mt. Baker, it also had many more lanes than ultimately ended up being built.
The original plan for I-90 had no lids in either Mercer Island or Rainier Valley, it would have cut a trench through Mt. Baker, it also had many more lanes than ultimately ended up being built.

]]> By: Mike Orr http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/08/12/hard-numbers-on-the-viaduct/#comment-61943 Mike Orr Thu, 13 Aug 2009 19:04:04 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7158#comment-61943 How is I-90 different from the original plan? Besides the fact that they had to build a second bridge because the first one was not big enough? (And opened for boats, and had a bulge that drunk drivers crashed into all the time.)
How is I-90 different from the original plan? Besides the fact that they had to build a second bridge because the first one was not big enough? (And opened for boats, and had a bulge that drunk drivers crashed into all the time.)

]]> By: Gary http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/08/12/hard-numbers-on-the-viaduct/#comment-61920 Gary Thu, 13 Aug 2009 16:05:44 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7158#comment-61920 My understanding from talking to the fare collector on the street car was that they had a complete interior refurbishing. I don't know about the mechanics, but if they did as good a job with the interior varnish as they did on the mechanics then a complete rebuild was done. Those cars were in great shape. And my understanding was that there was a collection of volunteers who loved working on them as well. (free labor...) Anyway Down in San Francisco they run rebuilt street cars on the waterfront and they were packed with riders. Seems a money making scheme to me, and it gives us another street car line.
My understanding from talking to the fare collector on the street car was that they had a complete interior refurbishing. I don’t know about the mechanics, but if they did as good a job with the interior varnish as they did on the mechanics then a complete rebuild was done. Those cars were in great shape.

And my understanding was that there was a collection of volunteers who loved working on them as well. (free labor…)

Anyway Down in San Francisco they run rebuilt street cars on the waterfront and they were packed with riders. Seems a money making scheme to me, and it gives us another street car line.

]]> By: Chris Stefan http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/08/12/hard-numbers-on-the-viaduct/#comment-61913 Chris Stefan Thu, 13 Aug 2009 15:22:51 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7158#comment-61913 I don't know much about the condition of the old Melbourne cars, but as I recall they didn't have a full rebuild before being put into service here. Most heritage lines are now running cars that have been fully rebuilt or new replica cars. In theory if you do it right the cars should be good for 20-30 years after a rebuild. If that still doesn't get the cars where they need to be we can buy some rebuilt PCC or Peter Witt cars or even order replica Birney cars. Just look at the Mattapan High-Speed line in Boston, they are using 60 year old PCC cars in daily revenue service.
I don’t know much about the condition of the old Melbourne cars, but as I recall they didn’t have a full rebuild before being put into service here. Most heritage lines are now running cars that have been fully rebuilt or new replica cars. In theory if you do it right the cars should be good for 20-30 years after a rebuild.

If that still doesn’t get the cars where they need to be we can buy some rebuilt PCC or Peter Witt cars or even order replica Birney cars.

Just look at the Mattapan High-Speed line in Boston, they are using 60 year old PCC cars in daily revenue service.

]]> By: McGinn Responds on Viaduct - Seattle Transit Blog http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/08/12/hard-numbers-on-the-viaduct/#comment-61912 McGinn Responds on Viaduct - Seattle Transit Blog Thu, 13 Aug 2009 15:16:32 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7158#comment-61912 [...] McGinn has a response to the yesterday’s Nickels challenge.  He identifies the funding sources and sketches out a $2.4 billion budget for surface/transit [...]
[...] McGinn has a response to the yesterday’s Nickels challenge.  He identifies the funding sources and sketches out a $2.4 billion budget for surface/transit [...]

]]> By: serial catowner http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/08/12/hard-numbers-on-the-viaduct/#comment-61910 serial catowner Thu, 13 Aug 2009 13:56:34 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7158#comment-61910 The old cars are high platform cars. It is possible to buy 'heritage' streetcars, that is to say, new streetcars that are essentially the same as the old, made in America today. The issues with the brakes and current denomination are not impossible, or even particularly hard, to solve. We could probably buy off-the-shelf bolt-on technology from Czechoslovakia to fix those things- after all, they sold something like 30,000 PCC cars worldwide.
The old cars are high platform cars. It is possible to buy ‘heritage’ streetcars, that is to say, new streetcars that are essentially the same as the old, made in America today.

The issues with the brakes and current denomination are not impossible, or even particularly hard, to solve. We could probably buy off-the-shelf bolt-on technology from Czechoslovakia to fix those things- after all, they sold something like 30,000 PCC cars worldwide.

]]> By: serial catowner http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/08/12/hard-numbers-on-the-viaduct/#comment-61909 serial catowner Thu, 13 Aug 2009 13:43:59 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7158#comment-61909 Y'know, it seems to me that if there was anything to this McGinn guy, he would have a fairly detailed plan about how Seattle would force the removal of the Viaduct and deal with the aftermath. If the Seattle Mayor wanted the Viaduct taken down NOW, it would happen a lot quicker. Everyone involved has huge amounts of potential liability in case it collapses in an earthquake, not to mention possible criminal charges of negligent manslaughter, considering all the considering that has been done. A small panel of commenters and bloggers on this site would have no trouble sketching out the "surface options" and even guesstimating their costs and possible revenue sources. McGinn would be a lot more believable if he had a plan that voters could look at and judge for themselves whether it seemed desirable or realistic.
Y’know, it seems to me that if there was anything to this McGinn guy, he would have a fairly detailed plan about how Seattle would force the removal of the Viaduct and deal with the aftermath.

If the Seattle Mayor wanted the Viaduct taken down NOW, it would happen a lot quicker. Everyone involved has huge amounts of potential liability in case it collapses in an earthquake, not to mention possible criminal charges of negligent manslaughter, considering all the considering that has been done.

A small panel of commenters and bloggers on this site would have no trouble sketching out the “surface options” and even guesstimating their costs and possible revenue sources.

McGinn would be a lot more believable if he had a plan that voters could look at and judge for themselves whether it seemed desirable or realistic.

]]> By: Gary http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/08/12/hard-numbers-on-the-viaduct/#comment-61895 Gary Thu, 13 Aug 2009 07:29:40 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7158#comment-61895 Ben is being overly pessimistic here. Those street cars can run as long as we want them to. And yes you could step down the voltage without too much trouble.
Ben is being overly pessimistic here. Those street cars can run as long as we want them to.

And yes you could step down the voltage without too much trouble.

]]> By: Gary http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/08/12/hard-numbers-on-the-viaduct/#comment-61894 Gary Thu, 13 Aug 2009 07:23:44 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7158#comment-61894 your vote won't count. Only your landlord's does in a Improvement district vote. The only reason the South lake Union car passed was that Paul Allen owned a majority of the property along the route.
your vote won’t count. Only your landlord’s does in a Improvement district vote. The only reason the South lake Union car passed was that Paul Allen owned a majority of the property along the route.

]]> By: Gary http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/08/12/hard-numbers-on-the-viaduct/#comment-61892 Gary Thu, 13 Aug 2009 07:22:24 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7158#comment-61892 Ben, I used to ride the Waterfront Street car on a regular basis and I don't recall ever being delayed by a breakdown. They seemed to meet the schedule pretty darn well considering that it was single tracked. They have a middle passing spot which they use to synchronize the run. New brakes every two months hardly rates a call for 2x the maintenance cost. Last I had heard from the brakeman on the street car was that it was making money, not losing it like the bus system.
Ben, I used to ride the Waterfront Street car on a regular basis and I don’t recall ever being delayed by a breakdown. They seemed to meet the schedule pretty darn well considering that it was single tracked. They have a middle passing spot which they use to synchronize the run.

New brakes every two months hardly rates a call for 2x the maintenance cost. Last I had heard from the brakeman on the street car was that it was making money, not losing it like the bus system.

]]> By: Ryan http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/08/12/hard-numbers-on-the-viaduct/#comment-61876 Ryan Thu, 13 Aug 2009 04:35:04 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7158#comment-61876 True, but think of all the bus service that can be eliminated once the Link and Streetcare extensions are complete. As a city, our transport future is with rail, for better or worse. Think of all the routes that will be replaced by Link or the Streetcar: 70, 71, 72, 73, 41, 550, etc. not to mention all the truncating that can occur. 3rd Avenue will more than be able to absorb 5th Avenue's service due to the reduction in bus routes downtown. We need to stop seeing these types of improvements as "reductions in bus service" but rather in rationalizing and improving the overall mass transit network. Bus service will be reduced and/or shifted downtown, and that's not a bad thing.
True, but think of all the bus service that can be eliminated once the Link and Streetcare extensions are complete. As a city, our transport future is with rail, for better or worse. Think of all the routes that will be replaced by Link or the Streetcar: 70, 71, 72, 73, 41, 550, etc. not to mention all the truncating that can occur. 3rd Avenue will more than be able to absorb 5th Avenue’s service due to the reduction in bus routes downtown. We need to stop seeing these types of improvements as “reductions in bus service” but rather in rationalizing and improving the overall mass transit network. Bus service will be reduced and/or shifted downtown, and that’s not a bad thing.

]]> By: Zed http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/08/12/hard-numbers-on-the-viaduct/#comment-61874 Zed Thu, 13 Aug 2009 04:03:14 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7158#comment-61874 Like this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/trolleyfan/3643432131/ There is a signalized crosswalk at the very end of the platform. I like this design because you only have to build half the number of platforms, so the overall cost is less.
Like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/trolleyfan/3643432131/

There is a signalized crosswalk at the very end of the platform. I like this design because you only have to build half the number of platforms, so the overall cost is less.

]]> By: Matt http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/08/12/hard-numbers-on-the-viaduct/#comment-61870 Matt Thu, 13 Aug 2009 03:25:16 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7158#comment-61870 I'm having a hard time envisioning the center lane streetcar... how do you board and exit? Is there a little mini platform in the middle of the street? Does it just let you out like the cable car in San Francisco?
I’m having a hard time envisioning the center lane streetcar… how do you board and exit? Is there a little mini platform in the middle of the street? Does it just let you out like the cable car in San Francisco?

]]> By: Matt http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/08/12/hard-numbers-on-the-viaduct/#comment-61869 Matt Thu, 13 Aug 2009 03:23:40 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7158#comment-61869 So let's get it new streetcars, then. Easy.
So let’s get it new streetcars, then. Easy.

]]> By: Matt http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/08/12/hard-numbers-on-the-viaduct/#comment-61866 Matt Thu, 13 Aug 2009 03:20:29 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7158#comment-61866 Not to split hairs, but we live <i>on</i> the lithosphere, in the atmosphere, we drink and swim in the hydrosphere, we eat and burn the biosphere, and we are, some would say, the anthrosphere. Whatever spheres we're talking about, the part of the planet that would care is the outermost few miles, from a mile below us to the top of the atmosphere.
Not to split hairs, but we live on the lithosphere, in the atmosphere, we drink and swim in the hydrosphere, we eat and burn the biosphere, and we are, some would say, the anthrosphere. Whatever spheres we’re talking about, the part of the planet that would care is the outermost few miles, from a mile below us to the top of the atmosphere.

]]> By: Kaleci http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/08/12/hard-numbers-on-the-viaduct/#comment-61863 Kaleci Thu, 13 Aug 2009 03:02:24 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7158#comment-61863 Yes, but it's a shame that it will come at the cost of 5th Avenue losing bus service.
Yes, but it’s a shame that it will come at the cost of 5th Avenue losing bus service.

]]> By: joshuadf http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/08/12/hard-numbers-on-the-viaduct/#comment-61862 joshuadf Thu, 13 Aug 2009 03:01:38 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7158#comment-61862 Yeah, I should have probably said "the biosphere" since that's the part of the planet we live on. If the planet could think, at this point I'm sure it would be happy to see us go.
Yeah, I should have probably said “the biosphere” since that’s the part of the planet we live on. If the planet could think, at this point I’m sure it would be happy to see us go.

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