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	<title>Comments on: But You&#8217;re a Blogger, Too</title>
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	<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/09/16/but-youre-a-blogger-too/</link>
	<description>Transit in the Greater Seattle Area</description>
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		<title>By: The Trolley Argument - Seattle Transit Blog</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/09/16/but-youre-a-blogger-too/#comment-69720</link>
		<dc:creator>The Trolley Argument - Seattle Transit Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:31:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7895#comment-69720</guid>
		<description>[...] asked someone to make the case for trolleys, and Orphan Road [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
[...] asked someone to make the case for trolleys, and Orphan Road [...]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Metro Audit Report Complete - Seattle Transit Blog</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/09/16/but-youre-a-blogger-too/#comment-68984</link>
		<dc:creator>Metro Audit Report Complete - Seattle Transit Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:36:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7895#comment-68984</guid>
		<description>[...] entire report is now online; passionate trolleybus defenders, which John and I are not, will want to poke holes in Chapter 4 of Report A (pdf).  There&#8217;s also a two-page summary of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
[...] entire report is now online; passionate trolleybus defenders, which John and I are not, will want to poke holes in Chapter 4 of Report A (pdf).  There&#8217;s also a two-page summary of [...]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: poncho</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/09/16/but-youre-a-blogger-too/#comment-68747</link>
		<dc:creator>poncho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7895#comment-68747</guid>
		<description>either an overhead map or route map</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
either an overhead map or route map<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: wes kirkman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/09/16/but-youre-a-blogger-too/#comment-68735</link>
		<dc:creator>wes kirkman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 17:15:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7895#comment-68735</guid>
		<description>Brian,
Sorry you have had that experience so often.  I&#039;d say you should still look at the alternatives.  Noise and pollution are known daily nuisances of urbanity while a transit delay due to breakdowns is maybe a few times a year for a single person.  Plus, besides a momentary increase in blood pressure (if you are the type), a delay costs you nothing but a tiny fraction of your life.  Noise and pollution costs you a lot more.  My cents on that.

And while there is something to the flexibility argument, there is also something to the opposing argument.  As a reader of STB, I&#039;m sure you already know it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Brian,<br />
Sorry you have had that experience so often.  I&#8217;d say you should still look at the alternatives.  Noise and pollution are known daily nuisances of urbanity while a transit delay due to breakdowns is maybe a few times a year for a single person.  Plus, besides a momentary increase in blood pressure (if you are the type), a delay costs you nothing but a tiny fraction of your life.  Noise and pollution costs you a lot more.  My cents on that.</p>
<p>And while there is something to the flexibility argument, there is also something to the opposing argument.  As a reader of STB, I&#8217;m sure you already know it.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: serial catowner</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/09/16/but-youre-a-blogger-too/#comment-68697</link>
		<dc:creator>serial catowner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:17:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7895#comment-68697</guid>
		<description>Diesel at $2.99/gallon last time I filled up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Diesel at $2.99/gallon last time I filled up.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Oran Viriyincy</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/09/16/but-youre-a-blogger-too/#comment-68644</link>
		<dc:creator>Oran Viriyincy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 07:04:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7895#comment-68644</guid>
		<description>You mean a map of the overhead, kind of like a track map? I traced one of those so it&#039;s higher resolution but isn&#039;t up to date. There&#039;s a trolley overhead layer for GIS but it only shows which streets have overhead and nothing more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
You mean a map of the overhead, kind of like a track map? I traced one of those so it&#8217;s higher resolution but isn&#8217;t up to date. There&#8217;s a trolley overhead layer for GIS but it only shows which streets have overhead and nothing more.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: poncho</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/09/16/but-youre-a-blogger-too/#comment-68643</link>
		<dc:creator>poncho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 07:00:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7895#comment-68643</guid>
		<description>does anyone have a quality up to date seattle ETB map? i know theres some old ones &lt;a href=&#039;http://www.sfu.ca/person/dearmond/323/&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; but i was looking for something better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
does anyone have a quality up to date seattle ETB map? i know theres some old ones <a href='http://www.sfu.ca/person/dearmond/323/' rel="nofollow">here</a> but i was looking for something better.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Bobby</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/09/16/but-youre-a-blogger-too/#comment-68626</link>
		<dc:creator>Bobby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 04:37:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7895#comment-68626</guid>
		<description>New trolleys in Vancouver, Boston, Philly are low-floor with a/c, off-wire capability, and kneeling design.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
New trolleys in Vancouver, Boston, Philly are low-floor with a/c, off-wire capability, and kneeling design.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Bobby</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/09/16/but-youre-a-blogger-too/#comment-68625</link>
		<dc:creator>Bobby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 04:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7895#comment-68625</guid>
		<description>Vancouver and SF trolleys have off-wire capability, either batteries or aux small diesel engines, and that low-tech solution has proven to work well.  I believe Boston and Philly have the same; only Dayton and Seattle lack it in North America.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Vancouver and SF trolleys have off-wire capability, either batteries or aux small diesel engines, and that low-tech solution has proven to work well.  I believe Boston and Philly have the same; only Dayton and Seattle lack it in North America.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Multimodal Man</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/09/16/but-youre-a-blogger-too/#comment-68618</link>
		<dc:creator>Multimodal Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 03:23:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7895#comment-68618</guid>
		<description>Go to YouTube and type in electric trolley bus or search for ETB images on Google. The reality is there are as many trolley fleets out there as diesel fleets. With no engine they actually have more opportunity to be 100% low floor. The Swiss make ETB overhead switches that allow for much higher speeds underneath than the 5-10 mph that Metro requires of drivers. And high speed wire and shoes allow ETBs to max out at 80kmoh, not much under Light Rail&#039;s max speed around 90-95 kmph.
The ETBs have always been the step child of the Metro system (ETB elimination is 50-year old subject, not one stemming from an audit report). When diesel was above $3-4/gallon, Diesel buses (especially 40&#039; since Frankentrolleys are indeed an anomaly) were as expensive as ETB. It is irresponsible of the Auditor to assume that gas prices will track inflation. Cap and Trade or Peak Oil will destroy any economic efficiencies diesel offers transit agencies in the near future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Go to YouTube and type in electric trolley bus or search for ETB images on Google. The reality is there are as many trolley fleets out there as diesel fleets. With no engine they actually have more opportunity to be 100% low floor. The Swiss make ETB overhead switches that allow for much higher speeds underneath than the 5-10 mph that Metro requires of drivers. And high speed wire and shoes allow ETBs to max out at 80kmoh, not much under Light Rail&#8217;s max speed around 90-95 kmph.<br />
The ETBs have always been the step child of the Metro system (ETB elimination is 50-year old subject, not one stemming from an audit report). When diesel was above $3-4/gallon, Diesel buses (especially 40&#8242; since Frankentrolleys are indeed an anomaly) were as expensive as ETB. It is irresponsible of the Auditor to assume that gas prices will track inflation. Cap and Trade or Peak Oil will destroy any economic efficiencies diesel offers transit agencies in the near future.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: SR Das</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/09/16/but-youre-a-blogger-too/#comment-68615</link>
		<dc:creator>SR Das</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 03:12:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7895#comment-68615</guid>
		<description>I doubt that the ETBs will go anytime soon.  I mean, zero emissions, little noise.  It may just even be more of an expense to dismantle the overhead than maintain it regularly.  And ETB&#039;s never run out of juice.

Think of what the future could hold...low-floor trolleys, trolleys with batteries (the closest we have had to off-wire capabilities were the Breda&#039;s diesel engines), who knows?

I mean, the city always is trying to address environmental impacts, and replacing an ETB with a hybrid would increase emissons by 100%.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I doubt that the ETBs will go anytime soon.  I mean, zero emissions, little noise.  It may just even be more of an expense to dismantle the overhead than maintain it regularly.  And ETB&#8217;s never run out of juice.</p>
<p>Think of what the future could hold&#8230;low-floor trolleys, trolleys with batteries (the closest we have had to off-wire capabilities were the Breda&#8217;s diesel engines), who knows?</p>
<p>I mean, the city always is trying to address environmental impacts, and replacing an ETB with a hybrid would increase emissons by 100%.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/09/16/but-youre-a-blogger-too/#comment-68614</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 03:10:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7895#comment-68614</guid>
		<description>I thought the counterbalance had a large mass running on some kind of track buried underneath the tracks; it would go up against a descending car and go down against an ascender and thus the streetcars didn&#039;t need to time their routes. Did I make that up?

Could this technology be re-invented in the modern era without necessitating a brakeman in whose skill the lives of all the riders lie?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I thought the counterbalance had a large mass running on some kind of track buried underneath the tracks; it would go up against a descending car and go down against an ascender and thus the streetcars didn&#8217;t need to time their routes. Did I make that up?</p>
<p>Could this technology be re-invented in the modern era without necessitating a brakeman in whose skill the lives of all the riders lie?<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: alexjonlin</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/09/16/but-youre-a-blogger-too/#comment-68593</link>
		<dc:creator>alexjonlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 01:31:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7895#comment-68593</guid>
		<description>Well you can hear it from a block away. It&#039;s definitely not the driver&#039;s fault, but I&#039;m sure it can&#039;t be that hard to in the future get beeping boxes that aren&#039;t quite as loud.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Well you can hear it from a block away. It&#8217;s definitely not the driver&#8217;s fault, but I&#8217;m sure it can&#8217;t be that hard to in the future get beeping boxes that aren&#8217;t quite as loud.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/09/16/but-youre-a-blogger-too/#comment-68569</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 00:16:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7895#comment-68569</guid>
		<description>In their presentation to the King County RTC, the auditors said they were not advising in favor of hybrids or against trolley buses as ETBs offer significant social and environmental benefits that should be taken into consideration when selecting a replacement for the existing ETB fleet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
In their presentation to the King County RTC, the auditors said they were not advising in favor of hybrids or against trolley buses as ETBs offer significant social and environmental benefits that should be taken into consideration when selecting a replacement for the existing ETB fleet.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Bernie</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/09/16/but-youre-a-blogger-too/#comment-68563</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 00:07:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7895#comment-68563</guid>
		<description>Haven&#039;t seen the super capacitor technology applied to trolly buses yet but in light rail vehicles (I think it was Seimans) they were getting a couple of miles on a charge. The big difference from batteries besides weight is the fast recharge. Instead of a network of wires a bus would be able to recharge at stops and run free most of the rest of the route. Less maintenance, less capital cost to install, less resistance from people who don&#039;t visually like a bunch of overhead wires, no getting bunched because you can&#039;t pass.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Haven&#8217;t seen the super capacitor technology applied to trolly buses yet but in light rail vehicles (I think it was Seimans) they were getting a couple of miles on a charge. The big difference from batteries besides weight is the fast recharge. Instead of a network of wires a bus would be able to recharge at stops and run free most of the rest of the route. Less maintenance, less capital cost to install, less resistance from people who don&#8217;t visually like a bunch of overhead wires, no getting bunched because you can&#8217;t pass.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/09/16/but-youre-a-blogger-too/#comment-68540</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 23:21:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7895#comment-68540</guid>
		<description>Given what happened with the George Benson Waterfront Streetcar I&#039;m far more skeptical.

First they said not to worry a new barn would be built in time to keep the line running. Then they said the temporary service suspension would only be until a new barn was finished. Then they said its only gone for a few years until the viaduct is replaced. Now the powers that be will tell you the Waterfront Streetcar isn&#039;t coming back and if we&#039;re real good we&#039;ll get modern Skoda trams on First Avenue, besides they&#039;re both the same corridor anyway aren&#039;t they? Never mind the Metro website still claims the suspension is only &quot;temporary&quot;. Sounds like those &quot;temporary&quot; suspensions of streetcar service in Boston and Philadelphia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Given what happened with the George Benson Waterfront Streetcar I&#8217;m far more skeptical.</p>
<p>First they said not to worry a new barn would be built in time to keep the line running. Then they said the temporary service suspension would only be until a new barn was finished. Then they said its only gone for a few years until the viaduct is replaced. Now the powers that be will tell you the Waterfront Streetcar isn&#8217;t coming back and if we&#8217;re real good we&#8217;ll get modern Skoda trams on First Avenue, besides they&#8217;re both the same corridor anyway aren&#8217;t they? Never mind the Metro website still claims the suspension is only &#8220;temporary&#8221;. Sounds like those &#8220;temporary&#8221; suspensions of streetcar service in Boston and Philadelphia.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Welch</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/09/16/but-youre-a-blogger-too/#comment-68539</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 23:18:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7895#comment-68539</guid>
		<description>If there is and will be an argument for continuing or even expanding the ETB network, it will be the green/quiet arguments.  Cost will as pointed out depend largely on another huge inflationary spike in fuel prices and continued lack of technological advancement.

I can however see something like hydrogen-cell fueled or other alternative to wired-electric coming along and making environmental, economical, and practical sense all at once.  We can only hope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
If there is and will be an argument for continuing or even expanding the ETB network, it will be the green/quiet arguments.  Cost will as pointed out depend largely on another huge inflationary spike in fuel prices and continued lack of technological advancement.</p>
<p>I can however see something like hydrogen-cell fueled or other alternative to wired-electric coming along and making environmental, economical, and practical sense all at once.  We can only hope.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/09/16/but-youre-a-blogger-too/#comment-68531</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 23:05:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7895#comment-68531</guid>
		<description>I guess I forget the cost of maintaining the OCS could actually be what causes a majority of the difference vs diesel hybrid coaches.

Still given the other benefits of the ETB network, the high risk of severe fuel price inflation, and the already sunk costs in the wire network and power equipment it would seem foolish for Metro to tear down the wires and junk the ETBs. If they do it it will be a decision they will regret in a decade or less.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I guess I forget the cost of maintaining the OCS could actually be what causes a majority of the difference vs diesel hybrid coaches.</p>
<p>Still given the other benefits of the ETB network, the high risk of severe fuel price inflation, and the already sunk costs in the wire network and power equipment it would seem foolish for Metro to tear down the wires and junk the ETBs. If they do it it will be a decision they will regret in a decade or less.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Welch</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/09/16/but-youre-a-blogger-too/#comment-68527</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 23:00:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7895#comment-68527</guid>
		<description>alexjonlin,

I used to get that complaint when I drove a low-floor hybrid.  People got downright bitchy about it in fact.

Heads-up:  there is no volume control on the beeper.  Also, I&#039;d rather have a loud beep than an amputated foot - those buses kneel LOW, and if you&#039;re between the bus and the curb - you&#039;re going to lose an appendage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
alexjonlin,</p>
<p>I used to get that complaint when I drove a low-floor hybrid.  People got downright bitchy about it in fact.</p>
<p>Heads-up:  there is no volume control on the beeper.  Also, I&#8217;d rather have a loud beep than an amputated foot &#8211; those buses kneel LOW, and if you&#8217;re between the bus and the curb &#8211; you&#8217;re going to lose an appendage.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Welch</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/09/16/but-youre-a-blogger-too/#comment-68526</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 22:57:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=7895#comment-68526</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Are drivers generally anti-ETB?&lt;/b&gt;

Not really, no.  There are a lot of drivers who never spend a day driving trolley buses.  More who drive because they are assigned to the duty, but get out of it as soon as they can.

Driving trolley buses is more difficult - you are driving two roads, one under the tires and one up in the wires.  The switches and special work can be cranky.  They are more prone to accidents and supernumary damage incidents due to the nature of the poles and wires.

Add to the complexity of driving the trolley buses the fact that all 14 trolley bus routes are in-city, run in heavy traffic bottlenecks, and transport some of the area&#039;s most challenging and diverse passengers - it can be less than desirable duty.

However. . .there are a LOT of trolley drivers who get behind that wheel and fall in love with the equipment and the associated challenges of working at Atlantic Base.  I am one such, and have encountered many lifer-type drivers who can&#039;t imagine working anywhere else and routinely complain when they have to drive a diesel bus on a weekend or as part of a temporary route assignement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
<b>Are drivers generally anti-ETB?</b></p>
<p>Not really, no.  There are a lot of drivers who never spend a day driving trolley buses.  More who drive because they are assigned to the duty, but get out of it as soon as they can.</p>
<p>Driving trolley buses is more difficult &#8211; you are driving two roads, one under the tires and one up in the wires.  The switches and special work can be cranky.  They are more prone to accidents and supernumary damage incidents due to the nature of the poles and wires.</p>
<p>Add to the complexity of driving the trolley buses the fact that all 14 trolley bus routes are in-city, run in heavy traffic bottlenecks, and transport some of the area&#8217;s most challenging and diverse passengers &#8211; it can be less than desirable duty.</p>
<p>However. . .there are a LOT of trolley drivers who get behind that wheel and fall in love with the equipment and the associated challenges of working at Atlantic Base.  I am one such, and have encountered many lifer-type drivers who can&#8217;t imagine working anywhere else and routinely complain when they have to drive a diesel bus on a weekend or as part of a temporary route assignement.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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