Kemper Freeman’s Motivation

76 Replies to “Kemper Freeman’s Motivation”

1. Don’t forget what he said about Southcenter:
   http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20050424&slug=jdl24

   1. LOL I just thought of that.

      1. Thanks to both of you for finding that, by the way. I may update the post… :)

2. http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20050424&slug=jdl24

   Kemper is fighting light rail because he equates rail with poor people. And you can see how he looks down upon them in the article above. Even if rail brought more customers to Bellsquare, he doesn’t want THAT TYPE of customer.

   “Freeman was quoted in a newspaper story saying, “When you walk through the [Southcenter] mall, the way the customer dresses just to shop there — the light blue and pink hair curlers, the shoes that flop, flop, flop along — it’s a completely different customer.”

   1. But that argument doesn’t really justify his actions. You don’t sink tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars into fighting something because you’re racist. You do it because it affects your bottom line. These arguments he makes help him convince racists to agree with him, but he wants them to agree with him to help his bottom line. It just may happen to line up with his personal ideology.

      1. I agree with you that there are likely real estate issues at hand, and that he wouldn’t spite his bottom line merely out of racism, but I don’t think racism and his bottom line are necessarily at odds. I think Freeman believes, maybe not totally irrationally, that rich white Eastsiders will shop somewhere else if a lot of “those people” start showing up at his mall.

         On the other hand, I don’t think that East Link is going to cause such a huge influx of Seattlites to start shopping at Bellevue Square, when light-rail will better connect them to other options. I think he is more concerned that more Eastsiders will go to Seattle to shop.

      2. I think you’re quite right that his racism might go with his bottom line.

         I don’t think that the people using the train from downtown are going to be lower income than the people he already gets. That seems to be what he’s worried about – but Seattle downtown is expensive to live in, and homeless folks aren’t spending $2.50-$3 on the train when they can hang out on a bus.

      3. I wouldn’t assume that everything KF does is driven by rational thought or pure economics.

         I remember reading a story once somewhere about KF. Apparently there was going to be some sort of a developer’s or Chamber of Commerce tour or something with a lot of other VIP’s. When it came time to take the site tour the vehicle showed up and it was one of those big luxury tour buses. KF refused to get on – he wouldn’t ride a bus period, he felt it was beneath him

         Along those same lines, I worked for several years with an extremely well educated, very accomplished, older gentleman who refused to have anything to do with any form of recycling. I once asked him why and he said, “I don’t sort garbage!” The very concept made him angry.

      4. Oh, I don’t think everything he does is driven by rational thought or economics. But in the past, when we’ve talked about his ideological bent, we often get the response “But that doesn’t make sense”. This argument helps satisfy the people who don’t believe that everything he does is driven by his ideology. :)

      5. “You don’t sink tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars into fighting something because you’re racist. You do it because it affects your bottom line.” –

         Sadly, I think you’re mistaken on this. And it could be both motivations intertwined, too.

   2. A charitable reading of that quote is that he thinks his customers are racist, not that he’s racist himself.

      I’m glad Ben didn’t go down that road in the post.

      1. I know someone who is a young, Beaux Arts-born-and-bred employee and accolade of Kemper Freeman and he very much ascribes to the idea that light rail should be stopped because it will bring a “bad element” into Bellevue. I have no problem believing that xenophobia and snobbery very much outweigh rational thought in Kemper Freeman’s case as well.

      2. So a property owner who takes far reaching preemptive steps to limit public access so his tenants and customers are less likely to be shopping around people they deem undesirable isn’t practicing racism or classcism himself.

         By that distinction if back in 1955 that white man had already been seated on that Montgomery bus and he denied his seat to Rosa Parks, but stood for the white lady who got on at the next stop, he himself wouldn’t be racist he’d only be enforcing bus rider policy and established societal norms.

3. Kemper is short-sighted. Bellevue has changed drastically, just in his lifetime – most of that change having to do with him and his family. Downtown Bellevue is a handsome place, and he is rightly proud of it, but it is evolving from a bedroom community into a major city in its own right. With a major city come major infrastructure needs, and transit becomes something for everyone – not just a way of getting cleaning ladies to their job assignments.

   For the sake of his family, his city, and his legacy, he should be supporting link running into downtown Bellevue, for it will certainly become gridlocked without it, given the rate of growth. And transit or not, it’s going to become more “urban”. There’s no way around that.

   1. Oh, I agree – actually, I think it will become gridlocked with or without it.

      He just doesn’t make as much money on light rail in downtown.

   2. I’m still amazed at the wide acceptance given to NOT serving the downtown Bellevue retail core, which centers on Bellevue Way in the same way that downtown Seattle centers on Third Ave. No way would Seattle have accepted a transit tunnel off on the edge of downtown, so why does it have so much traction in Bellevue?

      No, I’m not referring to the I-405/BNSF corridor; that’s obviously ridiculous. I’m concerned that the 108th and 110th avenue corridors being proposed also shortchange the retail district. It’s a LONG walk from there to Bellevue Way, which, yes, is to Kemper’s liking, but sure’s hell not for most of the rest of the retail community.

      Can’t anyone over there see far enough into the future to DEMAND that Bellevue Way be served??? There’s a tired little strip mall on the west side of Bellevue Way, just east of the Downtown Park — an ideal location for a station. The northwest entrance would serve Bellevue Square and the southwest entrance would serve Old Town. North/south buses on Bellevue Way would have direct connections to rail. It’s just too obvious. Yes, a tunnel would be required, but given the form that Bellevue is taking, and yes, given the future that so few seem able to see, a tunnel is the only way; just as it was/is in downtown Seattle.

      1. Unfortunately, we’re well past that. 108th serves the most people, though.

         We just don’t have the money for a tunnel, and Bellevue doesn’t have the political will to run rail through residential Bellevue Way.

      2. Yeah, although the retail core is around Bellevue Way, a large majority of transit trips are commuter trips so it makes more sense to serve the dense office/condo area than the retail area. That being said, it would be awesome to have a people mover/streetcar/prt/some other kind of little transit between the Bellevue TC station and Bellevue Square.

      3. What’s wrong with Shank’s Pony? It’s a 10 minute walk. Transit in this country is never going to work if people insist on curb to curb service everywhere they want to go. But if you need to be driven there’s always the 271 and the Bellevue Circulator should be running in the next year or so. It’s funded and the city staff has made a route recommendation to the Transportation Commission.

      4. Define “insist”. Different percentages of people are willing to walk different distances and wait different amounts of time. Just treating it as all or nothing will not help you understand how to build a transit system that gets you the best ridership for your dollar.

      5. Aren’t we learning now from the mistake of saving money by not tunneling through the Rainier Valley? Or not properly preparing the Downtown Seattle Transit Tunnel?

         We no longer have the excuse of needing to save money in order to get the system/project started/built.

         If we don’t have the money necessary to do East Link properly, then we either need to wait until we do or we should shorten the project and extend it further later.

      6. Central Link as-built is better designed and higher capacity than a majority of the light rail lines that have been built in the past 30 years.

         We need to not let the perfect become the enemy of the good enough.

         After all if money was unlimited why didn’t we build a metro system with 100% grade separation, automated 10 car trains, and 75mph running between stations?

         As it stands Bellevue is either going to get an at-grade alignment with stations at Main and 112th, 108th & 110th at 6th, and 12th at 405; or a tunnel alignment with stations at Main & 112th, 110th & 4th, and 118th & 8th.

         As for shortening the line it simply doesn’t make sense to build East Link without going all the way to Overlake Transit Center.

      7. Ben, the 108th alignment “serves the most people” only if we’re resigned to having just one station in downtown Bellevue. Makes as much sense as Metro telling Seattle that they needed only one station in downtown, at University Street, which by itself would have “served the most people”.

      8. Well, four or five times as many people work and live in downtown Seattle as in downtown Bellevue, and it’s going to stay that way. It doesn’t really make sense to have more than one stop.

      9. God forbid you’re asking the average American to look into the future and beyond their own selfish intentions.

      10. *shrug*

          You ask, and they say no. It happens.

4. Freeman says that Bell square and Southcenter are two different clientelle, but look at the anchor stores:

   Bellevue Square – Macy’s, Nordstrom and Penneys.

   South Center – Macy’s, Nordstrom and Penneys.

   Or Northgate, for the matter: Macy’s, Nordstrom and Penneys

   It doesn’t seem that different to me… A mall is a mall.

   1. The volume of sales and average sale at each are different. A Southcenter Nordstrom purchase is likely, on average, smaller than a Bellevue Square Nordstrom purchase.

      1. I believe Bellsquare is Nordstrom’s most profitable store.

      2. That’s because the same items are priced higher at the Bellevue Nordstrom store.

      3. I have never found that to be true.

      4. Lets just say this was inside information (although from a number of years ago, when being ostentatious was ‘in’).

5. I’ve made a similar argument to what you’ve got here, so I obviously agree. But it’s also worth considering the prestige aspects of having the tallest buildings on the Eastside. If light rail causes Bellevue to do an upzone, Kemper would no longer have the tallest buildings in Bellevue.

   So it’s not just that it won’t benefit him. It’s that it’d benefit others at the expense of his pride.

   1. Hah! I like it.

      And yeah, your comment made me start thinking about this.

   2. I think it’s unlikely that any time in next 20 years we’ll see Bellevue relax the 450 foot height maximum. If I remember right the long drawn out Bel-Red upcharge will limit building height to 12 stories. I doubt any rezone of auto row will allow buildings to obstruct the “Beautiful View” from City Hall.

      1. Well even covering auto row with two or three story buildings will be a dramatic increase in density.

         12 story buildings is probably about right for Bel-Red and auto row as well.

   3. [Deleted, ad-hominem]

6. Don’t forget how the land for Bellevue Square was assembled!

   Kemper’s Daddy got the Seattle press riled up about the “Yellow Peril” after Pearl Harbor and encouraged the Japanese-American farmers who owned farms in the area to be rounded up and put in camps.

   Kemper Freeman Sr. then bought the land at a heavy discount.

   And Profited!

   1. Yeah, I didn’t want to bring that up, but if he keeps going, we might need an op-ed.

   2. Do you have any references for how “Kemper’s Daddy” assembled the land for Bellevue square? There’s logic there, but I’d love to see the history in something reasonably reputable (Times, PI, etc…)

      1. Ha ha, the Times and P-I of the day were not “reasonably reputable”, in fact, they were among the worst offenders. See Dave Niewert’s blog.

7. The most upscale large mall I’m aware of is not Bell Sq but Ala Moana in Honolulu (they actually have Nieman Marcus!). It’s also a giant hub of bus service on Oahu, and will be served by their rail line sometime in the distant future. Its an upscale mall regardless of the bus service. Bell Square would be also remain a high end mall even if light rail went through downtown Bellevue. However, Bell Square seems to, and always has, had pretensions far above what it actually is, and this started WAY before I can even remember (which would be back as far the early 1960’s).
   Routing light rail up the BN right of way is a ridiculous thought. Why would you build light rail and AVOID the second largest center of employment in Washington State? Kinda like when they built Metro in DC and skipped Georgetown . . . in fact that seems like a good analogy on several levels.

   1. Neiman Marcus is in the Bravern. (Next to the transit center!)

      Neiman Marcus was previously in Westlake Center, but that store underperformed and was closed. According to a former employee, Westlake had the same problem that’s now being ascribed to Southcenter: fewer customers willing to pay $75+ for high-end versions of things.

8. Just cut East Link and focus on regions within the ST taxing district who are a little more eager to see progress and ready to be big boys. Ballard and West Seattle probably don’t give a damn if its in a tunnel or not, they just want something that isn’t 15th, 45th, or the West Seattle Bridge.

   1. I think most of the Eastside is very eager (see here). It’s just there’s a politically connection opposition that has deep pockets.

   2. If we didn’t have the subarea equity rules, we’d be looking at spending all the North King money in ST3 out in Woodinville.

   3. Please quit confusing Kemper for Bellevue. The majority moved don’t agree him and Bellevue is within it’s rights to tax itself for a tunnel.

      If Kemper lived in Ballard, you’d be arguing to cut Ballard off.

9. Would the anthropologists among us–the experts on the races–please explain to me what race of people is known to wear light blue and pink hair curlers and flopping shoes?

   To me it sounds like Freeman is talking about the type of people who climb out of bed and head to the mall. He obviously prefers the type of folks–who tend to be wealthy–who put a lot of expense and effort into their outfits. These type of folks are likely to be good customers for Nordstrom and the expensive stores.

   1. True that. I think they mean hes a classist. Is that right? Any way you know what I mean. The mall is a coffin any way.

   2. There is far more history than that one quote with Kemper Freeman Jr. to show racist tendencies. Certainly he is quite classist, to a degree not normally considered acceptable in society.

   3. That statement is not what we’re basing that particular determination on.

10. Classist is pretty easy to infer from the statements. Racist is a whole ‘nother thing. I think calling someone a racist is a pretty serious charge and I am opposed to cheapening the meaning by throwing it out there as a general pejorative term, sort of the way some of Obama’s detractors throw out fascist and Nazi.

    I am serious though in my original question: What race pops in the heads of these people calling racism when they hear flopping shoes and light blue hair curlers? Maybe it’s because I’m not a mall person, but this image calls nothing to mind with respect to a racial stereotype.

    1. Start here:

       http://eatthestate.org/02-22/SelfMadeBigot.htm

       1. That link is evidence of Miller Freeman’s racism, but not Kemper’s.

       2. During the first Sound Move campaign in 1995 (which included East Link) a fairly effective whisper campaign was started on the Bellevue side of the lake. The scare tactic used a scenario of thieves and gang members hopping on light rail at the Rainier Ave station, and taking the train to rob wealthy Bellevue residents.

          No mention of skin color back then, either. But it was obvious what the rail opponents were trying to do. And, it was obvious what color the supposed thieves and the supposed victims were.

          During the Save Our Valley lawsuit years, conservative Eastside forces capitalized on race once again, helping to fund the legal action, and foment charges of “rail racism”. Dialogue went like this: the north end got a tunnel, and they got at-grade. Which was supposed to indicate discrimination.

          Indeed, to this day, the wealthy enclave of Surrey Downs utilizes racist undercurrents in their anti-East Link activism. They love to print stories about urban Portland gangs preying on suburban Portland residents…and guess how those criminals get out to Gresham?

          So, in Ben’s defense, while we don’t like to talk about racism’s presence in politics, it certainly plays a role. The people who use racist tactics are just a lot more subtle about it now.

       3. Links from those wonderful Surrey Downs activists:

          http://www.responsibletransportationforum.org/category/crime/

          http://www.responsibletransportationforum.org/2007/11/crime-onnear-the-light-rail-line-in-gresham-oregon-seattles-sound-transit/

       4. Certainly racism adds to the potency of fears of urban youths assaulting decent middle-class folks, but that doesn’t mean that fearing violence related to transit systems is not a real fear or legitimate concern.

          High profile stories, like the hate crime where five black youth assaulted a white woman on the Portland MAX certainly play on racial fears, but represent a real problem. We know there is too much crime, sexual harassment, and anti-social behavior on Metro buses. I think so far ST has done a good job keeping Link safe, and that will be important in overcoming the arguments of Kemper.

          But again, the fact that some Eastside groups play up fears, which may manifest in racism in the minds of some receivers of the message, does not prove Kemper is a racist. I think we need to be careful in the pro-transit community to only make charges we can back up. That’s how you build credibility.

       5. T Chen: your defense of the gated white flight community mentality is understandable.

          But here’s a hypothetical for you and John Jensen: if it turned out that the land Bell Square sits on was seized from Japanese strawberry farmers who were interned (for no good reason)…would you still think it’s ok to shop there? Would racism still “not play a role” in all of this? Don’t worry – Dad probably won’t read your answers.

          Grandpa Freeman sought and acquired some of the most prime raw land in this state for the purpose of passing on his wealth and his “values” to later Freeman generations. Now that Freeman Jr is using his inherited wealth for a particular end, it’s curious that several people here are willing to write the whole thing off, and distinguish Jr.’s right wing ideology from Sr.’s right wing ideology. What, was Karl Rove’s visit to Kemper’s office a couple years ago not enough for you? Does the guy need to write a check to David Duke to un-dim the bulb above your heads?

          Almost 15 years ago, I remember reading about a man on Bainbridge Island who had renounced his grandfather’s racist anti-Japanese political activism. See, his grandfather had done just what Miller Freeman did: got the ‘Japs’ removed, and then got their land. At least this guy had the morals and the guts to come out and admit that what his descendent had done was wrong.

          I spent some time tonight trying to find a similar statement from Kemper Freeman Jr. But all I see is Kemper speaking of his idyllic childhood, a time when “things were right” in the world: the powerful “chosen ones” knew their (inherited) roles. And the powerless kept quiet. Luckily, we have moved past those days. But some elements of society still cling to them.

          Whitewashing history might make some people feel less uncomfortable about their own views and lineage – but you can’t use an eraser to right the wrongs of the past.

       6. I didn’t defend the “gated white flight community.” I said the public has some legitimate concerns about violent and anti-social behavior on METRO and on the Portland MAX. It’s mostly ordinary working class folks and women who get the harassment, not affluent old white folks from the Eastside.

          Second, if using Bell Square is illegitimate, then using much of the land in the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Mexico etc. is illegitimate as it was often seized from previous owners/occupiers. Racism would have played a role in the creation of Bell Square, but that is not the same as proving that Kemper is a racist. He may very well be. At the least he probably has some cognitive dissonance about his fortunes. It would not be the greatest surprise in the world if he were a racist, but calling someone a racist is a serious thing to me. You don’t do it loosely and without solid evidence. That’s the reasoning of the dimwitted: e.g. “Obama’s dad was a Muslim so therefore he’s a Muslim! Obama lived in a Muslim country, so he’s a Muslim.”

       7. “The scare tactic used a scenario of thieves and gang members hopping on light rail at the Rainier Ave station, and taking the train to rob wealthy Bellevue residents.”

          And it’s totally bogus. Gang activity is a business. Given that a bus conveniently runs from Rainier Avenue to Bellevue, would gang members turn up their noses at riding it if there’s money to be made? Likewise, are they so enamored by rail that it would suddenly occur to them to expand into Bellevue after it was built? That’s nonsense. And many gang-bangers own cars anyway.

       8. [Comment deleted; ad hominem]

       9. It is ridiculous to bring up internment camps in the context of the light rail discussion. You ask if Bellevue Square is illegitimate. Does that mean light rail through former Japanese farmland is illegitimate too? Let’s not even bother with this line of discussion. America and its cities have tainted histories.

          It’s not that the conversation is uncomfortable, or that I’m afraid of the conflict here, but:

          * Kemper Freeman Jr. simply cannot be held accountable for actions taken well before he was born. I think it’s an interesting piece of history. It’s one that is difficult to reconcile with a region we’re mostly proud with. But it’s plain to me that this torture history has nothing to with Freeman himself nor his disdain of public transit.

          * In trying to ascertain racial motives, commenters have made significant leaps and have linked “whisper campaigns” from 1996 to non-existent whisper campaigns today. (The most damning quote I’ve seen from Freeman was plainly talking about “white trash,” not gangs or any sort of implied racism.)

          * Attacking the person and his motives, rather than their arguments, is ad-hominem. We do not allow that in our comments. Ben’s original post did not attack Freeman’s motives, but merely tried to ascertain them. The discussion has moved beyond that.

          Frankly, I think the easiest answer about his motives is that he is a strong Republican and is against government spending. And like most Republicans, he overlooks highway spending.

       10. http://washington-state-magazine.wsu.edu/stories/2006/August/bellevuemetro-2.html

           And here’s a book:

           http://www.amazon.com/Strawberry-Days-Internment-Destroyed-Community/dp/140396792X

           I’ll bet that the foks here:

           http://www.janm.org/

           might be helpful in figuring out who the land was taken from.

11. Accusations of racism and talking about Japanese internment camps are probably not appropriate discussion topics on a transit blog. Let’s keep it adult here.

    1. Let’s keep it adult here.

       Yes, if there’s one thing I hated in elementary school, it was all the schoolyard talk about Japanese internment camps. </sarcasm>

       John, you have a fear of conflict, and you worry a little too much about doing anything that might fit with some right-wing stereotype. Sometimes you have to make some people uncomfortable, and just live with that.

       The fact is that urban planning issues in the United States have been greatly affected by racism — consider redlining, “urban renewal” in mostly nonwhite areas, and continuing problems about unequal access to services. This issue, to be sure, is a much, much, much smaller one. I’m still not convinced that Freeman’s level of racism is much greater than that of the average rich person in this reason.

       Asking whether someone may be a racist, may, in some situations be an attempt at slander. In this case, however, we’re already talking about “Kemper Freeman’s Motivation”, and in the context of a few damning quotes, it’s possible to have a rational discussion here without becoming some sort of stereotypical politically correct hyper-sensitive left-wing wildly-unfounded racism-accusing character assassination plot.

       Relax, John, and stop calling us children.

       1. Wow, ring my gong! The issue of redlining is almost totally undiscussed today, but it has huge implications. The possibility of TOD is going to be much different in a neighborhood that was redlined than it will be in a neighborhood which was never denied fair access to financial goods and services.

       2. Yep redlining on the one hand and restrictive covenants “no Negroes, Asians, or Jews” on the other have a really nasty legacy. Much of this can be seen today in the built environment of the country as a whole.

          While I don’t know to what extent Kemper Jr. was involved with restrictive covenants his father and grandfather were big fans. He and his family certainly have profited handsomely over the years on fear of the poor and the “other”.

    2. Lee Atwater was defended as a “good man” who was “not a racist”, despite the whole Willie Horton thing. It took a deathbed confession for Atwater (Karl Rove’s hero) to admit he was toying with white flight suburbanite fears for political gain.

    3. The difference between Bellevue Way and BNSF alignments have absolutely nothing to do with racism or internment camps in the 40’s, as far as we can tell. It is inappropriate and immature to create the allusions unless that is any evidence for the connection. (There isn’t.)

       We don’t allow ad hominem attacks in our comments and I’m not asking for feedback on this point.

       1. Take a look at the last paragraph in the post. The question raised there is “Why does Kemper Freeman Jr. fight light rail?”. One opinion advanced above is that it might be because Freeman believes that helping to limit the number of nonwhite people near his properties helps keep the property values up. As evidence to support the possibility that Freeman would even consider such thoughts acceptable, it has been brought up that Freeman inherited his empire from those who made it publicly known that they’d prefer white people in Bellevue.

          The bigger problem, John, is that usually when blog admins delete “ad hominems”, they’re referring to posts attacking other commenters personally. I’m now worried that some of the posts you’ve deleted as “ad hominem” could be because you felt some post got too personal about some public figure, who are rightly subject to much more scrutiny than a random individual posting a blog comment.

12. Way back when Kemper started to build on his empire in the mid 80’s (which he inherited), the city did something unthinkable: they tried to get developers like Freeman to pay for mitigation.

    That meant paying for sidewalks – something Kemper fought tooth and nail.

13. perhaps kemper despises light rail not because it will bring ‘poor’ people in, but rather entice other developers to crowd out his babies (ugly as they may be)

14. I think of Bellevue being a lot like Buckhead in Atlanta… a wealthy suburban community with tall office and residential towers and high end shopping malls. Obviously there are some big differences as far as demographics between Atlanta and Seattle. Buckhead has several MARTA stations and a pretty decent ridership of “its residents” on the rail system. But I also get the sense some of the developers and commercial property owners in Buckhead have a bias against MARTA and some of the perceived people who ride it… in fact in the Atlanta some say MARTA stands for “Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta”.

15. Kemper Freeman is one of the last of the idealogues that formulated public transit policy in the 30’s through the 60’s. Automobiles and freeways are associated with our improvement as a civilisation and therefore must be thought of as forward thinking. People who ride transit, according to people who think like him, are by nature backward, waiting for the golden age of the freedom of the open road to come to thier lives.
    We can see how history has shown this idea to be quite false, but not before our cities were gutted and wonderful transit systems and systems which had a lot of potential were ripped out.

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