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	<title>Comments on: C9T to Cost $300m Extra</title>
	<atom:link href="http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/18/c9t-to-cost-300m-extra/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/18/c9t-to-cost-300m-extra/</link>
	<description>Transit in the Greater Seattle Area</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jeff Welch</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/18/c9t-to-cost-300m-extra/#comment-84189</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 04:03:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9868#comment-84189</guid>
		<description>Ooops, my bad.  Guilty as charged.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Ooops, my bad.  Guilty as charged.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Anandakos</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/18/c9t-to-cost-300m-extra/#comment-83717</link>
		<dc:creator>Anandakos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 06:30:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9868#comment-83717</guid>
		<description>Not if there&#039;s a different bus stopped at a bay in front of it and the bus behind needs to access a bay farther on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Not if there&#8217;s a different bus stopped at a bay in front of it and the bus behind needs to access a bay farther on.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Anandakos</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/18/c9t-to-cost-300m-extra/#comment-83716</link>
		<dc:creator>Anandakos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 06:27:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9868#comment-83716</guid>
		<description>Alex,

That&#039;s because it&#039;s not &quot;signal priority&quot;, it&#039;s &quot;timed signals&quot; where the timing is triggered by the entry of a train into a station.  This is the same system they use on Max north of Lombard and east of 181st.  And you&#039;re right, if the train gets a little late (usually because someone holds the door at a station or a wheelchair ramp has to be retracted -- that may not be germane for Link) then the train is repeatedly stabbed until the next station when the cycle is reset.  

Signal priority advances or retards the signals for cross streets in realtime response to the presence of a train.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Alex,</p>
<p>That&#8217;s because it&#8217;s not &#8220;signal priority&#8221;, it&#8217;s &#8220;timed signals&#8221; where the timing is triggered by the entry of a train into a station.  This is the same system they use on Max north of Lombard and east of 181st.  And you&#8217;re right, if the train gets a little late (usually because someone holds the door at a station or a wheelchair ramp has to be retracted &#8212; that may not be germane for Link) then the train is repeatedly stabbed until the next station when the cycle is reset.  </p>
<p>Signal priority advances or retards the signals for cross streets in realtime response to the presence of a train.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: alexjonlin</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/18/c9t-to-cost-300m-extra/#comment-83389</link>
		<dc:creator>alexjonlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 05:28:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9868#comment-83389</guid>
		<description>I doubt it, WSDOT doesn&#039;t seem to be a huge fan of ST...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I doubt it, WSDOT doesn&#8217;t seem to be a huge fan of ST&#8230;<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: alexjonlin</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/18/c9t-to-cost-300m-extra/#comment-83388</link>
		<dc:creator>alexjonlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 05:27:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9868#comment-83388</guid>
		<description>You have some good points, but in all, I think we should strive to make all future rail grade-separated, unless in special circumstances such as a couple blocks in a suburb&#039;s little downtown, or an area like a railroad right-of-way where the train has no grade-crossings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
You have some good points, but in all, I think we should strive to make all future rail grade-separated, unless in special circumstances such as a couple blocks in a suburb&#8217;s little downtown, or an area like a railroad right-of-way where the train has no grade-crossings.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: alexjonlin</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/18/c9t-to-cost-300m-extra/#comment-83386</link>
		<dc:creator>alexjonlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 05:25:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9868#comment-83386</guid>
		<description>That usually doesn&#039;t happen to me. It&#039;s just if the driver ends up getting a little bit late, then the signal priority gets messed up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
That usually doesn&#8217;t happen to me. It&#8217;s just if the driver ends up getting a little bit late, then the signal priority gets messed up.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: alexjonlin</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/18/c9t-to-cost-300m-extra/#comment-83384</link>
		<dc:creator>alexjonlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 05:24:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9868#comment-83384</guid>
		<description>If the train is in a different lane than the bus, the buses will be able to go no problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
If the train is in a different lane than the bus, the buses will be able to go no problem.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: alexjonlin</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/18/c9t-to-cost-300m-extra/#comment-83382</link>
		<dc:creator>alexjonlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 05:21:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9868#comment-83382</guid>
		<description>Why</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Why<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: alexjonlin</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/18/c9t-to-cost-300m-extra/#comment-83380</link>
		<dc:creator>alexjonlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 05:20:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9868#comment-83380</guid>
		<description>And anyways, highways are frequently 80% paid for by the feds while rail projects are 40-50% at most...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
And anyways, highways are frequently 80% paid for by the feds while rail projects are 40-50% at most&#8230;<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/18/c9t-to-cost-300m-extra/#comment-83323</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 00:35:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9868#comment-83323</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;&quot;&gt;I think it’s obvious that Link should be above/below grade whenever possible.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t think you can make blanket statements like this. It really depends on the exact at-grade configuration (some allow full-speed running and don&#039;t require trains to wait for cars), ridership, and how much of a regional feeder the line will be. For example you might want to have a fully grade-separated trunk line splitting into mixed traffic street-running branch lines such as Muni, MBTA Green Line, or SEPTA Subway-Surface lines.

Remember often the choice is between running at-grade or no rail at all. Lets not let the perfect be the enemy of the good enough. If we&#039;d required MLK to be fully grade separated it likely would not have been built at all.

&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;&quot;&gt;I took Link the other day to Tukwila for the first time in months and we stopped at EVERY SINGLE red light.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That is more of a problem with how the signal priority system works and less one with at-grade operations in general.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --></p>
<blockquote cite=""><p>I think it’s obvious that Link should be above/below grade whenever possible.</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t think you can make blanket statements like this. It really depends on the exact at-grade configuration (some allow full-speed running and don&#8217;t require trains to wait for cars), ridership, and how much of a regional feeder the line will be. For example you might want to have a fully grade-separated trunk line splitting into mixed traffic street-running branch lines such as Muni, MBTA Green Line, or SEPTA Subway-Surface lines.</p>
<p>Remember often the choice is between running at-grade or no rail at all. Lets not let the perfect be the enemy of the good enough. If we&#8217;d required MLK to be fully grade separated it likely would not have been built at all.</p>
<blockquote cite=""><p>I took Link the other day to Tukwila for the first time in months and we stopped at EVERY SINGLE red light.</p></blockquote>
<p>That is more of a problem with how the signal priority system works and less one with at-grade operations in general.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: leero</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/18/c9t-to-cost-300m-extra/#comment-83299</link>
		<dc:creator>leero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 22:55:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9868#comment-83299</guid>
		<description>I agree $4 million would be a drop in this particular budget bucket - I was mainly responding to Paul&#039;s comment and raising the more general issue of private involvement in public transportation.  And I don&#039;t think anyone sees the Apple example as a &quot;donation&quot; - its an advertising investment that happens to have a public benefit when compared to a billboard or a Super Bowl ad.

Would Microsoft contributing to improved light rail service in Bellevue really be a bad thing?  If so, why?

Or, more generally, are we better off for not having advertising/private concessions/etc as part of our public systems?  

Another example, not transit related, are the public toilets that Seattle rolled out, and then rolled back in again.  My understanding is that part of the reason Seattle failed with these (as opposed to San Francisco) was that we paid for everything with public funds (as opposed to advertisers covering most or all of the costs).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I agree $4 million would be a drop in this particular budget bucket &#8211; I was mainly responding to Paul&#8217;s comment and raising the more general issue of private involvement in public transportation.  And I don&#8217;t think anyone sees the Apple example as a &#8220;donation&#8221; &#8211; its an advertising investment that happens to have a public benefit when compared to a billboard or a Super Bowl ad.</p>
<p>Would Microsoft contributing to improved light rail service in Bellevue really be a bad thing?  If so, why?</p>
<p>Or, more generally, are we better off for not having advertising/private concessions/etc as part of our public systems?  </p>
<p>Another example, not transit related, are the public toilets that Seattle rolled out, and then rolled back in again.  My understanding is that part of the reason Seattle failed with these (as opposed to San Francisco) was that we paid for everything with public funds (as opposed to advertisers covering most or all of the costs).<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: aw</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/18/c9t-to-cost-300m-extra/#comment-83280</link>
		<dc:creator>aw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 22:16:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9868#comment-83280</guid>
		<description>If ST were to put a tunnel in downtown Bellevue, it would just slow down any extension to Overlake or (eventually) Redmond.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
If ST were to put a tunnel in downtown Bellevue, it would just slow down any extension to Overlake or (eventually) Redmond.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Anc</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/18/c9t-to-cost-300m-extra/#comment-83229</link>
		<dc:creator>Anc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:15:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9868#comment-83229</guid>
		<description>Has WSDOT released their wishlist (and you know they have one) for what they would ask for if Stimulus Package Rnd 2 were to come about?

Would the tunnel be a possible candidate for such funding?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Has WSDOT released their wishlist (and you know they have one) for what they would ask for if Stimulus Package Rnd 2 were to come about?</p>
<p>Would the tunnel be a possible candidate for such funding?<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: barman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/18/c9t-to-cost-300m-extra/#comment-83202</link>
		<dc:creator>barman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:13:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9868#comment-83202</guid>
		<description>Oh okay, it was just your average reverse commute on Link. Stops every 10 seconds of 30 seconds or more pretty much the whole way down MLK. Everyone in the train was groaning. Then it happened again on my way back into Seattle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Oh okay, it was just your average reverse commute on Link. Stops every 10 seconds of 30 seconds or more pretty much the whole way down MLK. Everyone in the train was groaning. Then it happened again on my way back into Seattle.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: ericn</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/18/c9t-to-cost-300m-extra/#comment-83196</link>
		<dc:creator>ericn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:53:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9868#comment-83196</guid>
		<description>No, yesterday.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
No, yesterday.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: barman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/18/c9t-to-cost-300m-extra/#comment-83194</link>
		<dc:creator>barman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:42:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9868#comment-83194</guid>
		<description>Was this last Sunday? All day, morning and evening?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Was this last Sunday? All day, morning and evening?<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: ericn</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/18/c9t-to-cost-300m-extra/#comment-83188</link>
		<dc:creator>ericn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:30:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9868#comment-83188</guid>
		<description>If your trip to Tukwila was in the evening, there was a power outage in Rainier Valley that delayed Link from Columbia City south. The trains were still running, but each intersection was a 4-way stop.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
If your trip to Tukwila was in the evening, there was a power outage in Rainier Valley that delayed Link from Columbia City south. The trains were still running, but each intersection was a 4-way stop.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Anandakos</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/18/c9t-to-cost-300m-extra/#comment-83186</link>
		<dc:creator>Anandakos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:29:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9868#comment-83186</guid>
		<description>Paragraph 2 should read &quot;The issue is that when a train &lt;i&gt;in C11A&lt;/i&gt; is stopped at the station...&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Paragraph 2 should read &#8220;The issue is that when a train <i>in C11A</i> is stopped at the station&#8230;&#8221;<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Anandakos</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/18/c9t-to-cost-300m-extra/#comment-83183</link>
		<dc:creator>Anandakos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:21:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9868#comment-83183</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re right, they&#039;re don&#039;t and I didn&#039;t mean to imply that they did; but I also don&#039;t think that I did imply that.  I just mentioned C4A because it has a contra-flow proposal, but if both tracks are on 108th NE it&#039;s very likely that C11A would &lt;b&gt;not&lt;/b&gt; be contra-flow.  I probably should have just ignored the issue and let people figure it out for themselves.  

The issue is that when a train is stopped at the station, the &lt;b&gt;only&lt;/b&gt; buses that can move will be the ones at the last bay on the side by the train which can depart and one entering the first bay on that side.  Buses already in the middle and first bay can not depart and buses destined for the middle and last bay can not enter.  

When the train is entering or leaving the station they will probably all be instructed to wait, for safety.  

It won&#039;t work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
You&#8217;re right, they&#8217;re don&#8217;t and I didn&#8217;t mean to imply that they did; but I also don&#8217;t think that I did imply that.  I just mentioned C4A because it has a contra-flow proposal, but if both tracks are on 108th NE it&#8217;s very likely that C11A would <b>not</b> be contra-flow.  I probably should have just ignored the issue and let people figure it out for themselves.  </p>
<p>The issue is that when a train is stopped at the station, the <b>only</b> buses that can move will be the ones at the last bay on the side by the train which can depart and one entering the first bay on that side.  Buses already in the middle and first bay can not depart and buses destined for the middle and last bay can not enter.  </p>
<p>When the train is entering or leaving the station they will probably all be instructed to wait, for safety.  </p>
<p>It won&#8217;t work.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: barman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/18/c9t-to-cost-300m-extra/#comment-83182</link>
		<dc:creator>barman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:18:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9868#comment-83182</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s obvious that Link should be above/below grade whenever possible. I took Link the other day to Tukwila for the first time in months and we stopped at EVERY SINGLE red light. It was horrible.

Once Link is extended, delays in that section will slow the entire region down. We need to avoid that mistake in the future.

If we can&#039;t tunnel we should either find more funding, elevate it, or use the BNSF corridor. Link should not be at grade and should not be at the mercy of traffic lights!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I think it&#8217;s obvious that Link should be above/below grade whenever possible. I took Link the other day to Tukwila for the first time in months and we stopped at EVERY SINGLE red light. It was horrible.</p>
<p>Once Link is extended, delays in that section will slow the entire region down. We need to avoid that mistake in the future.</p>
<p>If we can&#8217;t tunnel we should either find more funding, elevate it, or use the BNSF corridor. Link should not be at grade and should not be at the mercy of traffic lights!<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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