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	<title>Comments on: Point Defiance Bypass Simulation Shows Little Impact</title>
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	<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/19/point-defiance-bypass-simulation-shows-little-impact/</link>
	<description>Transit in the Greater Seattle Area</description>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/19/point-defiance-bypass-simulation-shows-little-impact/#comment-83945</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 07:41:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9931#comment-83945</guid>
		<description>The gate he jogged around isn&#039;t a car gate, it&#039;s a pedestrian gate, over the sidewalk, curb separated from car traffic.  

Having pedestrian gates close at the same time as car gates encourages pedestrians to bypass the gates.  You can see similar behavior at the pedestrian gates at Sounder stations -- the gate closes, pedestrians see the train is still ridiculously far away, and they cross against the gate.</description>
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The gate he jogged around isn&#8217;t a car gate, it&#8217;s a pedestrian gate, over the sidewalk, curb separated from car traffic.  </p>
<p>Having pedestrian gates close at the same time as car gates encourages pedestrians to bypass the gates.  You can see similar behavior at the pedestrian gates at Sounder stations &#8212; the gate closes, pedestrians see the train is still ridiculously far away, and they cross against the gate.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: DJStroky</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/19/point-defiance-bypass-simulation-shows-little-impact/#comment-83904</link>
		<dc:creator>DJStroky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 00:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9931#comment-83904</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a little late in the comments here, but just want to say that that&#039;s some pretty sweet transportation visualization software in that third video *wink*.

After seeing the simulation, a few thoughts come to mind.

1.  The simulation is already majorly congested.  This can be seen by the vehicles stretching to the end of the roads where they originate from.  So the 2020 situation is already pretty dire, meaning that without a change in vehicle trips or intersection capacity upgrades traffic will probably be in the same realm of poor performance with or without trains.
2.  The European truck model is just not valid for simulation in the US.  Dear US traffic consultants: please modify the 3D truck model inputs.
3.  It would&#039;ve been a lot sweeter if the ICE train in our new 3D vehicle fleet was used instead.
4.  That&#039;s pretty cool that they modeled the traffic gate going onto the base.
5.  This confirms the importance of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/I5/FtLewisMcChordTransportation/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I-5 Fort Lewis Study&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I&#8217;m a little late in the comments here, but just want to say that that&#8217;s some pretty sweet transportation visualization software in that third video *wink*.</p>
<p>After seeing the simulation, a few thoughts come to mind.</p>
<p>1.  The simulation is already majorly congested.  This can be seen by the vehicles stretching to the end of the roads where they originate from.  So the 2020 situation is already pretty dire, meaning that without a change in vehicle trips or intersection capacity upgrades traffic will probably be in the same realm of poor performance with or without trains.<br />
2.  The European truck model is just not valid for simulation in the US.  Dear US traffic consultants: please modify the 3D truck model inputs.<br />
3.  It would&#8217;ve been a lot sweeter if the ICE train in our new 3D vehicle fleet was used instead.<br />
4.  That&#8217;s pretty cool that they modeled the traffic gate going onto the base.<br />
5.  This confirms the importance of the <a href="http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/I5/FtLewisMcChordTransportation/" rel="nofollow">I-5 Fort Lewis Study</a>.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Tooley</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/19/point-defiance-bypass-simulation-shows-little-impact/#comment-83884</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Tooley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:14:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9931#comment-83884</guid>
		<description>Good article Ben.  I tend to take local opinion to start, but you may have a point here.  Certainly it looks as if any issues should be easily resolvable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Good article Ben.  I tend to take local opinion to start, but you may have a point here.  Certainly it looks as if any issues should be easily resolvable.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Anandakos</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/19/point-defiance-bypass-simulation-shows-little-impact/#comment-83588</link>
		<dc:creator>Anandakos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 21:54:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9931#comment-83588</guid>
		<description>Brian,

Now I know this is a semantic thing, but I really doubt that Metrolink has actual &quot;Automatic Train Stop&quot; with the flippers.  They probably have some sort of computerized cab signal override system that big holes the train if a signal is passed (&quot;Positive Train Control&quot; of one form or another).  

Yes, the San Diegans have traveled the route for a long time and might have had it when it was owned and operated by Santa Fe, but it&#039;s been upgraded several times since Metrolink was established.  Surely they would have replaced such a high-maintenance mechanical system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Brian,</p>
<p>Now I know this is a semantic thing, but I really doubt that Metrolink has actual &#8220;Automatic Train Stop&#8221; with the flippers.  They probably have some sort of computerized cab signal override system that big holes the train if a signal is passed (&#8220;Positive Train Control&#8221; of one form or another).  </p>
<p>Yes, the San Diegans have traveled the route for a long time and might have had it when it was owned and operated by Santa Fe, but it&#8217;s been upgraded several times since Metrolink was established.  Surely they would have replaced such a high-maintenance mechanical system.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/19/point-defiance-bypass-simulation-shows-little-impact/#comment-83574</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 20:57:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9931#comment-83574</guid>
		<description>But the gate drops for cars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
But the gate drops for cars.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: josh</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/19/point-defiance-bypass-simulation-shows-little-impact/#comment-83561</link>
		<dc:creator>josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:43:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9931#comment-83561</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t suggest he drive laps on the tracks.  He&#039;s a pedestrian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I didn&#8217;t suggest he drive laps on the tracks.  He&#8217;s a pedestrian.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/19/point-defiance-bypass-simulation-shows-little-impact/#comment-83555</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:14:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9931#comment-83555</guid>
		<description>If I remember from the long-range plan the state wants to keep freight off the high-speed passenger tracks because freight pounds the crap out of the railbed and can&#039;t have curves elevated as much as passenger lines can. So yea, it is a maintenance issue. 
I don&#039;t think WSDOT has a problem with Talgo trains sharing tracks with more conventional equipment like Amtrak long-distance trains or Sounder. The only real issues there are the more conventional equipment is heavier so it can&#039;t accelerate/decelerate as fast, it can&#039;t go quite as fast through curves as tilting trainsets, and I believe the maximum speed is a tad lower (90 MPH vs. 110 MPH)</description>
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If I remember from the long-range plan the state wants to keep freight off the high-speed passenger tracks because freight pounds the crap out of the railbed and can&#8217;t have curves elevated as much as passenger lines can. So yea, it is a maintenance issue.<br />
I don&#8217;t think WSDOT has a problem with Talgo trains sharing tracks with more conventional equipment like Amtrak long-distance trains or Sounder. The only real issues there are the more conventional equipment is heavier so it can&#8217;t accelerate/decelerate as fast, it can&#8217;t go quite as fast through curves as tilting trainsets, and I believe the maximum speed is a tad lower (90 MPH vs. 110 MPH)<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Seth</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/19/point-defiance-bypass-simulation-shows-little-impact/#comment-83544</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:44:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9931#comment-83544</guid>
		<description>Brian - isn&#039;t wsdot already requesting stimulus money to upgrade the entire corridor to class v track?</description>
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Brian &#8211; isn&#8217;t wsdot already requesting stimulus money to upgrade the entire corridor to class v track?<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Cal</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/19/point-defiance-bypass-simulation-shows-little-impact/#comment-83540</link>
		<dc:creator>Cal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:37:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9931#comment-83540</guid>
		<description>In the mixed areas the freight trains have to go faster,too, or elso the overtakes would be impossible to manage.  BNSF for one does not what to take coal and grain trains to 70 mph or more as it would cost them more in fuel and pounding of the tracks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
In the mixed areas the freight trains have to go faster,too, or elso the overtakes would be impossible to manage.  BNSF for one does not what to take coal and grain trains to 70 mph or more as it would cost them more in fuel and pounding of the tracks.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Brian Bundridge</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/19/point-defiance-bypass-simulation-shows-little-impact/#comment-83516</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Bundridge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:38:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9931#comment-83516</guid>
		<description>Seth...think maintenance costs. The state probably doesn&#039;t want to pay an extra amount of money for freight and passenger use...even though it would benefit greatly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Seth&#8230;think maintenance costs. The state probably doesn&#8217;t want to pay an extra amount of money for freight and passenger use&#8230;even though it would benefit greatly.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Brian Bundridge</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/19/point-defiance-bypass-simulation-shows-little-impact/#comment-83515</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Bundridge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:37:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9931#comment-83515</guid>
		<description>How does the ATS work on the Surfline? I believe ATS starts at Santa Ana on the route and Coaster, Metrolink, and Amtrak Surfliner service all are permitted at 90mph. Not sure what the freight speed is however.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
How does the ATS work on the Surfline? I believe ATS starts at Santa Ana on the route and Coaster, Metrolink, and Amtrak Surfliner service all are permitted at 90mph. Not sure what the freight speed is however.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Brian Bundridge</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/19/point-defiance-bypass-simulation-shows-little-impact/#comment-83514</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Bundridge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:35:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9931#comment-83514</guid>
		<description>Zed, I would have to say that if the State really wanted to do it right, they should upgrade the current 2 mains to Class V track (Freight 70mph), Passenger 90mph) and the dedicated passenger tracks to Class VI (Passenger 110mph). That would keep everything running as it does now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Zed, I would have to say that if the State really wanted to do it right, they should upgrade the current 2 mains to Class V track (Freight 70mph), Passenger 90mph) and the dedicated passenger tracks to Class VI (Passenger 110mph). That would keep everything running as it does now.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Brian Bundridge</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/19/point-defiance-bypass-simulation-shows-little-impact/#comment-83513</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Bundridge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:31:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9931#comment-83513</guid>
		<description>Any grade crossing can be separated, it is the cost that makes it hard to do. By adding grade separation, you add several thousand to millions of dollars to the design and overall cost of the project. 

I would say that the major crossings at this point would be 212th, James, Smith and Willis Streets in Kent.

If they wanted to shave off some more time, they could reduce the curve at Stewart to keep the train speeds up though the curves that lead into Tacoma would still slow traffic down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Any grade crossing can be separated, it is the cost that makes it hard to do. By adding grade separation, you add several thousand to millions of dollars to the design and overall cost of the project. </p>
<p>I would say that the major crossings at this point would be 212th, James, Smith and Willis Streets in Kent.</p>
<p>If they wanted to shave off some more time, they could reduce the curve at Stewart to keep the train speeds up though the curves that lead into Tacoma would still slow traffic down.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Brian Bundridge</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/19/point-defiance-bypass-simulation-shows-little-impact/#comment-83512</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Bundridge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:28:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9931#comment-83512</guid>
		<description>And is planning 5 more at-grade streetcar routes and upwards of 3 more at-grade light rail routes... how terrible that they do that!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
And is planning 5 more at-grade streetcar routes and upwards of 3 more at-grade light rail routes&#8230; how terrible that they do that!!<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: aw</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/19/point-defiance-bypass-simulation-shows-little-impact/#comment-83509</link>
		<dc:creator>aw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:58:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9931#comment-83509</guid>
		<description>Ah, that makes sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Ah, that makes sense.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Schiendelman</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/19/point-defiance-bypass-simulation-shows-little-impact/#comment-83492</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Schiendelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:01:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9931#comment-83492</guid>
		<description>Hear, hear.

I wasn&#039;t very clear, though - I meant our state legislators could help us get wayside horns. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Hear, hear.</p>
<p>I wasn&#8217;t very clear, though &#8211; I meant our state legislators could help us get wayside horns. :)<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/19/point-defiance-bypass-simulation-shows-little-impact/#comment-83488</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:44:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9931#comment-83488</guid>
		<description>I can hear those horns clear up in the CD - although honestly they don&#039;t bother me, I&#039;ve come to see them as one of the city background noises, like police and fire sirens, airplanes (we&#039;re in the flight path), etc. But I definitely get how they could be really annoying for folks who live closer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I can hear those horns clear up in the CD &#8211; although honestly they don&#8217;t bother me, I&#8217;ve come to see them as one of the city background noises, like police and fire sirens, airplanes (we&#8217;re in the flight path), etc. But I definitely get how they could be really annoying for folks who live closer.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/19/point-defiance-bypass-simulation-shows-little-impact/#comment-83468</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:11:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9931#comment-83468</guid>
		<description>Yea, Portland hated at-grade light rail through downtown so much that they built an at-grade streetcar and another at-grade light rail line.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Yea, Portland hated at-grade light rail through downtown so much that they built an at-grade streetcar and another at-grade light rail line.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Anandakos</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/19/point-defiance-bypass-simulation-shows-little-impact/#comment-83434</link>
		<dc:creator>Anandakos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 09:16:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9931#comment-83434</guid>
		<description>That clatter you heard from the wheels was probably the insulated joint isolating the track circuit that lifts the gates.  Crossings have several track circuits that work together to drop the gates well in advance of an approaching train but also lift them promptly after it passes.

You wouldn&#039;t want the gates to stay down for as long as it took that freight train to go the same distance past the crossing as it was before the crossing when the gates started flashing.  So they have far circuits and near ones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
That clatter you heard from the wheels was probably the insulated joint isolating the track circuit that lifts the gates.  Crossings have several track circuits that work together to drop the gates well in advance of an approaching train but also lift them promptly after it passes.</p>
<p>You wouldn&#8217;t want the gates to stay down for as long as it took that freight train to go the same distance past the crossing as it was before the crossing when the gates started flashing.  So they have far circuits and near ones.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Bernie</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/19/point-defiance-bypass-simulation-shows-little-impact/#comment-83430</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 08:35:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9931#comment-83430</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;would put in a tunnel if they could have&lt;/blockquote&gt;
There is the take home statement. We can&#039;t! If we can then show me the money. I&#039;m not going to support a tax on Bellevue that would pay for it and there isn&#039;t the money in the east sub-area fund to build it. The choices are; avoid downtown, find an at grade or elevated alignment that works, or try and kill East Link.  Avoiding downtown means we spend a huge amount of Bellevue tax dollars and minimize it&#039;s value. I can&#039;t get behind that. Killing East Link, OK I&#039;m not convinced that buses wouldn&#039;t do the job better for less money for a number of years. But, the reality of stopping light rail at this point is pretty small and the costs are pretty high; not a good bet. That leaves finding the best at grade or elevated alignment. Frankly I&#039;d hoped for much better for the 114th option. I&#039;m still listening but the Vision Line as presented is; number one without a cost or ridership estimate  and number two has what I believe a very negative visual impact on the city and on the utility of the Overlake Hospital Station. I&#039;d really like to see 110th at grade advanced to the level that the city did the Main Street make over planning. I see ways this can really work for transit, traffic and bike/ped access (did I just equate bikes and pedestrian access as being somehow the same? Shame on me).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --></p>
<blockquote><p>would put in a tunnel if they could have</p></blockquote>
<p>There is the take home statement. We can&#8217;t! If we can then show me the money. I&#8217;m not going to support a tax on Bellevue that would pay for it and there isn&#8217;t the money in the east sub-area fund to build it. The choices are; avoid downtown, find an at grade or elevated alignment that works, or try and kill East Link.  Avoiding downtown means we spend a huge amount of Bellevue tax dollars and minimize it&#8217;s value. I can&#8217;t get behind that. Killing East Link, OK I&#8217;m not convinced that buses wouldn&#8217;t do the job better for less money for a number of years. But, the reality of stopping light rail at this point is pretty small and the costs are pretty high; not a good bet. That leaves finding the best at grade or elevated alignment. Frankly I&#8217;d hoped for much better for the 114th option. I&#8217;m still listening but the Vision Line as presented is; number one without a cost or ridership estimate  and number two has what I believe a very negative visual impact on the city and on the utility of the Overlake Hospital Station. I&#8217;d really like to see 110th at grade advanced to the level that the city did the Main Street make over planning. I see ways this can really work for transit, traffic and bike/ped access (did I just equate bikes and pedestrian access as being somehow the same? Shame on me).<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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