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	<title>Comments on: Sunday Open Thread: A Tale of Six Cities</title>
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	<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/22/sunday-open-thread-a-tale-of-six-cities/</link>
	<description>Transit in the Greater Seattle Area</description>
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		<title>By: Mike Orr</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/22/sunday-open-thread-a-tale-of-six-cities/#comment-85127</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Orr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:03:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9928#comment-85127</guid>
		<description>&quot;I’ve liked Weedin Place as a transit ROW for a long time&quot;

I had to look on a map to see where Weedin Place is. It&#039;s where I used to bike to Northgate when I lived in the U district.  Yes, it&#039;s a good location for a streetcar.

I can see a use for a route on 25th and 65th. But if 65th is too narrow, I started thinking further south, like 55th. But there&#039;s no way to get through the hillside between 15th and 25th where the streets get really narrow on the hillside. Unless you went through Ravenna Park (just kidding). So maybe a bus from UW station to Roosevelt Station on 25th &amp; 65th is the best we can hope for.</description>
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&#8220;I’ve liked Weedin Place as a transit ROW for a long time&#8221;</p>
<p>I had to look on a map to see where Weedin Place is. It&#8217;s where I used to bike to Northgate when I lived in the U district.  Yes, it&#8217;s a good location for a streetcar.</p>
<p>I can see a use for a route on 25th and 65th. But if 65th is too narrow, I started thinking further south, like 55th. But there&#8217;s no way to get through the hillside between 15th and 25th where the streets get really narrow on the hillside. Unless you went through Ravenna Park (just kidding). So maybe a bus from UW station to Roosevelt Station on 25th &amp; 65th is the best we can hope for.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Mickymse</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/22/sunday-open-thread-a-tale-of-six-cities/#comment-84706</link>
		<dc:creator>Mickymse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:44:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9928#comment-84706</guid>
		<description>A number of folks exit I-5 at Mercer to park in lots around Seattle Center -- where monthly parking passes are considerably cheaper than in the CBD -- and commute to work on the Monorail.

I&#039;ll try to get some numbers if I can get a meeting with them soon to lobby for ORCA readers on the monorail.</description>
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A number of folks exit I-5 at Mercer to park in lots around Seattle Center &#8212; where monthly parking passes are considerably cheaper than in the CBD &#8212; and commute to work on the Monorail.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll try to get some numbers if I can get a meeting with them soon to lobby for ORCA readers on the monorail.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Mike Orr</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/22/sunday-open-thread-a-tale-of-six-cities/#comment-84652</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Orr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 18:34:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9928#comment-84652</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re assuming the UW would be willing to give up part of its parking lot. A route on 25th/65th/Ravenna probably would get used because the 25th Avenue bus seems to be popular. 

But as others have said, there&#039;s no way you&#039;d get the Ravenna Boulevard median because that would destroy a park that people feel strongly about preserving. However, running it on the street there might be doable. Some people (like me) would consider that a visual enhancement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
You&#8217;re assuming the UW would be willing to give up part of its parking lot. A route on 25th/65th/Ravenna probably would get used because the 25th Avenue bus seems to be popular. </p>
<p>But as others have said, there&#8217;s no way you&#8217;d get the Ravenna Boulevard median because that would destroy a park that people feel strongly about preserving. However, running it on the street there might be doable. Some people (like me) would consider that a visual enhancement.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Mike Orr</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/22/sunday-open-thread-a-tale-of-six-cities/#comment-84647</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Orr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 18:16:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9928#comment-84647</guid>
		<description>Eastside residents voted to spend their own taxes on Link. Who are we to tell them they can&#039;t have it?

A Seattle-Eastside rail route has been on the drawing boards since the 1960s, so it&#039;s clearly time. The 550 is essentially BRT (except evenings/Sundays). 

I do believe that &quot;If you build it, they will come&quot;. (Unless you put it in a really bad location.) A lot of potential trips on Bel-Red or between Redmond and Bellevue aren&#039;t being made by transit because there is no rapid transit. 

Plus, there&#039;s an argument that the only way to get rail on the Eastside is to build a starter line on the Eastside. Then after people get used to it, they&#039;ll want more. And it would be odd for Seattle to say, &quot;Light rail is wonderful, we&#039;re very happy about it, it should go everywhere ... but we don&#039;t support building it on the Eastside at this time.&quot;  It also diminishes the impression that &quot;Seattle gets all the transit dollars&quot;.</description>
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Eastside residents voted to spend their own taxes on Link. Who are we to tell them they can&#8217;t have it?</p>
<p>A Seattle-Eastside rail route has been on the drawing boards since the 1960s, so it&#8217;s clearly time. The 550 is essentially BRT (except evenings/Sundays). </p>
<p>I do believe that &#8220;If you build it, they will come&#8221;. (Unless you put it in a really bad location.) A lot of potential trips on Bel-Red or between Redmond and Bellevue aren&#8217;t being made by transit because there is no rapid transit. </p>
<p>Plus, there&#8217;s an argument that the only way to get rail on the Eastside is to build a starter line on the Eastside. Then after people get used to it, they&#8217;ll want more. And it would be odd for Seattle to say, &#8220;Light rail is wonderful, we&#8217;re very happy about it, it should go everywhere &#8230; but we don&#8217;t support building it on the Eastside at this time.&#8221;  It also diminishes the impression that &#8220;Seattle gets all the transit dollars&#8221;.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Jim Cusick</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/22/sunday-open-thread-a-tale-of-six-cities/#comment-84542</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Cusick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 05:44:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9928#comment-84542</guid>
		<description>Then it&#039;s reasonable to apply sub-area equity to road projects?

I&#039;d love to see that plan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Then it&#8217;s reasonable to apply sub-area equity to road projects?</p>
<p>I&#8217;d love to see that plan.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/22/sunday-open-thread-a-tale-of-six-cities/#comment-84540</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 05:39:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9928#comment-84540</guid>
		<description>To be fair there was some NIMBY type arguments against the 8th ave alignments. Mostly about adding more concrete over Ravenna Boulevard and the several blocks of single family homes that would have been removed along 8th north of the station. Also it added fuel to the &quot;save our valley&quot; fire about the north end getting a tunnel while the south end got at grade.

Though to be fair Roosevelt did say they&#039;d take more density if the station was moved to 12th. They also asked for a neighborhood plan update with upzones around the station as part of dealing with the Sisley property redevelopment.</description>
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To be fair there was some NIMBY type arguments against the 8th ave alignments. Mostly about adding more concrete over Ravenna Boulevard and the several blocks of single family homes that would have been removed along 8th north of the station. Also it added fuel to the &#8220;save our valley&#8221; fire about the north end getting a tunnel while the south end got at grade.</p>
<p>Though to be fair Roosevelt did say they&#8217;d take more density if the station was moved to 12th. They also asked for a neighborhood plan update with upzones around the station as part of dealing with the Sisley property redevelopment.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: alexjonlin</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/22/sunday-open-thread-a-tale-of-six-cities/#comment-84534</link>
		<dc:creator>alexjonlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 05:18:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9928#comment-84534</guid>
		<description>You could have the U-Line streetcar continue up from the Ave (the Upper Ave has always seemed wayy to wide to me; perfect for a streetcar) and along 15th, turning left on 65th and joining my proposed line to Green Lake.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
You could have the U-Line streetcar continue up from the Ave (the Upper Ave has always seemed wayy to wide to me; perfect for a streetcar) and along 15th, turning left on 65th and joining my proposed line to Green Lake.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: archie</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/22/sunday-open-thread-a-tale-of-six-cities/#comment-84533</link>
		<dc:creator>archie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 05:06:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9928#comment-84533</guid>
		<description>agreed.  we should be commending Roosevelt for their IMBYism</description>
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agreed.  we should be commending Roosevelt for their IMBYism<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Oran Viriyincy</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/22/sunday-open-thread-a-tale-of-six-cities/#comment-84503</link>
		<dc:creator>Oran Viriyincy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 03:12:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9928#comment-84503</guid>
		<description>Removing trees on Ravenna would make people scream. Or maybe we should daylight the creek.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Removing trees on Ravenna would make people scream. Or maybe we should daylight the creek.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Anandakos</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/22/sunday-open-thread-a-tale-of-six-cities/#comment-84500</link>
		<dc:creator>Anandakos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 03:08:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9928#comment-84500</guid>
		<description>One wouldn&#039;t want to miss the Ave.  It was a streetcar ROW at one time and is plenty wide enough for one again.  The Ravenna median is the same width at its intersection with University Avenue as it is at Roosevelt or 12th.  If one is going to mess up the median, might was well use it all the way to the end.  

However using the median isn&#039;t a good idea because of the creek underneath it and all the trees that would have to be removed.  But that doesn&#039;t rule out the roadway.  The car would of course have to run in mixed traffic because there are the bike lanes, but there is little enough traffic to accept that.  

Now you might put the &lt;i&gt;bike lane&lt;/i&gt; in the median without disrupting anything.  Then the bike lanes would be available for the street car.  

The overriding weakness is that it doesn&#039;t serve the Roosevelt or the Brooklyn Link station.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
One wouldn&#8217;t want to miss the Ave.  It was a streetcar ROW at one time and is plenty wide enough for one again.  The Ravenna median is the same width at its intersection with University Avenue as it is at Roosevelt or 12th.  If one is going to mess up the median, might was well use it all the way to the end.  </p>
<p>However using the median isn&#8217;t a good idea because of the creek underneath it and all the trees that would have to be removed.  But that doesn&#8217;t rule out the roadway.  The car would of course have to run in mixed traffic because there are the bike lanes, but there is little enough traffic to accept that.  </p>
<p>Now you might put the <i>bike lane</i> in the median without disrupting anything.  Then the bike lanes would be available for the street car.  </p>
<p>The overriding weakness is that it doesn&#8217;t serve the Roosevelt or the Brooklyn Link station.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Erik G.</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/22/sunday-open-thread-a-tale-of-six-cities/#comment-84477</link>
		<dc:creator>Erik G.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 02:03:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9928#comment-84477</guid>
		<description>http://www.tbmexchange.com/pages.php?page=boring_machines

Somebody bought it.  See machine #617 at the above website.  I wonder who bought it?  Brian?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
<a href="http://www.tbmexchange.com/pages.php?page=boring_machines" rel="nofollow">http://www.tbmexchange.com/pages.php?page=boring_machines</a></p>
<p>Somebody bought it.  See machine #617 at the above website.  I wonder who bought it?  Brian?<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Oran Viriyincy</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/22/sunday-open-thread-a-tale-of-six-cities/#comment-84468</link>
		<dc:creator>Oran Viriyincy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 01:48:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9928#comment-84468</guid>
		<description>It isn&#039;t steep enough to make it on the City&#039;s top 20 steepest streets. Those range around 18%-21% grades, most of them on Queen Anne Hill.

http://www.seattle.gov/transportation/steepest.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
It isn&#8217;t steep enough to make it on the City&#8217;s top 20 steepest streets. Those range around 18%-21% grades, most of them on Queen Anne Hill.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.seattle.gov/transportation/steepest.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.seattle.gov/transportation/steepest.htm</a><!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Kaleci</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/22/sunday-open-thread-a-tale-of-six-cities/#comment-84467</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaleci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 01:44:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9928#comment-84467</guid>
		<description>I wonder if you made it run every 30 minutes and had it serve the Lighthouse for the Blind, if you could replace service on the 4 Judkins Park?  With the 48 on 23rd and the frequency of the 8 improving on Martin Luther King, I think there is some opportunity for budget savings.</description>
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I wonder if you made it run every 30 minutes and had it serve the Lighthouse for the Blind, if you could replace service on the 4 Judkins Park?  With the 48 on 23rd and the frequency of the 8 improving on Martin Luther King, I think there is some opportunity for budget savings.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Oran Viriyincy</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/22/sunday-open-thread-a-tale-of-six-cities/#comment-84466</link>
		<dc:creator>Oran Viriyincy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 01:41:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9928#comment-84466</guid>
		<description>Quotes from King County Metro&#039;s Transit Milestones page:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;b&gt;1953&lt;/b&gt; State Highway Department rejects Seattle Transit proposal for rail transit in new Central Seattle Freeway (future Interstate-5).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;1956&lt;/strong&gt; Seattle Transit Commission appeals to the State Highway Commission to include transit right-of-ways in the design of Interstate 5. The request is rejected as too expensive due to an estimated $16 million price tag.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;b&gt;1960&lt;/b&gt; Puget Sound Regional Transportation Study begins to plan new freeway system but rules out rail transit.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;b&gt;1968&lt;/b&gt; Voters pass seven Forward Thrust bonds, but not transit plan, on February 13. The $1.15 billion transit plan included 49 miles of rail serving Ballard, northeast Seattle, Bellevue and Renton.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So there you have it. It was considered by Seattle Transit but the state didn&#039;t agree and built the freeway without consideration for future conversion to rail transit. I think that&#039;s one reason the Forward Thrust plan didn&#039;t use I-5.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Quotes from King County Metro&#8217;s Transit Milestones page:</p>
<blockquote>
<p><b>1953</b> State Highway Department rejects Seattle Transit proposal for rail transit in new Central Seattle Freeway (future Interstate-5).</p>
<p><strong>1956</strong> Seattle Transit Commission appeals to the State Highway Commission to include transit right-of-ways in the design of Interstate 5. The request is rejected as too expensive due to an estimated $16 million price tag.</p>
<p><b>1960</b> Puget Sound Regional Transportation Study begins to plan new freeway system but rules out rail transit.</p>
<p><b>1968</b> Voters pass seven Forward Thrust bonds, but not transit plan, on February 13. The $1.15 billion transit plan included 49 miles of rail serving Ballard, northeast Seattle, Bellevue and Renton.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>So there you have it. It was considered by Seattle Transit but the state didn&#8217;t agree and built the freeway without consideration for future conversion to rail transit. I think that&#8217;s one reason the Forward Thrust plan didn&#8217;t use I-5.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: alexjonlin</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/22/sunday-open-thread-a-tale-of-six-cities/#comment-84458</link>
		<dc:creator>alexjonlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 01:09:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9928#comment-84458</guid>
		<description>The stop at 8th would have been 4 blocks from the center of the commercial district, and would have had very little TOD potential. The 12th alignment, though, is right in the middle of the neighborhood, surrounded by a few TOD-ready blocks, and just two or three blocks from the Sisley development, which no matter how the council decides to zone it will probably have at least one or two thousand people in it. This station is much better.</description>
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The stop at 8th would have been 4 blocks from the center of the commercial district, and would have had very little TOD potential. The 12th alignment, though, is right in the middle of the neighborhood, surrounded by a few TOD-ready blocks, and just two or three blocks from the Sisley development, which no matter how the council decides to zone it will probably have at least one or two thousand people in it. This station is much better.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: joshuadf</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/22/sunday-open-thread-a-tale-of-six-cities/#comment-84439</link>
		<dc:creator>joshuadf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 00:13:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9928#comment-84439</guid>
		<description>You can find out elevations at gmap-pedometer.com or mapmyride.com</description>
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You can find out elevations at gmap-pedometer.com or mapmyride.com<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: litlnemo</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/22/sunday-open-thread-a-tale-of-six-cities/#comment-84436</link>
		<dc:creator>litlnemo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 00:01:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9928#comment-84436</guid>
		<description>At least part of it is seriously that steep. (Anyone know &lt;em&gt;how&lt;/em&gt; steep?) It is certainly difficult in either direction in bad weather or if you are not in good health.

Now if they converted it somehow into a route that went, say, up McClellan, then south on Beacon for a bit, then west to West Seattle... that would be functional and useful. Not that we need more service on Beacon Ave., probably, but the east-west service to West Seattle would be great.</description>
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At least part of it is seriously that steep. (Anyone know <em>how</em> steep?) It is certainly difficult in either direction in bad weather or if you are not in good health.</p>
<p>Now if they converted it somehow into a route that went, say, up McClellan, then south on Beacon for a bit, then west to West Seattle&#8230; that would be functional and useful. Not that we need more service on Beacon Ave., probably, but the east-west service to West Seattle would be great.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Martin H. Duke</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/22/sunday-open-thread-a-tale-of-six-cities/#comment-84433</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin H. Duke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 23:49:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9928#comment-84433</guid>
		<description>The argument is that it&#039;s too steep for going down or up.</description>
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The argument is that it&#8217;s too steep for going down or up.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/22/sunday-open-thread-a-tale-of-six-cities/#comment-84429</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:58:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9928#comment-84429</guid>
		<description>I, too, heard that the hill steepness was a reason for the 38, but I guess I don&#039;t get it. It&#039;s too steep to walk up, down, or both? I figure the uphill could be dealt with by walking down to Mt. Baker station and then riding Link into the hill and the elevator to the top.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I, too, heard that the hill steepness was a reason for the 38, but I guess I don&#8217;t get it. It&#8217;s too steep to walk up, down, or both? I figure the uphill could be dealt with by walking down to Mt. Baker station and then riding Link into the hill and the elevator to the top.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/11/22/sunday-open-thread-a-tale-of-six-cities/#comment-84428</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:56:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=9928#comment-84428</guid>
		<description>Does anyone know how many monorail passes are sold each month? I know there are some people who commute by monorail in Seattle, I just have no idea who many... under 1,000? Under 100? Under 10? One?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Does anyone know how many monorail passes are sold each month? I know there are some people who commute by monorail in Seattle, I just have no idea who many&#8230; under 1,000? Under 100? Under 10? One?<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
]]></content:encoded>
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