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	<title>Comments on: Can HSR Really Compete with Air Travel?</title>
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	<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/24/can-hsr-really-compete-with-air-travel/</link>
	<description>Transit in the Greater Seattle Area</description>
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		<title>By: Paine Field - Seattle Transit Blog</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/24/can-hsr-really-compete-with-air-travel/#comment-94821</link>
		<dc:creator>Paine Field - Seattle Transit Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 20:28:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10997#comment-94821</guid>
		<description>[...] we really want to avoid the need for a new airport somewhere, the answer is high-speed rail. There really is no replacement for flights to Tokyo, but there&#8217;s no good reason for people [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
[...] we really want to avoid the need for a new airport somewhere, the answer is high-speed rail. There really is no replacement for flights to Tokyo, but there&#8217;s no good reason for people [...]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/24/can-hsr-really-compete-with-air-travel/#comment-93226</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 17:01:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10997#comment-93226</guid>
		<description>Supposedly some people use HSR in France to commute. The smaller cities 30-60 minutes via TGV from Paris are much cheaper than anything the same travel time via the Paris Metro, RER, or commuter lines.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Supposedly some people use HSR in France to commute. The smaller cities 30-60 minutes via TGV from Paris are much cheaper than anything the same travel time via the Paris Metro, RER, or commuter lines.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/24/can-hsr-really-compete-with-air-travel/#comment-93225</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 16:59:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10997#comment-93225</guid>
		<description>One possibility would be run a train between Eugene and Redding via the line through Roseburg, Medford, Grants Pass, and Ashland. The track would have to be upgraded to class 4 or 5 from the class 1 or 2 track it is currently. A short collapsed tunnel would have to be repaired as well. While true HSR speeds couldn&#039;t be obtained with Talgo gear speeds could be better than with say Superliner or Amfleet cars. If high-power locomotives (like the Talgo diesel units) were used the steep grades are less of a problem.

The big advantage of switching passenger service to the line in the I-5 corridor is the UP line through Klamath Falls tends to be rather congested with freight and really can&#039;t handle increased passenger frequencies. The line through Medford is rather lightly used so freight conflicts aren&#039;t really a problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
One possibility would be run a train between Eugene and Redding via the line through Roseburg, Medford, Grants Pass, and Ashland. The track would have to be upgraded to class 4 or 5 from the class 1 or 2 track it is currently. A short collapsed tunnel would have to be repaired as well. While true HSR speeds couldn&#8217;t be obtained with Talgo gear speeds could be better than with say Superliner or Amfleet cars. If high-power locomotives (like the Talgo diesel units) were used the steep grades are less of a problem.</p>
<p>The big advantage of switching passenger service to the line in the I-5 corridor is the UP line through Klamath Falls tends to be rather congested with freight and really can&#8217;t handle increased passenger frequencies. The line through Medford is rather lightly used so freight conflicts aren&#8217;t really a problem.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Anandakos</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/24/can-hsr-really-compete-with-air-travel/#comment-92983</link>
		<dc:creator>Anandakos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 09:00:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10997#comment-92983</guid>
		<description>Ryan,

The curves are an issue on the Shore Line north of New York.  The Pennsy &quot;Standard Railroad of the World&quot; south of NYC would be pretty much ready for 150+ with the catenary replacement.  It&#039;s already engineered with very broad curves.  

Except for the freight trains and the 90 mph Clockers and NJT Arrows.  

Until some way to get NS trains into Baltimore without running on the NEC south of Perryville is provided the route can&#039;t be upgraded to true HSR.  But 135 mph seems to be doing very well already.  It&#039;s really not that far between New York and Washington.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Ryan,</p>
<p>The curves are an issue on the Shore Line north of New York.  The Pennsy &#8220;Standard Railroad of the World&#8221; south of NYC would be pretty much ready for 150+ with the catenary replacement.  It&#8217;s already engineered with very broad curves.  </p>
<p>Except for the freight trains and the 90 mph Clockers and NJT Arrows.  </p>
<p>Until some way to get NS trains into Baltimore without running on the NEC south of Perryville is provided the route can&#8217;t be upgraded to true HSR.  But 135 mph seems to be doing very well already.  It&#8217;s really not that far between New York and Washington.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Oran Viriyincy</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/24/can-hsr-really-compete-with-air-travel/#comment-92797</link>
		<dc:creator>Oran Viriyincy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 18:47:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10997#comment-92797</guid>
		<description>One of the few things we have in common that should aid our trade and diplomatic relations! (once we form our own People&#039;s Republic of Cascadia) (LOL)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
One of the few things we have in common that should aid our trade and diplomatic relations! (once we form our own People&#8217;s Republic of Cascadia) (LOL)<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Anandakos</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/24/can-hsr-really-compete-with-air-travel/#comment-92793</link>
		<dc:creator>Anandakos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 18:39:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10997#comment-92793</guid>
		<description>Oran,

I didn&#039;t know that Frank was a member of the Central Committee in Beijing, too.  (&quot;just like in China!&quot;)  This is a great advantage for Washington in its quest for trade with the PRC!  

(Joke...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Oran,</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t know that Frank was a member of the Central Committee in Beijing, too.  (&#8220;just like in China!&#8221;)  This is a great advantage for Washington in its quest for trade with the PRC!  </p>
<p>(Joke&#8230;)<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Anandakos</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/24/can-hsr-really-compete-with-air-travel/#comment-92791</link>
		<dc:creator>Anandakos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 18:35:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10997#comment-92791</guid>
		<description>Word.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Word.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: David in Burien</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/24/can-hsr-really-compete-with-air-travel/#comment-92781</link>
		<dc:creator>David in Burien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 18:06:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10997#comment-92781</guid>
		<description>&quot;Meet George Jetson...!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
&#8220;Meet George Jetson&#8230;!&#8221;<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Gary</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/24/can-hsr-really-compete-with-air-travel/#comment-92778</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 18:02:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10997#comment-92778</guid>
		<description>You don&#039;t need to be on the train to blow it up. Watching any old WWII movie will show you lots of ways to put explosives on the track and then wait for to come by.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
You don&#8217;t need to be on the train to blow it up. Watching any old WWII movie will show you lots of ways to put explosives on the track and then wait for to come by.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/24/can-hsr-really-compete-with-air-travel/#comment-92735</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 13:12:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10997#comment-92735</guid>
		<description>Yes, the Cascades do security much like Eurostar, I think. International HSR in North America is probably going to converge to the same model elsewhere. Right now the way they do it on Amtrak&#039;s New York-Toronto and New York-Montreal routes is that the train stops at the border for an hour for customs and immigration.

But tellingly, such controls do not exist on the domestic train routes in either the US or Canada.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Yes, the Cascades do security much like Eurostar, I think. International HSR in North America is probably going to converge to the same model elsewhere. Right now the way they do it on Amtrak&#8217;s New York-Toronto and New York-Montreal routes is that the train stops at the border for an hour for customs and immigration.</p>
<p>But tellingly, such controls do not exist on the domestic train routes in either the US or Canada.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/24/can-hsr-really-compete-with-air-travel/#comment-92733</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 13:09:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10997#comment-92733</guid>
		<description>If I&#039;m not mistaken, relative to GDP the biggest HSR program in the world is in Spain. Spain is planning to build 10,000 km of HSR routes by 2020, just like China.

You don&#039;t need to be an authoritarian state to build things well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
If I&#8217;m not mistaken, relative to GDP the biggest HSR program in the world is in Spain. Spain is planning to build 10,000 km of HSR routes by 2020, just like China.</p>
<p>You don&#8217;t need to be an authoritarian state to build things well.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Oran Viriyincy</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/24/can-hsr-really-compete-with-air-travel/#comment-92612</link>
		<dc:creator>Oran Viriyincy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 04:14:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10997#comment-92612</guid>
		<description>We also have those massive hydro dams in Eastern Washington. I think we come close to a one-party state and Frank Chopp holds too much power, just like in China!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
We also have those massive hydro dams in Eastern Washington. I think we come close to a one-party state and Frank Chopp holds too much power, just like in China!<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Welch</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/24/can-hsr-really-compete-with-air-travel/#comment-92585</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 01:42:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10997#comment-92585</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Time for North America to emulate China’s High-Speed Rail&lt;/b&gt;

Yes, it&#039;s amazing what you can do in a Communist country when the government controls ALL of the money.   I hear they build a mean hydroelectric dam, too.

Emulate THAT?  No thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
<b>Time for North America to emulate China’s High-Speed Rail</b></p>
<p>Yes, it&#8217;s amazing what you can do in a Communist country when the government controls ALL of the money.   I hear they build a mean hydroelectric dam, too.</p>
<p>Emulate THAT?  No thanks.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Leo N. Egashira</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/24/can-hsr-really-compete-with-air-travel/#comment-92538</link>
		<dc:creator>Leo N. Egashira</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 20:38:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10997#comment-92538</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know whether the following Letter to the Editor will get printed in The Seattle Times, but one can hope so.

Editor, The Seattle Times:

Time for North America to emulate China’s High-Speed Rail

The story about China announcing the fastest rail line in the world (at over 217 mph) and plans to build and complete at least 42 more lines stretching over 8400 miles by 2012 stands in stark contrast to our nation’s misguided automobile-centric transportation policies, as well as the Treasury’s financial deficit situation that limits options.

A U.S. economic stimulus package for high-speed rail allocates $8 billion to “study” the issue.  While the I-5 corridor between Vancouver, B.C. and Eugene OR is one of ten potential high-speed rail corridors that will be studied, the first U.S. line will probably be built between San Diego and San Francisco, where California voters approved a $9.95 billion bond issue last fall. 

Meanwhile, China is slated to spend over $300 billion through 2020.  While I certainly have major issues with China’s poor records with worker safety, due process, political freedom, and environmental degradation, at least it is embarking on an ambitious program that promises millions of new jobs, a cleaner, greener future and society-wide benefits for the common citizen.

Our unwillingness to embrace, support and build public transportation infrastructure will increasingly put our nation in competitiveness disadvantage compared to other developed and developing economies.

Leo N. Egashira</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I don&#8217;t know whether the following Letter to the Editor will get printed in The Seattle Times, but one can hope so.</p>
<p>Editor, The Seattle Times:</p>
<p>Time for North America to emulate China’s High-Speed Rail</p>
<p>The story about China announcing the fastest rail line in the world (at over 217 mph) and plans to build and complete at least 42 more lines stretching over 8400 miles by 2012 stands in stark contrast to our nation’s misguided automobile-centric transportation policies, as well as the Treasury’s financial deficit situation that limits options.</p>
<p>A U.S. economic stimulus package for high-speed rail allocates $8 billion to “study” the issue.  While the I-5 corridor between Vancouver, B.C. and Eugene OR is one of ten potential high-speed rail corridors that will be studied, the first U.S. line will probably be built between San Diego and San Francisco, where California voters approved a $9.95 billion bond issue last fall. </p>
<p>Meanwhile, China is slated to spend over $300 billion through 2020.  While I certainly have major issues with China’s poor records with worker safety, due process, political freedom, and environmental degradation, at least it is embarking on an ambitious program that promises millions of new jobs, a cleaner, greener future and society-wide benefits for the common citizen.</p>
<p>Our unwillingness to embrace, support and build public transportation infrastructure will increasingly put our nation in competitiveness disadvantage compared to other developed and developing economies.</p>
<p>Leo N. Egashira<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Oran Viriyincy</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/24/can-hsr-really-compete-with-air-travel/#comment-92509</link>
		<dc:creator>Oran Viriyincy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 18:51:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10997#comment-92509</guid>
		<description>That reminded me of taking Amtrak Cascades from Vancouver, B.C. to Seattle. I arrived 30 minutes before departure and we went through the baggage x-ray, dog sniffing, and passport check really quick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
That reminded me of taking Amtrak Cascades from Vancouver, B.C. to Seattle. I arrived 30 minutes before departure and we went through the baggage x-ray, dog sniffing, and passport check really quick.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/24/can-hsr-really-compete-with-air-travel/#comment-92506</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 18:29:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10997#comment-92506</guid>
		<description>Austi&#039;s claim about trains winning up to 1,500 km is factually incorrect. In Japan, the breakeven point is at Tokyo-Hiroshima, a distance of 820 km. On the 1,070-km Tokyo-Fukuoka route, most people fly; trains only run the full route because of the intermediate city pairs it includes. Even allowing for the slightly lower speed of Japanese high-speed rail, there is no chance today&#039;s trains can beat planes at distances much higher than 1,000 km.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Austi&#8217;s claim about trains winning up to 1,500 km is factually incorrect. In Japan, the breakeven point is at Tokyo-Hiroshima, a distance of 820 km. On the 1,070-km Tokyo-Fukuoka route, most people fly; trains only run the full route because of the intermediate city pairs it includes. Even allowing for the slightly lower speed of Japanese high-speed rail, there is no chance today&#8217;s trains can beat planes at distances much higher than 1,000 km.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/24/can-hsr-really-compete-with-air-travel/#comment-92505</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 18:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10997#comment-92505</guid>
		<description>Pre-boarding security processes on existing high speed rail in every country are almost nonexistent. The only exception is Eurostar because of the Channel Tunnel, and even there the security check takes much less time than at airports; Eurostar requires you to arrive at the station 30 minutes before departure, compared with an hour or more for flying.

An explosion on a train doesn&#039;t kill everyone on board, unlike with aircraft - trains can be built to be able to derail without deaths. So terrorists and saboteurs typically target tracks, not trains.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Pre-boarding security processes on existing high speed rail in every country are almost nonexistent. The only exception is Eurostar because of the Channel Tunnel, and even there the security check takes much less time than at airports; Eurostar requires you to arrive at the station 30 minutes before departure, compared with an hour or more for flying.</p>
<p>An explosion on a train doesn&#8217;t kill everyone on board, unlike with aircraft &#8211; trains can be built to be able to derail without deaths. So terrorists and saboteurs typically target tracks, not trains.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Dan Carey</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/24/can-hsr-really-compete-with-air-travel/#comment-92454</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Carey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 07:50:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10997#comment-92454</guid>
		<description>Oregon has made smart use of buses because much of the state in not in a position to be served by rail.  You can read the Oregon 2001 Rail plan at: 

http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/RAIL/docs/Publications/railplan01.pdf

The document details each and every rail line in the state, and on page 98 discusses each potential route for intercity rail.  Most rail lines in Oregon are not very well suited for intercity rail without a lot of money.  So buses that link to rail stations make a lot of sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Oregon has made smart use of buses because much of the state in not in a position to be served by rail.  You can read the Oregon 2001 Rail plan at: </p>
<p><a href="http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/RAIL/docs/Publications/railplan01.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/RAIL/docs/Publications/railplan01.pdf</a></p>
<p>The document details each and every rail line in the state, and on page 98 discusses each potential route for intercity rail.  Most rail lines in Oregon are not very well suited for intercity rail without a lot of money.  So buses that link to rail stations make a lot of sense.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/24/can-hsr-really-compete-with-air-travel/#comment-92446</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 07:04:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10997#comment-92446</guid>
		<description>HSR that could realistically compete with air travel over 1500 km would be astronomically expensive, and will most likely not happen within any of our lifetimes.  I would be more inclined to believe that shorter distance HSR would be much more likely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
HSR that could realistically compete with air travel over 1500 km would be astronomically expensive, and will most likely not happen within any of our lifetimes.  I would be more inclined to believe that shorter distance HSR would be much more likely.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/12/24/can-hsr-really-compete-with-air-travel/#comment-92445</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 07:03:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10997#comment-92445</guid>
		<description>No, but you can blow them up.  That&#039;s still several hundred people you could kill at once.  Not all air travel security is just to prevent planes from flying into buildings, but also to prevent them from being blown up, as witnessed to by the event on the Delta flight the other day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
No, but you can blow them up.  That&#8217;s still several hundred people you could kill at once.  Not all air travel security is just to prevent planes from flying into buildings, but also to prevent them from being blown up, as witnessed to by the event on the Delta flight the other day.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
]]></content:encoded>
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