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	<title>Comments on: Sunday Open Thread: No Walking USA</title>
	<atom:link href="http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/03/sunday-open-thread-no-walking-usa/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/03/sunday-open-thread-no-walking-usa/</link>
	<description>Transit in the Greater Seattle Area</description>
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		<title>By: Mike Orr</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/03/sunday-open-thread-no-walking-usa/#comment-96280</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Orr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 01:29:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10553#comment-96280</guid>
		<description>When do the people exercise their legs?

Where&#039;s the traffic?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
When do the people exercise their legs?</p>
<p>Where&#8217;s the traffic?<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Andreas</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/03/sunday-open-thread-no-walking-usa/#comment-95546</link>
		<dc:creator>Andreas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 09:46:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10553#comment-95546</guid>
		<description>I wound up e-mailing the ORCA folks and suggesting some sort of notification, either by email or a notice on the website, to remind folks whenever a fare increase is approaching that their fare product isn&#039;t going to automatically adjust to the new fare structure. I also suggested that such an email or notification include a link to easily add 25 or 50&#162; to an existing autoload-enabled pass, rather than require the customer to cancel and then reorder. Doubtful anything will change, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I wound up e-mailing the ORCA folks and suggesting some sort of notification, either by email or a notice on the website, to remind folks whenever a fare increase is approaching that their fare product isn&#8217;t going to automatically adjust to the new fare structure. I also suggested that such an email or notification include a link to easily add 25 or 50&cent; to an existing autoload-enabled pass, rather than require the customer to cancel and then reorder. Doubtful anything will change, though.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Welch</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/03/sunday-open-thread-no-walking-usa/#comment-95243</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 12:24:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10553#comment-95243</guid>
		<description>Andreas,



In all fairness - I&#039;m not sure that Orca can/should bill any customer more than they originally agreed to.  I&#039;ve run into a lot of customers that have had this issue, and they now plop in their extra quarter, apparently having been told that they can&#039;t change their pass value until next month (which is annoying at the least).

I do think that customers deserve at least some of the responsibility for knowing fares were going up, and not checking to make sure they were purchasing a pass for the correct fare.

And yeah - the entire e-commerce functions on the Orca site are horrific.  I recently lost my wallet and was unable to cancel an autoload pending transaction (because I&#039;d cancelled my card) without calling customer service first - and was unable to change to a new card until I&#039;d done this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Andreas,</p>
<p>In all fairness &#8211; I&#8217;m not sure that Orca can/should bill any customer more than they originally agreed to.  I&#8217;ve run into a lot of customers that have had this issue, and they now plop in their extra quarter, apparently having been told that they can&#8217;t change their pass value until next month (which is annoying at the least).</p>
<p>I do think that customers deserve at least some of the responsibility for knowing fares were going up, and not checking to make sure they were purchasing a pass for the correct fare.</p>
<p>And yeah &#8211; the entire e-commerce functions on the Orca site are horrific.  I recently lost my wallet and was unable to cancel an autoload pending transaction (because I&#8217;d cancelled my card) without calling customer service first &#8211; and was unable to change to a new card until I&#8217;d done this.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: poncho</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/03/sunday-open-thread-no-walking-usa/#comment-95208</link>
		<dc:creator>poncho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 07:06:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10553#comment-95208</guid>
		<description>i believe the alternative vision that you speak of is this...
&lt;a href=&#039;http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=387920398997423607&amp;ei=RIdFS4yeBo2YqAPY8P3IDg&amp;q#&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Transit Vision&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
i believe the alternative vision that you speak of is this&#8230;<br />
<a href='http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=387920398997423607&amp;ei=RIdFS4yeBo2YqAPY8P3IDg&amp;q#' rel="nofollow">Transit Vision</a><!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Andreas</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/03/sunday-open-thread-no-walking-usa/#comment-95198</link>
		<dc:creator>Andreas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 06:02:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10553#comment-95198</guid>
		<description>Yet another fun ORCA quirk: Since we have a regional pass system but don&#039;t have standardized fares, the system doesn&#039;t know that you use your &quot;$2.00 PugetPass&quot; as a &quot;Metro adult one-zone peak pass&quot;. So when Metro raises its fares by 25&#162; and you have ORCA set up to autoload your pass, ORCA keeps you at the $2.00 level, and what should be a convenience turns into a hassle when you get an &quot;Owe $0.25&quot; message despite having an autoloaded pass.

And, of course, there is no simple &quot;Upgrade pass&quot; button on the ORCA website. You have to cancel the existing autoload, hunt around the ORCA website to find out how to buy a new pass, re-enter all your billing info, then setup autoload again. It constantly amazes me how horribly implemented this whole thing is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Yet another fun ORCA quirk: Since we have a regional pass system but don&#8217;t have standardized fares, the system doesn&#8217;t know that you use your &#8220;$2.00 PugetPass&#8221; as a &#8220;Metro adult one-zone peak pass&#8221;. So when Metro raises its fares by 25&cent; and you have ORCA set up to autoload your pass, ORCA keeps you at the $2.00 level, and what should be a convenience turns into a hassle when you get an &#8220;Owe $0.25&#8243; message despite having an autoloaded pass.</p>
<p>And, of course, there is no simple &#8220;Upgrade pass&#8221; button on the ORCA website. You have to cancel the existing autoload, hunt around the ORCA website to find out how to buy a new pass, re-enter all your billing info, then setup autoload again. It constantly amazes me how horribly implemented this whole thing is.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Spokker</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/03/sunday-open-thread-no-walking-usa/#comment-94760</link>
		<dc:creator>Spokker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 11:58:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10553#comment-94760</guid>
		<description>Of course, but what I&#039;m saying is that something must have happened at Disney because its founder put automobiles in the background when designing EPCOT, and opted for electric trains and walking as the primary modes of transportation. If we&#039;re going to talk about Magic Highways, it&#039;s only fair to talk about EPCOT.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkT2iLetCTc

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxC_a7qnGi8

Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBNfauF6IHc

Start with part 3. Would it have worked? Maybe, maybe not. But they were definitely thinking about the impacts of the automobile and how to mitigate them. At the end of part 2 they talk about how the pedestrian is king in downtown. That&#039;s pretty progressive for the 1960s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Of course, but what I&#8217;m saying is that something must have happened at Disney because its founder put automobiles in the background when designing EPCOT, and opted for electric trains and walking as the primary modes of transportation. If we&#8217;re going to talk about Magic Highways, it&#8217;s only fair to talk about EPCOT.</p>
<p>Part 1: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkT2iLetCTc" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkT2iLetCTc</a></p>
<p>Part 2: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxC_a7qnGi8" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxC_a7qnGi8</a></p>
<p>Part 3: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBNfauF6IHc" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBNfauF6IHc</a></p>
<p>Start with part 3. Would it have worked? Maybe, maybe not. But they were definitely thinking about the impacts of the automobile and how to mitigate them. At the end of part 2 they talk about how the pedestrian is king in downtown. That&#8217;s pretty progressive for the 1960s.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Tim Whittome</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/03/sunday-open-thread-no-walking-usa/#comment-94725</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Whittome</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 06:17:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10553#comment-94725</guid>
		<description>I saw this at the Snoqualmie Railroad Museum giftshop if anyone is interested.  I hadn&#039;t heard of this disaster either but it sounds horrible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I saw this at the Snoqualmie Railroad Museum giftshop if anyone is interested.  I hadn&#8217;t heard of this disaster either but it sounds horrible.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/03/sunday-open-thread-no-walking-usa/#comment-94711</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 04:25:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10553#comment-94711</guid>
		<description>Thanks Mike - I&#039;ll check it out at lunchtime tomorrow. I&#039;ve never used a TVM, so I didn&#039;t even know that was a feature.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Thanks Mike &#8211; I&#8217;ll check it out at lunchtime tomorrow. I&#8217;ve never used a TVM, so I didn&#8217;t even know that was a feature.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Erik G.</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/03/sunday-open-thread-no-walking-usa/#comment-94706</link>
		<dc:creator>Erik G.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 04:14:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10553#comment-94706</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t Godwin a thread??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I can&#8217;t Godwin a thread??<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Anc</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/03/sunday-open-thread-no-walking-usa/#comment-94680</link>
		<dc:creator>Anc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 02:21:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10553#comment-94680</guid>
		<description>I hope Sam&#039;s comment is made in jest, especially considering further upthread his link to:
http://tech.msn.com/products/slideshow.aspx?cp-documentid=19445651&amp;imageindex=5</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I hope Sam&#8217;s comment is made in jest, especially considering further upthread his link to:<br />
<a href="http://tech.msn.com/products/slideshow.aspx?cp-documentid=19445651&#038;imageindex=5" rel="nofollow">http://tech.msn.com/products/slideshow.aspx?cp-documentid=19445651&#038;imageindex=5</a><!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: litlnemo</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/03/sunday-open-thread-no-walking-usa/#comment-94641</link>
		<dc:creator>litlnemo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 00:25:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10553#comment-94641</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s also a book specifically about the Wellington disaster, called &quot;The White Cascade.&quot; I haven&#039;t read it yet, but plan to soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
There&#8217;s also a book specifically about the Wellington disaster, called &#8220;The White Cascade.&#8221; I haven&#8217;t read it yet, but plan to soon.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Tony the Economist</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/03/sunday-open-thread-no-walking-usa/#comment-94577</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony the Economist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 20:40:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10553#comment-94577</guid>
		<description>Obsolescence? Have you had any conversations with highway engineers recently? Have you been following the deep bore tunnel debate? There is nothing obsolete about this way of thinking. Auto-boosters still believe the automated highway, moving sidewalk, and hydrogen powered car are just around the corner.

In fact, the persistent belief in the vision described in this video that is used as a central argument by the anti-transit crowd. We don&#039;t need to build light rail to solve global warming because the electric car will solve all those problems. We don&#039;t need light rail to solve congestion because the automated highway will increase capacity. Density = crowded and unpleasant, sprawl = spacious and comfortable, walking bad, cars good. There is no doubt that these ideas are dead, but they still hold our planning and public spending hostage and prevent the emergence of a new paradigm. For all the criticism I have of this blog, and I have no shortage of it, on balance it provides an invaluable service in refuting the dead ideas displayed in this video (that still persist today).

The video is powerful because it is visionary. Whatever criticism you can level at it, the video paints a compelling picture of what the world will be like. It is that image that still holds sway over the auto-boosters and is the bane of transit advocates everywhere. The only way to fight vision is with vision. Transit advocates need to create an alternative vision, not focus on criticism of this vision or the status quo, but a compelling, bold vision of how the world could be if it were build around transit oriented principles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Obsolescence? Have you had any conversations with highway engineers recently? Have you been following the deep bore tunnel debate? There is nothing obsolete about this way of thinking. Auto-boosters still believe the automated highway, moving sidewalk, and hydrogen powered car are just around the corner.</p>
<p>In fact, the persistent belief in the vision described in this video that is used as a central argument by the anti-transit crowd. We don&#8217;t need to build light rail to solve global warming because the electric car will solve all those problems. We don&#8217;t need light rail to solve congestion because the automated highway will increase capacity. Density = crowded and unpleasant, sprawl = spacious and comfortable, walking bad, cars good. There is no doubt that these ideas are dead, but they still hold our planning and public spending hostage and prevent the emergence of a new paradigm. For all the criticism I have of this blog, and I have no shortage of it, on balance it provides an invaluable service in refuting the dead ideas displayed in this video (that still persist today).</p>
<p>The video is powerful because it is visionary. Whatever criticism you can level at it, the video paints a compelling picture of what the world will be like. It is that image that still holds sway over the auto-boosters and is the bane of transit advocates everywhere. The only way to fight vision is with vision. Transit advocates need to create an alternative vision, not focus on criticism of this vision or the status quo, but a compelling, bold vision of how the world could be if it were build around transit oriented principles.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: josh</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/03/sunday-open-thread-no-walking-usa/#comment-94572</link>
		<dc:creator>josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 19:49:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10553#comment-94572</guid>
		<description>On Sounder, it doesn&#039;t seem to cause a problem.  I have only a $3.75 pass on my ORCA, and since there&#039;s no ORCA reader anywhere near the north entrances to Kent&#039;s or Auburn&#039;s Sounder stations, I rarely tag out when leaving.  (If they really cared, they&#039;d have put in readers....)

I&#039;ve tagged in at King Street and not tagged out at Kent or Auburn dozens of times a month since summer, and never had any balance show up on my card.  

No idea if Link will work the same or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
On Sounder, it doesn&#8217;t seem to cause a problem.  I have only a $3.75 pass on my ORCA, and since there&#8217;s no ORCA reader anywhere near the north entrances to Kent&#8217;s or Auburn&#8217;s Sounder stations, I rarely tag out when leaving.  (If they really cared, they&#8217;d have put in readers&#8230;.)</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve tagged in at King Street and not tagged out at Kent or Auburn dozens of times a month since summer, and never had any balance show up on my card.  </p>
<p>No idea if Link will work the same or not.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Mike Orr</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/03/sunday-open-thread-no-walking-usa/#comment-94561</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Orr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 19:19:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10553#comment-94561</guid>
		<description>The TVM will show you your balance if you press the &quot;ORCA details&quot; button. So does it say $0.00 or $-1.50?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
The TVM will show you your balance if you press the &#8220;ORCA details&#8221; button. So does it say $0.00 or $-1.50?<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Mike Orr</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/03/sunday-open-thread-no-walking-usa/#comment-94557</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Orr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 19:14:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10553#comment-94557</guid>
		<description>You can call customer service and ask for a refund of the difference. I don&#039;t know if they&#039;ll do it in this case, but they did do it when I was overcharged on the 522. (The reader said 1 zone but I was charged 2 zone anyway, even though the driver confirmed the fare was $1.50.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
You can call customer service and ask for a refund of the difference. I don&#8217;t know if they&#8217;ll do it in this case, but they did do it when I was overcharged on the 522. (The reader said 1 zone but I was charged 2 zone anyway, even though the driver confirmed the fare was $1.50.)<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Welch</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/03/sunday-open-thread-no-walking-usa/#comment-94547</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 18:31:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10553#comment-94547</guid>
		<description>Comparison between me and Sam ignored.  Most welcome. . .always.
-J</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Comparison between me and Sam ignored.  Most welcome. . .always.<br />
-J<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Mad Park</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/03/sunday-open-thread-no-walking-usa/#comment-94546</link>
		<dc:creator>Mad Park</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 18:29:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10553#comment-94546</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll always read Jeff Welch&#039;s posts, and seldom bother with Sam&#039;s.  I&#039;ve been using transit in Seattle for more than a half a century and have always relied on transit operators for lots of good information.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I&#8217;ll always read Jeff Welch&#8217;s posts, and seldom bother with Sam&#8217;s.  I&#8217;ve been using transit in Seattle for more than a half a century and have always relied on transit operators for lots of good information.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Welch</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/03/sunday-open-thread-no-walking-usa/#comment-94538</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 17:56:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10553#comment-94538</guid>
		<description>Godwin&#039;s Law invoked.  You lose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Godwin&#8217;s Law invoked.  You lose.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Erik G.</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/03/sunday-open-thread-no-walking-usa/#comment-94528</link>
		<dc:creator>Erik G.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 16:49:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10553#comment-94528</guid>
		<description>And less than twenty years prior to that, Walter Elias was hosting prominent German propagandists (Leni Riefenstahl) and thought Mr. Hitler was doing the right thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
And less than twenty years prior to that, Walter Elias was hosting prominent German propagandists (Leni Riefenstahl) and thought Mr. Hitler was doing the right thing.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: octopus</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/03/sunday-open-thread-no-walking-usa/#comment-94521</link>
		<dc:creator>octopus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 16:14:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=10553#comment-94521</guid>
		<description>There is a great book called &quot;The White Death&quot; by McKay Jenkins.  It deals with avalanche science, the Wellington disaster and other related incidents.</description>
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There is a great book called &#8220;The White Death&#8221; by McKay Jenkins.  It deals with avalanche science, the Wellington disaster and other related incidents.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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