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	<title>Comments on: City goes after private park-and-rides</title>
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	<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/07/city-goes-after-private-park-and-rides/</link>
	<description>Transit in the Greater Seattle Area</description>
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		<title>By: Chuck Wolfe Weighs In On &#8216;Nodes&#8217; And &#8216;Places&#8217; - Seattle Transit Blog</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/07/city-goes-after-private-park-and-rides/#comment-98942</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck Wolfe Weighs In On &#8216;Nodes&#8217; And &#8216;Places&#8217; - Seattle Transit Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 15:57:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11287#comment-98942</guid>
		<description>[...] urban environment.  Last week, we had a few big stories about the City of Seattle&#8217;s initial cease-and-desist order of a private parking lot in the Rainier Valley and then McGinn&#8217;s subsequent moratorium [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
[...] urban environment.  Last week, we had a few big stories about the City of Seattle&#8217;s initial cease-and-desist order of a private parking lot in the Rainier Valley and then McGinn&#8217;s subsequent moratorium [...]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: HAC on Park-and-Rides - Seattle Transit Blog</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/07/city-goes-after-private-park-and-rides/#comment-97100</link>
		<dc:creator>HAC on Park-and-Rides - Seattle Transit Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:06:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11287#comment-97100</guid>
		<description>[...] Nikolic at hugeasscity has a thoughtful piece about park-and-rides that disagrees with my, uh, extremely calm and measured support* of private lots for the time being.  Erica Barnett piled on a bit.  Goldy, the 37th District [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
[...] Nikolic at hugeasscity has a thoughtful piece about park-and-rides that disagrees with my, uh, extremely calm and measured support* of private lots for the time being.  Erica Barnett piled on a bit.  Goldy, the 37th District [...]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/07/city-goes-after-private-park-and-rides/#comment-96905</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 01:40:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11287#comment-96905</guid>
		<description>Bernie-
I wrote to Metro.  No reply.  I wrote to my King County rep.  I got a curt reply that said they&#039;d looked into extending the route, but it would cost too much money.

Even if that bus were extended, it only runs every 1/2 hour, and it can be unreliable. So I don&#039;t use it.  

I just gave up my U-Pass because it was too expensive and my salary has decreased in real terms and I had to cut my budget.

So I stay in my car. I&#039;m exactly the kind of white, upper-class, guppie that you are trying to get out of his car. Is that the system working perfectly?


Your ceteris paribus arguments just aren&#039;t convincing. You&#039;re making crucial factors exogenous to your model.  I&#039;m arguing they&#039;re not.</description>
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Bernie-<br />
I wrote to Metro.  No reply.  I wrote to my King County rep.  I got a curt reply that said they&#8217;d looked into extending the route, but it would cost too much money.</p>
<p>Even if that bus were extended, it only runs every 1/2 hour, and it can be unreliable. So I don&#8217;t use it.  </p>
<p>I just gave up my U-Pass because it was too expensive and my salary has decreased in real terms and I had to cut my budget.</p>
<p>So I stay in my car. I&#8217;m exactly the kind of white, upper-class, guppie that you are trying to get out of his car. Is that the system working perfectly?</p>
<p>Your ceteris paribus arguments just aren&#8217;t convincing. You&#8217;re making crucial factors exogenous to your model.  I&#8217;m arguing they&#8217;re not.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/07/city-goes-after-private-park-and-rides/#comment-96903</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 01:30:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11287#comment-96903</guid>
		<description>Yes- the 27. 
But it only runs every 1/2 hour anyhow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Yes- the 27.<br />
But it only runs every 1/2 hour anyhow.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Parking Policy Pickle &#124; hugeasscity</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/07/city-goes-after-private-park-and-rides/#comment-96757</link>
		<dc:creator>Parking Policy Pickle &#124; hugeasscity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 18:25:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11287#comment-96757</guid>
		<description>[...] policy around light rail stations has long been contentious, and this past week the controversy  heated  up when several SE Seattle businesses were ordered to stop selling spots to commuters in their [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
[...] policy around light rail stations has long been contentious, and this past week the controversy  heated  up when several SE Seattle businesses were ordered to stop selling spots to commuters in their [...]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: City Suspends Policy Against Private Park-and-Rides - Seattle Transit Blog</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/07/city-goes-after-private-park-and-rides/#comment-96739</link>
		<dc:creator>City Suspends Policy Against Private Park-and-Rides - Seattle Transit Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 17:02:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11287#comment-96739</guid>
		<description>[...] news last week that the city was sending cease-and-desist letters to private parking lots offering park-and-ride services along the light rail line, we and others editorialized harshly [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
[...] news last week that the city was sending cease-and-desist letters to private parking lots offering park-and-ride services along the light rail line, we and others editorialized harshly [...]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: johnmocha</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/07/city-goes-after-private-park-and-rides/#comment-96604</link>
		<dc:creator>johnmocha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 02:29:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11287#comment-96604</guid>
		<description>Looks like McGinn is taking the reasonable route on this one.  Unexpected and welcome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Looks like McGinn is taking the reasonable route on this one.  Unexpected and welcome.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/07/city-goes-after-private-park-and-rides/#comment-96538</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 22:02:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11287#comment-96538</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;It wouldn’t even pay the taxes on the lot (not that the UW pays taxes)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Actually when a private party is allowed to use public property for private use there is something called the &quot;leasehold excise tax&quot; which replaces the property tax. Now determining what that tax should be is a rather arcane and specialized area of state law and tax policy.</description>
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<blockquote><p>It wouldn’t even pay the taxes on the lot (not that the UW pays taxes)</p></blockquote>
<p>Actually when a private party is allowed to use public property for private use there is something called the &#8220;leasehold excise tax&#8221; which replaces the property tax. Now determining what that tax should be is a rather arcane and specialized area of state law and tax policy.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Mich</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/07/city-goes-after-private-park-and-rides/#comment-96532</link>
		<dc:creator>Mich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 21:39:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11287#comment-96532</guid>
		<description>Exactly what I thought!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Exactly what I thought!<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Jake</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/07/city-goes-after-private-park-and-rides/#comment-96504</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 19:55:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11287#comment-96504</guid>
		<description>Jeff, 
Your idea also creates zero incentive to get on the light rail at any stop.  It&#039;s cost equivalent to just park downtown. The perfect is the enemy of the good.
Jake</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Jeff,<br />
Your idea also creates zero incentive to get on the light rail at any stop.  It&#8217;s cost equivalent to just park downtown. The perfect is the enemy of the good.<br />
Jake<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: nador</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/07/city-goes-after-private-park-and-rides/#comment-96498</link>
		<dc:creator>nador</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 19:00:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11287#comment-96498</guid>
		<description>Jeff, that makes perfect sense.  There would be zero incentive then for someone to get out of their car south of the city to ride transit since the cost won&#039;t be a motivating factor.  Folks are willing to give up a portion of the car commute for fiscal reward.  They aren&#039;t going to get on your bus to make the trip to a link station - mostly because there aren&#039;t enough buses serving the outlying neighborhoods with frequency and/or schedule reliability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Jeff, that makes perfect sense.  There would be zero incentive then for someone to get out of their car south of the city to ride transit since the cost won&#8217;t be a motivating factor.  Folks are willing to give up a portion of the car commute for fiscal reward.  They aren&#8217;t going to get on your bus to make the trip to a link station &#8211; mostly because there aren&#8217;t enough buses serving the outlying neighborhoods with frequency and/or schedule reliability.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Welch</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/07/city-goes-after-private-park-and-rides/#comment-96486</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:07:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11287#comment-96486</guid>
		<description>[ot]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
[ot]<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Welch</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/07/city-goes-after-private-park-and-rides/#comment-96484</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:04:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11287#comment-96484</guid>
		<description>How about this for a solution.  I&#039;m guessing that the main reason that anyone would use the Rainier Avenue/Othello etc. faux &quot;park and rides&quot; is to avoid the cost of parking downtown.

Have the city allow parking at these outer lots, but only if they charge a rate consistent with the average rate in the downtown core?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
How about this for a solution.  I&#8217;m guessing that the main reason that anyone would use the Rainier Avenue/Othello etc. faux &#8220;park and rides&#8221; is to avoid the cost of parking downtown.</p>
<p>Have the city allow parking at these outer lots, but only if they charge a rate consistent with the average rate in the downtown core?<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Brent</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/07/city-goes-after-private-park-and-rides/#comment-96482</link>
		<dc:creator>Brent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:29:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11287#comment-96482</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t see anyone calling for allowing construction of new parking around stations on this blog.  I see people calling for allowing already-existing parking to continue to be used as such for the time being.

Giving parking lot owners some warning about changes in land use policy and enforcement, and giving them time and an expedited permitting process for building replacement non-parking structures, would be the civilized thing to do.

The Nickles administration was notorious for dragging out the permitting process for small businesses.  My favorite Thai restaurant in Lake City moved across the street, was ready to open for business, and was held up by city bureaucracy for over a year!  Eventually, that family Thai restaurant went out of business, despite a large neighborhood following.

When it comes to stupidity like this, I hope the McGinn administration really is the new sheriff in town.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I don&#8217;t see anyone calling for allowing construction of new parking around stations on this blog.  I see people calling for allowing already-existing parking to continue to be used as such for the time being.</p>
<p>Giving parking lot owners some warning about changes in land use policy and enforcement, and giving them time and an expedited permitting process for building replacement non-parking structures, would be the civilized thing to do.</p>
<p>The Nickles administration was notorious for dragging out the permitting process for small businesses.  My favorite Thai restaurant in Lake City moved across the street, was ready to open for business, and was held up by city bureaucracy for over a year!  Eventually, that family Thai restaurant went out of business, despite a large neighborhood following.</p>
<p>When it comes to stupidity like this, I hope the McGinn administration really is the new sheriff in town.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Brent</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/07/city-goes-after-private-park-and-rides/#comment-96478</link>
		<dc:creator>Brent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:20:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11287#comment-96478</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m also for &quot;one-for-one replacement&quot; of affordable units.  We get called &quot;elitists&quot; by some overzealous housing advocates for not dropping what we&#039;re doing to work on their favorite issue.

I voted for Rev. David Bloom against Sally Bagshaw, in spite of his whacko anti-transit views.  He had somehow started to believe his own rhetoric about transit activists being &quot;elitist&quot; and in bed with developers.

While the anti-densification views of people like Bloom are laughably unsupportable, we can still make common cause here by making one-for-one (or even two-for-one) replacement of affordable housing units a piece of density legislation, and give current owners and tenants around stations some sort of security that they will continue to have a place to live.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I&#8217;m also for &#8220;one-for-one replacement&#8221; of affordable units.  We get called &#8220;elitists&#8221; by some overzealous housing advocates for not dropping what we&#8217;re doing to work on their favorite issue.</p>
<p>I voted for Rev. David Bloom against Sally Bagshaw, in spite of his whacko anti-transit views.  He had somehow started to believe his own rhetoric about transit activists being &#8220;elitist&#8221; and in bed with developers.</p>
<p>While the anti-densification views of people like Bloom are laughably unsupportable, we can still make common cause here by making one-for-one (or even two-for-one) replacement of affordable housing units a piece of density legislation, and give current owners and tenants around stations some sort of security that they will continue to have a place to live.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: nador</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/07/city-goes-after-private-park-and-rides/#comment-96477</link>
		<dc:creator>nador</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:19:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11287#comment-96477</guid>
		<description>a couple things.  The Grocery Outlet building and the parking lot (a separate parcel) are both owned by the Univ of Wash.  Additionally, the amount of income generated by any of these lots is/would be, small.  For instance, the Grocery Outlet lot might have 100 spaces?  Assuming that all 100 are monthly renters @ $30/month, well, that is peanuts.  It wouldn&#039;t even pay the taxes on the lot (not that the UW pays taxes) nor upkeep/security etc.

A simple solution is to allow only currently existing lots/spaces operate as pay lots and as one previous commenter said, put a sunset date on the permit and review before renewal.  

McGinn should be all over this - whatever it takes to get more people on the train.  The number of riders is shrinking and this would boost the ridership.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
a couple things.  The Grocery Outlet building and the parking lot (a separate parcel) are both owned by the Univ of Wash.  Additionally, the amount of income generated by any of these lots is/would be, small.  For instance, the Grocery Outlet lot might have 100 spaces?  Assuming that all 100 are monthly renters @ $30/month, well, that is peanuts.  It wouldn&#8217;t even pay the taxes on the lot (not that the UW pays taxes) nor upkeep/security etc.</p>
<p>A simple solution is to allow only currently existing lots/spaces operate as pay lots and as one previous commenter said, put a sunset date on the permit and review before renewal.  </p>
<p>McGinn should be all over this &#8211; whatever it takes to get more people on the train.  The number of riders is shrinking and this would boost the ridership.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Brent</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/07/city-goes-after-private-park-and-rides/#comment-96476</link>
		<dc:creator>Brent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:09:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11287#comment-96476</guid>
		<description>Why would driving alone be any worse than being dropped off at a &quot;kiss &amp; ride&quot;?  Driving alone has half the carbon footprint of being picked up and dropped off.

Besides, there are plenty of transit passengers who live alone, and a good chunk of them are not able-bodied to walk or bike to the station, and don&#039;t have a decent bus line available when they need it.

We&#039;re hearing a healthy dose of stories from people who would ride if they could.  This is a wonderful problem to have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Why would driving alone be any worse than being dropped off at a &#8220;kiss &amp; ride&#8221;?  Driving alone has half the carbon footprint of being picked up and dropped off.</p>
<p>Besides, there are plenty of transit passengers who live alone, and a good chunk of them are not able-bodied to walk or bike to the station, and don&#8217;t have a decent bus line available when they need it.</p>
<p>We&#8217;re hearing a healthy dose of stories from people who would ride if they could.  This is a wonderful problem to have.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: johnmocha</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/07/city-goes-after-private-park-and-rides/#comment-96363</link>
		<dc:creator>johnmocha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 04:14:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11287#comment-96363</guid>
		<description>&quot;Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect 
liberty when the Government&#039;s purposes are beneficent. Men born 
to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty 
by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in 
insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without 
understanding.&quot;
Justice Louis D. Brandeis
US Supreme Court Justice 1928</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
&#8220;Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect<br />
liberty when the Government&#8217;s purposes are beneficent. Men born<br />
to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty<br />
by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in<br />
insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without<br />
understanding.&#8221;<br />
Justice Louis D. Brandeis<br />
US Supreme Court Justice 1928<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Mark Dublin</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/07/city-goes-after-private-park-and-rides/#comment-96318</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Dublin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 02:32:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11287#comment-96318</guid>
		<description>In city neighborhoods, of course I&#039;d rather see people use transit to get to transit. Would also rather see vacant land used for parks than parking-lots. City has plenty of authority to make clear that today&#039;s parking will become tomorrow&#039;s park- as soon as that&#039;s seriously ready to happen.

Right now, current wasteland along MLK is positively bad for both desirable development and LINK. Think of it as introductory marketing- people parking there now will develop the twin habits of riding light rail and going to Seattle, including the Valley. Habits that will also bring them onto transit as soon as we&#039;ve got transit they can use.  

As befits a new industry fighting for its life, transit hasn&#039;t got the luxury of annoying either potential passengers or local small businesspeople without a powerful and immediate reason. Dory Monson&#039;s already got enough material.

Mark Dublin</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
In city neighborhoods, of course I&#8217;d rather see people use transit to get to transit. Would also rather see vacant land used for parks than parking-lots. City has plenty of authority to make clear that today&#8217;s parking will become tomorrow&#8217;s park- as soon as that&#8217;s seriously ready to happen.</p>
<p>Right now, current wasteland along MLK is positively bad for both desirable development and LINK. Think of it as introductory marketing- people parking there now will develop the twin habits of riding light rail and going to Seattle, including the Valley. Habits that will also bring them onto transit as soon as we&#8217;ve got transit they can use.  </p>
<p>As befits a new industry fighting for its life, transit hasn&#8217;t got the luxury of annoying either potential passengers or local small businesspeople without a powerful and immediate reason. Dory Monson&#8217;s already got enough material.</p>
<p>Mark Dublin<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: VeloBusDriver</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/07/city-goes-after-private-park-and-rides/#comment-96144</link>
		<dc:creator>VeloBusDriver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jan 2010 19:36:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11287#comment-96144</guid>
		<description>Danny Westneat wrote about this issue &lt;a href=&quot;http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/dannywestneat/2010753980_danny10.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;today&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Danny Westneat wrote about this issue <a href="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/dannywestneat/2010753980_danny10.html" rel="nofollow">today</a>.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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