Comments on: Pacific Northwest to get $598 Million in HSR Funds http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/28/pacific-northwest-to-get-598-million-in-hsr-funds/ Transit in the Greater Seattle Area Mon, 13 Feb 2012 09:21:24 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Matt the Engineer http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/28/pacific-northwest-to-get-598-million-in-hsr-funds/#comment-102140 Matt the Engineer Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:01:32 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11904#comment-102140 I'll concede a most of your points. Let's say 20 min early to catch the train (though they never leave early and there's no security, so even that's a large buffer). And yes, I'm cheating with the destinations both being at the train station (but I'm not sure where a fair starting point is - let's say a 5 minute taxi ride on either end?). So adding those two buffers, the train is currently 20 minutes slower and will soon be only 10 minutes slower. But that's certainly close enough not to worry about. And earlier you claim that the train would need to be an entire hour and 20 minutes faster to be competitive - you must be either exaggerating or I'm missing something. Regarding missing a plane being less painful, I completely agree. The main reason my wife flies down to Portland is that she can just show up and hop on the next plane. Frequency is a big selling point, and we need more trains to make rail competitive.
I’ll concede a most of your points. Let’s say 20 min early to catch the train (though they never leave early and there’s no security, so even that’s a large buffer). And yes, I’m cheating with the destinations both being at the train station (but I’m not sure where a fair starting point is – let’s say a 5 minute taxi ride on either end?).

So adding those two buffers, the train is currently 20 minutes slower and will soon be only 10 minutes slower. But that’s certainly close enough not to worry about. And earlier you claim that the train would need to be an entire hour and 20 minutes faster to be competitive – you must be either exaggerating or I’m missing something.

Regarding missing a plane being less painful, I completely agree. The main reason my wife flies down to Portland is that she can just show up and hop on the next plane. Frequency is a big selling point, and we need more trains to make rail competitive.

]]> By: Lloyd http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/28/pacific-northwest-to-get-598-million-in-hsr-funds/#comment-102027 Lloyd Mon, 01 Feb 2010 05:05:19 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11904#comment-102027 But the AVERAGE speed between Chicago and St Paul was never much more than 60 MPH, still far, far better than todays Amtrak 7 and 8 (50 MPH), which DO make more stops than the Morning or Afternoon Hiawathas made. Most of the reading I've done indicates these short bursts of high speed were either publicity stunts by the PR department of the railway, or hot-shot engineers showing off. Brian could tell us for sure, but it is unlikely that even a "technologically advanced" steam locomotive of the 1930s could run at sustained high speeds (90 MPH+) for hours at a time.
But the AVERAGE speed between Chicago and St Paul was never much more than 60 MPH, still far, far better than todays Amtrak 7 and 8 (50 MPH), which DO make more stops than the Morning or Afternoon Hiawathas made. Most of the reading I’ve done indicates these short bursts of high speed were either publicity stunts by the PR department of the railway, or hot-shot engineers showing off. Brian could tell us for sure, but it is unlikely that even a “technologically advanced” steam locomotive of the 1930s could run at sustained high speeds (90 MPH+) for hours at a time.

]]> By: Martin H. Duke http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/28/pacific-northwest-to-get-598-million-in-hsr-funds/#comment-101724 Martin H. Duke Sun, 31 Jan 2010 03:37:18 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11904#comment-101724 Anc, There already are Pierce Transit buses throughout Fort Lewis. The service isn't great but it's there. I'm not sure how the ID thing works.
Anc,

There already are Pierce Transit buses throughout Fort Lewis. The service isn’t great but it’s there.

I’m not sure how the ID thing works.

]]> By: Anc http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/28/pacific-northwest-to-get-598-million-in-hsr-funds/#comment-101516 Anc Sat, 30 Jan 2010 07:03:43 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11904#comment-101516 I don't know how you could pull of the ID check thing, but you are right. I could really see demand for buses to Madigan Army Medical Center, the Commissary and PX, and Waller Hall (tons of retirees there, all the time. I think mostly for car tabs, but maybe other services).
I don’t know how you could pull of the ID check thing, but you are right. I could really see demand for buses to Madigan Army Medical Center, the Commissary and PX, and Waller Hall (tons of retirees there, all the time. I think mostly for car tabs, but maybe other services).

]]> By: Bernie http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/28/pacific-northwest-to-get-598-million-in-hsr-funds/#comment-101504 Bernie Sat, 30 Jan 2010 06:28:39 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11904#comment-101504 The cross base highway restores the connection that used to go past Woodbrook (Brookwood) around the end of the runway at McChord. The problem with the old route is that it ran through Air Force housing and after 9/11 the gate was moved to include the housing. Even without 9/11 there were crime issues that warranted that move. And of course having open access right at the end of the runway was just plain dumb. Still, I think it's a better use of money to push the "improvements" (i.e. traffic) back over to 512 and 7. The area 704 would push through has been used for decades for horseback riding by people boarding horses at the stables in Woodbrook, McChord and Spannaway. Carving it up, at great expense is a great loss.
The cross base highway restores the connection that used to go past Woodbrook (Brookwood) around the end of the runway at McChord. The problem with the old route is that it ran through Air Force housing and after 9/11 the gate was moved to include the housing. Even without 9/11 there were crime issues that warranted that move. And of course having open access right at the end of the runway was just plain dumb. Still, I think it’s a better use of money to push the “improvements” (i.e. traffic) back over to 512 and 7. The area 704 would push through has been used for decades for horseback riding by people boarding horses at the stables in Woodbrook, McChord and Spannaway. Carving it up, at great expense is a great loss.

]]> By: Bernie http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/28/pacific-northwest-to-get-598-million-in-hsr-funds/#comment-101501 Bernie Sat, 30 Jan 2010 06:17:51 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11904#comment-101501 Train service wouldn't be so much for military. It would be for spouses that have jobs in Tacoma, Auburn, Kent, Seattle, etc. And for dependents that say are going to TCC, UPS and UW (and every other school I've left out, sorry). Of course it would probably help out a lot of National Guard members doing weekend duty. I doubt the ridership from Dupont is going to fill the train. I'd be surprised if it warranted an additional car. I suspect the number of people getting off in Tacoma would be substantial and despite not paying the ST tax the added ticket revenue might end up being a plus. Since Dupont isn't in the taxing district it would be fair and easy to implement an additional "zone" fee to boarding there. Of course most people in Dupont do a lot, if not most shopping in Lakewood and Tacoma where they do pay the tax. Except of course active and retired military that shop on Post/Base. But then I've never had a problem with supporting veterans benefits.
Train service wouldn’t be so much for military. It would be for spouses that have jobs in Tacoma, Auburn, Kent, Seattle, etc. And for dependents that say are going to TCC, UPS and UW (and every other school I’ve left out, sorry). Of course it would probably help out a lot of National Guard members doing weekend duty.

I doubt the ridership from Dupont is going to fill the train. I’d be surprised if it warranted an additional car. I suspect the number of people getting off in Tacoma would be substantial and despite not paying the ST tax the added ticket revenue might end up being a plus. Since Dupont isn’t in the taxing district it would be fair and easy to implement an additional “zone” fee to boarding there. Of course most people in Dupont do a lot, if not most shopping in Lakewood and Tacoma where they do pay the tax. Except of course active and retired military that shop on Post/Base. But then I’ve never had a problem with supporting veterans benefits.

]]> By: Bernie http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/28/pacific-northwest-to-get-598-million-in-hsr-funds/#comment-101497 Bernie Sat, 30 Jan 2010 06:04:13 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11904#comment-101497 Part of the equation is air drag. Planes, once at altitude are very efficient. The SR-71 was more efficient the higher and faster it flew (still, never an economy flight but WAY faster than trains ;-). Trains have to push through the same density of air over the whole route. Long distance trains also have to put up with elevation gain. True, an overhead electric line can put power back into the grid when descending but it's far from a 100% return. I'm not sure how the trade-of between rolling friction and lift equate. My hunch is the advantage goes to the plane. Another thing to keep in mind is that HSR as implemented in Europe and Japan is not a "cheap ticket".
Part of the equation is air drag. Planes, once at altitude are very efficient. The SR-71 was more efficient the higher and faster it flew (still, never an economy flight but WAY faster than trains ;-). Trains have to push through the same density of air over the whole route. Long distance trains also have to put up with elevation gain. True, an overhead electric line can put power back into the grid when descending but it’s far from a 100% return. I’m not sure how the trade-of between rolling friction and lift equate. My hunch is the advantage goes to the plane. Another thing to keep in mind is that HSR as implemented in Europe and Japan is not a “cheap ticket”.

]]> By: Martin H. Duke http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/28/pacific-northwest-to-get-598-million-in-hsr-funds/#comment-101487 Martin H. Duke Sat, 30 Jan 2010 05:14:22 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11904#comment-101487 Tony, Under conventional assumptions you're certainly right. There's a signficant tail risk, however, that the economics of flying change over the next few decades so that it's out of reach for most people.
Tony,

Under conventional assumptions you’re certainly right. There’s a signficant tail risk, however, that the economics of flying change over the next few decades so that it’s out of reach for most people.

]]> By: Tony the Economist http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/28/pacific-northwest-to-get-598-million-in-hsr-funds/#comment-101484 Tony the Economist Sat, 30 Jan 2010 04:37:52 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11904#comment-101484 Mike Orr, HSR will never make sense from here to CA or Chicago. Even at 300 mph (and that's mag-lev speeds, not european HSR), you could never be time competitive with air travel over those distances, and the amount of energy you need to get a train going that fast is comparable to the energy you need to power a jet. The cost of infrastructure over those distances is so high that even if there were operational cost savings, it would not pay for itself for 100 years.
Mike Orr,

HSR will never make sense from here to CA or Chicago. Even at 300 mph (and that’s mag-lev speeds, not european HSR), you could never be time competitive with air travel over those distances, and the amount of energy you need to get a train going that fast is comparable to the energy you need to power a jet. The cost of infrastructure over those distances is so high that even if there were operational cost savings, it would not pay for itself for 100 years.

]]> By: Tony the Economist http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/28/pacific-northwest-to-get-598-million-in-hsr-funds/#comment-101480 Tony the Economist Sat, 30 Jan 2010 04:21:40 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11904#comment-101480 I love the advertising benefit of a train flying past motorists at 200 mph. It really makes people think, "Why am I driving again?"
I love the advertising benefit of a train flying past motorists at 200 mph. It really makes people think, “Why am I driving again?”

]]> By: Tony the Economist http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/28/pacific-northwest-to-get-598-million-in-hsr-funds/#comment-101478 Tony the Economist Sat, 30 Jan 2010 04:16:07 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11904#comment-101478 Blah, blah, blah, treehugger. Next you'll be telling us we should insulate our houses, use compact florescent lightbulbs and cut back on barbecuing endangered animals over a pit of burning rubber tires.
Blah, blah, blah, treehugger. Next you’ll be telling us we should insulate our houses, use compact florescent lightbulbs and cut back on barbecuing endangered animals over a pit of burning rubber tires.

]]> By: Tony the Economist http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/28/pacific-northwest-to-get-598-million-in-hsr-funds/#comment-101476 Tony the Economist Sat, 30 Jan 2010 04:04:28 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11904#comment-101476 MTE, You're cheating. You <i>must</i> show up 10 minutes before the train leaves or they won't let you on and if we're going with the typical person, they show up 20 to 30 minutes early. You don't get to compare a typical, cautious bag-checking amateur traveler taking an airplane to a high-strung over-caffeinated under-the-wire train rider. Compare apples to apples and it's still faster to fly by about 20 minutes. Furthermore, you are assuming a destination pair that is purely optimized for train travel (train station to train station) and giving Cascades credit for the travel times and reliability improvements they have not yet implemented. I also run though the airport and the train station and I have missed flights and missed trains because of it, but with only 4 trains a day between Seattle and Portland, and most of them being sold out on weekends, it's actually a lot more inconvenient to miss the train than it is to miss a flight.
MTE,

You’re cheating. You must show up 10 minutes before the train leaves or they won’t let you on and if we’re going with the typical person, they show up 20 to 30 minutes early. You don’t get to compare a typical, cautious bag-checking amateur traveler taking an airplane to a high-strung over-caffeinated under-the-wire train rider. Compare apples to apples and it’s still faster to fly by about 20 minutes.

Furthermore, you are assuming a destination pair that is purely optimized for train travel (train station to train station) and giving Cascades credit for the travel times and reliability improvements they have not yet implemented.

I also run though the airport and the train station and I have missed flights and missed trains because of it, but with only 4 trains a day between Seattle and Portland, and most of them being sold out on weekends, it’s actually a lot more inconvenient to miss the train than it is to miss a flight.

]]> By: Tony the Economist http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/28/pacific-northwest-to-get-598-million-in-hsr-funds/#comment-101473 Tony the Economist Sat, 30 Jan 2010 03:52:56 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11904#comment-101473 True, but 90%+ of the passengers are traveling from Seattle to Portland, all the other city pairs in between combined amount to less than 10% of the ridership. Perhaps this will change over time. I think that Tacoma and Olympia in particular will become major trip generators over time.
True, but 90%+ of the passengers are traveling from Seattle to Portland, all the other city pairs in between combined amount to less than 10% of the ridership. Perhaps this will change over time. I think that Tacoma and Olympia in particular will become major trip generators over time.

]]> By: Tony the Economist http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/28/pacific-northwest-to-get-598-million-in-hsr-funds/#comment-101472 Tony the Economist Sat, 30 Jan 2010 03:49:14 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11904#comment-101472 A 200 mph train over a distance of 180 miles would put the station to station trip time at about 1 hour. That beats both air travel and driving hands down. Some people will still drive, but their reason for doing so will be so that they can have their car with them on the other end of the trip. For those folks, faster travel times are not the solution, marginal pricing of auto-travel + car sharing are the keys.
A 200 mph train over a distance of 180 miles would put the station to station trip time at about 1 hour. That beats both air travel and driving hands down. Some people will still drive, but their reason for doing so will be so that they can have their car with them on the other end of the trip. For those folks, faster travel times are not the solution, marginal pricing of auto-travel + car sharing are the keys.

]]> By: Tony the Economist http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/28/pacific-northwest-to-get-598-million-in-hsr-funds/#comment-101470 Tony the Economist Sat, 30 Jan 2010 03:44:03 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11904#comment-101470 Um, no. It is faster to fly from Seattle to Portland than to take a train. You can get from King Street Station to Union Station faster by taking Link or a cab to Sea-Tac, flying horizon to PDX and then taking MAX or a cab to Union Station. When you factor in airport to city center travel and extra security time at the airport and flying is not a lot faster, but it is faster. Until Cascades gets down to 2 hr travel time, flying is going to be faster. If anyone does not believe me, let's make a bet. We'll race from any starting point in the Seattle to any point in Portland. I'll use air transport, you use Cascades. Loser pays for both party's transportation expenses + $1000. This does not mean flying is a better value, the cost difference is substantial and trains are more fun, but if it's a race you're looking for, flying still wins, at least for now. I look forward to the day when that is no longer the case, but we're not there yet.
Um, no. It is faster to fly from Seattle to Portland than to take a train. You can get from King Street Station to Union Station faster by taking Link or a cab to Sea-Tac, flying horizon to PDX and then taking MAX or a cab to Union Station. When you factor in airport to city center travel and extra security time at the airport and flying is not a lot faster, but it is faster. Until Cascades gets down to 2 hr travel time, flying is going to be faster. If anyone does not believe me, let’s make a bet. We’ll race from any starting point in the Seattle to any point in Portland. I’ll use air transport, you use Cascades. Loser pays for both party’s transportation expenses + $1000.

This does not mean flying is a better value, the cost difference is substantial and trains are more fun, but if it’s a race you’re looking for, flying still wins, at least for now. I look forward to the day when that is no longer the case, but we’re not there yet.

]]> By: Andrew http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/28/pacific-northwest-to-get-598-million-in-hsr-funds/#comment-101433 Andrew Sat, 30 Jan 2010 01:47:57 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11904#comment-101433 I agree it's a start... I just wish it'd start "faster". Like 180-220mph fast.
I agree it’s a start… I just wish it’d start “faster”. Like 180-220mph fast.

]]> By: Anc http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/28/pacific-northwest-to-get-598-million-in-hsr-funds/#comment-101429 Anc Sat, 30 Jan 2010 01:24:41 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11904#comment-101429 Ah.... it's going through the Reservation, not Post. I was wondering how the heck that was going to work.
Ah…. it’s going through the Reservation, not Post. I was wondering how the heck that was going to work.

]]> By: Chris Stefan http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/28/pacific-northwest-to-get-598-million-in-hsr-funds/#comment-101425 Chris Stefan Sat, 30 Jan 2010 01:04:08 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11904#comment-101425 As far as I know Dupont is actually in the ST taxing district as is a large chunk of Pierce County out toward Graham. Dupont is not on the base property it has civilian residents and a number of businesses including the regional headquarters of State Farm. Here's info on the cross-base highway: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/SR704/CrossBase/map.htm
As far as I know Dupont is actually in the ST taxing district as is a large chunk of Pierce County out toward Graham.

Dupont is not on the base property it has civilian residents and a number of businesses including the regional headquarters of State Farm.

Here’s info on the cross-base highway:
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/SR704/CrossBase/map.htm

]]> By: Chris Stefan http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/28/pacific-northwest-to-get-598-million-in-hsr-funds/#comment-101423 Chris Stefan Sat, 30 Jan 2010 00:59:28 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11904#comment-101423 The Milwaukee Road Hiawathas used to do some amazing speeds between Minneapolis and Chicago back in the 30's, with steam power no less! The official record was 112 mph, though unofficially much higher speeds were achieved.
The Milwaukee Road Hiawathas used to do some amazing speeds between Minneapolis and Chicago back in the 30′s, with steam power no less! The official record was 112 mph, though unofficially much higher speeds were achieved.

]]> By: aw http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/01/28/pacific-northwest-to-get-598-million-in-hsr-funds/#comment-101418 aw Sat, 30 Jan 2010 00:16:29 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11904#comment-101418 Cross base highway: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/projects/sr704/crossbase/ "When complete, the Cross-base Highway (SR 704) will provide regional travelers with a new six-mile-long, multi-lane divided highway beginning at the I-5 Thorne Lane Interchange at the west end, connecting to 176th Street at SR 7 at the east end. This new alternate east-west route will ease congestion on I-5, SR 512, SR 7 and Spanaway Loop Road by providing a route through the Fort Lewis and McChord military bases."
Cross base highway: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/projects/sr704/crossbase/

“When complete, the Cross-base Highway (SR 704) will provide regional travelers with a new six-mile-long, multi-lane divided highway beginning at the I-5 Thorne Lane Interchange at the west end, connecting to 176th Street at SR 7 at the east end.

This new alternate east-west route will ease congestion on I-5, SR 512, SR 7 and Spanaway Loop Road by providing a route through the Fort Lewis and McChord military bases.”

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