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	<title>Comments on: Tunnel Equity</title>
	<atom:link href="http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/03/tunnel-equity/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/03/tunnel-equity/</link>
	<description>Transit in the Greater Seattle Area</description>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/03/tunnel-equity/#comment-106423</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 04:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11462#comment-106423</guid>
		<description>Huh.  I hadn&#039;t thought of doing two lines.  If it really would be as cheap to build two lines (one through SODO, one through Rainier Valley) as to tunnel, I see two choices.  With some snaking in the rectangle between Dearborn, Airport Way, 5th Ave, and I-5, go along the S edge of Dearborn, which would require redoing the Dearborn-I-5 overcrossing, and probably would displace some of the Seattle maintenance yard.

Alternately, convert the I-90 express lanes W of Rainier to transit-only and then either build ramps down to Rainier Ave, taking out the access to the I-90 EB flyer stop from the W side of Rainier, so it would only be accessible from the E side of the road, or building an elevated structure to cross over EB I-90.

Then do the same sort of work to widen Rainier as was done to MLK Way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Huh.  I hadn&#8217;t thought of doing two lines.  If it really would be as cheap to build two lines (one through SODO, one through Rainier Valley) as to tunnel, I see two choices.  With some snaking in the rectangle between Dearborn, Airport Way, 5th Ave, and I-5, go along the S edge of Dearborn, which would require redoing the Dearborn-I-5 overcrossing, and probably would displace some of the Seattle maintenance yard.</p>
<p>Alternately, convert the I-90 express lanes W of Rainier to transit-only and then either build ramps down to Rainier Ave, taking out the access to the I-90 EB flyer stop from the W side of Rainier, so it would only be accessible from the E side of the road, or building an elevated structure to cross over EB I-90.</p>
<p>Then do the same sort of work to widen Rainier as was done to MLK Way.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Anc</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/03/tunnel-equity/#comment-103539</link>
		<dc:creator>Anc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Feb 2010 00:19:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11462#comment-103539</guid>
		<description>It doesn&#039;t require any kind of faith, just the ability to reason, to see that you are more likely to influence future events than past events.

You may choose to ignore the reality of the network expanding, and the extreme likelyhood that it will continue to expand, but you can&#039;t ignore the simple reality that the past is the past.</description>
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It doesn&#8217;t require any kind of faith, just the ability to reason, to see that you are more likely to influence future events than past events.</p>
<p>You may choose to ignore the reality of the network expanding, and the extreme likelyhood that it will continue to expand, but you can&#8217;t ignore the simple reality that the past is the past.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Anc</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/03/tunnel-equity/#comment-103536</link>
		<dc:creator>Anc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Feb 2010 00:09:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11462#comment-103536</guid>
		<description>Someone else can do the math, but when everything that has already been approved is built out, won&#039;t the Link Light Rail system have 39 stations?   I imagine that is where the number comes from:  Tacoma, South, Central, U, North and East.</description>
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Someone else can do the math, but when everything that has already been approved is built out, won&#8217;t the Link Light Rail system have 39 stations?   I imagine that is where the number comes from:  Tacoma, South, Central, U, North and East.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Gary</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/03/tunnel-equity/#comment-103535</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Feb 2010 00:08:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11462#comment-103535</guid>
		<description>So then why didn&#039;t ST2 have funding for a short tunnel in Belleuve? It&#039;s obvious looking at the siting that this would have been extremely useful for a regional system to not bottle neck in Downtown Bellevue.  It&#039;s pretty clear that there is already a ton of auto &amp; bus traffic. Adding LINK on the surface is going to make this a lot worse.</description>
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So then why didn&#8217;t ST2 have funding for a short tunnel in Belleuve? It&#8217;s obvious looking at the siting that this would have been extremely useful for a regional system to not bottle neck in Downtown Bellevue.  It&#8217;s pretty clear that there is already a ton of auto &amp; bus traffic. Adding LINK on the surface is going to make this a lot worse.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: serial catowner</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/03/tunnel-equity/#comment-103504</link>
		<dc:creator>serial catowner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 21:43:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11462#comment-103504</guid>
		<description>Chris, we have a &lt;a href=&quot;http://streetcar.slumberland.org/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;streetcar blog&lt;/a&gt; for the waterfront streetcar, and we can always use more posters (and more readers).  A couple of guys were e-mailing me last month about putting some actual physical presence in the game, which I, for various reasons, cannot do.  I&#039;ll be happy to connect you with the blog or the enthusiasts or just take your e-mail and work it into a blog post- you can e-mail me at tscott-at-sinclair-dot-net.</description>
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Chris, we have a <a href="http://streetcar.slumberland.org/" rel="nofollow">streetcar blog</a> for the waterfront streetcar, and we can always use more posters (and more readers).  A couple of guys were e-mailing me last month about putting some actual physical presence in the game, which I, for various reasons, cannot do.  I&#8217;ll be happy to connect you with the blog or the enthusiasts or just take your e-mail and work it into a blog post- you can e-mail me at tscott-at-sinclair-dot-net.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Martin H. Duke</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/03/tunnel-equity/#comment-103467</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin H. Duke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 19:09:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11462#comment-103467</guid>
		<description>misha,

I find your comments interesting, although Ben obviously doesn&#039;t.  Ben and I had a conversation about this offline, and I want to make it clear that his &quot;stop it&quot; remarks are not made as a moderator; you are &lt;b&gt;not&lt;/b&gt; being threatened with moderation for the content of your posts.</description>
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misha,</p>
<p>I find your comments interesting, although Ben obviously doesn&#8217;t.  Ben and I had a conversation about this offline, and I want to make it clear that his &#8220;stop it&#8221; remarks are not made as a moderator; you are <b>not</b> being threatened with moderation for the content of your posts.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Transit Guy</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/03/tunnel-equity/#comment-103466</link>
		<dc:creator>Transit Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 19:08:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11462#comment-103466</guid>
		<description>Misha&#039;s going off in all directions at once. Methinks she/he is pulling our collective leg.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Misha&#8217;s going off in all directions at once. Methinks she/he is pulling our collective leg.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Transit Guy</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/03/tunnel-equity/#comment-103464</link>
		<dc:creator>Transit Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 19:00:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11462#comment-103464</guid>
		<description>Surface light rail in downtown Bellevue would be like surface light rail in downtown Seattle (on 3rd Ave. and on Pine St.) -- a real pain and a slower trip for riders. 

There&#039;s a reason the prime transit corridor through downtown Seattle was put where it is, and with downtown Bellevue becoming the hub of the east side, same as DT Seattle is on the west, they need a similar facility. Unless they don&#039;t want to grow and compete with DT Seattle, and are content with the limits imposed by a car-centric transportation grid.</description>
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Surface light rail in downtown Bellevue would be like surface light rail in downtown Seattle (on 3rd Ave. and on Pine St.) &#8212; a real pain and a slower trip for riders. </p>
<p>There&#8217;s a reason the prime transit corridor through downtown Seattle was put where it is, and with downtown Bellevue becoming the hub of the east side, same as DT Seattle is on the west, they need a similar facility. Unless they don&#8217;t want to grow and compete with DT Seattle, and are content with the limits imposed by a car-centric transportation grid.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: ST Guy</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/03/tunnel-equity/#comment-103461</link>
		<dc:creator>ST Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 18:55:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11462#comment-103461</guid>
		<description>The design limit adopted by Sound Transit for Link light rail is a maximum grade of 6 percent, ascending and descending.</description>
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The design limit adopted by Sound Transit for Link light rail is a maximum grade of 6 percent, ascending and descending.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/03/tunnel-equity/#comment-103449</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 18:08:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11462#comment-103449</guid>
		<description>The MF is mentioned in the East Link DEIS and I believe in the ST board decision selecting their prefered alignment (B3, C3T/C4A, D2A, E2, MF5).</description>
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The MF is mentioned in the East Link DEIS and I believe in the ST board decision selecting their prefered alignment (B3, C3T/C4A, D2A, E2, MF5).<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/03/tunnel-equity/#comment-103441</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 17:44:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11462#comment-103441</guid>
		<description>I know in the past an Eastside MF has been discussed here at STB but I was curious and started digging around the ST website and I can&#039;t actually find anything about an Eastside MF. The only thing I can find is a maintenance base near Seatac and 272th St to hold up to 50 cars and the possibility of storing up to 22 cars at the ends of the lines.</description>
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I know in the past an Eastside MF has been discussed here at STB but I was curious and started digging around the ST website and I can&#8217;t actually find anything about an Eastside MF. The only thing I can find is a maintenance base near Seatac and 272th St to hold up to 50 cars and the possibility of storing up to 22 cars at the ends of the lines.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: misha</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/03/tunnel-equity/#comment-103440</link>
		<dc:creator>misha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 17:40:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11462#comment-103440</guid>
		<description>I understand we had to build the tunnel alignment once ST 2.1 passed.  I&#039;m not talking about the funding - the topic isn&#039;t &quot;Seattle got tunnels and Bellevue doesn&#039;t because that&#039;s how the funding is allocated.&quot;  I&#039;m talking about why it is that way.

I can&#039;t claim to understand why my comments are so annoying, but if you want me to stop, I will.</description>
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I understand we had to build the tunnel alignment once ST 2.1 passed.  I&#8217;m not talking about the funding &#8211; the topic isn&#8217;t &#8220;Seattle got tunnels and Bellevue doesn&#8217;t because that&#8217;s how the funding is allocated.&#8221;  I&#8217;m talking about why it is that way.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t claim to understand why my comments are so annoying, but if you want me to stop, I will.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: misha</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/03/tunnel-equity/#comment-103438</link>
		<dc:creator>misha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 17:25:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11462#comment-103438</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not trying to be a bad commenter and I am not trying to &quot;gotcha&quot; Ben, everyone makes errors.  I admit I was rude in my first comments and I sincerely apologize.  

I&#039;m just trying to make the point that the tunnel alignments in Seattle were not our only options to build light rail in Seattle.  I understand if we kept the tunnel alignment and tried to replicate it on the surface it would be unfeasible; that&#039;s not what I&#039;m suggesting.  I really don&#039;t think anyone believes that is incorrect?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I&#8217;m not trying to be a bad commenter and I am not trying to &#8220;gotcha&#8221; Ben, everyone makes errors.  I admit I was rude in my first comments and I sincerely apologize.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m just trying to make the point that the tunnel alignments in Seattle were not our only options to build light rail in Seattle.  I understand if we kept the tunnel alignment and tried to replicate it on the surface it would be unfeasible; that&#8217;s not what I&#8217;m suggesting.  I really don&#8217;t think anyone believes that is incorrect?<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/03/tunnel-equity/#comment-103424</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 16:06:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11462#comment-103424</guid>
		<description>You exaggerate just as much as those who are screaming that a surface alignment will &quot;kill&quot; downtown Bellevue. The surface alignments currently on the table will have anywhere from 8 to 12 blocks of at-grade running in downtown. That hardly amounts to a &quot;10-minute jog in the route&quot;.

As for tunneling east of 405 I hardly see the point other than to burn huge piles of cash.</description>
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You exaggerate just as much as those who are screaming that a surface alignment will &#8220;kill&#8221; downtown Bellevue. The surface alignments currently on the table will have anywhere from 8 to 12 blocks of at-grade running in downtown. That hardly amounts to a &#8220;10-minute jog in the route&#8221;.</p>
<p>As for tunneling east of 405 I hardly see the point other than to burn huge piles of cash.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/03/tunnel-equity/#comment-103423</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 16:01:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11462#comment-103423</guid>
		<description>All I can really say is &quot;put up or shut up&quot;. I&#039;m ready to do whatever I can in terms of time and money to support a serious effort at a Friends of the George Benson Waterfront Streetcar organization. The same thing goes for an organization advocating for a citywide streetcar network. I&#039;ve seen a lot of kvetching, especially over the George Benson line, but I can&#039;t say as I&#039;ve seen a serious effort to either bring back the waterfront line or to advocate for a citywide streetcar network. I&#039;d consider forming such an organization myself, but I don&#039;t have the time, energy, skills, or connections to do so.

As for the Fremont/Ballard line, I&#039;d say it has a fairly good chance of getting built as Conlin seems to feel it is his legacy project. The best thing to do at this point would be to write the members of the City Council saying you support a Fremont/Ballard streetcar line and that you support putting it on the ballot in the next two years.</description>
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All I can really say is &#8220;put up or shut up&#8221;. I&#8217;m ready to do whatever I can in terms of time and money to support a serious effort at a Friends of the George Benson Waterfront Streetcar organization. The same thing goes for an organization advocating for a citywide streetcar network. I&#8217;ve seen a lot of kvetching, especially over the George Benson line, but I can&#8217;t say as I&#8217;ve seen a serious effort to either bring back the waterfront line or to advocate for a citywide streetcar network. I&#8217;d consider forming such an organization myself, but I don&#8217;t have the time, energy, skills, or connections to do so.</p>
<p>As for the Fremont/Ballard line, I&#8217;d say it has a fairly good chance of getting built as Conlin seems to feel it is his legacy project. The best thing to do at this point would be to write the members of the City Council saying you support a Fremont/Ballard streetcar line and that you support putting it on the ballot in the next two years.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/03/tunnel-equity/#comment-103418</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:47:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11462#comment-103418</guid>
		<description>Actually I&#039;m pretty sure the original Sound Move taxes were limited to 30 years. The ST2 vote eliminated that restriction.</description>
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Actually I&#8217;m pretty sure the original Sound Move taxes were limited to 30 years. The ST2 vote eliminated that restriction.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/03/tunnel-equity/#comment-103417</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:44:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11462#comment-103417</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s the 1995 RTA proposal: http://www.soundtransit.org/Documents/pdf/projects/planning/1995_Plan_Subarea_Proposals.pdf</description>
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Here&#8217;s the 1995 RTA proposal: <a href="http://www.soundtransit.org/Documents/pdf/projects/planning/1995_Plan_Subarea_Proposals.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.soundtransit.org/Documents/pdf/projects/planning/1995_Plan_Subarea_Proposals.pdf</a><!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/03/tunnel-equity/#comment-103412</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:33:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11462#comment-103412</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t believe there is any money for an additional maintenance facility in ST2.

As Patrick said there is a siting plan for a Eastide MF on segment E in Redmond though like segment E it isn&#039;t currently funded.

I&#039;ve also seen some documents discussing a possible maintenance facility on the South and North lines though again I don&#039;t think those are funded yet.

The good news is the current maintenance facility is big enough to handle all of the cars needed for a full ST2 system build-out.

Based on the plans I&#039;ve seen for the Northgate station there are a couple of tail tracks there for train storage but it isn&#039;t a full train yard by any stretch of the imagination.</description>
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I don&#8217;t believe there is any money for an additional maintenance facility in ST2.</p>
<p>As Patrick said there is a siting plan for a Eastide MF on segment E in Redmond though like segment E it isn&#8217;t currently funded.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve also seen some documents discussing a possible maintenance facility on the South and North lines though again I don&#8217;t think those are funded yet.</p>
<p>The good news is the current maintenance facility is big enough to handle all of the cars needed for a full ST2 system build-out.</p>
<p>Based on the plans I&#8217;ve seen for the Northgate station there are a couple of tail tracks there for train storage but it isn&#8217;t a full train yard by any stretch of the imagination.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stefan</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/03/tunnel-equity/#comment-103408</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:15:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11462#comment-103408</guid>
		<description>That routing would have lost at least 1/2 of the current Central Link riders. It also probably wouldn&#039;t get any Federal money.</description>
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That routing would have lost at least 1/2 of the current Central Link riders. It also probably wouldn&#8217;t get any Federal money.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: serial catowner</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/03/tunnel-equity/#comment-103401</link>
		<dc:creator>serial catowner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 14:46:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=11462#comment-103401</guid>
		<description>What I&#039;m seeing here is transit-as-religion.  The True Believer doesn&#039;t need any proof- a few runic inscriptions, and some proclamations from High Priests will suffice.

I would love to believe, but my faith is weak.  I see a city that discontinued a profitable and important streetcar line.  The First Hill line is being built by ST because they feel they promised the voters a station they are now unable to provide.  I&#039;m not convinced Seattle would build that line on their own.  And the Mayor who wanted to build the First Avenue Line was defeated by the candidate who said he wouldn&#039;t build it.

The South Lake Union line is a short line that was heavily bankrolled by a few large property owners on a street that everyone agreed was underused and overaged.  Building a First Avenue line from the Seattle Center down to Pioneer Square and then out to the CD will be a lot more difficult. 

Ah, who am I kidding- I don&#039;t want to &lt;i&gt;believe&lt;/i&gt;, I want to be &lt;i&gt;convinced&lt;/i&gt;- and it&#039;s going to take more than a few pretty drawings and a few words from on high to do it.</description>
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What I&#8217;m seeing here is transit-as-religion.  The True Believer doesn&#8217;t need any proof- a few runic inscriptions, and some proclamations from High Priests will suffice.</p>
<p>I would love to believe, but my faith is weak.  I see a city that discontinued a profitable and important streetcar line.  The First Hill line is being built by ST because they feel they promised the voters a station they are now unable to provide.  I&#8217;m not convinced Seattle would build that line on their own.  And the Mayor who wanted to build the First Avenue Line was defeated by the candidate who said he wouldn&#8217;t build it.</p>
<p>The South Lake Union line is a short line that was heavily bankrolled by a few large property owners on a street that everyone agreed was underused and overaged.  Building a First Avenue line from the Seattle Center down to Pioneer Square and then out to the CD will be a lot more difficult. </p>
<p>Ah, who am I kidding- I don&#8217;t want to <i>believe</i>, I want to be <i>convinced</i>- and it&#8217;s going to take more than a few pretty drawings and a few words from on high to do it.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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