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	<title>Comments on: New First Hill Streetcar info</title>
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	<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/09/new-first-hill-streetcar-info/</link>
	<description>Transit in the Greater Seattle Area</description>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/09/new-first-hill-streetcar-info/#comment-105408</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:17:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=12230#comment-105408</guid>
		<description>The numbers are such that there has been serious conversation about a class-action lawsuit against the City by cyclists who have been hurt by the SLUT tracks. I don&#039;t have precise numbers either, but I know they are out there.

And yes, the 14th loop solves quite a few issues with the Boren/Yesler intersection that several of us saw on a ride last summer.</description>
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The numbers are such that there has been serious conversation about a class-action lawsuit against the City by cyclists who have been hurt by the SLUT tracks. I don&#8217;t have precise numbers either, but I know they are out there.</p>
<p>And yes, the 14th loop solves quite a few issues with the Boren/Yesler intersection that several of us saw on a ride last summer.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/09/new-first-hill-streetcar-info/#comment-105407</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:13:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=12230#comment-105407</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been asking myself that very question, as I have seen drawings of 12th with a cycletrack.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I&#8217;ve been asking myself that very question, as I have seen drawings of 12th with a cycletrack.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Michael Snyder</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/09/new-first-hill-streetcar-info/#comment-105404</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Snyder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 02:41:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=12230#comment-105404</guid>
		<description>It is curious that a cycletrack was considered on broadway, but not on 12th.  Would 12th still be less ideal if a cycletrack were included there?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
It is curious that a cycletrack was considered on broadway, but not on 12th.  Would 12th still be less ideal if a cycletrack were included there?<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Michael Snyder</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/09/new-first-hill-streetcar-info/#comment-105402</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Snyder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 02:39:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=12230#comment-105402</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry, this is a bit ridiculous.

Bicycle handlebars are between 18 and 24 inches wide on a lot of bicycles.

Car doors swing wide.  http://www.bikexprt.com/bikepol/facil/lanes/doorwidth.htm
A GMC 3/4 ton pickup is just over 10 feet from the curb edge to the tip of an opened door, which in this illustration gives the bicycle 6&quot; to fit in.

Now, are we going to say that streetcars have a 3&#039; passing distance with bicycles?  Or are streetcars not vehicles?


Also, where are the bicycle counts that SDOT promised to get for the proposed routes?  When are those expected?

This all seems rushed and not well researched, at least on the bicyle end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I&#8217;m sorry, this is a bit ridiculous.</p>
<p>Bicycle handlebars are between 18 and 24 inches wide on a lot of bicycles.</p>
<p>Car doors swing wide.  <a href="http://www.bikexprt.com/bikepol/facil/lanes/doorwidth.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.bikexprt.com/bikepol/facil/lanes/doorwidth.htm</a><br />
A GMC 3/4 ton pickup is just over 10 feet from the curb edge to the tip of an opened door, which in this illustration gives the bicycle 6&#8243; to fit in.</p>
<p>Now, are we going to say that streetcars have a 3&#8242; passing distance with bicycles?  Or are streetcars not vehicles?</p>
<p>Also, where are the bicycle counts that SDOT promised to get for the proposed routes?  When are those expected?</p>
<p>This all seems rushed and not well researched, at least on the bicyle end.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/09/new-first-hill-streetcar-info/#comment-105392</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 01:54:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=12230#comment-105392</guid>
		<description>Tony, that&#039;s the impression I got at the open house as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Tony, that&#8217;s the impression I got at the open house as well.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/09/new-first-hill-streetcar-info/#comment-105082</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 03:50:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=12230#comment-105082</guid>
		<description>On-street parking is also a buffer between pedestrians and cars.  

Pedestrians don&#039;t like walking next to traffic lanes, it&#039;s dangerous, noisy, and in wet climates it&#039;s a good way to get drenched when cars hit puddles.</description>
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On-street parking is also a buffer between pedestrians and cars.  </p>
<p>Pedestrians don&#8217;t like walking next to traffic lanes, it&#8217;s dangerous, noisy, and in wet climates it&#8217;s a good way to get drenched when cars hit puddles.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/09/new-first-hill-streetcar-info/#comment-105080</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 03:48:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=12230#comment-105080</guid>
		<description>Just a guess, but is the 11&#039; turn lane actually sized for the center-platform streetcar stops?

When you look at sidewalk width, keep in mind it&#039;s not all available for walking laterally.  You lose a couple of feet to parking meters and such, doorway room in front of buildings, etc., and then you want to keep a wide enough traffic area that two wheelchairs can pass in opposite directions without having to swerve around each other.  A 14&#039; sidewalk isn&#039;t really that big in an area with significant pedestrian traffic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Just a guess, but is the 11&#8242; turn lane actually sized for the center-platform streetcar stops?</p>
<p>When you look at sidewalk width, keep in mind it&#8217;s not all available for walking laterally.  You lose a couple of feet to parking meters and such, doorway room in front of buildings, etc., and then you want to keep a wide enough traffic area that two wheelchairs can pass in opposite directions without having to swerve around each other.  A 14&#8242; sidewalk isn&#8217;t really that big in an area with significant pedestrian traffic.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/09/new-first-hill-streetcar-info/#comment-105078</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 03:44:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=12230#comment-105078</guid>
		<description>Off-road cycling infrastructure didn&#039;t win in all of Europe, either.  

It definitely brings its own design concerns and costs -- the buffering essentially turns the cycle track into a separate road for intersection purposes, which can require separate traffic signals and turn phases if you want to avoid car/bike conflicts.

U.S. roads would generally require even more care than Europeans given the different legal environment.  In much of Europe, motoring is considered a dangerous activity, and motorists are held to some form of strict liability.  If a motorist hits a pedestrian or cyclist, there&#039;s a rebuttable presumption that the motorist was at fault.  (In the U.S., &quot;I didn&#039;t see him&quot; is a common excuse for not yielding to a pedestrian or cyclist.  In the Netherlands, that same statement would be a confession that the driver was driving too fast for conditions or wasn&#039;t paying enough attention to the road, because it&#039;s assumed the driver should be able to see and avoid other legal road users.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Off-road cycling infrastructure didn&#8217;t win in all of Europe, either.  </p>
<p>It definitely brings its own design concerns and costs &#8212; the buffering essentially turns the cycle track into a separate road for intersection purposes, which can require separate traffic signals and turn phases if you want to avoid car/bike conflicts.</p>
<p>U.S. roads would generally require even more care than Europeans given the different legal environment.  In much of Europe, motoring is considered a dangerous activity, and motorists are held to some form of strict liability.  If a motorist hits a pedestrian or cyclist, there&#8217;s a rebuttable presumption that the motorist was at fault.  (In the U.S., &#8220;I didn&#8217;t see him&#8221; is a common excuse for not yielding to a pedestrian or cyclist.  In the Netherlands, that same statement would be a confession that the driver was driving too fast for conditions or wasn&#8217;t paying enough attention to the road, because it&#8217;s assumed the driver should be able to see and avoid other legal road users.)<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/09/new-first-hill-streetcar-info/#comment-105076</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 03:39:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=12230#comment-105076</guid>
		<description>It works well in countries where there are enough cyclists that drivers are used to seeing them anyway.

Cars in the U.S. may rarely carry passengers, but passenger doors are often used for loading and unloading stuff from the passenger compartment.  And since motorists are used to being able to leave the passenger-side doors standing open while loading/unloading, they won&#039;t give that up instantly just because they&#039;re blocking traffic.  

On the driver&#039;s side they&#039;re at least aware a passing car could take their door off.  If it&#039;s just bikes on the passenger side, most motorists really don&#039;t even think about bikes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
It works well in countries where there are enough cyclists that drivers are used to seeing them anyway.</p>
<p>Cars in the U.S. may rarely carry passengers, but passenger doors are often used for loading and unloading stuff from the passenger compartment.  And since motorists are used to being able to leave the passenger-side doors standing open while loading/unloading, they won&#8217;t give that up instantly just because they&#8217;re blocking traffic.  </p>
<p>On the driver&#8217;s side they&#8217;re at least aware a passing car could take their door off.  If it&#8217;s just bikes on the passenger side, most motorists really don&#8217;t even think about bikes.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/09/new-first-hill-streetcar-info/#comment-105053</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 01:17:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=12230#comment-105053</guid>
		<description>I recall that a big factor in this debate was centered in California.  In the 70&#039;s, California required bikes to ride on bike paths when they were built next to the roadway.  The paths were poorly constructed (essentially it was a sidewalk) and the intersection geometry was worse.  What occurred was that, not surprisingly, the collisions with bikes using the paths was much higher than those using the roadway (in defiance of the law).  This also helped the rise of the vehicular cycling philosophy.

In my work I&#039;ve had the chance to see collision reports and bicyclists using sidewalks still have a higher rate of collisions than those in the roadway.  Simply put, motorists see what is on the roadway, not on the sidewalk.  That is the key issue that will need to be addressed for cycle tracks to be designed and accepted in this country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I recall that a big factor in this debate was centered in California.  In the 70&#8242;s, California required bikes to ride on bike paths when they were built next to the roadway.  The paths were poorly constructed (essentially it was a sidewalk) and the intersection geometry was worse.  What occurred was that, not surprisingly, the collisions with bikes using the paths was much higher than those using the roadway (in defiance of the law).  This also helped the rise of the vehicular cycling philosophy.</p>
<p>In my work I&#8217;ve had the chance to see collision reports and bicyclists using sidewalks still have a higher rate of collisions than those in the roadway.  Simply put, motorists see what is on the roadway, not on the sidewalk.  That is the key issue that will need to be addressed for cycle tracks to be designed and accepted in this country.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Adam B. Parast</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/09/new-first-hill-streetcar-info/#comment-105015</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam B. Parast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 22:06:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=12230#comment-105015</guid>
		<description>In some ways yes some ways no. I have a friend who know a lot more about it than I. I guess back 20 years or so there was a big debate about on-street or off-street bicycle facilities and the on-street crowd won the North America while the off-street crowd won in Europe. 

The senior bicycle planner for PDOT and a principal at Alta are making a bicycle design manual for cities which is more responsive to urban environments than the highway centric designs.</description>
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In some ways yes some ways no. I have a friend who know a lot more about it than I. I guess back 20 years or so there was a big debate about on-street or off-street bicycle facilities and the on-street crowd won the North America while the off-street crowd won in Europe. </p>
<p>The senior bicycle planner for PDOT and a principal at Alta are making a bicycle design manual for cities which is more responsive to urban environments than the highway centric designs.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Anc</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/09/new-first-hill-streetcar-info/#comment-105010</link>
		<dc:creator>Anc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 22:03:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=12230#comment-105010</guid>
		<description>Also I believe I read on here (and it makes sense) that on street parking between bikes and peds is actually safer and generates more foot traffic than just lanes, sidewalk.

Take away the lanes (well lane in this case), not parking.</description>
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Also I believe I read on here (and it makes sense) that on street parking between bikes and peds is actually safer and generates more foot traffic than just lanes, sidewalk.</p>
<p>Take away the lanes (well lane in this case), not parking.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Anc</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/09/new-first-hill-streetcar-info/#comment-105008</link>
		<dc:creator>Anc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 22:00:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=12230#comment-105008</guid>
		<description>And by history, you mean excessive government regulation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
And by history, you mean excessive government regulation?<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: josh</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/09/new-first-hill-streetcar-info/#comment-104983</link>
		<dc:creator>josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 20:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=12230#comment-104983</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t conflate bike lanes and bicycle transportation infrastructure.

Most bike lanes in the U.S. are primarily a motorist facility, designed to make cyclists feel safe without having to take a position as far into the lane as they otherwise would.  A paint stripe doesn&#039;t stop cars from killing cyclists.

According to AASHTO, the minimum physical operating envelope for a cyclist is 40 inches.  This means that the cyclist&#039;s wheel track should be at least 20 inches to the left of any obstruction. 

When a typical passenger car is parked tight to the curb, the driver&#039;s door, when opened, will extend 110 to 120 inches from the curb, though some vehicles are considerably wider.  If open-door width is 120 inches, the cyclist&#039;s wheel track should then be a minimum of 140 inches from the curb. That&#039;s just under 12 feet from the curb as a safe, legal, standards-compliant location to expect bicycles when on-street parking is allowed.

Yet many city streets have 8-foot parking and 4-foot bike lanes.  A cyclist riding within these bike lanes is accepting significantly greater risk by riding closer to parked cars, but this positioning improves traffic flow for motorists by keeping most cyclists out of the general purpose lanes.

If you&#039;re talking about a four-foot bike lane with no parking beside it, or a bike lane with a buffer zone between parked cars and the right edge of the bike lane, those can actually improve cyclist safety.  But most bike lanes are designed to make cyclists feel good about riding too far to the right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Don&#8217;t conflate bike lanes and bicycle transportation infrastructure.</p>
<p>Most bike lanes in the U.S. are primarily a motorist facility, designed to make cyclists feel safe without having to take a position as far into the lane as they otherwise would.  A paint stripe doesn&#8217;t stop cars from killing cyclists.</p>
<p>According to AASHTO, the minimum physical operating envelope for a cyclist is 40 inches.  This means that the cyclist&#8217;s wheel track should be at least 20 inches to the left of any obstruction. </p>
<p>When a typical passenger car is parked tight to the curb, the driver&#8217;s door, when opened, will extend 110 to 120 inches from the curb, though some vehicles are considerably wider.  If open-door width is 120 inches, the cyclist&#8217;s wheel track should then be a minimum of 140 inches from the curb. That&#8217;s just under 12 feet from the curb as a safe, legal, standards-compliant location to expect bicycles when on-street parking is allowed.</p>
<p>Yet many city streets have 8-foot parking and 4-foot bike lanes.  A cyclist riding within these bike lanes is accepting significantly greater risk by riding closer to parked cars, but this positioning improves traffic flow for motorists by keeping most cyclists out of the general purpose lanes.</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re talking about a four-foot bike lane with no parking beside it, or a bike lane with a buffer zone between parked cars and the right edge of the bike lane, those can actually improve cyclist safety.  But most bike lanes are designed to make cyclists feel good about riding too far to the right.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Erik G.</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/09/new-first-hill-streetcar-info/#comment-104976</link>
		<dc:creator>Erik G.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 20:08:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=12230#comment-104976</guid>
		<description>Since cars average occupancy is 1.1 persons, why should I be concerned about any passenger doors?  They are rarely, if ever, used.

Funny, it works just fine in Holland and Denmark and Germany.  But I guess we are never going to be able to do that in the USA.  Makes me doubt any real future for alternative transportation here, including true High-Speed Rail.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Since cars average occupancy is 1.1 persons, why should I be concerned about any passenger doors?  They are rarely, if ever, used.</p>
<p>Funny, it works just fine in Holland and Denmark and Germany.  But I guess we are never going to be able to do that in the USA.  Makes me doubt any real future for alternative transportation here, including true High-Speed Rail.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Mickymse</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/09/new-first-hill-streetcar-info/#comment-104957</link>
		<dc:creator>Mickymse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 19:18:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=12230#comment-104957</guid>
		<description>Couldn&#039;t SU kick in for cobblestone street and landscaping along the streetcar route at that point. After all, it&#039;s not currently car-accessible, so who says it needs to be converted to a paved street?

I think it also presents opportunities for them to increase some commercial revenue for the university or bring the public in to some student-run productions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Couldn&#8217;t SU kick in for cobblestone street and landscaping along the streetcar route at that point. After all, it&#8217;s not currently car-accessible, so who says it needs to be converted to a paved street?</p>
<p>I think it also presents opportunities for them to increase some commercial revenue for the university or bring the public in to some student-run productions.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Martin H. Duke</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/09/new-first-hill-streetcar-info/#comment-104931</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin H. Duke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:15:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=12230#comment-104931</guid>
		<description>Tony,

I agree with your value judgment, but you have to account for the lives saved by reducing driving.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Tony,</p>
<p>I agree with your value judgment, but you have to account for the lives saved by reducing driving.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Adam B. Parast</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/09/new-first-hill-streetcar-info/#comment-104908</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam B. Parast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:45:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=12230#comment-104908</guid>
		<description>Yes it is very funny because that I know that are more engaged on this than I always talk about SU but they don&#039;t really engage publicly, which I find a bit odd.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
Yes it is very funny because that I know that are more engaged on this than I always talk about SU but they don&#8217;t really engage publicly, which I find a bit odd.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Adam B. Parast</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/09/new-first-hill-streetcar-info/#comment-104907</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam B. Parast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:43:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=12230#comment-104907</guid>
		<description>There is a lot of history behind that question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
There is a lot of history behind that question.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Adam B. Parast</title>
		<link>http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/02/09/new-first-hill-streetcar-info/#comment-104906</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam B. Parast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:40:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=12230#comment-104906</guid>
		<description>I think the extension would be 20-30 million very roughly. As for the street refubishment it could wildly vary from maybe 5 million to 15 million or all of broadway. Those are complete guesses btw. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><br />
I think the extension would be 20-30 million very roughly. As for the street refubishment it could wildly vary from maybe 5 million to 15 million or all of broadway. Those are complete guesses btw.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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