Comments on: SDOT: Two-Way Broadway for First Hill Streetcar http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/03/19/sdot-two-way-broadway-for-first-hill-streetcar/ Transit in the Greater Seattle Area Sat, 26 May 2012 05:51:17 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Jon Morgan http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/03/19/sdot-two-way-broadway-for-first-hill-streetcar/#comment-111681 Jon Morgan Thu, 25 Mar 2010 00:02:14 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=13356#comment-111681 With the Pioneer Square loop, there WOULD actually be two stops at the same intersection--one toward CapHill (southbound on 5th at the N side of Jackson), one toward the PS stop on 2nd Ave. S (westbound on Jackson on the W side of 5th) .
With the Pioneer Square loop, there WOULD actually be two stops at the same intersection–one toward CapHill (southbound on 5th at the N side of Jackson), one toward the PS stop on 2nd Ave. S (westbound on Jackson on the W side of 5th) .

]]> By: Jon Morgan http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/03/19/sdot-two-way-broadway-for-first-hill-streetcar/#comment-111680 Jon Morgan Wed, 24 Mar 2010 23:54:58 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=13356#comment-111680 The city has a transportation hub strategy based on Westlake, Coleman Dock, and King St. Station. McGraw Park will be the first of those (opening this fall), and over time they plan to close more blocks of Westlake Ave. which will improve SLUT travel time and reliability as well as the environment for bikes and pedestrians. The Central Streetcar would serve the ferry terminal from 1st Ave, and King St. Station as it goes east on Jackson. It would have quite high ridership with frequent service--like 5 minutes. It'd serve Pioneer Square, SAM, Pike Place, Belltown, and the Sculpture Park among others. Seems pretty darn good to me. But we need funding for it. I'm not sure Pine and Pike are too steep for modern streetcars. I understand from Ethan that Denny is. I really wanted the QA-CapHill ine.
The city has a transportation hub strategy based on Westlake, Coleman Dock, and King St. Station. McGraw Park will be the first of those (opening this fall), and over time they plan to close more blocks of Westlake Ave. which will improve SLUT travel time and reliability as well as the environment for bikes and pedestrians. The Central Streetcar would serve the ferry terminal from 1st Ave, and King St. Station as it goes east on Jackson. It would have quite high ridership with frequent service–like 5 minutes. It’d serve Pioneer Square, SAM, Pike Place, Belltown, and the Sculpture Park among others. Seems pretty darn good to me. But we need funding for it.

I’m not sure Pine and Pike are too steep for modern streetcars. I understand from Ethan that Denny is. I really wanted the QA-CapHill ine.

]]> By: Jon Morgan http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/03/19/sdot-two-way-broadway-for-first-hill-streetcar/#comment-111678 Jon Morgan Wed, 24 Mar 2010 23:47:05 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=13356#comment-111678 Also, 2.6 miles would be the round trip route; it's 1.3 long each way. ;)
Also, 2.6 miles would be the round trip route; it’s 1.3 long each way. ;)

]]> By: Jon Morgan http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/03/19/sdot-two-way-broadway-for-first-hill-streetcar/#comment-111677 Jon Morgan Wed, 24 Mar 2010 23:46:20 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=13356#comment-111677 That's a bit of an exaggeration. We have few blocks that are 600 feet long, and at least in the Pedestrian Master Plan, have an official policy of breaking up such big blocks. The SLUT stops generally are about 2-3 blocks apart.
That’s a bit of an exaggeration. We have few blocks that are 600 feet long, and at least in the Pedestrian Master Plan, have an official policy of breaking up such big blocks. The SLUT stops generally are about 2-3 blocks apart.

]]> By: Jon Morgan http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/03/19/sdot-two-way-broadway-for-first-hill-streetcar/#comment-111674 Jon Morgan Wed, 24 Mar 2010 23:42:19 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=13356#comment-111674 The Central Streetcar would overlap with the First Hill one on Jackson St. I don't where the Ballard-West Seattle one would go, but I wonder about 1st Ave. The Pioneer Square loop and stop were a late addition to the FH line as it is; it was only mandated to serve ID-Capitol Hill. We lucked out on Pioneer Square.
The Central Streetcar would overlap with the First Hill one on Jackson St. I don’t where the Ballard-West Seattle one would go, but I wonder about 1st Ave. The Pioneer Square loop and stop were a late addition to the FH line as it is; it was only mandated to serve ID-Capitol Hill. We lucked out on Pioneer Square.

]]> By: John http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/03/19/sdot-two-way-broadway-for-first-hill-streetcar/#comment-111490 John Tue, 23 Mar 2010 05:58:00 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=13356#comment-111490 I think the preservation of on-street parking is a key component to the conversation. CHCC wisely recognized that trying to fight the street use and parking battles at the same time would be extremely difficult; while I am concerned about the width of the proposed cycle track given its proximity to parked cars, I highly appreciate the strategic compromise implicit in the proposal.
I think the preservation of on-street parking is a key component to the conversation. CHCC wisely recognized that trying to fight the street use and parking battles at the same time would be extremely difficult; while I am concerned about the width of the proposed cycle track given its proximity to parked cars, I highly appreciate the strategic compromise implicit in the proposal.

]]> By: Wells http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/03/19/sdot-two-way-broadway-for-first-hill-streetcar/#comment-111403 Wells Mon, 22 Mar 2010 15:29:36 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=13356#comment-111403 Also, this new map needs to show optional stations siting.
Also, this new map needs to show optional stations siting.

]]> By: Wells http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/03/19/sdot-two-way-broadway-for-first-hill-streetcar/#comment-111377 Wells Mon, 22 Mar 2010 06:10:11 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=13356#comment-111377 Each streetcar line is determined on its own merits and drawbacks. It is an advantage to connect all streetcar line, but various measurements of 1st Ave Line can relate to First Hill Line as if a transfer between them is assumed. The line seems illogically indirect to me, east for blocks then west seems circuitous. Earlier route proposals seemed more logical. Don't put cost considerations above design.
Each streetcar line is determined on its own merits and drawbacks. It is an advantage to connect all streetcar line, but various measurements of 1st Ave Line can relate to First Hill Line as if a transfer between them is assumed. The line seems illogically indirect to me, east for blocks then west seems circuitous. Earlier route proposals seemed more logical. Don’t put cost considerations above design.

]]> By: joshuadf http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/03/19/sdot-two-way-broadway-for-first-hill-streetcar/#comment-111361 joshuadf Mon, 22 Mar 2010 03:16:11 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=13356#comment-111361 Where did you get that misinformation? 600 feet would be nearly every block. On http://www.seattlestreetcar.org/about/ it says 11 stops for 2.6 mile route (13728 ft). 13728 / 11 = 1248 average, though of course a few are closer together than others. The SLU Trolley has about half as many stops at the MT 70 through SLU. The SLU Streetcar does have one big problem area: the large number of stoplights and cross streets on the diagonal part of Westlake Ave. The McGraw Plaza redesign will help a little bit with that.
Where did you get that misinformation? 600 feet would be nearly every block. On http://www.seattlestreetcar.org/about/ it says 11 stops for 2.6 mile route (13728 ft). 13728 / 11 = 1248 average, though of course a few are closer together than others. The SLU Trolley has about half as many stops at the MT 70 through SLU.

The SLU Streetcar does have one big problem area: the large number of stoplights and cross streets on the diagonal part of Westlake Ave. The McGraw Plaza redesign will help a little bit with that.

]]> By: Tim Whittome http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/03/19/sdot-two-way-broadway-for-first-hill-streetcar/#comment-111341 Tim Whittome Mon, 22 Mar 2010 00:06:09 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=13356#comment-111341 This alignment looks fine to me looking at this map. It seems to hit all the right bases. Just one question: Does SDOT envision a stop outside both Union and King Street Stations?
This alignment looks fine to me looking at this map. It seems to hit all the right bases. Just one question:

Does SDOT envision a stop outside both Union and King Street Stations?

]]> By: Anc http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/03/19/sdot-two-way-broadway-for-first-hill-streetcar/#comment-111327 Anc Sun, 21 Mar 2010 22:11:26 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=13356#comment-111327 Hopefully SDOT keeps listening to ST when it comes to other Streetcar lines.
Hopefully SDOT keeps listening to ST when it comes to other Streetcar lines.

]]> By: Michael Snyder http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/03/19/sdot-two-way-broadway-for-first-hill-streetcar/#comment-111256 Michael Snyder Sun, 21 Mar 2010 15:32:41 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=13356#comment-111256 I attend the meetings most months. If you'd like my notes, or want me to watch for something, let me know.
I attend the meetings most months. If you’d like my notes, or want me to watch for something, let me know.

]]> By: serial catowner http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/03/19/sdot-two-way-broadway-for-first-hill-streetcar/#comment-111243 serial catowner Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:19:23 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=13356#comment-111243 Actually, they should build the Central Line and then connect Pier 90 via Colman and Pioneer Square. The cruise ships brought over 800,000 passengers to Seattle last year.
Actually, they should build the Central Line and then connect Pier 90 via Colman and Pioneer Square. The cruise ships brought over 800,000 passengers to Seattle last year.

]]> By: Tony the Economist http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/03/19/sdot-two-way-broadway-for-first-hill-streetcar/#comment-111225 Tony the Economist Sun, 21 Mar 2010 06:46:09 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=13356#comment-111225 The Capitol Hill-First Hill Urban Center has over 35,000 employees, 35,000 residents and 15,000 college students. I would hardly call this an "inessential peripheral line". I agree that Coleman Dock to Capitol Hill via First Ave and Pine St is an excellent route though.
The Capitol Hill-First Hill Urban Center has over 35,000 employees, 35,000 residents and 15,000 college students. I would hardly call this an “inessential peripheral line”. I agree that Coleman Dock to Capitol Hill via First Ave and Pine St is an excellent route though.

]]> By: Tony the Economist http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/03/19/sdot-two-way-broadway-for-first-hill-streetcar/#comment-111224 Tony the Economist Sun, 21 Mar 2010 06:41:54 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=13356#comment-111224 Do you have a source on that analysis, Zef?
Do you have a source on that analysis, Zef?

]]> By: Anandakos http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/03/19/sdot-two-way-broadway-for-first-hill-streetcar/#comment-111223 Anandakos Sun, 21 Mar 2010 06:41:14 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=13356#comment-111223 Of course they can. The hill on Pine is no steeper than the one up Harrison that the Portland Streetcar climbs. It's longer of course, but actually a little less steep.
Of course they can. The hill on Pine is no steeper than the one up Harrison that the Portland Streetcar climbs. It’s longer of course, but actually a little less steep.

]]> By: Tony the Economist http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/03/19/sdot-two-way-broadway-for-first-hill-streetcar/#comment-111222 Tony the Economist Sun, 21 Mar 2010 06:40:01 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=13356#comment-111222 The green circles are trees. The streetscape drawing is conceptual. We are not actually calling for the trees to be placed exactly where they are on the drawing.
The green circles are trees. The streetscape drawing is conceptual. We are not actually calling for the trees to be placed exactly where they are on the drawing.

]]> By: Tony the Economist http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/03/19/sdot-two-way-broadway-for-first-hill-streetcar/#comment-111221 Tony the Economist Sun, 21 Mar 2010 06:36:58 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=13356#comment-111221 The interlocal agreement between Sound Transit and SDOT specifically requires stops to be spaced 1200 to 2000 feet apart. This is reflective of ST's core philosophy of rapid transit. They are not interested in providing a social service for the transit dependent and the disabled as Metro is required to do; they are interested in one thing: get the middle class out of their cars. Thus, they always seek to provide transit that is time-competitive with the automobile whenever possible. In the case of streetcar, that means wider stop spacing. For comparison, the stops on the SLUT are spaced about 600 feet apart.
The interlocal agreement between Sound Transit and SDOT specifically requires stops to be spaced 1200 to 2000 feet apart. This is reflective of ST’s core philosophy of rapid transit. They are not interested in providing a social service for the transit dependent and the disabled as Metro is required to do; they are interested in one thing: get the middle class out of their cars. Thus, they always seek to provide transit that is time-competitive with the automobile whenever possible. In the case of streetcar, that means wider stop spacing.

For comparison, the stops on the SLUT are spaced about 600 feet apart.

]]> By: Chris Stefan http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/03/19/sdot-two-way-broadway-for-first-hill-streetcar/#comment-111210 Chris Stefan Sun, 21 Mar 2010 04:57:36 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=13356#comment-111210 Are you sure about that? Pike/Pine isn't a terribly steep hill. In any case a line up Pine is unlikely any time in the near term.
Are you sure about that? Pike/Pine isn’t a terribly steep hill.

In any case a line up Pine is unlikely any time in the near term.

]]> By: Zef Wagner http://seattletransitblog.com/2010/03/19/sdot-two-way-broadway-for-first-hill-streetcar/#comment-111209 Zef Wagner Sun, 21 Mar 2010 04:41:53 +0000 http://seattletransitblog.com/?p=13356#comment-111209 Modern streetcars can't go up Pine. Too steep.
Modern streetcars can’t go up Pine. Too steep.

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