114 Replies to “Sunday Open Thread: Animated Wipers”
Coming this Christmas to XBox and PS3.
Since this is an open thread…
The Downtown transit tunnel is really annoying me lately. I’ve always used it to zip back and forth through downtown in a minimum amount of time. I hate that you have to pay for Link through it, but when I’m really in a hurry would be willing to pay. The problem is, you have to swipe for Orca upstairs – before you know if a bus or Link will be waiting downstairs. That means that if you’re in a hurry and don’t care if it’s a bus or Link you have to pay Sound Transit even if you end up taking a Metro bus. This has happened to me several times.
That’s my rant. Now my question. Are they really enforcing payment in the tunnel? I’ve paid enough for Link rides while getting bus rides that I’m considering not paying once or twice and fighting the ticket if I get one.
I’ve seen fare enforcement in the tunnel. Obviously it’s the law, but enforcing it in the tunnel seems to me like kind of a cheap move by Sound Transit.
I would say 90% of the enforcement I’ve seen is between Stadium and Beacon Hill stations – the center platforms there make it easy for the officers to transfer going back and forth, and they go from one car to the other at SoDo.
Ironically, Portland will move to a policy of having trains be free in the city center, while you’ll have to pay for buses. Matt the Engineer needs to learn about the 2nd/4th couplet?
The 2nd/4th couplet? Is that a poetry thing?
Yeah orca reader upstairs is most annoying thing ever. Will cause a lot of missed revenue too. Honestly I’m not willing to miss a train just because some engineer or exec decided not to put link orca reader on platform. I’ve already taken my chances several times because it’s so dumb. For me, I often arrive to westlake via bus to take Link from the same platform. It’s ridiculous to go upstairs. I realize what the law is but yeah I’m not going to let their design flaw slow me down as much a to have to wait for the next train when there is one right there. I’ve even used te excuse to the transit supervise of “sorry I couldn’t find the reader on the platform to try to get my point across. Anyway, enough whining… I hope they fix that though cuz it’s really lame.
There is a reader on the Westlake southbound platform by Bay D, there’re also readers on the International District platforms.
I wouldn’t put readers on the platform level, it can get too crowded. That’s what the mezzanine level is designed for. The Pioneer Square ORCA readers are placed out of the way. It’s just awkward. They should’ve placed the readers as if they were turnstiles not in a dead end corner.
At Westlake, there’s an Orca reader on the southbound platform
Oh sweet! I don’t think there was originally or it must not have been enabled because this was a topic of discussion at link opening. Glad to know there is now; I’ll be sure to look for it and use it!
If you have a pass, do you have to tap out? As long as your pass covers the maximum fare, it shouldn’t matter.
Once I saw fares being enforced in the tunnel, but the guy announced that it was just “education” and that he wasn’t actually giving out tickets because it’s the RFA for buses. This was back in July.
I’m still really annoyed there aren’t ORCA readers on the Northbound platform at Westlake. I know the theory is people will transfer as soon as possible but that doesn’t seem to be the way people are really using the tunnel. Given that there will be anywhere from 6 to 10 years of joint bus-rail operation there really needs to be at least one reader on each platform for transfers or people shuttling between a station or two.
I also agree with Oran that the readers in both Pioneer Square and University Street are poorly placed. I guess the idea is to put a reader near each entrance, but I prefer placement at the top of the escalators like in Westlake and International District. I suppose it means they only need 3 readers for Pioneer Square and University Street.
I’ve thought that the ORCA readers being on the mezzanine is the dumbest idea ever from the first time I heard about it.
I assume there is some technical problem with having more on the platforms, but even if so it should be worked around as soon as possible.
If you could put all the ticket machines and ORCA readers on the platform without impacts on circulation, then why waste money building mezzanines?
The mezzanines facilitate passenger circulation in high-volume stations. You don’t want people to wade through a crowded platform to get to a reader.
The problem is the placement of the readers on the mezzanine. Just put them next to the stairs, escalators, and elevators leading to the platform, or at exits/entrances.
Ticket machines need to be on the mezzanine because they generate crowds, but people just tap their ORCAs for a half-second, so it’s okay to have them on the platform. They should have three or four on every platform in the tunnel.
Yeah why not just put card readers in both places? Just put readers everywhere and let natural human patterns take over. I see the benefit of having readers on the mezanine, but I don’t foresee link crowds ever getting to that level of crowdedness outside of special events for at least 10 or 20 years, at which time if platform scanners become a problem they can be removed. If I forget to scan on the mezzanine, I’d rather wade through a crowd than walk back up on the mezzanine. Are these things really that expensive??
What exactly would happen if you forget to tap out for Link? Would you get charged for the longest potential trip you could have taken?
@Jer: That’s correct
What was the reason they decided not to build the tunnel with center platforms (like the Bellevue and Federal Way Transit Centers, not to mention others)? It would make transferring from northbound to eastbound service, or westbound to southbound much easier. They might not even need a mezzanine.
Archie,
One reason not to go crazy with the readers is each additional reader costs Sound Transit money. I’d guess between buying the reader and installing it the marginal cost is likely at least $10,000 each. In addition running the wiring in locations in some stations may be difficult without resorting to surface conduit. Remember the DSTT stations are basically big concrete boxes underground so access to the other side of a wall is sort of limited.
They wanted the center lane for buses to pass each other. Center platform means adding another lane to the width of the station, increasing costs and impacts to nearby buildings.
How did the Bredas pass each other when they were on the wire? And now, passing is forbidden…
They had parallel wire strung over the passing lane with switches at either end. If an operator foresaw the need to pass he would switch to the passing wire while entering the station. If the operator hadn’t switched to the passing wire and needed to pass, say for passing a bus with a stuck wheelchair ramp, he would have to get out of the bus and manually move the poles over to the passing wire. Buses used to pass pretty often in the tunnel, I don’t know why it’s forbidden now. Maybe because of the new signaling system for operating with trains?
I had a similar problem the first (and thus far only) time I used Link to get to the airport. I didn’t see the ORCA readers when I entered Westlake Station from the street, so despite having a valid transfer fare from Metro on my card, I wound up paying full-price for a Link ticket with my e-purse at a TVM. (I knew from STB that there were no ORCA readers on the platform level so I had to take care of my ticket/transfer upstairs, and the only thing I saw when I came in was the TVMs.)
Just as I got down to the platform, a 194 arrived, and I knew that was probably my best option, but wasn’t about to pay a third time. It was only a few minutes later that I saw the small print on the Link ticket that it was a valid transfer to Metro, and I could’ve used it after all.
Combined with getting to the airport over 20 minutes later than if I’d taken that 194, the transfer/fare stuff really soured me on Link to the airport. Oran says there are 10 ORCA readers in Westlake Station, but I didn’t see a single one when I was in a hurry that day. At the very least it seems obvious to me that there should be a reader right by the TVMs.
Reading the above comments, I suppose I should say that I had understood from STB that there were no readers on the platform at that station. Regardless, expecting users to remember which stations in which directions have platform readers is ridiculous. All stations should have readers & TVMs in the same, logical locations: at entrances/exits, on the platform, in both directions.
With big signs over them, so that you can still find them in a crowd of people.
Should, yes. But Metro refused to do it for any stations other than Westlake SB and ID.
Why would Metro refuse to install more readers? Besides I thought Sound Transit owned/controlled the DSTT now?
Does Metro still own the DSTT?
Here’s a google cached page that explains part of it (original seems to have been lost with the domain name change):
As far as I can tell, the DSTT was built by Metro but largely or entirely with City of Seattle money because it was prior to Metro becoming entirely a County run agency. What’s unclear is what if any compensation went to the City for this. Currently ST is paying Metro for debt service on the tunnel and ST paid for all the modifications and upgrades required for Link (more than the original cost of the tunnel). Metro remains in control of operations in the tunnel. At some point (maybe now?) ownership is by ST.
I guess to be clear, the original financing was through City of Seattle but King County via Metro has been paying the bills since the change in Metro. As with most publicly financed projects using bonds, The lions share of the payment occurs long after construction is completed. Or, like the “new” roof for the Kingdome, after destruction is completed :=
The ORCA readers in Westlake are housed in yellow enclosures on yellow poles or on the wall. They are right at the top of the stairs and escalators, and next to the elevators leading to the platform.
Yeah, there are no obvious signs in the tunnel stations that point to ticket machines. And the station maps don’t have them either.
The readers are just dumbly placed, period. The mezzanine ones should be right at the top of the escalators, not off to the side like they are at 5th & Westlake. It’s convenient enough for me to tap the card as I’m walking to the escalator, but if I were buying a card from the TVM, I’d have to walk over to the side wall to tap it, then back to the escalator. The only reason I can think of for this is to avoid running cables on the floor, but I’m sure they could bring them down from the ceiling if they had to.
All stations should have readers on the platforms, at least as long as there are buses in the tunnel. Some people want to take the first vehicle that comes, and others may change their mind on their destination after they get to the platform. Some bus lines follow the train all the way to SODO, so it’s not only intra-tunnel routes where this matters.
I’ve never seen fare enforcers in the tunnel, but I’ve seen lots between SoDo and Beacon Hill. I’ve also seen plenty of people who didn’t realize that link was not free in the tunnel.
Maybe more people would realize it if they got a sound engineer to make the recorded announcement about Link requiring proof of payment more intelligible. In Pioneer Square Station all you hear is “Mrhphl mrhphl Link LIGHT rail. Tickets mrhprhl mhrphl station mezzanine mhrphl.”
Ha ha, the emphasis on “light” makes her sound funny. And it sounds like that on the other announcements.
Hey, that’s the same announcement they play when there’s a major service disruption… at least your transcription of lit looks about like the one I heard.
Oh come on, since you can make out a couple of words, Sound Transit clearly is failing to adopt the state of the art in transit public address systems. A good transit public address system will render any announcement no matter how clearly spoken as a burst of static and other random noise. Clearly we have a long ways to go before we are up to NYC subway standards.
Winner, winner! Funniest comment in a long while.
Reminds me of an SNL sketch…
I’ve seen plenty of people who didn’t realize Link wasn’t free in general… I heard someone say “you can just take the monorail [to Rainier Valley], it’s free.”
That is why we issue tickets. For many, that’s really the only way.
Fare enforcement signage is much better in the Valley now. Instead of itsy bitsy plaques, they have large overhang signs where the ORCA readers are now. At least that was the case at Othello. It could be much better in the DSTT though. All tunnel ORCA readers should be right at the top of the stairs/escalators, with either a yellow line painted or a sign on top. At least it needs to get that clear when the buses are booted.
Yeah the dual-operations is the reason for all the confusion downtown.
I wish the platforms weren’t fare-paid zones. I want a friend to be able to hang out with me while I wait for the train, or to wait for me on the platform. Needing to pay to be on the platform eliminates the tragedy from departures and takes the romance out of arrivals.
I don’t think they’re ticketing anyone on platforms I’d be willing to risk it on that one.
I want to see the bus simulator combined with the viaduct collapse simulation. THAT would be a game worth buying ; )
Maybe there could be a game where you’re controlling all the signal operations in the DSTT. Then someone could write a book remotely like the transit-sci-fi version of Ender’s Game, and we later find out the people playing the DSTT game are actually operating the DSTT!
A bunch of kids operating it would explain the signal problems…
question about portlands max light rail green and yellow line.
the southbound green and yellow line going southbound ends at 5th ave and montgomery and then goes out of service to loop back around north and enter service on 4th and montgomery. why is this? how far south does the train go before looping west?
also about type 4 rolling stock.
why did they put a controlling cab only on one side of the train? types 1, 2, and 3 have them at both ends.
My understanding is since MAX trains always operate in coupled pairs Tri-Met felt they would rather have extra seating than have the space taken up by a cab.
they don’t seem to be permanently coupled as far as i could tell. just seems like it would add a lot more versatility to have controls at both ends so you don’t have to worry about wying or always being coupled to another car if some problem occurred. saves money in the manufacture process and more seating space though.
do they ever run type 4’s with any older units?
They’re not permanently coupled, but I think that’s more for maintenance than anything – existing maintenance bays are only one car long.
The only reason to couple different types of trains is when you need an old high-floor car to be coupled with an ADA accessible car. I don’t think they’d run the Type 4 cars with anything else. Nor would it matter as long as they’re pointing the right way!
-Type 4’s are only run with other Type 4’s, because they never run trains longer than two cars, but they need to be able to operate in both directions.
-They are not permanently coupled, but as far as I know, they leave them coupled almost all the time.
-All Type 1 (the only high-floor cars) are always run with a Type 2 or 3 car, because there are now platforms that don’t have mini-high platforms for wheelchairs, and they need to be wheelchair accessible.
but if needed a type 1 and type 4 could be coupled and run in service, correct?
My understanding is that the Type 4s also have a small (locked) control panel at the end opposite the cab.
oh ok that makes a ton of sense. that way is something happened you wouldn’t need to have a man on the point calling out to the operator on the control end.
Even Canada Line is like that – there’s a little control panel and what looks like a fold-out seat.
The Type 4 vehicles have a operators panel that one could move the train within the yard and couple up to another vehicle. In this mode, it is only allowed 5mph.
With the cab removed, it adds another 8 seats to the trains, for 16 additional passengers sitting and 30ish standing. Since the Type 4’s only operate with 2 cars, they keep them together.
Type 4’s can not be coupled to any other rolling stock due to a different coupler assembly and connections. They are unable to be moved together dead in consist as well.
Type 1-3 can be ran together with no issues. I personally would rather see the Type 4’s together since they are the modern, sleek version of the new revamping TriMet.
The cars are scattered all throughout the system instead of just on the Green line.
MAX turns around a few blocks past that station, at Jackson.
I think I remember seeing that there’s another station planned before the turnaround, but I’m not sure…
3 loop tracks. looks like they can/do store trains there then?
They likely do; they had a similar setup at the previous terminal of the Yellow Line.
The 3 loop tracks are for the future Orange line to Milwakie, Oregon. 1 of the 3 tracks will be a through track while the other 2 will remain a holding/staging yard for the Yellow/Green lines.
another max question. right next to union station, just after coming off the bridge is a stub track that doesn’t seem long enough for layups. is it used just for turning trains?
I think it could be for future expansion through Union Station. I’ve heard a lot about that in the last few days.
This will be a future layover space for the Orange Line trains and out of service/broke down trains for the Yellow/Green/Orange lines.
This won’t be for Union Station lead as it would use a different configuration.
thanks. i can’t believe i didn’t check there first. one of my favorite sites.
East Base had boxes of the NEW SNOW ROUTE BOOKLETS yesterday. So expect to start seeing them on buses soon. They are about the size of the CT or ST booklets and have snow routes for every route in the system(although some routes don’t really have a snow route, it’s just regualr route.) All Metro routes except for School Routes(check with schools those routes) and also shown is Metro Operated ST routes.
Also, the emergency service network is has maps for each region of the county for when service is cut down to 70 routes(Many of these 70 routes will be shortened or shuttles, but some of these routes will be extented to cover missed service on other routes. For example: 121,122,131,132 will not run at all, so the 166 will be extended from Highline CC to Burien TC via 1st Ave S to cover missed service. Also in W Seattle, only routes running will be 54,120,128. So 54,120 will travel via 1st Av S and lower level Spokane St to cover missed service of 21,22,56,57. 128 will be extened from Admiral District down to Alki to cover suspension of rt 56. So that was just a few examples)
So look for booklets on the bus….in addition, online route maps have been updated to show snow routes. Hopefully this will help if we get snow this year.
This reminds me of a question I’ve had since last December. How well will Link behave in snow conditions similar to what we had last year?
Should be fine for typical Seattle winters. They are adding heaters to ensure switches function properly in the advent of an ice storm like we saw last December.
WSDOT has a proposal to begin construction on the 520 freeway east of the lake, even before the bridge is funded. The most prominent features are to move the HOV lanes to the center, built center stations at 76th (Evergreen Pt) and 92nd (Yarrow Pt), redo the Bellevue Way interchange, and add an HOV ramp at 108th (one direction only). The project website is here:
It hasn’t received much coverage, I guess because it is less interesting and less controversial than the bridge itself and the Montlake interchange. But it seems underdesigned for transit, especially around Overlake.
The new HOV ramps at 108th Ave NE are designed for 255/6 and 540 service, and are one way only. There would be more connectivity if the project also included ramps going to the east so that buses like 545 and new 542 could offer connections here. An alternative to a second set of ramps would be a freeway station.
The design does not address the transit needs at NE 40th/Overlake Transit Center. The 545 & 542 are supposed to cross from the center HOV lane to the exit ramp lane. There should either be a center roadway station at NE 40th St, or else an HOV center ramp. The proposed design makes the HOV lane ineffective for bus transit headed toward Redmond past about 148th and does nothing to address the 10 minute delay to serve the Overlake transit center westbound. Even after Link the 545 & 542 will be the main routes from Redmond and Overlake to Seattle and U-District.
There is also a missed opportunity to add a freeway stop at 148th Ave NE – which could serve apartments and office buildings with a half mile to the north, retail to the south, and connections to the 253, which will be a RapidRide route.
Sounds Great. The sooner the 545’s and other coaches don’t have to weave between merging traffic between 124th Ave and 84th Ave on W/B 520 the better.
Although, I don’t believe merging a couple lanes to get on or off at Overlake is a big deal. It would be nice but I don’t think it is a priority. I think just deleting the OVTC routing to stay on the W/B freeway stop would speed up the ride by 8-10min easiler, but many Microsoft people on here disagreed last time I brought that up, which they have a point. Plus if you add a median stop at NE 40th, then you can’t serve NE 51st unless you add a median stop there too because of the collector-distributor lane the 545,232,268 and soon to be 542,566 use.
Here’s the way I see it, E/B 545 makes the merge from new center HOV lane to right lane for NE 40th. Then uses collector-distributor lane to NE 51st. It then dumps you back on the freeway in right lane to get off at W Lk Sammamish. I say, that is fine because 545 only had to marge across 3 lanes once……maybe WSDOT can add a Transit Lane on the right shoulder from NE51st to W Lk Samm. That would be great during the PM rush. Going W/B 545’s never have any traffic entering 520 at W Lk Samm to NE 51st. Then continue up to NE 40th. After NE 40th, the 545 merges one time over to the center HOV lane and then up the the bridge. So I don’t believe a median stop is needed in Ovelake.
I do like the idea of a 148th freeway station though, for a transfer point with Rapid Ride. Since NE 40th and 148th Ave are so close I think added stops to the existing on/off ramps at 148th would be fine. If they could add a Transit Lane up to the traffic light on both East and Westbound off ramps, then construct a bus lane that continues across to a stop similar to Canyon Parks’s S/B station. It think it may add maybe 1-2 minutes in each direction, but I believe would be a popular tranfer point with Rapid Ride.
Okay…Correction to my Post just above!
I want to take back what I said about having a 148th Ave freeway stop to connect to Rapid Ride. I know the B Line will follow the 253 for the most part, but I forgot that rather than using NE 24th to 148th, Rapid Ride will use NE40th. So there won’t be any need for a 148th freeway stop connection with 520 bus service, because it will be done at Overlake TC or a stop just west of SR 520 on NE 40th, closer to the W/B freeway stop.
But I still don’t believe median stops at Overlake TC is needed.
I wonder if they include a trolley bus in the game?
Get too far from the wire and … Oops, dewired
Don’t set up for a switch just so, and Crap, dewired
Go through special work too fast, and yeh, you got it.
Back up with the keipe poles, and Bang, you broke em.
No, because it’s set in New York. New York doesn’t have trolleybuses.
Talk to a passenger to answer their question and forget that your override switch is set to “straight” and go through a switch you need to turn left on…
Speaking of simulators, my Virtual Link light rail project hasn’t made any progress in months. I want this to be the most accurate representation of the real thing as possible.
Any resources or information that can help me is greatly appreciated!
You need to give it a function where you’re the operator and you’re trying to say something to the passengers and then when you say it it plays back the muffled scratching sounds they actually heard.
I’m having trouble getting my routes to work. I’m using openBVE and when I try to operate the train, the screen is black.
I’m not sure what’s happening there and I’m no better at getting it to work than you. You should try the OpenBVE forums.
You could have a feature where you can call security if someone is taking pictures in the train or at a station.
hahaha.
would that also automatically site “but this is a post 9/11 world!” or would that be a separate feature?
So I was knocking around on Wikipedia and Google and realized there is a pretty big gap in the info when it comes to Seattle’s Past and Present Streetcar Network.
While there are pages on wiki for the Waterfront Streetcar, SLUT, and even proposed First Hill Streetcar there no overarching page for the network as a whole. ‘Seattle Streetcar’ redirects to the SLUT page which at the bottom has a little five line blurb about the enlarged network, but that is it.
There is some info out there, but it is mostly spread out through multiple blogs and not easily accessible. The more info out there and the easier it is to get to (Wikipedia not only being one of the first places people search, it is also heavily weighted on Google searches) the better. If we want people to push transit we need to inform them what they are pushing for and to get them excited.
So thought maybe some people here would be interested in building a Seattle Streetcar page, I think it would be a worthwhile project. Unfortunately I am not only new to the Seattle Transit world (although trying to educate as fast a possible) but am not that good with computers or Wikipedia. I’ll do what I can, and am willing to learn, but it seems like a pretty large project so would need a group effort. Anyone feel like trying to get something going?
I don’t know, it just seems that alot of people here got alot of info and it’d be nice to consolidate some that knowledge in one place. Plus it’d be good advertisements for the various transit blogs (including this one :)) that would be cited as references.
Thoughts, Comments, Suggestions?
I created the First Hill Streetcar page on Wikipedia for the very same reason. I made substantial edits to the ORCA card page. A few other people here also edit the local area transit pages on Wikipedia.
I could get a page up real quick when I get home.
I would cite STB as a source only if it was original reporting that has been fact-checked. Otherwise, I use the original news article or try to find primary sources. Wikipedia has guidelines on what sources are acceptable and blogs are usually not one of them. And you’re not supposed to use Wikipedia to promote your website.
Promotion would only be a side benefit, not the reason. The reason would be to put the info out there, and hopefully get people on our side.
Okay registered a wiki account. Looked at getting a start on the page, but the six pages of questions that went with the wizard did a good job of scaring me off. Since you said you have experience with wiki I’ll let you start it… ;)
I’ve seen good written descriptions – I think on HistoryLink – and photos and maps from UW archives. Not a lot of maps, though… Partly because I’m guessing that network maps for transit riders came a long time after the demand for them originated.
I can create maps from scratch. Actually, that is preferred to using copyrighted material that’s not released under a free license.
I think laying out the historic network would be a good visual for what we once had, and what we could have again.
Why would you want streetcars all over? I just don’t understand it. Trolley buses have most the advantages of streetcars (a visual commitment by the transit system that service will be here) but at half the cost. Everyone is expecting Pearl Districts to pop up where ever street car tracks tread. They’re going to be disappointed.
The Pearl was a unique opportunity: a bunch of completely abandoned industrial land within a reasonable walking distance of downtown Portland was opened for development during the booming late 1990’s and the real estate speculation frenzy of the early part of this decade. It’s been the roaring success it is partly because of the streetcar, but it’s certainly not the most important factor.
The Broadway Bridge/MLK eastside line will bring streetcar dreamers crashing back to earth. The streetcar won’t improve accessibility to the MLK corridor one whit, except for riders who want to go slumming from the Pearl District to the racy bars between MLK and the river. It’ll be faster to get downtown to walk across a bridge than to wander around the South Waterfront or through the Pearl on the streetcar.
Plus it doesn’t even take a rider to the CBD core; it runs along the west side.
Aren’t some of the old maps either public because they were printed by the government or so old that they can be reprinted like Jane Eyre books?
The best maps I’ve seen online have been here at STB. I think Oran made them. I saved them as .jpg files so I can reference them quickly at home. If anybody gets better information, it seems to me that Oran would be the best person to give it to.
When you’ve got your map, explore your city. Try to spot the differences in historical buildings where the trolleys ran and didn’t run. There are many visual delights to be found here.
I’m living out of town now so it’s not so easy for me, but lately I’ve been thinking that the provision of garages for houses would be a clue about how and when the neighborhood developed. We’ve heard quite a bit about how Seattle was built as a streetcar suburb, so it would be interesting to see where and to what extent that was true. Don’t forget the interurban lines north and south which are typically not shown on a map of Seattle streetcars.
Here’s a map I like that overlays the historic streetcar lines with the modern urban villages in Seattle.
Too bad it’s not in a Creative Commons license. Therefore it can’t be used on Wikipedia. It isn’t too had to recreate, though.
Alright, I’m making one now, as a page called the “Seattle Streetcar Network.” Once I finish this first draft it would be great if people could put in images, an infobox, and more info.
I loved Train Simulator. I’ve had so many wrecks in Japan.
My favorite simulation was the little two-car trip in southern Japan.
does anyone know anything about the central link light rail signaling?
today while on the southbound westlake platform i noticed that on the north end of the northbound platform there was a signal against the right wall that displayed green or red and then another light that appeared to be just above the left edge of the wall that was either white or yellow.
it seemed that when trains went through the green went to red and the white went to yellow however when buses went by only the green went to red and the other signal stayed the same. i assume the white/yellow signal controls train movement. how do train operators know whether or not they will diverge to the other stub track?
this is an awesome document. thanks. been looking over it since you posted it.
anyone know how many round trips a light rail operator makes in a shift? 8 hour shift i assume. they start, take a lunch break and end at the maintenance facility?
I agree–this is an awesome document. But it does have some flaws; it says Link will operate at 6-min headways and it alludes to a plan to have every other train terminate at Rainier Beach. That makes sense though, because it’s from 2008. Does anyone know if there’s a newer version available?
You’d probably have to file another public records request with Sound Transit to get it.
Agreed, best description of the system I’ve seen. Looks like 84 min turnaround when Airport Stn opens, so about 5.7 laps per shift, less some start/stop daily functions, so 5 RT’s a shift seems right.
Speaking of Airport Link, the document show 6 min. peak hour headways. Will the 7.5 min. spacing be increased for next year?
Also, 2010 ridership was projected to be 32,600 per day, or about twice the current level of 16,100 per day (http://www.bettertransport.info/pitf/Linkpassengercount.htm).
That jump in ridership seems very …. ambitious.
Yes, yellow/white (white is actually “Lunar”) for Trains, green/red are bus signals. Trains signals may look like just a light from far away, but are actually a rectangle shape. Vertical Lunar (White) is proceed, Yellow Horizontal is stop. And at a switch or crossover, it will be a diagonal bar.
To answer your question, I believe the crossover signal is up at the Stub Tunnel, not the signal at Westlake Station.
How Signals Work:
When the next segment in the tunnel is clear(Segment is either a station or the tube between stations.) Signals will be Lunar & Green, meaning train or bus can enter. Remember no more than one train per segment, and no train or bus together in one segment, unless directed by Link Control or Supervisor. More than one bus okay in same segment.
When a train is in the next segment, Signals will be Yellow for train and Red for Bus, because no one can proceed until train ahead clears.
When a bus is in the next segment, Signals will be Yellow for train, but green for buses. Bus can follow eachother into same segment, but a train will hold until bus clears.
ahh ok, i was too far away to see the specifics. thats pretty cool that a diverging is diagonal, makes it pretty straight forward.
here on bnsf territory the bottom aspect will be yellow to indicate diverging (except in the case of diverging clear which is red over green or diverging approach medium which is red over a blinking yellow).
makes it a little complicated sharing the tunnel with buses and trains and the limitations of no trains and tunnels in the station but they seem to work it out well with their signaling system.
thanks for the info.
Does anyone know if the parking lot at the Tukwila Link station tends to fill up on Saturdays? I was thinking of taking some of my kids on the Central Link into Seattle on a Saturday. None of us have yet ridden it.
Nope. Not even on game days. You should take the ride. The kids will dig it. We do it all the time and even took an entire youth baseball team into town on it for one of the kid’s birthdays.
Do park at Tukwila and come on downtown with your family – lots to do in the city at the Holidays!
Hey, thanks Alex, and everyone else that is working on The Seattle Streetcar Network wikipage.
I posted this in the discussion section of the wiki, but am also posting it here since I was the first to open the discussion page and people might not know to go check on it.
Okay, I added the Waterfront Streetcar, as it was the first Streetcar, and may come back in some form or other in the future.
Would this map be of any use? Being on a government website from a government organization, is it not public domain (I really don’t know, but I would assume so)?
Also would Conlin’s statements to The Stranger be of any use?
• Building Light Rail to West Seattle and a Streetcar to Ballard
“I would like to see us extend the South Lake Union Streetcar over to Fremont and over to Ballard,” Conlin said. He envisions using the same sort of traffic-signal preemption light rail uses on Martin Luther King Jr. Way South to allow a streetcar to move quickly through traffic. But that’s only a stopgap until we can afford to build a Ballard-bound light-rail line, he said. In the meantime, Conlin thinks the city can build a light-rail line to West Seattle within a few years. “I think that that one is relatively easy from a logistic standpoint,” he said. “We have to come up with the money, but I don’t think it’s terribly expensive.” A member of the finance committee of Sound Transit, Conlin thinks the voters would approve “a financing plan that makes sense” to pay for the project. He proposes a small utility hike, buy-in from businesses closest to the line, and other tax increases.
Any word about whether the “next train” signs will be functioning in advance of Airport Link’s opening on the 19th? Will they even be working ON the 19th?
you mean at the airport station? its an island platform.
No, I mean the announcements on the electronic platform signs that say how many minutes until the next train arrives.
Coming this Christmas to XBox and PS3.
Since this is an open thread…
The Downtown transit tunnel is really annoying me lately. I’ve always used it to zip back and forth through downtown in a minimum amount of time. I hate that you have to pay for Link through it, but when I’m really in a hurry would be willing to pay. The problem is, you have to swipe for Orca upstairs – before you know if a bus or Link will be waiting downstairs. That means that if you’re in a hurry and don’t care if it’s a bus or Link you have to pay Sound Transit even if you end up taking a Metro bus. This has happened to me several times.
That’s my rant. Now my question. Are they really enforcing payment in the tunnel? I’ve paid enough for Link rides while getting bus rides that I’m considering not paying once or twice and fighting the ticket if I get one.
I’ve seen fare enforcement in the tunnel. Obviously it’s the law, but enforcing it in the tunnel seems to me like kind of a cheap move by Sound Transit.
I would say 90% of the enforcement I’ve seen is between Stadium and Beacon Hill stations – the center platforms there make it easy for the officers to transfer going back and forth, and they go from one car to the other at SoDo.
Ironically, Portland will move to a policy of having trains be free in the city center, while you’ll have to pay for buses. Matt the Engineer needs to learn about the 2nd/4th couplet?
The 2nd/4th couplet? Is that a poetry thing?
Yeah orca reader upstairs is most annoying thing ever. Will cause a lot of missed revenue too. Honestly I’m not willing to miss a train just because some engineer or exec decided not to put link orca reader on platform. I’ve already taken my chances several times because it’s so dumb. For me, I often arrive to westlake via bus to take Link from the same platform. It’s ridiculous to go upstairs. I realize what the law is but yeah I’m not going to let their design flaw slow me down as much a to have to wait for the next train when there is one right there. I’ve even used te excuse to the transit supervise of “sorry I couldn’t find the reader on the platform to try to get my point across. Anyway, enough whining… I hope they fix that though cuz it’s really lame.
There is a reader on the Westlake southbound platform by Bay D, there’re also readers on the International District platforms.
I wouldn’t put readers on the platform level, it can get too crowded. That’s what the mezzanine level is designed for. The Pioneer Square ORCA readers are placed out of the way. It’s just awkward. They should’ve placed the readers as if they were turnstiles not in a dead end corner.
At Westlake, there’s an Orca reader on the southbound platform
Oh sweet! I don’t think there was originally or it must not have been enabled because this was a topic of discussion at link opening. Glad to know there is now; I’ll be sure to look for it and use it!
If you have a pass, do you have to tap out? As long as your pass covers the maximum fare, it shouldn’t matter.
Once I saw fares being enforced in the tunnel, but the guy announced that it was just “education” and that he wasn’t actually giving out tickets because it’s the RFA for buses. This was back in July.
I’m still really annoyed there aren’t ORCA readers on the Northbound platform at Westlake. I know the theory is people will transfer as soon as possible but that doesn’t seem to be the way people are really using the tunnel. Given that there will be anywhere from 6 to 10 years of joint bus-rail operation there really needs to be at least one reader on each platform for transfers or people shuttling between a station or two.
I also agree with Oran that the readers in both Pioneer Square and University Street are poorly placed. I guess the idea is to put a reader near each entrance, but I prefer placement at the top of the escalators like in Westlake and International District. I suppose it means they only need 3 readers for Pioneer Square and University Street.
I’ve thought that the ORCA readers being on the mezzanine is the dumbest idea ever from the first time I heard about it.
I assume there is some technical problem with having more on the platforms, but even if so it should be worked around as soon as possible.
If you could put all the ticket machines and ORCA readers on the platform without impacts on circulation, then why waste money building mezzanines?
The mezzanines facilitate passenger circulation in high-volume stations. You don’t want people to wade through a crowded platform to get to a reader.
The problem is the placement of the readers on the mezzanine. Just put them next to the stairs, escalators, and elevators leading to the platform, or at exits/entrances.
Ticket machines need to be on the mezzanine because they generate crowds, but people just tap their ORCAs for a half-second, so it’s okay to have them on the platform. They should have three or four on every platform in the tunnel.
Yeah why not just put card readers in both places? Just put readers everywhere and let natural human patterns take over. I see the benefit of having readers on the mezanine, but I don’t foresee link crowds ever getting to that level of crowdedness outside of special events for at least 10 or 20 years, at which time if platform scanners become a problem they can be removed. If I forget to scan on the mezzanine, I’d rather wade through a crowd than walk back up on the mezzanine. Are these things really that expensive??
What exactly would happen if you forget to tap out for Link? Would you get charged for the longest potential trip you could have taken?
@Jer: That’s correct
What was the reason they decided not to build the tunnel with center platforms (like the Bellevue and Federal Way Transit Centers, not to mention others)? It would make transferring from northbound to eastbound service, or westbound to southbound much easier. They might not even need a mezzanine.
Archie,
One reason not to go crazy with the readers is each additional reader costs Sound Transit money. I’d guess between buying the reader and installing it the marginal cost is likely at least $10,000 each. In addition running the wiring in locations in some stations may be difficult without resorting to surface conduit. Remember the DSTT stations are basically big concrete boxes underground so access to the other side of a wall is sort of limited.
They wanted the center lane for buses to pass each other. Center platform means adding another lane to the width of the station, increasing costs and impacts to nearby buildings.
How did the Bredas pass each other when they were on the wire? And now, passing is forbidden…
They had parallel wire strung over the passing lane with switches at either end. If an operator foresaw the need to pass he would switch to the passing wire while entering the station. If the operator hadn’t switched to the passing wire and needed to pass, say for passing a bus with a stuck wheelchair ramp, he would have to get out of the bus and manually move the poles over to the passing wire. Buses used to pass pretty often in the tunnel, I don’t know why it’s forbidden now. Maybe because of the new signaling system for operating with trains?
I had a similar problem the first (and thus far only) time I used Link to get to the airport. I didn’t see the ORCA readers when I entered Westlake Station from the street, so despite having a valid transfer fare from Metro on my card, I wound up paying full-price for a Link ticket with my e-purse at a TVM. (I knew from STB that there were no ORCA readers on the platform level so I had to take care of my ticket/transfer upstairs, and the only thing I saw when I came in was the TVMs.)
Just as I got down to the platform, a 194 arrived, and I knew that was probably my best option, but wasn’t about to pay a third time. It was only a few minutes later that I saw the small print on the Link ticket that it was a valid transfer to Metro, and I could’ve used it after all.
Combined with getting to the airport over 20 minutes later than if I’d taken that 194, the transfer/fare stuff really soured me on Link to the airport. Oran says there are 10 ORCA readers in Westlake Station, but I didn’t see a single one when I was in a hurry that day. At the very least it seems obvious to me that there should be a reader right by the TVMs.
Reading the above comments, I suppose I should say that I had understood from STB that there were no readers on the platform at that station. Regardless, expecting users to remember which stations in which directions have platform readers is ridiculous. All stations should have readers & TVMs in the same, logical locations: at entrances/exits, on the platform, in both directions.
With big signs over them, so that you can still find them in a crowd of people.
Should, yes. But Metro refused to do it for any stations other than Westlake SB and ID.
Why would Metro refuse to install more readers? Besides I thought Sound Transit owned/controlled the DSTT now?
Does Metro still own the DSTT?
Here’s a google cached page that explains part of it (original seems to have been lost with the domain name change):
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:OvNTBFmMr7kJ:www.metrokc.gov/MKCC/news/2002/0602/tunnel_ops.htm+downtown+seattle+transit+tunnel+ownership&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
As far as I can tell, the DSTT was built by Metro but largely or entirely with City of Seattle money because it was prior to Metro becoming entirely a County run agency. What’s unclear is what if any compensation went to the City for this. Currently ST is paying Metro for debt service on the tunnel and ST paid for all the modifications and upgrades required for Link (more than the original cost of the tunnel). Metro remains in control of operations in the tunnel. At some point (maybe now?) ownership is by ST.
I guess to be clear, the original financing was through City of Seattle but King County via Metro has been paying the bills since the change in Metro. As with most publicly financed projects using bonds, The lions share of the payment occurs long after construction is completed. Or, like the “new” roof for the Kingdome, after destruction is completed :=
The ORCA readers in Westlake are housed in yellow enclosures on yellow poles or on the wall. They are right at the top of the stairs and escalators, and next to the elevators leading to the platform.
Yeah, there are no obvious signs in the tunnel stations that point to ticket machines. And the station maps don’t have them either.
The readers are just dumbly placed, period. The mezzanine ones should be right at the top of the escalators, not off to the side like they are at 5th & Westlake. It’s convenient enough for me to tap the card as I’m walking to the escalator, but if I were buying a card from the TVM, I’d have to walk over to the side wall to tap it, then back to the escalator. The only reason I can think of for this is to avoid running cables on the floor, but I’m sure they could bring them down from the ceiling if they had to.
All stations should have readers on the platforms, at least as long as there are buses in the tunnel. Some people want to take the first vehicle that comes, and others may change their mind on their destination after they get to the platform. Some bus lines follow the train all the way to SODO, so it’s not only intra-tunnel routes where this matters.
I’ve never seen fare enforcers in the tunnel, but I’ve seen lots between SoDo and Beacon Hill. I’ve also seen plenty of people who didn’t realize that link was not free in the tunnel.
Maybe more people would realize it if they got a sound engineer to make the recorded announcement about Link requiring proof of payment more intelligible. In Pioneer Square Station all you hear is “Mrhphl mrhphl Link LIGHT rail. Tickets mrhprhl mhrphl station mezzanine mhrphl.”
Ha ha, the emphasis on “light” makes her sound funny. And it sounds like that on the other announcements.
Hey, that’s the same announcement they play when there’s a major service disruption… at least your transcription of lit looks about like the one I heard.
Oh come on, since you can make out a couple of words, Sound Transit clearly is failing to adopt the state of the art in transit public address systems. A good transit public address system will render any announcement no matter how clearly spoken as a burst of static and other random noise. Clearly we have a long ways to go before we are up to NYC subway standards.
Winner, winner! Funniest comment in a long while.
Reminds me of an SNL sketch…
I’ve seen plenty of people who didn’t realize Link wasn’t free in general… I heard someone say “you can just take the monorail [to Rainier Valley], it’s free.”
That is why we issue tickets. For many, that’s really the only way.
Fare enforcement signage is much better in the Valley now. Instead of itsy bitsy plaques, they have large overhang signs where the ORCA readers are now. At least that was the case at Othello. It could be much better in the DSTT though. All tunnel ORCA readers should be right at the top of the stairs/escalators, with either a yellow line painted or a sign on top. At least it needs to get that clear when the buses are booted.
Yeah the dual-operations is the reason for all the confusion downtown.
I wish the platforms weren’t fare-paid zones. I want a friend to be able to hang out with me while I wait for the train, or to wait for me on the platform. Needing to pay to be on the platform eliminates the tragedy from departures and takes the romance out of arrivals.
I don’t think they’re ticketing anyone on platforms I’d be willing to risk it on that one.
I want to see the bus simulator combined with the viaduct collapse simulation. THAT would be a game worth buying ; )
-Alex
This game has been out since October.
Here’s another one that lacks the same detail and lacks cab view.
Maybe there could be a game where you’re controlling all the signal operations in the DSTT. Then someone could write a book remotely like the transit-sci-fi version of Ender’s Game, and we later find out the people playing the DSTT game are actually operating the DSTT!
A bunch of kids operating it would explain the signal problems…
question about portlands max light rail green and yellow line.
the southbound green and yellow line going southbound ends at 5th ave and montgomery and then goes out of service to loop back around north and enter service on 4th and montgomery. why is this? how far south does the train go before looping west?
also about type 4 rolling stock.
why did they put a controlling cab only on one side of the train? types 1, 2, and 3 have them at both ends.
My understanding is since MAX trains always operate in coupled pairs Tri-Met felt they would rather have extra seating than have the space taken up by a cab.
they don’t seem to be permanently coupled as far as i could tell. just seems like it would add a lot more versatility to have controls at both ends so you don’t have to worry about wying or always being coupled to another car if some problem occurred. saves money in the manufacture process and more seating space though.
do they ever run type 4’s with any older units?
They’re not permanently coupled, but I think that’s more for maintenance than anything – existing maintenance bays are only one car long.
The only reason to couple different types of trains is when you need an old high-floor car to be coupled with an ADA accessible car. I don’t think they’d run the Type 4 cars with anything else. Nor would it matter as long as they’re pointing the right way!
-Type 4’s are only run with other Type 4’s, because they never run trains longer than two cars, but they need to be able to operate in both directions.
-They are not permanently coupled, but as far as I know, they leave them coupled almost all the time.
-All Type 1 (the only high-floor cars) are always run with a Type 2 or 3 car, because there are now platforms that don’t have mini-high platforms for wheelchairs, and they need to be wheelchair accessible.
but if needed a type 1 and type 4 could be coupled and run in service, correct?
My understanding is that the Type 4s also have a small (locked) control panel at the end opposite the cab.
oh ok that makes a ton of sense. that way is something happened you wouldn’t need to have a man on the point calling out to the operator on the control end.
Even Canada Line is like that – there’s a little control panel and what looks like a fold-out seat.
The Type 4 vehicles have a operators panel that one could move the train within the yard and couple up to another vehicle. In this mode, it is only allowed 5mph.
With the cab removed, it adds another 8 seats to the trains, for 16 additional passengers sitting and 30ish standing. Since the Type 4’s only operate with 2 cars, they keep them together.
Type 4’s can not be coupled to any other rolling stock due to a different coupler assembly and connections. They are unable to be moved together dead in consist as well.
Type 1-3 can be ran together with no issues. I personally would rather see the Type 4’s together since they are the modern, sleek version of the new revamping TriMet.
The cars are scattered all throughout the system instead of just on the Green line.
MAX turns around a few blocks past that station, at Jackson.
I think I remember seeing that there’s another station planned before the turnaround, but I’m not sure…
3 loop tracks. looks like they can/do store trains there then?
They likely do; they had a similar setup at the previous terminal of the Yellow Line.
The 3 loop tracks are for the future Orange line to Milwakie, Oregon. 1 of the 3 tracks will be a through track while the other 2 will remain a holding/staging yard for the Yellow/Green lines.
another max question. right next to union station, just after coming off the bridge is a stub track that doesn’t seem long enough for layups. is it used just for turning trains?
I think it could be for future expansion through Union Station. I’ve heard a lot about that in the last few days.
This will be a future layover space for the Orange Line trains and out of service/broke down trains for the Yellow/Green/Orange lines.
This won’t be for Union Station lead as it would use a different configuration.
anyone have a track diagram for max?
http://world.nycsubway.org/us/portland/max-trackmap.html
But without Green line and transit mall tracks.
thanks. i can’t believe i didn’t check there first. one of my favorite sites.
East Base had boxes of the NEW SNOW ROUTE BOOKLETS yesterday. So expect to start seeing them on buses soon. They are about the size of the CT or ST booklets and have snow routes for every route in the system(although some routes don’t really have a snow route, it’s just regualr route.) All Metro routes except for School Routes(check with schools those routes) and also shown is Metro Operated ST routes.
Also, the emergency service network is has maps for each region of the county for when service is cut down to 70 routes(Many of these 70 routes will be shortened or shuttles, but some of these routes will be extented to cover missed service on other routes. For example: 121,122,131,132 will not run at all, so the 166 will be extended from Highline CC to Burien TC via 1st Ave S to cover missed service. Also in W Seattle, only routes running will be 54,120,128. So 54,120 will travel via 1st Av S and lower level Spokane St to cover missed service of 21,22,56,57. 128 will be extened from Admiral District down to Alki to cover suspension of rt 56. So that was just a few examples)
So look for booklets on the bus….in addition, online route maps have been updated to show snow routes. Hopefully this will help if we get snow this year.
This reminds me of a question I’ve had since last December. How well will Link behave in snow conditions similar to what we had last year?
Should be fine for typical Seattle winters. They are adding heaters to ensure switches function properly in the advent of an ice storm like we saw last December.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/traffic/2010213280_webtransitheat06m.html
WSDOT has a proposal to begin construction on the 520 freeway east of the lake, even before the bridge is funded. The most prominent features are to move the HOV lanes to the center, built center stations at 76th (Evergreen Pt) and 92nd (Yarrow Pt), redo the Bellevue Way interchange, and add an HOV ramp at 108th (one direction only). The project website is here:
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/SR520Bridge/eastproject.htm
It hasn’t received much coverage, I guess because it is less interesting and less controversial than the bridge itself and the Montlake interchange. But it seems underdesigned for transit, especially around Overlake.
The new HOV ramps at 108th Ave NE are designed for 255/6 and 540 service, and are one way only. There would be more connectivity if the project also included ramps going to the east so that buses like 545 and new 542 could offer connections here. An alternative to a second set of ramps would be a freeway station.
The design does not address the transit needs at NE 40th/Overlake Transit Center. The 545 & 542 are supposed to cross from the center HOV lane to the exit ramp lane. There should either be a center roadway station at NE 40th St, or else an HOV center ramp. The proposed design makes the HOV lane ineffective for bus transit headed toward Redmond past about 148th and does nothing to address the 10 minute delay to serve the Overlake transit center westbound. Even after Link the 545 & 542 will be the main routes from Redmond and Overlake to Seattle and U-District.
There is also a missed opportunity to add a freeway stop at 148th Ave NE – which could serve apartments and office buildings with a half mile to the north, retail to the south, and connections to the 253, which will be a RapidRide route.
Sounds Great. The sooner the 545’s and other coaches don’t have to weave between merging traffic between 124th Ave and 84th Ave on W/B 520 the better.
Although, I don’t believe merging a couple lanes to get on or off at Overlake is a big deal. It would be nice but I don’t think it is a priority. I think just deleting the OVTC routing to stay on the W/B freeway stop would speed up the ride by 8-10min easiler, but many Microsoft people on here disagreed last time I brought that up, which they have a point. Plus if you add a median stop at NE 40th, then you can’t serve NE 51st unless you add a median stop there too because of the collector-distributor lane the 545,232,268 and soon to be 542,566 use.
Here’s the way I see it, E/B 545 makes the merge from new center HOV lane to right lane for NE 40th. Then uses collector-distributor lane to NE 51st. It then dumps you back on the freeway in right lane to get off at W Lk Sammamish. I say, that is fine because 545 only had to marge across 3 lanes once……maybe WSDOT can add a Transit Lane on the right shoulder from NE51st to W Lk Samm. That would be great during the PM rush. Going W/B 545’s never have any traffic entering 520 at W Lk Samm to NE 51st. Then continue up to NE 40th. After NE 40th, the 545 merges one time over to the center HOV lane and then up the the bridge. So I don’t believe a median stop is needed in Ovelake.
I do like the idea of a 148th freeway station though, for a transfer point with Rapid Ride. Since NE 40th and 148th Ave are so close I think added stops to the existing on/off ramps at 148th would be fine. If they could add a Transit Lane up to the traffic light on both East and Westbound off ramps, then construct a bus lane that continues across to a stop similar to Canyon Parks’s S/B station. It think it may add maybe 1-2 minutes in each direction, but I believe would be a popular tranfer point with Rapid Ride.
Okay…Correction to my Post just above!
I want to take back what I said about having a 148th Ave freeway stop to connect to Rapid Ride. I know the B Line will follow the 253 for the most part, but I forgot that rather than using NE 24th to 148th, Rapid Ride will use NE40th. So there won’t be any need for a 148th freeway stop connection with 520 bus service, because it will be done at Overlake TC or a stop just west of SR 520 on NE 40th, closer to the W/B freeway stop.
But I still don’t believe median stops at Overlake TC is needed.
I wonder if they include a trolley bus in the game?
Get too far from the wire and … Oops, dewired
Don’t set up for a switch just so, and Crap, dewired
Go through special work too fast, and yeh, you got it.
Back up with the keipe poles, and Bang, you broke em.
No, because it’s set in New York. New York doesn’t have trolleybuses.
Talk to a passenger to answer their question and forget that your override switch is set to “straight” and go through a switch you need to turn left on…
Speaking of simulators, my Virtual Link light rail project hasn’t made any progress in months. I want this to be the most accurate representation of the real thing as possible.
Any resources or information that can help me is greatly appreciated!
You need to give it a function where you’re the operator and you’re trying to say something to the passengers and then when you say it it plays back the muffled scratching sounds they actually heard.
I’m having trouble getting my routes to work. I’m using openBVE and when I try to operate the train, the screen is black.
I’m not sure what’s happening there and I’m no better at getting it to work than you. You should try the OpenBVE forums.
You could have a feature where you can call security if someone is taking pictures in the train or at a station.
hahaha.
would that also automatically site “but this is a post 9/11 world!” or would that be a separate feature?
So I was knocking around on Wikipedia and Google and realized there is a pretty big gap in the info when it comes to Seattle’s Past and Present Streetcar Network.
While there are pages on wiki for the Waterfront Streetcar, SLUT, and even proposed First Hill Streetcar there no overarching page for the network as a whole. ‘Seattle Streetcar’ redirects to the SLUT page which at the bottom has a little five line blurb about the enlarged network, but that is it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Streetcar
Even at the Seattle Streetcar website, it is pretty much all about the SLUT with the ‘Network’ containing scant and out of date info.
http://www.seattlestreetcar.org/future.asp
There is some info out there, but it is mostly spread out through multiple blogs and not easily accessible. The more info out there and the easier it is to get to (Wikipedia not only being one of the first places people search, it is also heavily weighted on Google searches) the better. If we want people to push transit we need to inform them what they are pushing for and to get them excited.
So thought maybe some people here would be interested in building a Seattle Streetcar page, I think it would be a worthwhile project. Unfortunately I am not only new to the Seattle Transit world (although trying to educate as fast a possible) but am not that good with computers or Wikipedia. I’ll do what I can, and am willing to learn, but it seems like a pretty large project so would need a group effort. Anyone feel like trying to get something going?
I don’t know, it just seems that alot of people here got alot of info and it’d be nice to consolidate some that knowledge in one place. Plus it’d be good advertisements for the various transit blogs (including this one :)) that would be cited as references.
Thoughts, Comments, Suggestions?
I created the First Hill Streetcar page on Wikipedia for the very same reason. I made substantial edits to the ORCA card page. A few other people here also edit the local area transit pages on Wikipedia.
I could get a page up real quick when I get home.
I would cite STB as a source only if it was original reporting that has been fact-checked. Otherwise, I use the original news article or try to find primary sources. Wikipedia has guidelines on what sources are acceptable and blogs are usually not one of them. And you’re not supposed to use Wikipedia to promote your website.
Promotion would only be a side benefit, not the reason. The reason would be to put the info out there, and hopefully get people on our side.
http://www.bragg.army.mil/sorb/images/regiments-reflect_01_13.png
:D
Okay registered a wiki account. Looked at getting a start on the page, but the six pages of questions that went with the wizard did a good job of scaring me off. Since you said you have experience with wiki I’ll let you start it… ;)
I’ve seen good written descriptions – I think on HistoryLink – and photos and maps from UW archives. Not a lot of maps, though… Partly because I’m guessing that network maps for transit riders came a long time after the demand for them originated.
I can create maps from scratch. Actually, that is preferred to using copyrighted material that’s not released under a free license.
I think laying out the historic network would be a good visual for what we once had, and what we could have again.
Why would you want streetcars all over? I just don’t understand it. Trolley buses have most the advantages of streetcars (a visual commitment by the transit system that service will be here) but at half the cost. Everyone is expecting Pearl Districts to pop up where ever street car tracks tread. They’re going to be disappointed.
The Pearl was a unique opportunity: a bunch of completely abandoned industrial land within a reasonable walking distance of downtown Portland was opened for development during the booming late 1990’s and the real estate speculation frenzy of the early part of this decade. It’s been the roaring success it is partly because of the streetcar, but it’s certainly not the most important factor.
The Broadway Bridge/MLK eastside line will bring streetcar dreamers crashing back to earth. The streetcar won’t improve accessibility to the MLK corridor one whit, except for riders who want to go slumming from the Pearl District to the racy bars between MLK and the river. It’ll be faster to get downtown to walk across a bridge than to wander around the South Waterfront or through the Pearl on the streetcar.
Plus it doesn’t even take a rider to the CBD core; it runs along the west side.
Aren’t some of the old maps either public because they were printed by the government or so old that they can be reprinted like Jane Eyre books?
The best maps I’ve seen online have been here at STB. I think Oran made them. I saved them as .jpg files so I can reference them quickly at home. If anybody gets better information, it seems to me that Oran would be the best person to give it to.
When you’ve got your map, explore your city. Try to spot the differences in historical buildings where the trolleys ran and didn’t run. There are many visual delights to be found here.
I’m living out of town now so it’s not so easy for me, but lately I’ve been thinking that the provision of garages for houses would be a clue about how and when the neighborhood developed. We’ve heard quite a bit about how Seattle was built as a streetcar suburb, so it would be interesting to see where and to what extent that was true. Don’t forget the interurban lines north and south which are typically not shown on a map of Seattle streetcars.
Here’s a map I like that overlays the historic streetcar lines with the modern urban villages in Seattle.
http://hugeasscity.com/2008/10/20/fixed-guideway-transit-and-land-use-patterns-aka-a-good-reason-to-vote-yes-for-proposition-1/
Too bad it’s not in a Creative Commons license. Therefore it can’t be used on Wikipedia. It isn’t too had to recreate, though.
Alright, I’m making one now, as a page called the “Seattle Streetcar Network.” Once I finish this first draft it would be great if people could put in images, an infobox, and more info.
I’ll make a Streetcar Network diagram in the next couple days, similar to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Link_Light_Rail
Oh cool, thanks.
I loved Train Simulator. I’ve had so many wrecks in Japan.
My favorite simulation was the little two-car trip in southern Japan.
does anyone know anything about the central link light rail signaling?
today while on the southbound westlake platform i noticed that on the north end of the northbound platform there was a signal against the right wall that displayed green or red and then another light that appeared to be just above the left edge of the wall that was either white or yellow.
it seemed that when trains went through the green went to red and the white went to yellow however when buses went by only the green went to red and the other signal stayed the same. i assume the white/yellow signal controls train movement. how do train operators know whether or not they will diverge to the other stub track?
There’s a signal diagram of the Downtown Seattle Transit Tunnel on page 17 of http://www.bettertransport.info/pitf/SoundTransitCentralLinkOpsPlan.7.29.08.pdf .\
It appears that there is a signal right before the crossover switch in the Pine Street Stub Tunnel.
this is an awesome document. thanks. been looking over it since you posted it.
anyone know how many round trips a light rail operator makes in a shift? 8 hour shift i assume. they start, take a lunch break and end at the maintenance facility?
I agree–this is an awesome document. But it does have some flaws; it says Link will operate at 6-min headways and it alludes to a plan to have every other train terminate at Rainier Beach. That makes sense though, because it’s from 2008. Does anyone know if there’s a newer version available?
You’d probably have to file another public records request with Sound Transit to get it.
Agreed, best description of the system I’ve seen. Looks like 84 min turnaround when Airport Stn opens, so about 5.7 laps per shift, less some start/stop daily functions, so 5 RT’s a shift seems right.
Speaking of Airport Link, the document show 6 min. peak hour headways. Will the 7.5 min. spacing be increased for next year?
Also, 2010 ridership was projected to be 32,600 per day, or about twice the current level of 16,100 per day (http://www.bettertransport.info/pitf/Linkpassengercount.htm).
That jump in ridership seems very …. ambitious.
Yes, yellow/white (white is actually “Lunar”) for Trains, green/red are bus signals. Trains signals may look like just a light from far away, but are actually a rectangle shape. Vertical Lunar (White) is proceed, Yellow Horizontal is stop. And at a switch or crossover, it will be a diagonal bar.
To answer your question, I believe the crossover signal is up at the Stub Tunnel, not the signal at Westlake Station.
How Signals Work:
When the next segment in the tunnel is clear(Segment is either a station or the tube between stations.) Signals will be Lunar & Green, meaning train or bus can enter. Remember no more than one train per segment, and no train or bus together in one segment, unless directed by Link Control or Supervisor. More than one bus okay in same segment.
When a train is in the next segment, Signals will be Yellow for train and Red for Bus, because no one can proceed until train ahead clears.
When a bus is in the next segment, Signals will be Yellow for train, but green for buses. Bus can follow eachother into same segment, but a train will hold until bus clears.
ahh ok, i was too far away to see the specifics. thats pretty cool that a diverging is diagonal, makes it pretty straight forward.
here on bnsf territory the bottom aspect will be yellow to indicate diverging (except in the case of diverging clear which is red over green or diverging approach medium which is red over a blinking yellow).
makes it a little complicated sharing the tunnel with buses and trains and the limitations of no trains and tunnels in the station but they seem to work it out well with their signaling system.
thanks for the info.
Does anyone know if the parking lot at the Tukwila Link station tends to fill up on Saturdays? I was thinking of taking some of my kids on the Central Link into Seattle on a Saturday. None of us have yet ridden it.
Nope. Not even on game days. You should take the ride. The kids will dig it. We do it all the time and even took an entire youth baseball team into town on it for one of the kid’s birthdays.
Do park at Tukwila and come on downtown with your family – lots to do in the city at the Holidays!
Hey, thanks Alex, and everyone else that is working on The Seattle Streetcar Network wikipage.
I posted this in the discussion section of the wiki, but am also posting it here since I was the first to open the discussion page and people might not know to go check on it.
Okay, I added the Waterfront Streetcar, as it was the first Streetcar, and may come back in some form or other in the future.
Would this map be of any use? Being on a government website from a government organization, is it not public domain (I really don’t know, but I would assume so)?
http://www.seattlestreetcar.org/future.asp
Also would Conlin’s statements to The Stranger be of any use?
• Building Light Rail to West Seattle and a Streetcar to Ballard
“I would like to see us extend the South Lake Union Streetcar over to Fremont and over to Ballard,” Conlin said. He envisions using the same sort of traffic-signal preemption light rail uses on Martin Luther King Jr. Way South to allow a streetcar to move quickly through traffic. But that’s only a stopgap until we can afford to build a Ballard-bound light-rail line, he said. In the meantime, Conlin thinks the city can build a light-rail line to West Seattle within a few years. “I think that that one is relatively easy from a logistic standpoint,” he said. “We have to come up with the money, but I don’t think it’s terribly expensive.” A member of the finance committee of Sound Transit, Conlin thinks the voters would approve “a financing plan that makes sense” to pay for the project. He proposes a small utility hike, buy-in from businesses closest to the line, and other tax increases.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/meet-your-new-mayor/Content?oid=2647953
Should we move discussion to here?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Seattle_Streetcar_Network
Any word about whether the “next train” signs will be functioning in advance of Airport Link’s opening on the 19th? Will they even be working ON the 19th?
you mean at the airport station? its an island platform.
No, I mean the announcements on the electronic platform signs that say how many minutes until the next train arrives.