Community Transit Making Changes

44 Replies to “Community Transit Making Changes”

1. I’ve wondered about the utility of that station as I frequently drive by. I can only assume that LRT tracks will eventually fill the median, and replace bus lanes or maybe even compliment them, but you sure can’t find that out by going to the project information provided by ST or WSDOT.
   A quick glance at Google Maps shows ‘not much’ within walking distance. 4 or 6 dwellings per acre at best, and the nearest commercial area is 3/4mi walk to the NE. West of the freeway is cul-de-sac village and a golf course to the SW. So rail/bus will draw from the P&R, which is 880 stalls in the garage, or maybe 1000 boardings per day.
   I’ve not done the math on capital cost per boarding, but it sure seems like HWY99 would be a better place for mass transit in that area.

   1. I discounted any bus riders, as the changes CT is proposing may actually decrease ridership by eliminating the Brier-Seattle Express buses in favor of a shuttle to the new park and ride. I’ll let others postulate on which will draw more riders – an express bus to Seattle with all it’s frailties, or a longer trip on LINK with hopefully fewer disruptions.

   2. Why don’t you help with the utility of that station by getting out of your car and taking mass transit?

      1. Sam, if a snarky little remark is the best you can do when someone poses a serious question about future transit changes, then maybe you should find another outlet for your hostility.

      2. Considering the station’s not open yet, I’m not sure how it would help that station specifically.

   3. I live in Edmonds, so I’m really looking forward reasonably close access to ST Express. Those of us in Edmonds/Mountlake Terrace are stuck between Lynnwood Transit and the user-hating abomination that is the 145th Freeway Station.

      I think CT is inching towards this (by adding shuttles at the expense of a shortened commuter route), but I’d like to see them eliminate the really expensive commuter service in favor of high-frequency local service to the new station. It seems pointless to duplicate ST Express, since they are supposedly providing the regional network…

      Just seems like those service hours are better spent locally to make it easy and fast to transfer.

      1. My thoughts regarding the utility of this station mainly depend on which buses end up stopping there. If the only buses stopping there end up being the Sound Transit buses from Everett, Ash Way, and Lynnwood, I think there is going to be a capacity problem – most of those buses during peak times tend to already have a standing room only load by the point they get to Mountlake Terrace. I think it will only work if Community Transit buses with available space are stopping there as well.

         It is the same issue that occurs with the South Everett Park and Ride at 112th in the I-5 median. The only Seattle route stopping there is the 510 from Everett, which over the last several years has become so crowded with Everett Station riders that by the time it arrives at South Everett, there are at most a dozen seats left and everyone else in the frequently several dozen person deep line end up having to stand (I actually recently switched back to the 412 for exactly this reason). Meanwhile there are Community Transit buses from points further north with available seats driving by on I-5 but that do not stop at South Everett due to the fact that Everett is not part of the Community Transit service area.

         So I think it is going to be a problem if Mountlake Terrace ends up with most of its service from Sount Transit only.

      2. When flyer stops like this (or totem lake and eastgate) are built I’m of the belief that every bus (ST, Metro, CT, PT, ET) should stop at it. In my opinion all direct service to the P&R should be eliminated and the balance of the service shifted to routes that end somewhere north of this station.

      3. i agree, now if we could get HOV lanes and facilities like these in pierce county…

      4. My understanding from the last CT planning committee meeting is that ST is doubling service through the new station. One of the routes is going to 15 minute headways (the 511, I think).

      5. Just dug through the SIP and in Feb the 511 goes to 15-minute headways from morning through evening and all stop at Mountlake Terrace. The 513 is adding several trips and all will stop at there too. Why the 510 isn’t, I don’t know.

      6. So the station will be served by:
         ST 510 (30 min off peak)
         ST 511 (30 min off peak)
         ST 513 (peak only)
         CT 413 (peak only)
         CT 415 (peak only)

         During peak periods combined headways will be below 10 minutes. If ST prioritizes this segment the station can have 15 minute service or better all day without adding any service.

      7. No 510 at the station.

      8. I’m not sure how to confirm this, but I believe that CT’s commuter service is less expensive per revenue hour than their local service – they contract most of their commuter routes and all the ST service out, which gives them the savings. As a rider, I’m certainly a proponent of improving frequency on local routes, but trading commuter hours straight across for local hours would cost CT quite a bit of money that they don’t have.

      9. CT’s commuter service does collect a much higher fare than Sound Transit so it may be that more of their cost is covered by fare revenue.

      10. It’s not that much higher – and it will be the same next June.

      11. It used to be contracted out to MV transportation, not sure who has it now but from what i understand it was quite the sweetheart deal for CT.

   4. Can someone answer this so I don’t have to look through a bunch of ST/CT PDFs? Is that station being built in such a way – similar to the stations of the DSTT, though that didn’t quite work out perfectly – such that light rail can basically be stuck into it without much difficulty?

      1. Could perhaps a Link Station be built as an elevated station above this station? This would perhaps help in the approaches due to the nearby overpasses in both directions.

         Or perhaps above the P&R garage?

      2. From my understanding no because Link will never run in the median of I-5. Although anything is possible, how I-5 is built it would just be too expensive to build it in the middle. You’ll most likely see in on the East side of I-5 till around the county line at which point it will switch over to the West side of I-5.

      3. Ouch!, if that’s the case, and most express routes will be truncated at the nearest LRT station, why are these huge median P&R’s being built?
         It seems that ST is setting the stage to fail, trying to compete with their own express buses in ST3.

      4. Which ones are you specifically referring to?

         In the case of Mountlake Terrace, there is almost no direct freeway access to the Transit Center and garage (which was built by and is owned by CT, not ST). So even if you end the ST Express service from Everett at Mountlake Terrace (until Link reaches Everett, in oh, 20 years), you still need the freeway station to make the connection, otherwise you have to add 5-10 minutes to route on city streets to the station (which was the reason the station is being built).

         As it is, it’ll be 10 years before Link ever reaches Mountlake Terrace.

      5. Given that ST knows they’ll build a LR station in Mountlake Terrace, I’m sure they’ve figured out where to put it and how to connect it to this station. Perhaps they’ll extend the walkway to the east side. Although I hope they realize that walking across a freeway will seem like a long distance to people. Cf the opposition to putting the Bellevue Transit Center on the east side of 405.

         Link could cross the freeway twice too, and go directly to the P&R. Better for Link to cross twice than for pedestrians to cross once. And if the distance from their car to the train is less than the distance from their car to an express bus, so much the better.

         I hope ST follows through and truncates the express buses. But the station would still be important for local buses. I read CT is leaning against tuncating its express buses, but ST has no control over CT. Of course, if CT’s budget remains in the gutter, it may find Link to be a godsend.

      6. I was kinda hoping someone could post a link to the current thinking on a station at Mountlake Terrace. Maybe even an artist concept, but I couldn’t find anything at the ST website – which is usually pretty good for that stuff.

      7. According to ST: “After leaving Northgate Station, the alignment would continue along the east side of I-5 to North of SW 220th St, where it would cross over I-5 to the West side”.

         That puts the existing park and ride on the same side of the freeway, so no need for anyone, Link or pedestrian, to cross the freeway at all (other than to the bus stop, and that’s only across the one direction).

         Makes me wonder if that’s why ST is building freeway station slightly north of the garage (thus the longer and less-direct passenger walkway) – I can’t tell from Google’s satellite photos if there’s enough room for guideway between the garage and the freeway, but that seems like the only option for east-side running. That should connect the LRT station directly to the garage and freeway station.

      8. First off, would it be wise to have Link just go through the bus stop at Mountlake Terrace? Wouldn’t this be a grand place to accommodate transfers?

         Secondly, they probably had to put it so far north so buses could get under 236th Street.

      9. Nathan: Another source has confirmed what you said off-line about ST alignments north of Northgate. Thanks for the info. That makes more sense.

2. I kinda wish North Link north of Northgate would go up 15th, then at the County Line going up 56th Ave W so that it could serve North City in Shoreline and the area that Mountlake Terrace plans for its new City Center rather than just park-and-rides along the freeway… But oh well.

   1. There’s a path from the Transit Center parking lot up through the park that can get you to the Mountlake Terrace city center area in around a third of a mile. Even walking out of the P&R to 236th, you can get to 56th in less than a half mile from the actual freeway station. It’s more walkable than it appears.

      1. Route Please. I measured 3/4 mile from the end of the freeway platform, across the skybridge, through the garage to 236th (1/4mi so far) then another 1/2 mile to 232nd/56th.

      2. I was just using the measuring tool on Google maps, crossing the ped. bridge, walking through the garage, out the driveway to 236th and up the street to 56th. I just checked again and got 2600 feet from the beginning of the bridge to 236th and 56th. Google maps tells me it’s 1627 feet from the park & ride entrance to 236th/56th, which is under 1/3 mile.

      3. OK, I didn’t see the shortcut through the woods, although I’m not sure how many would choose that route after dark, but come do up with .57 mi. Going to your city center, which is mostly residential, its what you say it is.
         I guess my point was the ‘utility’ of the station.
         It’s a 1/4 mile walk from the bus zone on 236th, through the parking garage, out the pedestrian bridge, down the stairs, and out the platform to wait for an express bus. Say 5 min. to walk it, and another 5 min wait for a bus on average, and that’s 10 minutes.
         Remaining on your CT-477 bus gets you to 5th/Jefferson in anywhere between 18-24 minutes in the peak, so not a lot of folks are going to be happy about getting to Seattle later, and having to stand up the whole way.
         LRT on the West side doesn’t help matters, with the walk, wait, and 25 min. trip to downtown.

      4. I don’t care what CT’s schedule says…from WSDOT, Lynnwood to Seattle:

         “Your 95% Reliable Travel Time is 56 minutes. 95% of the time you would need to leave at 7:34 AM to arrive by 8:30 AM.”

         I believe that one. 25 min. to downtown via Link with tons of capacity is going to be a significant improvement.

      5. I was just going by CT’s timetable, and assumed it was reasonably accurate, otherwise they would change it.
         I don’t dispute your 56 min. time to Seattle from Lynnwood (where?), but would like to see some data reference to support it.
         If it is 56 minutes from Mountlake Terrace P&R, which is the subject, then 25 on Link is a no-brainer.
         If CT schedule is right, and ST travel times correct, then it’s another 194/Link debate all over again.

      6. I guess I’m just going to have to ride one of the commuter routes just to see how long it takes…

      7. Ask your driver how often they are late getting into Seattle and by how much. If their getting screwed out of their break every day, they will give you an ear-full.

3. Commuter routes from this area never take just 26 minutes unless there’s absolutely no traffic. And I can attest to the capacity issues on the north end commuter routes these days. I stand just about as often as I sit riding from Lynnwood TC. I can’t wait for Link.

   Even though this station is convenient for me, I can’t see using it. That’s a hefty walk from the garage to the stop. With my knees I’d have to wait for an elevator, which will probably be as slow as those in the bus tunnel bridges. Then a guaranteed standing ride to DT. No thanks.

   In the end, if they really wanted to decrease commuter times they’d give these buses transit-only lanes in downtown and increase peak HOV to 3+. How many riders would choose transit if they saw busses flying by them instead of hung up in traffic?

   1. Thanks Paul, for the ‘seasoned vet’ perspective.
      I wish the Transportation Commission would hold WSDOT’s feet to the fire. Those HOV lanes are supposed to average 45 mph in the peak, otherwise by law, they are supposed to raise the limit from 2+ to 3+ or even 4+ if thats what it takes.
      It’s something everyone just ignores.

      1. mabye with the new smart highways system they can accomplish this. There is a cost to changing signs you know.

      2. Smart highways signs are only south of Seattle.

      3. They’re also installed on 520, just not operational yet. I-90 is getting them as well.

   2. If transit agencies had any actual power, HOV lanes would already be at 3+ and we’d already have more transit lanes downtown. Metro, CT, and PT recommended 2 bus lanes on 4th and 2nd through downtown Seattle several years ago, but SDOT won’t allow it. WSDOT controls HOV requirements, and they’re functionally anti-transit, so they won’t act on HOV-3 despite transit agencies having been requesting it for years. Please don’t criticize transit agencies for not doing something they have absolutely no control over.

      Also, I don’t believe that walking distances are any further at Mountlake Terrace than they are from the far corner of Lynnwood Transit Center. If you travel early, not a big deal, but if you park after 7 am, you’re way in the corner behind the direct ramp anyway. Using google maps, it’s 800 feet to the far corner of the parking garage at MLT, 1000 to the far corner of LTC. Not that I care which one you park at; it can just be helpful to know.

      1. I didn’t intend to blame CT or any other transit agency for the HOV problems.

         I’m always at LTC about 7 am by design, because I know it can get bad there between 7 and 8. I usually find spots about 150-200 feet from the D bays. I’m also usually about a half-hour early for work. Pays off in minutes saved walking to-from the bus bays to my car.

         Since this is a CT-related thread, I also want to give a shoutout to the addition of routes that enter Seattle from the south (Columbia Ave). I’ve saved eaily 30 minutes a day because of these routes. The main reason is the lack of traffic into and out of DT along these routes. The buses that leave Seattle along Howell sit through light after light because of all the SOVs trying to enter SB I-5. Really is a mess there.

         Just wish they would give us the bigger buses. Those routes are getting packed as people realize the time savings. Kind of sucks for the Marysville/Lake Stevens riders who have to make an extra stop in Lynnwood, but it sure has been a boon for me.

4. I’m a 413 rider from Ashway P&R. I get there EARLY, catching the bus around 6:10 AM. Even at that hour, there’s always a line at Ashway. Seats are 90 to 100 percent taken even at that hour. And even with the lighter traffic it takes a good 30 minutes to get into downtown.

   If Community Transit capacity were to increase that would help, but I don’t see that with the budget. Thus more packing and a longer commute.

   Personally, they should keep either route 413 or 415 as a direct express, whichever one they want to run less frequently.

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