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WL on Open Thread 26: Longfellow Creek> OK, yeah. The problem with that is the travel time is slow. You really aren’t much faster than a bus. Might as well just go with BRT. The stub isn't that much faster either? The alignment is basically the same until denny way. 15th ave and elliot ave can be elevated, there's only 1 mile of at grade to westlake. The main cost factor is the tunnel not the elevated sections. The travel time from ballard to westlake is only 1 or 2 minutes longer.
Tom Terrific on Open Thread 26: Longfellow CreekWL, "reaching an OMF" is relatively easy though not "free", assuming that a relatively shallow tunnel alignment under Westlake is chosen in order to take full advantage of the value of an automated light metro stub. There would have to be a "junction box" built a couple of blocks north of the New Westlake platforms. Look at the intersections of Stewart and Westlake and Stewart and Third in Google Earth. Both intersections are "obtuse angles". Stewart and Westlake seems almost "made for an LR tunnel curve"; it must be within ten of 135°. So, it's fairly easy to put a...
WL on Open Thread 26: Longfellow Creek@Ross You might want to elaborate a bit more how this stub would work because you're claiming multiple items and I don't see how they could simultaneously exist. *Same-elevation/level with existing Westlake station* Sure I can see one having a non-revenue connection if it's the same level, this fixed the OMF issue. But if it's the same level I don't see how one is going to extend further to first hill now *Underground, lower than westlake station* Sure this allow for a future tunnel boring machine from the south side to connect up with the stub. But if the elevation...
Ross Bleakney on Open Thread 26: Longfellow CreekI’m referring to the original candidate projects. Option 1, 15th Ave then 1st Avenue (rapidride D) OK, yeah. The problem with that is the travel time is slow. You really aren't much faster than a bus. Might as well just go with BRT. It reminds me of what Bruce Nourish wrote almost a decade ago: https://seattletransitblog.com/2013/12/06/some-thoughts-on-ballard-option-c/.
Ross Bleakney on Open Thread 26: Longfellow CreekAs meta commentary, part of the problem with the stub idea is that one ‘kinda?’ can’t use the funds from the other subareas to build that partial tunnel. So what? Backing up here, there are two possibilities when it comes to the main line: 1) No West Seattle Link. 2) West Seattle Link, with the trains all heading north. Some would turn back (eventually) but they would all go as far as the UW. The latter would require spending money making sure the trains can all go in the existing tunnel. To do that is definitely something that benefits the...
Jimmy James on Open Thread 26: Longfellow CreekThank you for sharing your experience on the trail. The city trail that I have walked the most is the north Seattle portion of the Interurban trail. Most people guess it is the Burke Gilman. But I have been on the Interurban more times. I used to work a block away from part of it in the early 2000's. I have walked from the south entrance at about 109th and Fremont to a little north of 145th and back. I have also walked from the Sears parking lot near 155th St to 205th and Meridian. We walked back to Costco...
WL on Open Thread 26: Longfellow Creek@Ross > I admit I’m not sure exactly sure what you are proposing. The train goes through Belltown and then runs on First (to cut costs)? Or are you suggesting it follows the same path to Westlake, then cuts over to First? The latter seems fairly expensive, while not getting you that much. You throw away automation (and with it, good frequency and probably smaller stations). I'm referring to the original candidate projects. Option 1, 15th Ave then 1st Avenue (rapidride D) and West Seattle C-03b (rapidride C). Before the split the spine idea and expensive tunnel. If you wanted...
WL on Open Thread 26: Longfellow CreekI've explained most of it above in my response to Mike but I'll repeat it. > This idea is the opposite. Downtown is where the buses are slow. The train would be just as slow. So now you are basically asking everyone to transfer to a train that would travel no faster than their old bus. > If it is on the surface, you can forget about automation. This means it isn’t especially frequent. So now you are transferring from a bus that runs every ten minutes to a train that runs every ten minutes most of the day. If...
Ross Bleakney on Open Thread 26: Longfellow CreekI mean with the stub idea wouldn’t one have to exit at Westlake and transfer as well? For some trips, yes. To get to the south end of downtown you would have to transfer. It is worth noting that this is not that different than how riders often use Link now. Link serves part of downtown, but to get to First Hill, Belltown or SLU, they transfer (or walk). In this case though, you could make train-to-train transfers, which is typically pretty good (this is why it is essential to get the Westlake transfer right). Frequency is the key. The...
Ross Bleakney on Open Thread 26: Longfellow CreekWhen folks like me were making the case for a second bus tunnel (West Side Bus Tunnel) I believe it was Frank who came up with a very nice graphic. He basically had circles around the areas that were slow, while everything else was fast. The bus tunnel, of course, would be where the buses are slow. This idea is the opposite. Downtown is where the buses are slow. The train would be just as slow. So now you are basically asking everyone to transfer to a train that would travel no faster than their old bus. Why? Capacity? Is...
Ross Bleakney on Open Thread 26: Longfellow Creekthat would leave East Link without a direct connection except at Westlake Which would be adequate for most trips. West Seattle to Bellevue suffers a bit, but I doubt there are that many riders taking that trip. It is yet another case where an express bus (with proper infrastructure) is the solution for West Seattle. Even with existing infrastructure you could probably beat the train most of the time (there are HOV lanes much of the way). It would be as simple as taking one of the buses (e. g. the C) and going to Downtown Bellevue instead of Downtown...
Tom Terrific on Open Thread 26: Longfellow CreekRoss, yes, you could probably connect to Line 1 at Stadium, but that would leave East Link without a direct connection except at Westlake. It would require some demo on one side of the freeway or the other through the International District because there's not enough room for two tracks between the freeway structure and the existing buildings. The structure would have to be pretty high, though, because it would need to clear the freeway either at the north or south end of the parallel running zone.
Tom Terrific on Open Thread 26: Longfellow CreekAl, that's great for Harborview and Yesler Village, but First Hill is much more than Harborview, and "Madison BRT" is not really that great an option. It's better than POBS, for sure, but boarding and alighting on Seneca and Madison around Third are not for the feeble or infirm.
WL on Open Thread 26: Longfellow Creek> Do we have to choose? Seriously though, I’ve very concerned about the station placement and alignment. I feel like Ballard Link is fragile, and always has been. If I had to summarize general alignments, I would have three different categories: ... 3) Projects that could go either way, depending on the details. This is Ballard Link. Done right, and it is an excellent line. Ballard, Uptown, South Lake Union and downtown are all good destinations. Let me correct a bit. By alignment I mean the excessively tunneling. And even worse Sound Transit is considering even more tunneling at both...
WL on Open Thread 26: Longfellow Creek@AL > I could see an entrance being on the east side of Aurora going fully down to the track level with elevators, and a walkway being part of the bore — ultimately reaching the station west of Aurora. (Another main station trance would still be west of Aurora.) The bore or bores for the tracks would all be below the 99 tunnel portal like they are already planning. That's fair, I didn't quite consider they could dig the pedestrian pathway as part of the bored tunnel. Though Sound Transit hasn't suggested that approach so far.
Mike Orr on Open Thread 26: Longfellow Creek"a minority of PC residents 7 years ago kinda wantED it. A majority didn’t." Our system is based on what a majority votes for, not on what a poll says. If they didn't want it, they could have chosen different leaders, or argued against including Pierce in the ST district.
Ross Bleakney on Open Thread 26: Longfellow CreekI’m more concerned by the cost escalations of the stations and alignments than the exact placement. Do we have to choose? Seriously though, I've very concerned about the station placement and alignment. I feel like Ballard Link is fragile, and always has been. If I had to summarize general alignments, I would have three different categories: 1) So fundamentally sound that you really can't screw it up. U-Link for example. So many problems, and yet still the best investment we ever made. 2) So fundamentally weak that it will never be worth the money. West Seattle Link is a good...
WL on Open Thread 26: Longfellow Creek> Portland takes twenty minutes from one end of downtown to the other. I mean with the stub idea wouldn't one have to exit at westlake and transfer as well? Plus if you're going through downtown you can stay on the existing line 1. Or transfer onto Line 1 if heading to Northgate/Seatac. For Northgate to West Seattle one could transfer at Pioneer Square/Sodo (depending on exact configuration) instead. Or for say Seatac to Ballard one can stay on the Line 1 tunnel till westlake and transfer there. Only West Seattle to Ballard would riders really use the at grade...
Cam Solomon on Open Thread 26: Longfellow CreekGotcha. I was confused by your use of the present tense. I have no idea if Pierce County residents really want it. We do know a solid number, but still a minority of PC residents 7 years ago kinda wantED it. A majority didn't. And some politicians wantED it, and probably still do, though I've decided not to trust what ST board member DM Walker actually wants. Her words have been pretty different from her actions, in my small sample experience. And yes, I agree that votes like this should be binding
Ross Bleakney on Open Thread 26: Longfellow CreekEven if the new line went to first hill, One could still transfer at Westlake? Yes, definitely. I'm just saying by sending the new line to First Hill, you add more value to that transfer station. Imagine a few scenarios: 1) You are trying to get from Phinney Ridge to downtown: With the current plans for Ballard Link, you just ride the 5 until it gets very close to your destination. You could transfer to Link, but it just isn't worth it, even if you are headed to the south end of downtown. 2) You are trying to get from...
Mike Orr on Open Thread 26: Longfellow CreekThe Pierce County public chose their county and city leaders. Those same leaders are the ones who insisted on being in ST, insisted on the single tax district so that Seattle/King "Yes" votes would overcome Pierce's "No" votes, and insisted on subarea equity. Then those politicians insisted on having a spine to Tacoma and Everett as top priority. That was the reason they wanted Pierce in the ST district. The tax district Pierce was a part of approved TLDE in 2016. Other voter decisions are permanent, so who wouldn't this be? You can't plan or build anything large if approval...
WL on Open Thread 26: Longfellow Creek> For the record, there has been no additional schedule delay since Realignment in 2021, That's fine, I agree I don't think the delay matters too much. The ballard link is more waiting on funds, even if they had completed designs 3~5 years earlier they'd still be waiting. More worryingly is if they wait too long and some building get's built on whatever xyz site they choose. I'm still kind of astonished they don't talk with the seattle zoning board to not approve apartments on the future sites. The zoning board is more then ready to protect single family homes...
Mike Orr on Open Thread 26: Longfellow Creek"Honestly I still like the at-grade approach through downtown copying Los "Angeles’ blue/gold line, Portland’s light rail, and Dallas light rail." That's what's wrong with most American light rail! It's the opposite of what Europe does, where they build a downtown tunnel like the DSTT. Portland takes twenty minutes from one end of downtown to the other. People have been complaining about it ever since it opened, and now there's a plan to tunnel the center. "Also fyi they’ve delayed the selection of the Ballard Link extension yet another 3 years. (page 6)" I don't see it on page 6....
Nathan D. on Open Thread 26: Longfellow Creekope, that was meant as a reply to @WL.
Nathan D. on Open Thread 26: Longfellow CreekFor the record, there has been no additional schedule delay since Realignment in 2021, which determined a "target" delivery year of 2037 and an "affordable" delivery year of 2039. Based on the May 2023 Annual Program Review (part of the Realignment tracking process; https://www.soundtransit.org/st_sharepoint/download/sites/PRDA/FinalRecords/2023/Report%20-%202023%20Board%20Annual%20Program%20Review%2005-19-23.pdf), the 2037 delivery date is no longer feasible, and so the "affordable" 2039 delivery is now the active schedule. This assumes that formal design and permitting begins in 2026 (4 years of work), with pre-construction (demolition, etc.) starting in 2027. Design is planned to be complete in 2030, which will kick off 8 years of heavy...