Redmond Station Areas

81 Replies to “Redmond Station Areas”

1. Thanks for exploring!

   Re: Overlake street names, per city Redmond (https://www.redmond.gov/607/Overlake-Village-Infrastructure-Planning)

   North-south streets are named for: Auguste Marie Louis Nicolas and Louis Jean Lumière, Leonardo da Vinci, Alexander Calder, Martha Graham, and Rabindranath Tagore. East-west streets are named for: Abū ʿAlī al-Ḥasan ibn al-Ḥasan ibn al-Haytham, Yvonne Madelaine Brill, Grace Hopper, Alan Turing, and [Shen] Kuo.

   Neat!

   1. I was able to guess Hopper. Grace Hopper is one of the most important people in the history of computing. She was the first to devise the theory of machine-independent programming languages and natural-language programming. I can’t overstate the importance of these advancements. Prior to that, all programming was done using symbols. Every programming language in existence today has their roots in what she did. Everything related to programming (such as you being able to read this) was influenced heavily by her work.

      She also helped pioneer the term “bug” for a software fault. A moth landed in the machine and screwed everything up. After they found it, the term began being used for programming mistakes.

2. Thanks for the post. Question about the B Line bus stops at Overlake Village. When I was out there, the B Line stops were about 300 yards south of the OV station. But you said it was a minute walk. So maybe they moved the B Line stops closer.

   Here’s a map of where I saw the stops. You can see the little square blue bus icons on the map near Mayuri Foods. Are you saying the stops are now further north next to that empty open field next to the station? Because then that would be a minute walk. If the bus stops are still near Mayuri Foods, that’s more like a 4+ minute walk.

   https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6353017,-122.1379604,714m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

   1. They were probably west of Zbrio Salon & Spa, so two blocks further north. When I walked north from 24th to the foot of the bridge I somehow didn’t see them. At the bridge I looked around and still didn’t see them, but I was probably looking north, since I assumed they were around the curve, the “31st” stop. I didn’t walk up there because I didn’t want to go around the curve and they might not be there and I’d have to walk back for nothing. So I went across the bridge to 148th, back down to Safeway, and then to the stop east of Safeway at 24th & Bel-Red Road, because I’d seen that one.

      On the bus the next stop was “Overlake P&R”, and it seemed to be just south of the station driveway. In other words, the should be north of the driveway crosswalk, but they were south. Still, you’d just have to cross that small sidewalk and there’s the station plaza.

      I can’t estimate feet and I was on the bus so I couldn’t time it, so I estimated the walk from the bridge and added a minute in case it was an underestimate. When I timed the TIB walk from the entrance to Southcenter Blvd (where we have suggested putting the F stations), it was 25 seconds. So I was comparing it to that, and thinking it might be 25 seconds, but said 2 minutes to avoid an underestimate, and to count any additional time to get to the real entrance wherever it would be beyond the bridge.

      So it looks like Metro did move it north, not as far as ideal, but almost. But the B will only have it for another year. When I looked up the East Link phase 3 proposal, I found the final proposal, so i revised the link in the article and looked at the frequencies of the routes. It was then that I saw the B would be on 156th rather than 152nd, and the 223 would come to that stop instead. So that stop will have a coverage route, while the B and 245 will bypass it and serve Redmond Tech instead. This is confirmed by the station names on the route maps.

      The logic may be that the buses will originate at strip next to I-5, go north and east along the driveway, turn right onto 152nd southbound, and there are the stops. Whereas if the stops were north of that crosswalk, the buses couldn’t access them and go south at the same time. Or maybe the stops will be eliminated, if the buses board at the bus strip next to I-5. The southbound stop is one of those temporary stops, so it may not be long for this world, as in gone in two months.

      The ultimate problem is the location of the Link station. It should be on 24th east of Safeway where the center of the retail is and the street people use (24th). Instead it’s pushed six blocks north to be adjacent to 520. That makes it hard for north-south buses to get to it. So they’re not going to try. The only buses that will stop here are probably those that terminate here.

3. Out of all the Link station areas in Bellevue and Redmond, I think downtown Redmond is by far the best all around station area. It has/will have lot’s of housing, great transit, parks, amenities, etc. It’s relatively compact and walkable. The one thing I would ding it on are the streets. The downtown street situation is a chaotic mess.

   1. I would put Downtown Redmond second behind Downtown Bellevue. Downtown Bellevue just has a lot more people.

4. Is Overlake Village a 15-minute city? If not, what would it need to do to become one?

   1. Leaving aside the less than ideal station placement, I’d say no, it’s not now, but will be. The greater station area is only partially developed. Still to come is the development of the entire area to the south of the station, from the OV station, all the way south to, and including, the former Sears site. And that’s not just wishful thinking. It’s definitely coming. OV is one of those areas that I think in a decade+ won’t look anything like it does today.

      1. Has an anchor store been announced for the Sears lot?

      2. Pre-covid, a big project was announced for the old Sears site called Seritage, with office space, a hotel, residential, shops, restaurants, a park, etc. I wouldn’t be surprised if those plans have changed, were scrapped, or put on hold. From what I’ve read, the first thing they’ll build on the site is a 400+ unit apartment on the northeast corner of the parcel, which would be just across the street to the south from Safeway.

   2. The plans for 152nd Ave look good to me. The west side of the street will be redeveloped as mixed use. The east side of the street is built out as part of Esterra Park. 152nd streetscape will be improved with better protected bike lanes and on-street parking which will make it a nice retail main street on a thru-street.
      There’s also a new street network being built now south of the station.

5. You can see the old rail alignment clearly if you look at Google Maps with the Biking layer – the East Lake Sammamish trail becomes the Redmon Connector Eastrail, which heads west and curves to follow Willows. This is an old rail alignment, with the roads (Willows, E Lk Smm Pkwy) likely following what was first a rail line. The old rail bridge crossing the Sammamish River is still there; you can see is clearly on streetview from the Sammamish River trail, which crossing right under it.

6. “The line will never continue west because it’s really just bending back in a U shape for the last station.” Yes, the U shape is just a quirk of ST choosing to serve SE Redmond before Downtown Redmond (both options were evaluated), but I would be too sure Link will never be extended. The ROW remains available in that old railroad easement, and there is a logical station area centered on Willow & 90th. That neighborhood is lowrise retail & light industrial, which politically is the easiest type of neighborhood to upzone into midrise mixed use. It is not currently in any LRP, but it’s very plausible focus of growth in a few decades, following the same development pattern as the Spring District, Bel-Red, and SE Redmond station areas.

   1. I guess it could be extended to Kirkland or totem lake? but it would be a long routing backwards to redmond before reaching bellevue or even seattle.

      1. If you’re really feeling ambitious it could go up 202 through Woodinville and terminate at a park and ride intercept at 522 (and extending the Stride line from Bothell to Woodinville), the idea being to keep people off of 405. For those coming from the north and northeast, it is not a huge deviation on the way to Bellevue and Seattle. Woodinville and somewhere inbetween Woodinville and Redmond would have to step up with some major redevelopment to really be worth it though, which seems unlikely.

      2. Unlikely, but yes that’s the idea. If Totem Lake and/or Bothell grew significantly, that would be a good way to connect those corridors (in lieu of adding bus lanes and/or expanding Willows row). The fact that it would be a “long way” to Seattle is irrelevant – this extension would only make sense if there was sufficient demand within East King: even with this extension, someone in Totem Lake or Bothell would still take Stride to Link if they were heading to Seattle.

         That’s why I was looking at just 1 station extension first; if downtown Redmond (& Marymoor) are built out and Redmond is still looking to growth, extending midrise zoning across the river is a logical next move. If Totem Lake grows eastwards, then the office parks along Willow could redeveloped into something denser, and voila there is a continuous urban stretch between Totem Lake and Redmond.

         Very long term, but plausible enough I hope Redmond keeps the ROW clear, which I think they have because it’s all parkspace or bike lane from the repurposed rail ROW.

      3. Ross has suggested a Woodinville 405 express to the U-District. It seems like this would be that route if the western end were changed.

7. “The B and 245 both go into the Redmond Tech station bus loop”

   At Overlake transit center, the B and 245 have always stayed on the street, serving stops on 156th, right in front of the transit center. Changing the routes to go into the bus loops would be a big step backwards. It would waste a lot of time going in and out of the bus loop for everyone continuing on the bus, while saving essentially no time for riders transferring because the bus would be moving at essentially walking speed anyway.

   I really hope you are misreading things, and that the B and 245 will stay in the street.

   1. The B went into the bus loop Saturday while I was on it, and the current 245 route map shows a detour into it.

      The last time I went there (taking a 545 from Seattle and transferring to a B southbound), the 545 let me off at 520, and I had to walk around three sides of a walled-off construction site with no sign saying where the other bus routes would be, and ending up on 156th with a B stop there.

      1. There are some service advisories on the King County Metro site saying the Redmond-bound B line and Kirkland-bound 245 are temporarily detoured until July 1. The northbound bus shelter on 156th was removed so the city of Redmond could build a cycle track. Necessary for maintaining service, but I agree with asdf2 that the detour should be avoided long-term.

         The 545 -> B line transfer is definitely unfortunate. I think there’s supposed to be an entrance there to the station and pedestrian bridge, and looks like it’s fully built out and ready for use, but they still haven’t opened that connection.

   2. I’ve had the same experience as Mike, the B (at least) now goes through the Redmond Tech loop.

      I think that decision makes sense. For the B specifically, since it will roughly parallel Link, trips will likely be shorter serving locations between Link stations (such as along 148th and 156th) rather than remaining on the bus passing through Link stations. The station will be well connected via pedestrian bridges across 520, under 40th etc. and is generally a much better place to wait for a bus than along a busy street. The sacrifice of time for people continuing on the bus seems worth the benefits in this case.

8. Got chuckle out of your take on downtown Redmond. You look like a eastside kid now hardly visits here. You must have renewed your passport for this trip. My son moved from Cleveland Street to Greenwood and drives to Houghton with toll and all! Different priorities I guess

   1. I grew up in Bellevue east of where Northup crosses 8th in the 1970s and early 80s. I chose to go to an alternative junior high located at Bellevue High School, and stayed there for high school. My parents drove everywhere, and the first year (7th grade) they drove me to school, but after several months I ventured onto Metro and started taking it to school (around 1979). At the time the 226 was hourly and, from where Northup crosses 8th, it went west to downtown Bellevue, Bellevue HS, and downtown Seattle; and in the other direction it went north north to Interlake HS and Overlake P&R, and in the later years was extended to Redmond.

      My parents divorced in the early 80s, and they move separately at different times to apartments all along Bellevue Way (SE 6th, SE 5th, NE 17th, NE 29th), and my dad was on Somerset Hill in between. So I spent high school living in downtown Bellevue (and for a short time on Somerset). That gave me the experience of walkability and half-hourly buses, like I’d read about in books. It was much better than east Bellevue, but I ultimately wanted something better than that, like Seattle or Chicago.

      In 1985 I went to UW and lived in the dorms, and then had 15-minute buses. From 1989 to 2003 I lived in the northern U-District, at 56th & University Way. In 2003 my apartment building burned down so I moved to Ballard where I worked (65th & 15th), then First Hill (a block from Harborview), and since 2005 I’ve lived in southwest Capitol Hill.

      I go back to Bellevue to see family, and sometimes for other things like the downtown park, stores Seattle doesn’t have, or the Garden D’Lights.

      When Downtown Redmond station opens I’ll be going to the many walking trails there.

9. There is a Planet Fitness in Crossroads Mall, as well as an indoor rock climbing place.

10. Downtown Redmond does have a nice village feel. I also like how the buses encircle the station entrance.

    My issue is that I’m not sure why someone who doesn’t live nearby would want to go there. Is there a destination that will bring riders from elsewhere like a museum or unique retail experience or recreational destination or college?

    It also seems like it’s mostly free parking now. It will be curious what happens to area parking spaces when Link opens.

    [Edit: Changed “leave” to “live”]

    1. There are a half dozen recreational trails going in all four directions, to Marymoor Park and Issaquah, Woodinville, the wooded hills in east Redmond, and along both sides of the Sammamish River. Some of them start from the library park two blocks west of the transit center.

       Marymoor Park is a large park with a dozen ballfields your friend’s rugby team might have a match at, events like Cirque du Soleil and concerts, a velodrome, a large dog-walking park, radio-controlled airplanes, and remnants of the original dairy farm. When I go to Marymoor Village station I want to see how long the walk is to the park entrance and nearest ballfields.

       Downtown Redmond has a lot of restaurants, and a surprisingly large percent of them are independent or local.

       Redmond Town Center is one of the first lifestyle centers (neo outdoor malls) in the region. I don’t think it has much of regional interest now but hopefully it will in the future.

       1. I don’t think Marymoor Park will get many riders. Parks in general don’t. In this case there will be the occasional soccer player who takes Link to a game they are playing in (especially if they are coming from Seattle and want to avoid traffic) but that will be fairly rare. The bike paths are great, but that just means people will bike out there (and bike back).

          There are events, and that will attract some people. But ultimately that doesn’t add up to much ridership. Stadium is pretty much at the bottom of our stations in terms of ridership, despite serving the Seahawks, Mariners and Sounders. Future development will help, but there isn’t a lot of room for that. There isn’t much in the way of bus intercepts either. It looks like only one bus serves it, and most riders reach Downtown Redmond Station first. That basically just leaves the park and ride. I guess the lot (which is huge) may fill up, but I kind of doubt it. We’ll see I guess.

       2. No offense, but I think that the folks who live in Redmond like living here, without the need for “attractions”, and many will find the light rail line very useful, whether they work at Microsoft, Meta/Facebook (in the Spring District), downtown Bellevue, or, like myself, in Seattle.

          What will eventually be the most direct route from the Marymoor Village station to Marymoor Park is not yet open for you to investigate, but if you go to the velodrome you will see how the path will run between it and the nearest office buildings, behind which a ton of new apartment buildings are nearing completion.

          Marymoor Village itself is transforming from low rise office space, ex-heavy equipment businesses, storage facilities, into a residential growth neighborhood. It is already a great location and it will be even more so if the new buildings provide space for restaurants and shops people can walk to. The Whole Foods shopping center already has a few.

          It will also be the primary station for folks who live beyond Redmond, such as the Sammamish area, or even beyond. The huge parking garage will like be packed. I believe the Bear Creek P&R will be replaced by Marymoor Village as a transit hub.

          As a long time resident of Redmond, I’m not a great fan of many of the new apartment buildings downtown Redmond, as they do encroach on the street and create shadowy canyons we didn’t use to have, or that could have been avoided via stepbacks, as in downtown Kirkland, but the changes over the past quarter century have been dramatic, and the light rail stops are hopefully going to make the place more vibrant. i think they will.

       3. I wouldn’t be surprised if Marymoor Village station gets a lot of riders. Again, you have the potential of 1500+ riders that can park there. Folks living nearby because it will be close. Bus routes that feed the station.

          It will also be incredibly visible to people driving on SR-250, stuck in slow traffic, who will perhaps consider taking the train instead.

          The 269 currently services residential neighborhoods with walking distance that used to take the 268 bus, and there are lots of new apartments buildings that have recently opened or will probably open later this year.

    2. Downtown Redmond is a commercial center. It isn’t a regional destination, but it doesn’t need to be. A lot of people will hop on the train (or a bus) to get there, but those numbers will go down the longer the trip. I don’t expect many people from Seattle going there except to visit with others or for their work. But travel mostly within the East Side should be enough to get a fair number of riders. Throw in the people going the other direction (from there to Downtown Bellevue or Seattle) and it should add up to decent ridership.

       Last time I was there was to get a visa to visit Nepal, which shows that there are bound to be a handful of regional attractions.

11. The 2020 post on 2040 ridership projected that the Redmond Town Center station will have the fewest boardings of any East Link station (1300 average weekday boardings or 2600 total)..

    https://seattletransitblog.com/2020/01/27/sound-transits-station-ridership-in-2040/

    This surprised me. I hope that it’s wrong. However, I think it may just be that the forecasting model is picking up on some core things that suppress ridership.

    What are possible factors about why it’s not getting many riders by 2040? Have these been overcome?

    1. It’s now called Marymoor Village station. I haven’t seen it yet and don’t know exactly where it is, but its main purpose is a P&R for Sammamish, since Sammamish won’t have a Link extension. A P&R can fit only so many parking spaces, Sammamish is low density so it’s not that many people, and they’re disproportionately tech workers who now work at home at least part of the time.

       1. Marymoor Village is for the Marymoor neighborhood (hence the name), which is in the process of redeveloping into a midrise cluster. It is also the terminus station of East Link (because of the U bend, it’s not actually the final station), which is why it has both a large P&R and will be the main bus intercept for Sammamish bus routes. It will also be the best access point for cyclists coming from the east and south.

       2. “It’s now called Marymoor Village station” – Actually no. The Downtown Redmond station is across from Redmond Town Center, literally in central downtown Redmond. Marymoor Village, which was once being called SE Redmond Station, is east of downtown Redmond, where SR-520 exits to Route 202 (or the Redmond – Falls City Road).

          Despite the WFH situation, there is still plenty of traffic coming in from Rt 202 in the morning commute window (or heading the other way in the evening).

    2. “It’s now called Marymoor Village station. ”

       That would be the “East Lake Sammamish” station in the chart.

       The Downtown Redmond Stetion is called “Redmond Town Center” in the chart.

    3. That ridership forecast might not have future development accounted for?

    4. I wouldn’t put much weight in the ridership estimates. I think I would do better picking numbers randomly. In general Sound Transit has overestimated suburban ridership, and underestimated urban ridership. In this case they are underestimating the urban potential of a suburban station. Basically they assume everyone is going to drive to a park and ride and then take the train downtown. Ridership is obviously not like that. The station will get plenty of riders who just spontaneously decide to head out there from other parts of the East Side, or from folks who live there who decide to visit Downtown Bellevue (or other neighborhoods). I don’t think ridership on the East Side will be huge, but the proportions they have for the station are all wrong.

       1. I think that ST has underestimated the potential ridership at the Downtown Redmond Station in this forecast from 2020. I believe that the forecasts did assume that Redmond Town Center would assume more traditional retail activity than what is there today.

          I think it would be insightful to see what has produced such a low forecast, and test what could increase that forecast.

          The forecasts were pre-Covid and behavior has seemingly changed in both good and bad ways for Link. The forecasts seem particularly overly focused on parking somewhere and riding a train to work and back at a peak hour (channeling Ross’ comment), and I see that the transit pendulum is seemingly swinging back to wanting all-day use and non-work destinations.

          Link offers something new : guaranteed high frequency transit until later in the evening. Having real nightlife with entertainment choices could be one example of how the station could become more popular. Another example would be encourage an ethnic or lifestyle community to embrace the station area. Of course, a large sports venue or relocated medical center or a performance venue could really change how often people would ride to Downtown Redmond.

          While the place may evolve decently as an organic destination, the City and surrounding developers could enhance its upcoming evolution.

          I ran across this current developer effort to do this very thing. Details are provided here:
          https://www.redmondtowncenterproject.com/home

          As a rather large site with one owner, it has an opportunity to be transformational. It will be interesting to see if the developers play it safe or if they can choose a direction to create a powerful new destination.

       2. I agree Al. It is worth noting that Capitol Hill is the only station that has more riders than before the pandemic. Obviously this is because of additional connections to the north, but those same connections go downtown as well. Westlake hasn’t fully recovered, despite connecting to Northgate (an area that used to attract over 10,000 riders heading downtown) and Roosevelt (which also had a lot of popular express buses to downtown). We have evolved very quickly away transit-to-my-downtown-job to transit-as-part-of-my-lifestyle (like most cities around the world).

12. I recently ran across the newest entertainment park concept: Super Nintendo World.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Nintendo_World

    It’s left me wondering if its international headquartes city (Redmond) will end up with a version of this.

    1. Redmond is the North American headquarters. Nintendo’s world headquarters is in Kyoto, Japan.

13. I first visited Overlake Village area in 1989 as a summer intern at Microsoft. 156th Ave. was a two lane road through the woods, in the process of being widened. Three out of four corners of 156th Ave. NE / NE 40th St. were forested; the Microsoft campus did not stretch all the way there. There were no ramps to or from SR 520 at NE 40th St; you had to exit at 148th Ave. near Overlake Village, or go all the way to NE 51st St. and backtrack. Further on in Redmond, SR 520 ended at West Lake Sammamish Way.

    I rented an apartment within walking distance to Microsoft. There were no buses into the city after like 6:50 PM, which was the case for years. I was willing to bike some of the time, but there wasn’t a reasonable commute option for most people other than to drive. It wasn’t until the mid-late 90’s that this started to improve. ST Express (ST 545 et al) came after that.

    These corporate campuses were all the rage in the 80’s and 90’s, but at the time, I thought this pleasant but antiseptic and isolated campus was a strategic mistake; From day one, I thought Microsoft should have built the campus in the city. I thought the creative stimulation of urban life would be healthy. It would have been a very different pattern of development on the Eastside and in Seattle over the years had that been the case. Now, it’s hard to imagine Microsoft being anywhere other than where it is, but Redmond was a choice they made in 1986.

    1. Yes, I guess Microsoft realized that and when they built the gaming buildings they tried to build their own little village. Soon you will be able to take Link for lunch to Redmond or Bellevue downtown…

    2. In the 1970s highway 520 only went east to 405. Then 148th was opened and we mostly used that. Safeway was where Trader Joe’s is now, and then it moved to its larger current location. I never went north of 24th much because my impression was nothing was there. When I did go to Redmond on the bus once, 148th & Redmond Way was like empty woods, and downtown Redmond was small. The Redmond entrance sign said “Redmond: bicycle capital of the USA”.

       In 9th or 10th grade the 520 extension to Avondale Road opened. My mom was perplexed: why can’t she find where it crosses 156th? She finally said, “It doesn’t. It remains between 148th and 156th.” It only crosses at the north end of Marymoor Park.

       Microsoft was first in one of those office buildings near 108th & Northup Way. Then it built a greenfield headquarters in Redmond. Where was the golf course I’ve always heard about that Microsoft replaced? Or is the golf course still there?

       It was hard to get to Microsoft’s Redmond campus on transit. The other darling for tech office parks was 20th, and it had no transit at all. I always hoped I wouldn’t have to work in one of those isolated office parks to get a good-paying job. I was always able to avoid it, and by 2000 more companies were opening in Seattle so it became easier and easier to find a good job there.

       Now the Microsoft campus has tons of transit, and downtown Bellevue has a lot of companies within walking distance of the transit center. My neighbor in Capitol Hill commuted to Cisco in downtown Bellevue in the 2010s. That wasn’t possible in the 1980s: if you commuted to downtown Bellevue, you must work at Paccar or Bellevue Square.

    3. Eastside and South King County transit in the 1980s was a quarter hourly milk runs, and three-quarters peak expresses to downtown Seattle. The only all-day express was the 340 on 405, similar to the 535+560 now, but terminating at Shoreline P&R and Burien.

       The 550 started in 1999, replacing part of the 226 and 235. The 545 and 554 started sometime after that, and were brand-new corridors that never existed before. Their closest predecessors were peak-only unidirectional routes.

       Corridors with half-hourly midday service included the 550’s predecessors, the 340 (south half), the 150 (to Kent and Auburn), and the 174 (to SeaTac and Federal Way). Issaquah had 90-120 minute service (210).

       1. There was another step. Route 226 was formed in fall 1997; it used the DSTT; it consolidated routes 226 and 235. Previously, Route 253 served the DSTT via SR-520. Route 550 absorbed Route 226.

14. Questions for the STB hive on Route 226. See: https://cdn.kingcounty.gov/-/media/king-county/depts/metro/documents/projects/east-link-connections/routes/226.pdf?rev=9130bef14e4f44488be7934316e11885&hash=717F7E3BCAADE49452A2A16CE47C8781
    In Bel-Red the conceptual ELC Route 226 remains on Bel-Red Road; what is market? Instead, should Route 226 provide proximate service to the OV, 130th Avenue NE, and Spring District stations? Bel Red Road is 830 feet south of the station on 132nd Avenue NE.

    East of Crossroads Mall, Route 226 now serves the old Route 230 East pathway east to Northup; there is a hill and Lakeridge apartments. The ELC conceptual route goes no further east than 164th Avenue NE.

    The conceptual route also goes east of Crossroads Mall and the B Line.

    1. Spring Blvd is close enough that it would probably be OK. I have a vague hesitation about removing service from Bel-Red Road in case it might hurt somebody, but I can’t think of anything in particular. 20th also has offices and retail that need bus service and has been underserved forever, and Spring Blvd would be four blocks from 20th and four blocks or less from Bel-Red Road.

       The biggest need is to connect 164th to Overlake Village Station. Otherwise everyone east of 160th has no good access to Link. From 164th & 8th it somehow takes 35 minutes to get to Bellevue TC, and I fear it might be even longer to get to South Bellevue.

       “East of Crossroads Mall, Route 226 now serves the old Route 230 East pathway east to Northup; there is a hill and Lakeridge apartments. The ELC conceptual route goes no further east than 164th Avenue NE.”

       That was the 226 before and after it was the 230, and it was the 231 in between. That’s where I grew up; my bus stop was at Lakeridge Apartments on the Northup side. The apartments were built while I lived there. I lean toward moving the route, because I no longer need that stop and I now have to ride all the way through the detour, which is why it takes 35 minutes. Moving it would affect single-family houses and that one apartment building. Without it, I’d grudgingly walk up the hill to 164th & 8th to catch the bus, but one alternative I haven’t tried would be to walk north on Northup (which is flat) to 164th & Northup. That might be OK. When I lived there there were no sidewalk or streetlights on Northup Way, so it was pitch black at night and a ditch next to the road, but now there are streetlights and a sidewalk on at least the west side of the street.

       Phase 2 floated the possibility of Metro Flex replacing fixed-route service east of 164th (or 156th, I forget which). I didn’t see that in later phases so I’m not sure if it’s still being considered. I wouldn’t like to have to use an app every day to get to transit, but it might be a compromise solution now.

       1. There hasn’t been many fatal bus/passenger accidents in the area, but that bus stop on Northup just north of 8th next to the apts you lived in is one of the few places one occurred.

       2. I didn’t live in the apartments; I lived in a house a few blocks further east. The apartments were built while I was in school. I never had trouble crossing the street. But I can see how cars might drive fast there and you might not see them because of the curves. I usually just crossed Northup to the bus stop, or walked up 8th to 164th for 7-11 or the 252 (which went to the U-District, the Lake Hills library, and Eastgate).

          The one time I walked along Northup Way at night was to a midnight movie at General Cinema (across from Fred Meyer). It was pitch black, and there was a narrow shoulder between the car lanes and the ditch, so I could only walk when an occasional car’s headlights went by, and I was basically immobile between them, because I didn’t want to walk into the street or into the ditch and couldn’t see them. I was glad to see Northup has streetlights now.

    2. > In Bel-Red the conceptual ELC Route 226 remains on Bel-Red Road; what is market? Instead, should Route 226 provide proximate service to the OV, 130th Avenue NE, and Spring District stations? Bel Red Road is 830 feet south of the station on 132nd Avenue NE.

       There’s a lot less overlap than you might think. From Bel-Red station to Overlake Village station is 1.5 miles gap. And it’s only that close at the bel-red station. For Overlake Village station to bel-red road is 3000 feet. Honestly for a lot of destinations for me to get to, I’d probably get off at bellevue downtown and transfer the 226

       I will admit it is a pretty confusing route looping around in almost a circle. Potentially it could connect at the east end over the overlake village instead, but it would add a lot of time to head north then back south

15. Not sure when the late edit on the restructure was added, but it just sunk in to me.

    RR B has been making the jog from 156th to 152nd pretty much ever sense there was a RR B, but now that there is going to be a Light Rail station on 152nd they suddenly decide to straighten it out and move the V 4 blocks away to 156th?

    So worse access to the Overlake Park and Ride Garage and no easy access to the Light Rail station at all? And if anyone was thinking of crossing over I-5 on the new ped bridge and accessing RR B instead of Link they are now totally SOL?

    Sam was wanting to know if they would move/add a RR B stop adjacent to the new station, but now Metro proposes to move it 4 blocks away instead? And with no real obvious straight shot walking path?

    Unbelievable.

    Or am I missing something? Because Metro’s format on presenting these changes doesn’t exactly make it clear what the changes actually are.

    1. It was added just before publication when I was searching for phase 3 but found the final. Writing an article about it now.

    2. The restructure is pretty easy to understand as long as you are looking at the right website. Here is the latest version: https://kingcounty.gov/en/dept/metro/programs-and-projects/east-link-connections. Here is the page for the RapidRide B: https://cdn.kingcounty.gov/-/media/king-county/depts/metro/documents/projects/east-link-connections/routes/b-line.pdf.

       It skips the Overlake Park and Ride Garage, but serves three stations: Downtown Bellevue, Redmond Tech and Downtown Redmond. This is a big improvement. The route is much straighter. A detour to Overlake Park and Ride is not warranted — not when many of the riders will be taking Link to get to the two main destinations on the B (Downtown Bellevue and Downtown Redmond).
       If you are on the train and want to get to someplace like Crossroads you simply get off at a different station. Other buses will serve Overlake Park and Ride, like the 222 and 223, as well as the peak-only 544.

       Redmond Tech is the bigger hub, with all-day peak service (via the 542). That is probably the tipping point, causing the 245 and B to connect there instead of Overlake Park and Ride. The buses could do both, but that means making detours and short changing 156th.

       1. My only concern with all of this is how good or poorly are nearby bus routes going to serve ELSL stations. Leave the opening of the full 2 Line, and the subsequent bus restructure out of it. With regard to just the starter line, where there now may be bus stops that are an unreasonable distance away from a starter line station, will bus stops be moved closer where necessary? I’m not usually a Metro-basher, but is it possible that they did not prepare for the day that the starter line might become a reality?

       2. I’m not usually a Metro-basher, but is it possible that they did not prepare for the day that the starter line might become a reality?

          I think both Metro and (the bus people of) Sound Transit basically ignored it. This has been in the works for quite a while. Lots of people talked about restructures, and the only thing anyone could come up with was truncating the 566 at Bellevue Transit Center. At this point, even that doesn’t look like it will happen.

          I think it is quite possible that Metro is going to add some temporary stops for this period. I think it is also quite possible that they feel like what is there is OK for now, even if it isn’t ideal. We may not be talking about that many riders (even if you made it ideal).

       3. @Sam,

          I’m not normally a Metro basher either, except in those rare cases when it is justified, but this one has me completely mystified.

          One of the advantages of buses is flexibility. Nothing is permanent with a bus. So I’d assume Metro would either move or add a stop at the new LR station. After all, that is where the demand will be. But instead they move existing service blocks away? And eliminate service to the PAR at the same time? Makes exactly zero sense.

          As per the charts, clearly they are rah rah charts meant to market Metro’s proposed changes. That is why they don’t detail what is being lost in the change. Basically Metro doesn’t want to encourage informed opinions. That says a lot.

       4. I’m not normally a Metro basher

          Ha! Get Real. You go way out your way to complain about Metro. My guess is half your posts are complaints about Metro. You complain about Metro doing something even though Sound Transit does the exact same thing — and arguably much worse.

          Just look at your other comment here! Holy cow, the RapidRide B is finally straightened out — something folks have wanted for a very long time. It is being done to focus more ridership to Link. This is exactly the type of thing you say you want Metro to do. It will speed up the bus, so that riders get a faster trip, while also increasing overall frequency on the system. This is something that the vast majority of people agree with, and yet you do nothing but bash them about it!

          Just admit it. You don’t like Metro. It doesn’t matter if things are getting better or worse — you will simply attack them at every opportunity. You even attack them for things they haven’t done! It isn’t clear what stops will be moved, but you feel like bashing them anyway.

       5. One of the advantages of buses is flexibility. Nothing is permanent with a bus.

          Nothing is permanent with a train, either. Every change costs money, it is just a matter of how much.

          So I’d assume Metro would either move or add a stop at the new LR station. After all, that is where the demand will be. But instead they move existing service blocks away? And eliminate service to the PAR at the same time? Makes exactly zero sense.

          Only because you aren’t looking at the big picture. What is happening with the B is fairly simple: It isn’t detouring to serve Overlake Park and Ride. Why do you think it needs to serve every station? That is silly. The bus should complement the train, not try and be a substitute for it.

          Consider some trips assuming a full East Link and the current network. For example Seattle to Crossroads. There are three possible ways of getting there:

          1) Take Link to the Bellevue Transit Center, then transfer to the B.
          2) Take Link to the Overlake Park and Ride and transfer there.
          3) Take Link to Redmond Tech and transfer there.

          Let’s put aside the first option for now and just assume people will stay on the train to get closer. There is very little difference in speed between options 2 and 3 — the most important consideration is frequency. The park and ride has the B and that’s it. In contrast, Redmond Tech has both the B and the 245. This means instead of four buses an hour, you have eight. If Metro staggers them appropriately, you go from a bus every 15 minutes to a bus every 7.5 minutes — in the middle of the day! This is one of the most frequent connections on the East Side, and that includes Link (when it finally gets there). So even now — when the RapidRide B detours — it makes sense to use Redmond Tech.

          Now consider what the actual trip would be like. Riders would much prefer the 245. It isn’t RapidRide, but it is actually more, well, rapid. It is faster since it doesn’t make the detour to the park and ride. By changing the route, the B is actually significantly faster. It will now be faster than the regular bus (imagine that).

          Now consider a trip to Crossroads from Downtown Redmond. Maybe you take the B, maybe you take Link and transfer. Either way it is better if the B avoids the detour to the Overlake Park and Ride. Or consider a trip from the UW to Crossroads, or the north end of 148th. The 542 runs express to Redmond Tech (it does not serve the park and ride). It is best if the B just stick to the main roads, rather than making a detour.

          As with any change though, you lose some coverage and gain some. So imagine this trip: https://maps.app.goo.gl/v3VDjTxmNxqpneJx9. This is the stop that will be lost once Link goes across the lake. Those riders will no longer be able to take the B from that stop to Downtown Bellevue. What will they do? Take the train! It should be less than a five minute walk (depending on how they designed the station). Now consider someone who lives at 28th & 156th. Imagine they are heading to Downtown Bellevue as well. They can walk to the station (https://maps.app.goo.gl/jHtrftot51cZ8QBy9) but that is quite a ways. Most people won’t walk that far. Now they have two options: The RapidRide B (which wouldn’t require any walking) or taking a combination of buses that run frequently to Link.

          So one place loses very little, while another place gains a lot. In other cases it is simply a swap (e. g. one area gets faster travel to Crossroad, another places loses it). But overall it just looks better. I’m often very critical of Metro restructures, but I think they got this right, and my guess is the vast majority of users feel the same way. There is really nothing at Crossroads that justifies the detour — not when Link serves it.

       6. Even pre-COVID during peak, I don’t remember many people getting on or off in the B’s Overlake diversion. The 541 also served Overlake, and ST was struggling to keep it running before COVID and our current driver shortage; IIRC there were days in late 2019 and early 2020 when ST had it suspended completely.

          The straighter, faster route will be a big improvement, and hopefully will translate into higher ridership for one of the worst-performing RR routes.

       7. @Skylar,

          “ The straighter, faster route will be a big improvement, and hopefully will translate into higher ridership for one of the worst-performing RR routes.”

          It will be hard to draw any conclusions from RR B ridership in the future. There will probably be some gains in RR B ridership as people use it to access Link, but there will be some loses in ridership as some people simply skip the bus all together and just use Link.

          So what will be the effect of skipping service to Link at OV Station and deleting service to the PAR? Hard to tell.

          I do find it odd though that in Seattle the 20 gets about 40% of the ridership of RR B, and does so with far less resources, yet is considered “underperforming” and is now scheduled for deletion. Go figure.

       8. I do find it odd though that in Seattle the 20 gets about 40% of the ridership of RR B, and does so with far less resources, yet is considered “underperforming” and is now scheduled for deletion. Go figure.

          Not all of the 20, just the part of the 20 they are getting rid of. The section from 45th to 85th underperformed when it was part of the 26, and underperforms now as part of the 20. The rest of it has done well and will likely do a lot better when it is connected to Greenwood.

          It would not surprise me if the same thing happened with the RapidRide B. The detour performed worse than the rest of the line. Since many riders will switch to Link, and it is an inferior transfer point, it makes sense to improve the route and make it straighter.

       9. “I do find it odd though that in Seattle the 20 gets about 40% of the ridership of RR B, and does so with far less resources, yet is considered “underperforming””

          It’s also lower than a lot of other routes in North Seattle. Context matters. The money is going to routes that will serve more people and a wider cross-section of demographics and destination types. The 62 is a few blocks away and is one of those higher-performing routes. It goes to Roosevelt Station if you want to reach Link without walking. It doesn’t go to the U-District, but neither did the 20’s predecessor the 26. While some people on Latona may want to go to the U-District, but many more probably want to get to the other 99% of the city and region. Metro has to make tradeoffs with limited resources. When the resources are greater, and Metro has fixed the underservice on higher-performing routes, then it can look at restoring a route like the 20 south of Northgate.

       10. I looked up the travel time to go an additional 3/4 mile to transfer to Link at Redmond Tech instead of Overlake Village. The schedule doesn’t have that interval but it has a close comparison: 51st to Redmond Tech (40th). The travel time is 3 minutes.

           So you have to spend 3 more minutes on the bus to save a lot more minutes going to downtown Redmond or downtown Bellevue or Seattle or wherever you’re going.

    3. I kinda wish overlake village light rail station was closer to 148th ave Ne rather than being in the middle of the 148 and 156. While it is definitely close to the apartment complexes; It is also kinda in an awkward place blocked by the sr-520 freeway on the northside and not close to any north/south road that makes it hard to connect with a bus. Though I understand the freeway interchange makes it hard to place any station near the 148th road.

       1. @WL,

          I think the first priority was to site the Redmond Tech Center Station, and the location ST chose was pretty much a no-brainer. After that it was just a question of where to place the intermediate station.

          148th definitely has more vehicular traffic, but it is also highly built and very congested. I just don’t think ST had a reasonable path forward to add a station at that location and still provide the station access and service that is required.

          Overlake Village is an easier site to build on, and it is easier to build in access for buses and peds. And it is one of the few situations where ST added LR service next to existing bus service.

          Unfortunately, as soon as ST sited their LR service next to RR B Metro said “ Olé!” And moved RR B four blocks east. So much for regional transit “partners”!

          But nothing is permanent in bus transit, so maybe someday RR B will get moved back. One can only hope.

       2. Was a bit curious so went and checked the eis alternatives.

          One interesting option was a retained cut under 148th avenue aka similar to how they are building the new freeway exit ramp under the avenue.

          Or alternatively another one was to enter 24th avenue at grade then turn north onto 152nd ave for a station next to the park and ride

          https://www.soundtransit.org/sites/default/files/documents/pdf/projects/eastlink/eis_2011/03_chapter2_alternatives.pdf#page=36

       3. I think the first priority was to site the Redmond Tech Center Station

          Yes, exactly. It is the main station in the area. It is the main transit hub, with not only the train, but express bus service from the UW. Thus other buses serve it as well like the B, the 245 and other (less frequent) buses.

          Overlake Village is an easier site to build on

          Yeah, and that is why they built it there. It is much cheaper to just follow the freeway. It’s not a great station, but it still works reasonably well.

          One interesting option was a retained cut under 148th avenue

          Interesting. I think the best option from a rider standpoint was probably 24th & 152nd. That puts you farther away from the freeway. It also opens up the possibility of 24th as a transit street, which is like 185th NE (in Shoreline) in that it crosses the freeway without dealing with freeway ramps. The problem with 24th is that there appears to be very little on either side. In general I assume that while many of the options held some advantages, none of them were worth the extra money.

          I think Sound Transit has made many mistakes when it comes to station placement, but this isn’t one of them.

       4. Unfortunately, as soon as ST sited their LR service next to RR B Metro said “ Olé!” And moved RR B four blocks east.

          Yes, because it is very important for Metro to enable a transfer that only a handful of people would ever use. Instead they improved the transfer that almost everyone will use (at Redmond Tech). The nerve. How dare they focus on improving the transit network.

       5. “Yes, exactly. It is the main station in the area. It is the main transit hub, with not only the train, but express bus service from the UW.”

          The retail and apartments are concentrated around Overlake Village, so that’s where the main transfer point should be. At Redmond Tech there’s little if you don’t work at Microsoft, you can’t stopover for errands while you’re transferring anyway, and there’s no place to go to if you have a long transfer wait. Unfortunately, the location of Overlake Village station doesn’t serve much of the village, but the solution to that is to move the station, not make Redmond Tech the transit center.

       6. The retail and apartments are concentrated around Overlake Village, so that’s where the main transfer point should be.

          Overlake Village is not the that big of a destination. It looks like a wash to me, but either way it is close enough to consider other factors, like access. Getting to the Overlake station requires a big detour for buses from every direction. It doesn’t serve the express bus from the UW. In contrast Redmond Tech is a basically “on the way” to everywhere. It does have a good connection to the UW express buses. It serves a major street (156th). If you are going to run your train in the freeway envelope, it is about as good as you are going to get.

          It would be different if the train wasn’t tied to the freeway. Probably the best station from a transit integration standpoint would be Crossroads. Not because of what is there, but because it is an obvious crossroad. If the stop was at 148th & 24th you could make a case as well (even though there isn’t much there). But the station is just in an awkward place to access from every direction.

          Oh and the same thing is true of Spring Station. This is one of the main stations when it comes to TOD, and yet very few buses will serve it. Not because there is nothing there, but because it is difficult to serve. That doesn’t mean that it will be a bad station, but it just means that riders there will be highly dependent on Link (or be prepared to walk a ways to a bus).

       7. “Overlake Village is not the that big of a destination”

          It’s the biggest hub in eastern Bellevue now that Crossroads has deteriorated to almost dollar stores, or considering Overlake and Crossroads the same village because they’re adjacent. People in east Bellevue go to Overlake for everyday shopping like my family did. If you transfer in Overlake, you can stopover to do an errand you need to do anyway. You can’t do any of that at Redmond Tech. And Overlake could become a bigger village with a wider variety of retail and services if Redmond wants it to be. Some of that is going in now: several mixed-use projects are underway, and there’s a half-dozen one-story strip malls that could be converted after that.

       8. “It would be different if the train wasn’t tied to the freeway. Probably the best station from a transit integration standpoint would be Crossroads.”

          Yes, there are two problems. One is that the main transfer point is Redmond Tech rather than Overlake-Crossroads. The other is that Overlake Village station is bunched up against 520 at 31st instead of next to Safeway or Crossroads Mall or some place in between.

          Metro is working around this problem, and it has to make tradeoffs, and sometimes its decisions may not be the best. But even this imperfect Link+Metro future is better than not having it.

       9. It’s the biggest hub in eastern Bellevue

          And I’m the tallest one on my block. Big deal. My point it isn’t a major destination, even for the East Side. The difference between it and Redmond Tech is fairly minor, while the difference when it comes to serving the station is huge. If it was like Downtown Bellevue or even Downtown Redmond than I could see the various twists and turns it takes to access it being worth it, but it just isn’t.

       10. Urban villages are important. Overlake is similar to Greenwood. Greenwood is a good place for buses to serve and transfer at, and so is Overlake.

       11. Overlake is similar to Greenwood.

           No it is not. Greenwood is easy to serve. Overlake is not. Greenwood is not a major destination — it is merely the intersection of two fairly good corridors. Overlake is not.

           If you are walking along Phinney Ridge, it isn’t obvious when Phinney ends and Greenwood begins. It is all about the same. You have restaurants and apartments along the main corridor pretty much everywhere north of the zoo. If you are walking along 85th, it is the same idea. Lots of apartments and shops surrounded by relatively high density single-family housing. Greenwood is basically an intersection of those two significant corridors. Nothing more, nothing less.

           The key reason that 85th & Greenwood is served is because it is easy to serve. The bus going east-west goes through there. The bus going north south-goes through there. It doesn’t require a detour. In contrast, Overlake does.

           Notice that no one has proposed service along 24th NE from Lake Sammamish to Northrup Way, even though it is a straight shot and manages to cross under not one, but two freeways while avoiding the traffic caused by the ramps? Because other than that little section between 156th & SR 520, there is nothing there! At most you have the occasional mini-mall.

           Or consider the Spring neighborhood. This is thee up-and-coming TOD neighborhood. It as if local leaders ordained: There shall be density there! So why, despite a brand new station serving the neighborhood, is there no perpendicular service. Again, you’ve got a fast street (130th) that crosses under the freeway without being bothered in the least by traffic. Something like this: https://maps.app.goo.gl/GByewm9VgRDWg6tV7 would be really useful if not for one, basic problem: The corridor is largely desolate! Turn on satellite view if you doubt me.

           This is one of the fundamental problems with serving the East Side. It really isn’t that hard to imagine a grid for many areas in Seattle because generally speaking, density never drops that low. The biggest obstacles are physical (both man-made and natural). In contrast, the East Side is full of areas where there is good density and then practically nothing just down the road. That means that the areas that have decent density — whether they are called Overlake or Spring — have trouble becoming part of a transit network because the streets to access them have practically nothing.

           What you are suggesting would be similar to having an east-west bus on 85th detour to serve Phinney Ridge. Sorry, but it just isn’t worth it. Phinney Ridge (a perfectly good, urban neighborhood like Greenwood) lacks good east-west service. They just have to deal with really good north-south service. People can transfer if they are headed to the UW, or some other Link location.

           The same is true of Overlake. It isn’t like the people who live, work or just visit Overlake will now have crappy transit. They will have some of the best transit in the region, despite not being a major destination. They will have excellent transit to the three main destinations of RapidRide B (Downtown Bellevue, Downtown Redmond and more of Microsoft’s sprawling campus). They will have an excellent one-seat ride to Seattle to boot. They will still have access to Crossroads Mall (an area you believe has “deteriorated”) just not as often. What exactly have they lost by making the B faster, and making transit along 156th a lot more frequent? Not much from what I can see.

    4. Metro held a two-stage public process to fix the B Line alignment. The planners and sounding board favored a straight B Line pathway on 156th Avenue NE. At the request of Redmond, management revised the ordinance to deviate to 152nd Avenue NE; the Redmond rationale was to spur development. This was specious, as the parcel would be served by both alignments. Eventually, it did develop. The deviation was not worthwhile from a ridership perspective Local routes deviated into the Overlake Village. So, yes, the timing is backward. Now 152nd Avenue NE has a Link station.

16. One thing really missing from SE Redmond Station is a pedestrian bridge over highway 202 connecting the station and the apartments nearby to the Fred Meyer and Target on the other side.

    TOD next to a rail station is nice, but people need to be able to walk between their homes and big shopping opportunities less than half a mile away as the crow flies.

    1. I double checked the redmond transportation plan to see if it said anything about it.

       The only closest thing I could find was about adding a bike trail connection to NE 76th street, but that is still north of SR-520

       https://www.redmond.gov/DocumentCenter/View/828/TMPChapter4PDF#page=48

       > a pedestrian bridge over highway 202

       We can’t build a pedestrian bridge over every road — or I guess more accurately if that is the bar one won’t be able to walk much. They could perhaps add a HAWK beacon (stoplight just for pedestrians) at the southwest corner of the home depot.

    2. You don’t need a pedestrian bridge. You will be able to cross the road either at NE 70th St, next to Chipotle, or at NE 76th St via a connection to the new bike/pedestrian path that will run alongside the light rail corridor direction downtown Redmond.

       I’ve been living here for years and crossing NE 70th St to get to Fred Meyer or Target beyond it has never been an issue, so I’m sure the younger generation will be able to cope too.

       1. I agree. The Link station will be at ground level (it goes under SR-520), so the pedestrian bridge would require a grade change. 202 is an arterial, not a freeway.

          If there’s a big redevelopment of that Fred Meyers/THD/Target shopping center into midrise that’s oriented towards the Link station, I could see a ped bridge a good investment, but right now a ped bridge would just dump into the back of the THD. For the homes east of 202, they are mostly a few blocks further south, where the sidewalk is fine.

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