Lynnwood Link Begins Simulated Service

107 Replies to “Lynnwood Link Begins Simulated Service”

1. Has anyone else noticed how the station numbering on the 1 and 2 lines posted inside the trains won’t mesh? Like if you’re traveling towards Redmond Tech from Northgate, you will first ascend from 45 to 53 (CID) and the descend back down through 47 (South Bellevue) to 40. It’s different from the schematic image posted in this blog. Am I crazy or will they have to renumber these stations once they connect?

   1. You are correct: it seems that the maps being posted in the trains have incorrect numbering. The image posted here is the corrected map, but you can see the incorrect numbering in the twitter photo. No word on whether the corrected maps are being installed now or later.

      1. I can see how this could be an easy mistake to make in production, but kind of an unfortunate flub given that they’ve set up stickers for the near term expansion and everything.

   2. The Urbanist article discussing this is here:

      https://www.theurbanist.org/2024/07/06/sound-transit-adds-lynnwood-link-to-system-diagrams/

      ST appears to not have updated the codes for the 2 Line when they reversed the number sequencing in the 1 Line and moved “50” to Westlake from CID. ST staff made a mistake but won’t call it a mistake.

      I do find it odd and maybe even worrisome that ST early diagrams show a place to insert the NE 130 St Station future name as well as the Downtown Redmond and Federal Way extension stations — but not the East Link connection and stations at Judkins Park and Mercer Island that should open earlier than both Federal Way Extension and NE 130th. Is it a harbinger of bad news for the East Link lake crossing?

      1. Based on the look of things they will have to completely redo the sign when the trains go over the water. In contrast, both extensions will look very similar. That being said, it would not surprise if 130th opens earlier than they are currently saying. That would fit with the ST pattern. It is pretty typical for a project to be later than they originally scheduled, then earlier than the updated estimate.

      2. I don’t think that ST can open Federal Way Link stations without East Link opening first across Lake Washington. They need the additional train sets stored at the East OMF. So the diagram has a serious logic problem by listing those stations but not the full East Link.

      3. I have to think omission of the 2 line stations on I90 is to keep anyone from interpreting the 1 and 2 lines are connected already somehow. At least with the 130th “coming soon” the rider can infer correctly they will be able to ride right past without issue.

      4. @Ian, you’d expect that ST could have done the same sticker cover thing they did with the other upcoming stations. the underlying map would be correct when the full 2 line opens, but until then the sticker would reflect the status quo.

         As it is, the federal way stickers are useless since as Al notes, those stations can’t be opened until the 1 line has access to east OMF, and entirely new maps will be required. Unless ST plans on cutting us down to 2-car trains 🤣

      5. Maybe someone was thinking about the secret plan to open Highline College Station next.

2. Does anyone know why the downtown station names vary so much? We’ve got Downtown Redmond, Bellevue Downtown, Downtown Seattle, Federal Way Downtown, Lynnwood City Center, etc. Seems like a consistent “city name Downtown” would have made more sense. I wonder if each city was allowed to pick the name?

   1. Is there a Seattle Downtown station?

      1. There is not a “Downtown Seattle” station, but a lot of routes will refer to Downtown Seattle as a destination.

         My understanding is that all new station names are developed through a community input process, so the order of “[City] Downtown” or “Downtown [City]” is by request. All it means is that anyone who gets the order wrong can be admonished by real transit riders who know the correct name of the station.

      2. no u

   2. “ I wonder if each city was allowed to pick the name?”

      ST put together updated naming policy guidance a few years ago:

      https://www.soundtransit.org/sites/default/files/documents/Resolution-R2021-14.pdf?utm_campaign=pu-federalway-20220412&utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery

      They seem to recently rely on a short-list of names that get voted in a popularity contest. It’s unclear how the short-list is developed, but it’s likely got each city as a major influencer. Each new extension has had a separate naming motion voted by the Board.

      One could argue that a city should have an “uptown” and maybe a “midtown” if they have a “downtown”. Also, a place like Bellevue (like Seattle) has more than one station considered downtown.

      I personally think that it’s rather lazy to use the word “Downtown” because it’s used at too many other stations already. To give a station more distinction, there are similar words that can be considered like “Central”, “Village”, “Plaza” or just “Center” (“City Center” seems redundant to me).

      In the future, I don’t think there is an upcoming “Downtown” Link station in a multi-station city except for Everett. Tacoma and Issaquah could consider it but their early station sites are many blocks away from the areas that they call “Downtown”. So outside of renaming an existing station it’s not much of a topic moving forward.

   3. I’m just glad that after 10K+ comments, “Symphony Station” is replacing “University Street Station.”

      Raise your cup to the Revolution!

      1. Yes!

         A clever composer could write a multi-movement composition called the “Renaming Symphony” (with chorus of course)!

      2. I remember a whole thread on this station renaming years ago. Surprised Symphony won, how many go to the Symphony let alone take transit there? Would have preferred Seneca Street which is a name I associate with Downtown Seattle much like “Pike” or “Yesler”. Harbor Steps would have been better too to emphasize that promenade from the station, in front of Benaroya Hall and Seattle Art Museum down to the waterfront. I use this station heavily for that 2nd Ave exit under Benaroya Hall to get to Target and Pike Place Market and avoids the shtshw on 3rd Ave.

      3. ST is quite slow. On the west side of Benaroya, the entrance to the DSTT station still says Metro Tunnel. At each DSTT station, there are trilons with out-of-date wayfinding maps from March 2019; the trilons are owned by ST; the faces were produced by Metro and SDOT. They lead intending riders astray; they direct riders to former DSTT routes 41, 74, 101, 102, 150, 255, and 550.

   4. Seems like locality preference to me, a “you say potato, I say potato” thing. E.G., California subdivides itself into “Northern” and “Southern” instead of “North California” and “South California”, while the Miami megalopolis prefers the term “South Florida” instead of “Southern Florida” or the more geographically correct “Southeastern Florida”. Bellevue and Federal Way like “Downtown” after the city name, while Redmond, Seattle and Kirkland like it before.

      1. Many southern states don’t attach “-ern” to regional names. Most northern states do. It’s East Tennessee or North Florida, but Eastern Illinois or Northern Minnesota.

         I’ve never heard West Washington!

         I think Lynnwood probably found “Downtown” too laughable to fathom as well as too generic. But Federal Way didn’t feel that way — even though station is on top of a hill! Federal Way Uptown would seemingly have been a better differentiator for Federal Way.

      2. Pretty much, like even in North America we have various terms for “transit center”

         US has…
         Transit Centers
         Intermodal Centers/Stations/Hub
         Park & Rides
         Transportation Centers
         Depots
         Gateways
         Transit Plazas
         Etc etc etc

         Canada has…
         Exchanges
         Terminals
         Loops
         Transit Centres
         Terminus (French)
         Etc etc

         For most people, downtown just implies the center of where people work, shop, live, etc even if it’s outside Seattle. It’s like ” calling a place “Main Street” or “high street” (as a UK example). It’s why I’m also so meh on this as I find it just fine. It’s different from University Street, which clearly needed an update.

      3. When I hear “Transit Center” I picture a couple of islands of bus bays literally in the middle of nowhere/sea of parking with nothing around for 1000+ ft. The antithesis of TOD…
         Lynnwood TC is a perfect example especially before Link, but countless examples literally everywhere.

         I like the term (and concept of) ‘Transit Terminal’ which is a historic term and was a hub for transit most often with stores and services within a mixed use building that the transit vehicles actually entered… wish we’d build more of these and less TCs.

3. Look a little further North too, Nathan. This is also happening September 14:
   https://www.communitytransit.org/transitchanges?q=2024%20beyond

   The changes are deep in content and strategy, as CT shifts fundamentally from a commuter, peak-hour network model to an all-day, more frequent service model. Readers of this blog are well used to following the evolution of transit use in King County as the Link system has expanded. This is a whole different deal for Snohomish County, and bears watching closely as a new set of population centers experiences one-two punch of new LRT and better local service for the first time.

   1. Thanks for the link. It’s been mentioned in a previous open thread (and I think an article?) but maybe it could brought up again as we’re getting close to the actual bus restructure date

   2. You are correct, I should have mentioned Community Transit in that sentence as well. I will update the article.

   3. I like that CT’s route restructure is a couple weeks after Lynnwood Station’s opening.

      By having a chunk of commuter bus riders still riding them downtown, it relieves a little pressure on northbound peak-of-peak trains, gives a reasonably precise estimate of how many more passengers will shift to the train after the restructure, and buys ST a couple weeks to adjust the Link schedule and service plan if necessary.

      That said, I hope CT is planning to extend the Swift Blue Line August 30, for several reasons, including not leaving ST having to guess how much more ridership will shift to the trains on September 16. The Blue Line is CT’s highest ridership route by far.

      That gap between Aurora Village and Shoreline 185th Station is a small distance relative to the total line, but the only place CT is actually extending rather than recombining or retracting service. A two-week wait for that part of the restructure would be consequential and unfortunate.

      1. @Brent White,

         As stated in the link that was provided, the CT restructure occurs on Sept 14th. Meaning the Swift Blue extension also occurs on Sept 14th.

         All the other bus restructures also occur on Sept 14th.

      2. If only there were a way for the agency to temporarily add that extra stop for a couple of weeks — call it a “re-route” — and to find an extra four drivers a day to add due to the “re-route”.

         Metro has done re-routes many times, sometimes permanently, without having to get further permission from the county council.

         Having that gap between the Blue Line and the 1 Line for two weeks will make both CT and ST look bad in the eyes of frustrated passengers surprised to have to wait two more weeks to have the new connection.

         As I said, the rest of the CT retructure is splices-and-dices, and retractions of Link-redundant express segments. Plus frequency investments that aren’t mentioned in CT’s most recent restructure link.

   4. I think that webpage has been out for a long time. I often reference it — they did a good job with the presentation. There are a bunch of interesting changes. I may be biased because I know someone from Whidbey Island, but the Mukilteo changes seem pretty big. Every time you get off the ferry in Mukilteo there will be a bus there that will get you to Lynnwood fairly quickly (and from there to Seattle). In contrast I think most of Edmonds isn’t getting much.

      1. It looks like the intent is to have local busses departing Edmonds to the light rail every 15 minutes, with one route going to MLT (130) and the other to Lynnwood (102), and in addition the new ST route 909 (Edmonds – MLT all day express). Not too shabby.

      2. I live in Langley on Whidbey Island and we’re all super excited over here for the new 117 bus and additional Sounder North runs. We’re working with Island Transit to start promoting the connections too, as we have pretty decent transit connections to the ferry on the Whidbey side. We’ve been missing reliable, all-day service 7 days/wk on the Mukilteo side, so this is going to be a major improvement for residents and hopefully for visitors too.

      3. I like how CT is turning two mixed milk runs into one long milk run, and the straightest line between Mukilteo Ferry Dock and Lynnwood Station.

         That’s one more where CT could have moved up the route changes by temporarily calling them “re-routes”. The map of the current Lynnwood-Mukilteo route looks downright painful, and will continue to be so an unnecessary two extra weeks.

4. I hope the Fare Ambassadors stand down on the false-positive warnings until August 30.

   If you try to tap off and then tap back on at the same station, the reader rejects the second attempt to tap. If you then get checked, the Ambassador says you failed to tap back on and issues a warning. This is a bug that seems to have been introduced with NGORCA. At any rate the passengers are not at fault, and ST should cease and desist with the unwarranted warnings.

   1. If I’m understanding you correctly, if you “accidentally” tap the same card twice (once to “tap off”, and again to “tap on”) at the same station, it cancels recognition of the first tap? That seems like a really weird bug to have for a relatively common use case – tapping back into the same station less than two hours after departing that station.

      1. It does not cancel the tap-off. It merely says you tapped twice.

         (And this will become moot on August 30.)

   2. “If you try to tap off and then tap back on at the same station, the reader rejects the second attempt to tap. If you then get checked, the Ambassador says you failed to tap back on and issues a warning. ”

      WHAT? I’ve gotten the second rejection, and I sometimes go back to the reader if I don’t remember whether I’ve tapped. I assumed that “You tapped twice” meant the same as “Pass Back” on the bus readers: it ignores the additional taps.

      1. Whatever the phrasing, a friend of mine got an unwarranted warning for tapping off and failing to tap back on, so I checked it out and found the bug.

5. I hope the station numbers can be made to correspond to One Bus Away station numbers, so that there aren’t two numbering schemes.

6. I predict ST Express 515 will be very short-lived, replaced by having a stop at Lynnwood Station that 510 and 512 riders demand be added on 510.

   And then the truncated 512 will be short-lived as those wanting to skip Ash Way will drown out the nearly nonexistent Ash Way boarders.

   And then CT, ET, and ST will put their heads together to combine CT 904 and 905 with ST 510 to create a freeway BRT route serving Marysville and Stanwood with decent frequency, all day.

   1. That would be a huge win for transit in North Snohomish County. I certainly hope your prediction is accurate.

   2. I think the 515 is mostly symbolic. They ran it because Snohomish County was promised more capacity on Lynnwood Link and felt like ST needed to do something. But they picked the cheapest, least-useful option — a route that only makes sense if the train is crowded (or traffic is really light and the bus is faster). I don’t think ST is worried about crowding — but since they promised an express bus, they provide it.

      There isn’t much point in having the 510 stop at Lynnwood. There are different buses for that (the 512, 201/202). It is possible the 512 will skip Ash Way (especially during peak) since the 201/202 makes the same connection and the 513 also runs as an express between Ash Way and Lynnwood. But in the past Ash Way had a lot of riders (more than Everett) and they may want to retain their express to Link.

      And then CT, ET, and ST will put their heads together to combine CT 904 and 905 with ST 510 to create a freeway BRT route serving Marysville and Stanwood with decent frequency, all day.

      The 201/202 run a combined 15 minutes. They split in Marysville but both serve Smokey Point. Not an express at that point (like the 905/907) but hard to imagine they get enough riders to provide an all-day express.

   3. Yes I agree that STX 515 will be short-lived. It was always called “temporary”, with a planned elimination when 2 Line finally runs through to Lynnwood. So the question is more about when it will be eliminated rather than if.

      – If Link never gets too crowded it will go very soon. Riders will choose Link every time. Morning riders (busiest direction at that time) from Lynnwood will always get a seat anyway as it’s the first station. Afternoon riders will not likely want to leave a DSTT station platform even if they find a train crowded because of the journey to get there — so it will take multiple days of experiencing crowding before many will proactively not descend into a tunnel station. Because it will take weeks to change rider behavior as well as riders will prefer the novelty of using a new service, Route 515 won’t get hardly anyone for the first month or two and that may be enough to kill it.

      – If there are crowding issues, it will run until 2 Line begins simulated service or maybe last until opening day.

      – If some awful thing happens and trains can’t cross Lake Washington for several more years, I think ST will cobble together a Westside 2 Line with Judkins Park as the terminus — and eliminate STX 515.

      1. If CT doesn’t change their schedule for the first couple of weeks then the 515 will be very empty. People will just take the CT buses (or take Link). Then Link will get more crowded and the 515 may become popular.

         There is another scenario where the 515 might be popular. Presumably it will be like the 510 downtown. The bus serves different stops. Some of these are far enough away from Link stations to be popular. Then there are the times when traffic is low. For example the week of Thanksgiving. In the morning especially I would expect a bus to beat Link quite easily. It would be ironic if the bus is more popular on the days when Link isn’t that crowded.

      2. If the 515 is rolling out on August 30, I would much prefer CT be allowed to deploy those drivers to the Swift Blue Line pre-CT-route-restructure extension.

   4. I can see Ash Way becoming more important once the garages at Lynnwood and MLT fill up. Similar to how Lynnwood and MLT had very few riders when Northgate first opened, but now the parking at Northgate sometimes fills up (or fills up enough that people think it is full and don’t bother trying). Ash Way to Lynnwood is going to feel like Mountlake Terrace to Northgate is now.

      1. Once Link goes as far as Ash Way or Mariner, ridership at Lynnwood will fall. The question becomes what a revised service structure would be as to how big that fall should be. The giant parking garage will probably be quite empty once link goes further north. It’s an uncomfortable fact that ST never sizes garages to ultimate demand — instead defaulting to whatever arbitrary number gets written into a referendum.

      2. “Once Link goes as far as Ash Way or Mariner, ridership at Lynnwood will fall. The question becomes what a revised service structure would be as to how big that fall should be. The giant parking garage will probably be quite empty once link goes further north. It’s an uncomfortable fact that ST never sizes garages to ultimate demand — instead defaulting to whatever arbitrary number gets written into a referendum”.

         I think your first comment is true for any suburban terminus because so many riders get there by bus or car so they choose whichever is closest and has parking capacity. Every time Link is extended the prior terminus will see boardings fall.

         The real key is whether overall ridership when combining the stations increases significantly. Many think ridership will decline at Northgate Link when Lynnwood Link opens, which is likely correct, but the question is whether the cost was worth it to spend so many billions so someone from Shoreline can access Link in Shoreline rather than drive or bus to Northgate. Seems to me larger park and rides at Northgate make more fiscal sense than extending Link to Everett, and instead increase Link stations in the urban core (which doesn’t include WS or Ballard IMO).

         How many will actually board at Ash Way is the better question, and how hard was it for them to get to a station farther south.

         ST sized parking garages based on its own pre-pandemic ridership projections, which were at least 1/3 higher than ridership today BEFORE reaching the more suburban parts of Link. It also had to listen to cities that would have stations and wanted parking garages BECAUSE they are suburbia, and believed ST’s ridership projections, and this included some very expensive garages along Sounder S. in Sumner, Auburn and Kent who feel left out as Sounder service is cut and Link does not serve them well.

         Once those garages were included those cities were going to fight to keep them, just like West Seattle will fight any proposal to switch WSLE for buses.

         To some extent the size of any park and ride is “arbitrary”, and some on the eastside would argue pre-pandemic they were arbitrarily low whereas today they are arbitrarily high, in some cases like S. Bellevue massively high.

         Add a pandemic and work from home onto a decline in downtown Seattle travel onto ST’s inflated ridership projections to sell the levies and you see park and ride capacity swing from too little in many areas (when served by buses like the 550) to too high today. Mode has very little to do with it.

         Cities like Mountlake Terrace and Shoreline WANTED to believe Link would transform them into vibrant cities and communities with higher income folks commuting to downtown Seattle for work, so WANTED to believe they would need very large park and rides paid for by others. Same with Sumner (of all places), Auburn and Kent.

         I am sure Mariner and Ash Way want the same. Since about the only way to get to Link in these very undense areas is by car (including a park and ride serving a bus) you need very large parking garages if Link is going to transform your city into a vibrant hub.

         Whether it happens we will see. If Link does transform these outlying areas then they will need very large park and rides. If not, cities like Sumner, Auburn and Kent still think a large park and ride paid for by others is useful, and what they were promised. Better too big then too small is their thinking with other people’s money (including their own, except once paid to ST it isn’t “their” money any more).

      3. The Metro Northgate parking garage will be partially closed off right after Lynnwood Link opens. That, and the high cost of parking in the acres of Trantor north of the station, will certainly help induce parking at the suburban station.

         Ash Way P&R is a giant surface parking sewer, and a long scary walk to the bus stops (themselves very lightly used) should that sewer ever come close to filling up.

      4. Those who find the Lynnwood car garage filled are more likely to head south to another station garage than to park at Ash Way and catch a bus to Lynnwood Station.

         Or park at Everett Station. Or South Everett Freeway Station, which will be served by more routes, including CT’s Stanwood, Marysville, and Lake Stevens expresses to Lynnwood.

      5. Some of the Northgate garage spaces are owned by the mall and contractually obligated to the mall tenants, so ST had to replace those it demolished during construction.

         During EIS planning Metro surveyed the P&R cars and found most of them weren’t from the north, but from east and west of the station (Licton Springs, Maple Leaf, Lake City). ST asked the community whether it wanted a larger P&R or bus/bike/ped access improvements. Unlike other P&R stations, the vast majority of respondents said they wanted bus/bike/ped improvements, and the only reason they drove to the transit center was the poor access of those other modes. The ped bridge greatly improved access from the west. The bus feeders aren’t that much better so that’s probably a disappointment. I don’t know how much sidewalk/bike improvements from the east were made.

         So the surprise is not that the P&R was replaced but that it’s not 2-3 times larger. Be thankful for what you can get, and that the Northgate station-area community was so urban-minded. They were a model for other station areas.

      6. “but the question is whether the cost was worth it to spend so many billions so someone from Shoreline can access Link in Shoreline rather than drive or bus to Northgate.”

         Right now, Shoreline doesn’t have great access to the I-5 expresses. Frequently, the fastest option to downtown Seattle is an hour long slog on the E. The 346 to Northgate then Link adds about 10 minutes to this time.

         Even now, the I-5 expresses really aren’t that fast at peak period. Back in May I took a 512 from Everett to Northgate and it rarely got about 20 mph. And this was in mid-morning, so after the real peak commute time and before the express lanes going into Seattle closed and worked their magic on southbound traffic.

         So I can see Lynnwood Link being very helpful to a lot of people in Shoreline. It has the potential to help people get to a number of different places faster than the existing service.

         North of Lynnwood, I don’t think the current proposal does too much though.

      7. Ash Way P&R is a giant surface parking sewer, and a long scary walk to the bus stops (themselves very lightly used)

         That is the second time you claimed that Ash Way has very few riders. I’m not sure where you get your data, but it is worth looking at the ST reports. Here is the ST boardings per station:

         Everett: 1,146
         South Everett: 813
         Ash Way: 967
         Lynnwood TC: 1,496
         Mountlake Terrace: 592

         That doesn’t include the dozen or so buses that serve Ash Way including the 201/202 (which runs every 15 minutes all-day). Ash Way is quite similar to every other major bus stop in Snohomish County. https://www.soundtransit.org/sites/default/files/documents/2020-service-implementation-plan.pdf

      8. Sceptic, I would venture that heavy majority of commenters on the blog agree with your preference to “increase Link stations in the urban core.” I certainly agree.

         The thing is, adding a station to a bored tunnel if it wasn’t “roughed in” during the tunnel’s construction is nosebleed expensive, and in some cases, simply impossible.

         A hole to access the earth around the tunnel where it is desired must be dug. It doesn’t have to be full size of the completed station, but it does have to be big enough to get large equipment in. It’s cheaper if a station-sized hole can be dug all the way from the surface, but sometimes the station is larger than any plausible surface parcel or even a few. In those instances, the station box has to be “mined” from the smaller hole that is available.

         In either case, a station box has to be constructed around the existing tubes, including supporting them during and after construction. There are chicken-and-egg contortions getting the box floor under the tubes, without having them buckle from lack of support.

         Then, after the statioisbox is largely finished while trains roll unimpeded through the tunnel, the compression rings can be removed to give access to the tracks in order to construct the platforms.

         Further complicating things is that stations can only be added to stretches of tunnel which are straight or very gently curving, so the platforms can be close to the traincar sides, and the grade can’t be much different from flat.

         It is enormously complicated, so it’s rarely attempted, especially in a tunnel with trains every three minutes.

      9. Then, you’d have to come up with service alternatives (e.g. single tracking) for weeks, if not months, as the concrete shell is removed and the platform built next to the track. I guess you could try to do the work only during the few hours a night the trains aren’t running, but that would take an extremely long time.

         Then you have to coordinate construction of the other half of the station while the second track is unwrapped as trains run on the first track. Again, you could do this only at night, but having only a few hours a night (for less than one full working day per week) multiplies construction timelines and costs. This is typically an extraordinarily expensive and/or unacceptable effort, hence adding new stations to tunneled track is generally considered infeasible.

         Seattle Subway has long advocated for roughing in wyes and potential infill stations in new extensions, but this has gained little traction in ST’s extension planning or design.

      10. Basically, we’re practically permanently stuck with only one station between Westlake and UW (Capitol Hill), as it is practically impossible to add any stations along the spiral curve up to Capitol Hill, or along the 4% slope between CH and the Montlake Cut.

          However, if you (Rail Skeptic) are thinking of a different part of the “Urban Core” which could use infill stations, I would be interested to hear about it.

      11. the question is whether the cost was worth it to spend so many billions so someone from Shoreline can access Link in Shoreline rather than drive or bus to Northgate

          Not just Shoreline. Everyone in Snohomish County has a better connection to Link. Northgate is not especially good as a terminus. It isn’t easy for the buses to reach the station, especially when there is a lot of congestion. There is no HOV connection from the north (ironically there is a great one from the south). Lynnwood is much better in that regard — it has an outstanding HOV connection to and from the north (that can be used any time of day).

          There are other alternatives to the two extremes as well. For example, imagine if they did this:

          1) Built an HOV ramp from the north end of I-5 to Northgate.
          2) Took the savings and ran buses from Shoreline and Snohomish County and ran them a lot more often.

          Without knowing what the savings are, it is hard to say how this compares with the “no build” or Lynnwood Link alternatives. The same goes with other, similar approaches. Maybe ramps to Northgate are extremely expensive, but ramps to places like 130th, 145th or 155th are not. If that is the case then the maybe the best option is to extend Link a bit farther and add those ramps there. Even if it costs a little bit more than ending at Northgate it is still better to extend it. From what I can tell though, it doesn’t look especially easy. Even Mountlake Terrace (which has an HOV-freeway-lane bus stop) is not ideal. There is no place for the buses to turn around. They could serve the stop but then they have to work their way over to the exit lane. This hurts bus efficiency. The only obvious terminus is Lynnwood. I’m not saying it is the best value, but it isn’t clear there is a better one.

          In contrast, that is not the case to the north. You can’t do any better than Lynnwood in terms of a bus connection. If you are on an express bus from Everett (heading to Seattle) then it really doesn’t matter if you transfer at Ash Way or Lynnwood. In fact, Ash Way is actually worse right now! To make Ash Way a good terminus would not require much work though. They actually have a stub in place: https://maps.app.goo.gl/zDpxjLXHFYr7yvJK8. But as is obvious in that picture, they already have an HOV connection to the south. Thus after you do the freeway work the Link extension adds very little value. An express bus from Everett would stop at Ash Way then continue to Northgate quite easily. Again, it doesn’t make much difference if riders transfer at Ash Way or Lynnwood.

          An extension beyond Northgate is dubious. But it is quite possible it is worth it. In contrast any extension beyond Lynnwood looks like it will benefit very few people, but cost a lot. You would be better off completing that stub (to Ash Way) and then putting the money into bus service for Snohomish County.

      12. My comment about the wisdom of Lynnwood Link and then Everett Link as opposed to more Link in the urban areas was mostly in general, as though ST and the subareas had thought about this more when first designing Link.

          I was responding to Al’s question about how much new extensions like Lynnwood Link increase TOTAL ridership and how much do they simply spead total ridership out among stations, i.e. switching boardings at Northgate to Lynnwood Link. It is the difference between boardings and riders. Ridership may stay the same even though boardings switch from the current terminus to upstream.

          Obviously adding stations to Line 1 would be very difficult now if the line is a subway. Urban stations I would have liked to see are First Hill (probably two), if there is going to be a second tunnel a midtown station and Belltown station, maybe even another station in DSTT1 between in downtown Seattle. Seattle is very steep and yet Line 1 runs only north/south along 3rd, meaning it doesn’t serve east/west which is hilly. And a second station between U. Dist. and Northgate other than Roosevelt.

          N. King Co. spent a lot of money running Link to the Snohomish Co. Border. My thought was more along the lines of Ross’s comment. The high cost of Link makes it better in urban areas, and for me that is basically Northgate to Sodo. And east to west too. The rest is residential Link, even Roosevelt. So find a way to get folks to Link (buses and park and rides) where the urban areas begin.

          With subarea equity I understand that really wasn’t a trade that was possible. So if there is the subarea revenue, Link will extend to Everett, a long distance, with long stop spacing. Ok. Will many board or ride along that line? I don’t think anyone cares because that really goes to operational costs and farebox recovery. Build it and they will have to find a way to fund operations and maintenance. Will total RIDERSHIP increase significantly when Lynnwood Links opens over folks from the north getting to Northgate to catch Link? Or will total boardings simply be spread out more? We will see.

          For several billion dollars for both North King Co. and Snohomish Co. to build it I hope so. Otherwise why not run Link to Bellingham if it will make it easier for those riders to catch Link?

          At the same time WSBLE might not be affordable, in part because of the cost of running Link to the borders of Seattle north/south and stations at Graham and 130th. Probably a station at 4th Ave. S. is now unaffordable. Same with midtown and Belltown. Which stations in the long run are better choices if revenue does not allow all of ST 3 is a debate.

          If you live in WSLE you think that is the best use of funds. If you live in Ballard you think BLE is the best use of funds. Downtown thinks DSTT2 to SLU is the best use of funds, but strangely without a station at Midtown or in Belltown (or First Hill). Does anyone think the actual cost of stations at 130th and Graham St. is the best use of funds. If they do they live nearby.

      13. Being able to not deal with I-5 at all will be huge for Shoreline, Mountlake Terrace, and Lynnwood park and riders as well as bus riders.

          For drivers, in addition to traffic on the freeway itself, some of those on-ramp queues are ridiculous in the morning, as is the NB ramp from Northgate in the evening. Just that ramp alone has taken me ten minutes (The bus skips the queue and stops closer to the rail than you can park. Definitely park north and take the bus!). The comment above that Northgate park and ride tends to be more people from the east/west versus from the North seems counter intuitive, until you account for these factors. Once you have battled the traffic to Northgate, the rest of the way to downtown is comparably not that bad in the morning. (During the afternoon when there’s an event though, forget about it LOL).

          For Shoreline, Mountlake Terrace, and Lynnwood bus riders, Lynnwood Link will eliminate a major transfer penalty. The current situation is not “just riding the bus a little longer.” For most of us, it is a second bus. It is currently not very efficient to take a local bus from most of the area to an I-5 express bus to the light rail. All this changes in the next 1 – 2 months, which is very exciting.

      14. Does anyone think the actual cost of stations at 130th and Graham St. is the best use of funds? If they do they live nearby.

          That isn’t true. I’ve talked to plenty of professional transit planners as well as amateur planners and they agree that these infill stations are definitely worth the money. They are fairly cheap compared to a new extension (or new lines). The cost per rider (or subsidy per rider) is likely to be quite low.

          The two stations are quite different. Graham is more about getting walk-up ridership. They may eventually run a bus on Graham, but there is no guarantee. 130th is the opposite. Like all of Lynnwood Link, it is unlikely you will get that much walk-up ridership. That is the problem with running so close to the freeway. But 130th connects very well to large urban areas on both sides. The time savings for these riders is very big. It also makes it easier for Metro to provide a decent network for the area. Without the station at 130th there is a very big gap. If you run a bus along the corridor, it doesn’t connect well with Link. If you don’t run a bus along the corridor you force a lot of people to detour. This is why planners like stations like these.

          I also think the Redmond extension is worth it. I live nowhere near there, and it is quite possible I’ll never take East Link that far east. Likewise, I’ll probably use the Graham Street Station once every decade, but it is clear it is a good value. I will definitely use the 130th station (a lot) but I would support it even if I lived in some other part of town.

      15. “I was responding to Al’s question about how much new extensions like Lynnwood Link increase TOTAL ridership and how much do they simply spead total ridership out among stations, i.e. switching boardings at Northgate to Lynnwood Link.”

          Each of these will add more than zero riders:

          A) The Northgate transfer adds 10-20 minutes to travel time waiting for a 512. People often get to the bus stop right when a 512 has just left. First-time riders have to figure out which combination of escalators/elevators go down to street level and where the bus stop is, since there are no signs at platform level telling you how to continue north, so they doubly miss the 512.

          B) Link will run every 10 minutes instead of every 15-30 minutes.

          C) That will improve trips between Northgate and Lynnwood, and also trips between Roosevelt/UDistrict/Capitol Hill and Lynnwood.

          D) Even if you have to take a bus feeder from Ash Way to Lynnwood, you can take whichever of the 512, 201, 202, or Swift Orange comes first — you don’t have only the 512.

          E) New all-day express-level service in Shoreline.

7. First day of Lynnwood Link testing. At Westlake at noon the platform displays said “Lynnwood”. Two women were confused because the last train had said Lynnwood too and they were going to Northgate. They asked the platform guard and he explained it, and later an audio announcement explained it. When my train came it said “Northgate”. I said I was with the Seattle Transit Blog and we were wondering how much confusion it would cause, and here’s two people being confused on the first day. They thought there would be a lot more confused people, and they wouldn’t always hear the audio announcement. One if the women said she’s from DC and rides transit regularly, and she was still confused.

   1. It should probably say “Lynnwood Via Northgate”

   2. Weird, I was assured that having mismatched digital signage would be no big deal.

   3. “1 Line to Lynnwood City Center now arriving.”

      Get used to your new message.

      1. Why is the station called Lynnwood City Center?

      2. Because that’s what Lynnwood wanted?

         https://www.soundtransit.org/get-to-know-us/news-events/project-updates/permanent-station-names-adopted-0

      3. It makes people think Lynnwood has a city center. Now it just needs the city center part.

      4. What’s wrong with the names Lynnwood Station, or South Lynnwood Station? Those are two good, solid station names. Lynnwood City Center is isn’t even close to being an accurate name.

      5. If you think City Center is bad, Aurora Colorado chose “Metro Center” for a light rail station — and it is literally surrounded on three sides by vacant land (with a “town center” shopping mall parking lot on the fourth side).

      6. “What’s wrong with the names Lynnwood Station, or South Lynnwood Station? Those are two good, solid station names. Lynnwood City Center is isn’t even close to being an accurate name.”

         Correct me if I am wrong, but prior to Covid, Lynnwood had plans to build a fairly significant TOD across the street (200th) from the Station with restaurants and retail. Haven’t researched it but I believe those plans are on hold or maybe even nonexistent now.

      7. Lynnwood still wants a Bellevue-like downtown as far as we know.

   4. Quoted from the previous open thread
      > It’s no big deal. There will be plenty of signs, audible announcements, and secondary labeling in the stations indicating the trains only go as far as NGS. And none of the digital tools will indicate otherwise.

      The main issue with the mismatched station isn’t that people are going to think it reaches Lynnwood — but that people unfamiliar with the link system, will think that it is the southbound train instead of the correct northbound train.

      I agree it’s not too big a deal, but it is still a moderate amount of confusion for tourists visiting as they’ll say try to find the “northgate bound” train but instead see the displays say “lynnwood”

      1. I wish the verbal announcements would include major destination before the terminus. E.g. “This is the train to University of Washington, downtown Seattle, SeaTac Airport, and Federal Way.”

   5. Sam thanks you for checking out the Northgate/Lynnwood confusion.

      Note to staff on the northbound platforms: If you see someone who is waiting for a train that is not packed, and they decline to board, the odds are high that they are confused.

      Sam, your assignment is to sit near a sleeping passenger on a northbound train, ride all the way to Northgate, observe how security handles the sleeper, and then interview them.

      1. I did see more security guards on platforms today, perhaps to dispel confusion. The one at noon did, and I saw two others at Roosevelt this afternoon.

8. Roosevelt station is nice and cool if you want a break from the heat. There’s also a cool breeze as you go down the escalators or a train approaches.

   Westlake and Capitol Hill stations are OK but not excellent. I think the passage to the southwest Capitol Hill entrance may be warmer than the core part of the station. None of them was as hot as non-air-conditioned storefronts get.

9. It is too bad that South King County isn’t getting this much work done. Just an afterthought down here.

   1. Federal Way Link is opening in 2026. It would have opened sooner, but they had to design and build the region’s longest long-span bridge to get over unstable soils discovered during construction. It was on the front page of last Sunday’s Seattle Times.

      1. Don’t buy that. They neglected our region so what should have been opened now is delayed because they didn’t want to do the work to get it done on time. If they had this would have been discovered long ago and fixed. Also, the Kent-Des Moines Station is not impacted by this. It could have opened on-time. Why not open it? Because South King County is worthless to Sound Transit. I mean I did ask why to Sound Transit and never got an answer.

      2. I’m sorry you feel that way.

      3. Just stating facts based on experiences I have had with Sound Transit. We have to yell twice as loud to be heard half as much in South King County. That was proven when Sound Transit tried to ignore Kent and Des Moines when planning where the tracks would go and where the maintenance would be built. We wouldn’t shut up and wouldn’t let up the pressure to be heard.

      4. And again, the Kent-Des Moines station is not impacted by this. It could open and the 1 line could go there. They are not opening it until 2026. Again, why? I have asked this question to Sound Transit and cannot get an answer. The project manager doesn’t know why.

      5. @Mathew P Renner,

         “And again, the Kent-Des Moines station is not impacted by this. It could open and the 1 line could go there. ”

         You are absolutely correct. ST could open a Federal Way Link Extension Starter Line as far as KDM Station. That part of the line has is not impacted by the issue with the unstable soil, and it is already partly in operation in support of distributed storage to allow Lynnwood Link to open.

         It’s sort of odd that this part of the line is at least partially in operation in support of Lynnwood Link way up north, but there hasn’t even been any discussion of opening it in support of the local FW population.

         That said however, any FWLESL would almost certainly need to come after the Full ELE extension opens, and it is unclear how much time there would be between that opening and the opening of the full FWLE.

         The people that decide this are the politicians on the board, and in particular those politicians who represent FW. You should contact your local representative and see if this can at least get this elevated to the study level. But without your local elected officials onboard, you are not likely to have much success.

         But I do see a FWLESL as useful, and possibly easy to implement. Its all a matter of schedule. And the suport of your local elected officials.

   2. Metro likes to ignore the concept of induced demand when it comes to transit in South King.

      South King has always crappy transit, so ridership has been poor, and density is low, because there is no place to build around, unlike the well-served street-car nodes in the north. They use the low ridership to justify stiffing South King on transit. Transit is crap, so ridership is low.

      Rinse and repeat.

      1. Hard facts.

      2. > density is low, because there is no place to build around

         They could help break the cycle themselves. There’s nothing stopping them from upzoning much more.

         I mean look at bothel or totem lake they’ve built apartments. What exactly is south king’s excuse.

      3. The population of King, Pierce, and Snohomish counties is roughly 4 million. King accounts for a bit over 2 million, and Pierce is just under 1 million, and Snohomish is also under 1 Million. So even if Pierce county’s population is closer to 20% than 25% of the tri-county total, the question should be asked, what percentage of Link service will Pierce County receive?

      4. Metro likes to ignore the concept of induced demand when it comes to transit in South King.

         That is simply not true. All routes consider the impact of frequency. South King County has a more fundamental problem: low density. This manifests itself in various forms, but it boils down to that basic problem. So much of the region lives in low-density housing. The destinations are also low-density. Proximity and density and go together. It is one thing to have pockets of low-density in a high-density area. For example Magnolia is low-density. But it is so close to downtown Seattle (which is very high density) that it manages to get decent ridership despite the convoluted routing and infrequent service. But in South King the bulk of the housing is low-density, which mans that a lot of people live quite a ways from their destination (which itself is low-density).

         Serving a very-large, low-density area is very expensive, and ridership is bound to be low.

      5. I think you and I are saying largely the same thing. You as an apologist, me as someone who thinks good transit in itself can be used as a catalyst for increased density. Induced demand.

      6. It is also worth noting that Kent (as an example) has pretty good transit. The 150 provides a 15-minute (all-day) connection to Downtown Seattle and a lot of places along the way. The 160 provides 15-minute service to Auburn and Renton. It has peak (and reverse peak) train service to various Sounder locations. There are various buses that connect to other places (like the colleges or SeaTac).

         Yet ridership on all of those routes is poor. The 150 performs worse than just about every Seattle bus (in ridership per mile). There is no question that running the 150 every 15 minutes results in more riders than if you ran it every half hour. But you still don’t get that many riders. They built it. Not that many came.

      7. Because it takes the 150 over an hour to get 20 miles to Union Station. Frequency is only one metric. It’s only 20 minutes via Sounder (I know, we’ve talked about this).

      8. Cam, do you think time of day has anything to do with it? Transit is not just about geographic coverage; it’s about time of day coverage too.

         For example: One thing I’ve noticed in Seattle is that Metro cuts back service on many routes between 6 and 7. If someone started their trip far away before 6, they may not get to the last transfer point until almost 7. So buses at 3 pm aren’t that crowded but buses at 6:30 pm are — with service getting cut after that run.

         (Looking at Route 150, its great midday frequency drops to 30 minutes at about 6:30 or 7 pm.)

         I’m not an early morning rider but I suspect a similar reverse problem happens then. Longer commutes mean boarding a bus earlier and getting back home later.

         And that doesn’t even get into assuming that all workers have schedules that emulate office workers. If an oil change shop or beauty salon or supermarket or mall store is open until 8 or 9 pm or later, those workers often don’t have great transit to return home. I think South King has more workers who’s don’t have office worker schedules.

         One side effect of opening Link and RapidRide is that they run at good frequency between 5 am and 10 pm. That is larger window of transit travel opportunity — but only if Metro adds other buses that meet Link or RapidRide with good frequency more hours of the day.

      9. Yes, certainly. What do they call that? Scope of service?

      10. Span of Service.

      11. Because it takes the 150 over an hour to get 20 miles to Union Station.

          Yes! That is the problem. It is 20 miles! Not five, not three, but twenty freaking miles away! So not only does the area lack density, it lacks proximity as well. But hey, not everyone is going to downtown Seattle. They are going to all of the various places on the way. Yet despite very fast average speeds — the kind that someone on the 3, 4 or 8 would kill for — you still don’t have that many riders. Because the area lacks density.

          You can’t fix the basic geographic problem: Places like Kent are not that dense, and are not close to places that are.

          This is a basic problem and every attempt to solve it ends up with a poorly performing set of routes. The 150 is actually an express. From Tukwila to SoDo it runs on I-5. So imagine a different express that skips all those stops between Kent and Tukwila. This would be much faster. But the increase in ridership (due to the faster speed) would not make up for the missed stops. There just aren’t that many people making that trip from Kent — and the trip is very long. Thus you end up with a bus that performs poorly. Meanwhile, the 150 performs worse. Some of the riders that did board in Kent now take this express. The result is a poorly performing system.

          You can see this in the data, including express routes. Ridership per service hour is basically the same as ridership per dollar spent. If it is low, it means that the agency is spending more on those riders than it does on others. Now look at the numbers from before the pandemic: https://kingcounty.gov/~/media/depts/metro/accountability/pdf/2019/system-evaluation.pdf. Skip to page 29. The “urban” routes are those that serve downtown. Notice the routes that run from South King (the 100s). They perform poorly. Even the buses that make very few stops along the way — the peak-only express buses — perform poorly. The 150 actually performs average, while just about every route South King route is below average. Meanwhile, all the highly performing routes are in Seattle.

          This means that in general, the suburban riders — especially those in South King — are subsidized to a much higher degree than those in the city. As someone from Seattle I can only say: You are welcome.

      12. The poor performance of South King routes should not be surprising to anyone who looks at a census map and knows a thing or two about transit. Look at the keys to ridership as Jarrett Walker explains:

          1) Density
          2) Walkability
          3) Linearity
          4) Proximity

          South King lacks proximity and density. You can improve walkability and the linearity of the routes, but you can only do so much.

      13. “South King lacks proximity and density.”

          That’s exactly what good transit would catalyze, and why I keep harping on Sounder, which already has reasonable linearity, at least in it’s King County portion. It is proximate to the most of the density, such as it is, and if it became usable beyond the commute, would very likely catalyze much more of the same.

          I know it’s expensive, and I know you would prefer to spend the money on service in the north that is already dense and make that service that is already very good and make it great. But that is incredibly inequitable. The Kent Valley is the poorest and most underserved part of the entire county. The traffic violence there is horrific. Those who can’t drive, and there are a lot of people who can’t drive, are either incredibly isolated or take their lives in their hands simply trying to navigate through a very hostile environment. The working poor who spend a quarter of their income keeping a beater car on the road instead of saving for a house or retirement fall further into debt and teeter on homelessness.

          We need to serve these folks. Yes, it might not be the most efficient use of transit dollars but it has a bang for the buck far beyond another Rapid Ride or link extension in an already well-served wealthy neighborhood.

      14. That’s exactly what good transit would catalyze

          No it wouldn’t. Again, compared to much of Seattle they already have good transit. Consider Greenwood. It is booming. Does it have better transit than Kent? No. The big difference is that it is closer to other places. We can’t move Kent. If Kent wants to become really big — a second Seattle (or at the very least a second Bellevue) — it isn’t a matter of transit. Kent would have to become a major destination and I just don’t see that happening.

      15. If you look at the population, Kent is already a second Bellevue, just poor instead of rich. It is simply served by the wrong mode of transit to coalesce all these people into a denser area easier to serve.

      16. “The 150 is actually an express. From Tukwila to SoDo it runs on I-5.”

          South of Interurban Avenue it isn’t. It turns four times to cross 405 and get to Southcenter. It then turns five more times to get to James Street in Kent. The first set of turns is a congestion bottleneck. That’s what people want an express to get out of.

          “Because it takes the 150 over an hour to get 20 miles to Union Station.”

          “Yes! That is the problem. It is 20 miles!”

          No, an hour is unacceptably slow for that distance. A half hour would be more reasonable. Especially since transit is competing with driving.

          Would you go somewhere if it took an hour to get there and another hour to get back? Half the time you’d try to avoid the trip, or drive instead. What we need is high-quality transit solutions, not excuses for bad transit and then wondering why ridership is low.

10. Since ST published in The Platform that they’ll be running all northbound trains to Northgate, then continuing them empty to Lynnwood, I wonder how many people will try to stay on and get a preview of the extension.

    1. I assume they sweep the cars. Someone might try and stow away, but it is tough to do. My brother and I once tried to hide out in the bathrooms for a Frank Zappa double header at the Paramount. The security guard found us and kicked us out. I think this would be harder (and less rewarding).

    2. I would think that it’s more likely that a rider would try it because the connecting bus isn’t coming for 30 minutes or more or maybe not at all (until the next morning).

       Among the Lynnwood Link stations, do any have roll-down entrance / exit gates? If not, I could see this happening.

       1. @Al S,

          None of the new stations currently have pedestrian access to the platform areas. Everything is screened off.

          Additionally, ST security staff are deactivating the LRV doors at NGS after each LRV is swept. So people couldn’t get on even if somehow they did make it onto the platform.

       2. In Santa Monica, many people who sweep teams encounter are asleep or passed-out, even during the day.

          https://youtu.be/VGmGeZEvdaI

    3. @Troy,

       You are correct. I was at NGS earlier today and spoke to the security staff about the sweep process.

       They say it is going well, and there hasn’t been much more confusion than normal, but there have been some passengers who don’t want to get off.

       Basically some passengers assume that since the train is going to Lynnwood, and they are too, that they should just stay on. And they really aren’t happy about the forced transfer to a bus.

       But overall it apparently is going well. Good news.

11. raep

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