On January 2, Katie Wilson was sworn in as Mayor of Seattle by the Transit Fairy. Coverage of the ceremony: The Urbanist called her Seattle’s Unabashed Urbanist Mayor. The Stranger thought she came in strong [good]. The Seattle Times ($) quotes Wilson’s slogan “This is your city”. PubliCola celebrates Wilson’s thesis “we need bread, but we need roses too”.

Transportation:

Other items:

This is an Open Thread.

95 Replies to “Midweek Roundup: Urbanist Mayor”

  1. The ferry system finds itself in a car-space crisis. But it is not yet in a transit crisis. Deterring walk-ons with high fares and not accepting ORCA transfer value, or even participating in the low-income fare project (which even the Kitsap Fast Ferries do) has seen to that.

    The quickest way out of this car space crisis is for the Governor to order a reduction in walk-on fares. If suspending walk-on fares is his only legal option, try that for a week, and declare to the masses that “This is your ferry system!”

    The Governor would come off looking like a genius if the suddenly-single-boat routes end up carrying more *people* than they did when they were two-boat routes.

    1. While lowering (or suspending) walk-on fares would be more just, I don’t think it would alter the situation. The people who drive want to drive. I doubt very much that anyone who drives is influenced in the least by the fares. They are well aware that walking on would be cheaper (and less prone to big delays). The fast ferries are an alternative to walking on the regular ferries. They have limited space and (last time I checked) sell out. So lowering the fares there wouldn’t change anything. The state could invest in more fast ferries but that would likely take a while.

      1. I am not aware of any dearth of space for walk-ons on the passenger decks.

        This is a crisis for car drivers only. Do I care? Not one bit. I remain flat-out opposed to the state buying more car ferries for the rich if they aren’t net-zero emissions.

        I will make one exception: I do care that public transit and emergency vehicles get to be the first in line, even when they are just deadheading.

        I don’t understand why the ferry system does not care about increasing the number of *people* it carries.

      2. It is to the benefit of Kitsap Fast Ferry riders to lobby for lower car ferry walk-on fares. I hope I don’t have to spell out why.

      3. It is to the benefit of Kitsap Fast Ferry riders to lobby for lower car ferry walk-on fares.

        Sure, but the point is it would have minimal impact on both driving and passenger use. It probably has the least influence on ridership of any transit system. If you lowered fares (to zero) for buses you would likely have a bigger reduction in driving (although still not that much).

        I don’t understand why the ferry system does not care about increasing the number of *people* it carries.

        It does, because the vast majority of walk-on riders use the ferries that carry cars. The high fares for driving help pay for the ferries. Yes, they could be even higher but in the case of many of the routes you reach a point where people just drive around (which is not good).

      4. Some of the water taxi riders who repeatedly end up not getting a space will also give up permanently and start driving around. So the fares on both ferry systems really do matter, and really do impact the lives of Kitsap commuters.

        I know people who already drive around because the car ferry walk-on fares are more than they care to pay.

      1. The main reason the Bremerton Fast Ferry exists is because of the slow orders passing all the beaches makes the car ferry a much longer (timewise) ride. The Bremerton water taxi is low-wake, and thereby gets to be a lot faster.

        The Bainbridge car ferry has no such legal slowdowns. The abundant space on the passenger decks will still make walk-ons prefer it over cramming into a water taxi. But it would be kinda cool to replace the second Bainbridge ferry with water taxis, and thereby increase frequency on the line.

        The legislation enabling the vote on ST3 also enabled the vote on creating the Kitsap Fast Ferry District. So, that’s the key part of how the Kitsap water taxis came to be, politically.

        One bottleneck to adding more water taxis will be the slow process of licensing more captains.

      2. I was thinking that foot ferries must be much cheaper to maintain and operate and WSF could perhaps run one more for additional service, especially over the summer.

      3. I agree, and so do many in the Legislature who pushed for developing a large mosquito fleet in time for the World Cup (so Kitsap County could get a larger piece of the action.)

        I expect fuller passenger decks during the World Cup, but I don’t know if Kitsap is working with FIFA to make Kitsap a part of FIFA’s bundling packages, or to make ferry or other transit fares part of the bundling.

    3. I think walk-on trips are inelastic enough that a couple dollars in fares won’t make much difference in travel rates. Driving trips, again, it’s inelastic, except for the fact that driving around via the Narrows Bridge is often a reasonable substitute. So, if higher driving fares has any impact on behavior, it’s going to be more people driving around, resulting in more vehicle-miles-traveled, rather than less.

      1. Do you have any data suggesting that walk-on rates are price-in elastic? Without such, I firmly disagree with your hand-waving conclusion.

        My own experience is that I would love to ride the ferry more in the summer, but I don’t. I don’t care to pay that much. The only times I have ridden are when I have family in town, and they want to ride the ferry.

        But we do agree that there is no passenger space crisis on the car ferries, I hope.

      2. My own experience is that I would love to ride the ferry more in the summer, but I don’t. I don’t care to pay that much.

        Then how do you get there?

      3. Do you have any data suggesting that walk-on rates are price-in elastic?

        No, but it stands to reason. Partly it is because the tolls for driving are already quite high. You can save a lot of money by just walking on the ferry but for whatever reason, people drive.

        Anecdotally I know of someone who lives on Whidbey Island that comes into Seattle once a week. The toll to drive onto the ferry is enough for him to try different alternatives. He has tried riding an electric bike but it doesn’t work well from Mukilteo into Seattle. Prior to Lynnwood Link he tried taking the bus but that just took too long. I haven’t talked to him recently — maybe he is taking transit on the other side. The point being that middle class people (like him) find the difference between car and walk-on fares big enough to justify trying all sorts of alternatives. Increasing that difference isn’t likely going to make much difference. In his case the car fare is one of the lower ones but it still costs $20 round trip while walking on costs $7. Although for him it only costs $3.50 to walk-on because he is a senior (there is no senior discount for driving). For a lot of trips it is $31 versus $11. So you save $20 if you walk-on. It is hard to see how saving an additional five bucks (or even the full $11) would make that much difference.

      4. How do I get to Kitsap County?

        I don’t. I don’t need to.

        I enjoy visiting when family decide they want to go there. And then we spend money there.

        The rest of the time, I have plenty of other options when I decide to have a restaurant meal, or visit a museum, or go for a hike, etc, with no fares to pay since my monthly pass has it covered.

        Kitsap is losing out on tourist dollars and sales tax income, particularly in its ferry sales tax district, because the walk-on fare is too high.

      5. How do I get to Kitsap County?

        I don’t. I don’t need to.

        OK, but that is what I’m talking about. In your case lowering the fares wouldn’t impact whether you drive or not. You just want to pay less in fares. Well join the club. We could lower the fares to $1 across the board (for Link, Metro, Community Transit, etc.). That would be great for riders. Unfortunately, it would mean that a lot of agencies would suddenly have a lot less money.

        That was my original point. Lowering fares might be more just (they do seem a bit too high) but it would have little impact on the number of people that drive.

      6. It only stands to reason that drivers are price-inelastic if there is data to that effect. The existence of some who are price-inelastic does not mean all are.

      7. Sure, but there is also no reason to think that walk-on trips would be less elastic than other transit fares. Quite the opposite. You have to consider the alternative to transit (driving). This gets complicated but consider a typical bus ride. It is quite possible that a five mile drive is actually cheaper than paying $3 to ride the bus. As long as driving costs less than 60 cents per mile you are saving money.

        In contrast, it is *never* cheaper to drive onto the ferry. It costs a quite a bit to drive onto the ferry. So the only way it would be cheaper is if driving around was somehow cheaper than walking onto the ferry. This seems like a rare case as well. It costs $4.50 to drive over the Tacoma Narrows Bridge (round trip). A walk-on pays $11 round trip*. So you save $5.50 in fares. But it is about 40 miles to get to the middle of Seattle from the Tacoma Narrows. But people who live close to the bridge will probably drive anyway (or take a bus). But even at 40 miles the cost to drive has to be less than 15 cents a mile to make it worthwhile. Good luck with that.

        This is for one person. Youth are free. So if you have two adults then driving around becomes more attractive. But it is still likely to be way more expensive versus walking. More to the point, there are just a lot more trips within the city where it is cheaper to drive. It stands to reason that lowering fares would lead to a bigger decrease in driving there.

        More than anything I think we are talking about two different things. I agree with you, the fares should be lower. I also think the monorail fares should be lower. But I don’t think (in either case) it will lead to significantly less driving. Maybe a handful but far less than if you lowered the more common fares (like Metro buses).

        *If you buy a 90-day multipass you can lower the passenger fare to $9. Thus even infrequent travelers are bound to save money by walking onto the ferry.

      8. “How do I get to Kitsap County?”

        “I don’t. I don’t need to.”

        I thought maybe you’d want to ride the ferry to see the Sound from the middle or spend a couple hours strolling Winslow or Bremerton. People do that. But they ordinarily only do it a couple times a year, so $20 in foot fares isn’t that big a deal. My mom loves going on the water so much she had an unlimited Argosy pass (“Captain’s Table”) for a few years for the tour rides.

    4. The ferries need to raise enough money to cover their high operational costs. Even if operations are subsidized, they probably need the $5 fares.

  2. Ross has been a bad fit for the Westlake neighborhood for some time, but they still do brisk business, and create an artificial waiting line to get in. They say that is for health reasons, but seriously, that only increases the odds of spreading respiratory viruses while waiting in that line facing the security guard.

    The site has been picketed for union reasons. Perhaps they are borrowing Starbuck’s practice of closing down any location that unionizes.

    When I say Ross is a bad fit for the neighborhood, I mean that the neighborhood is the region’s center of high-brow pricey arts performances, with three huge theatres in walking distance, plus the smaller but still pricy Union Arts Theatre, and the transit gateway to the Seattle Center (featuring two pro hockey teams now, plus McCaw Hall (formerly “The Opera House, though ballets seem to dominate the event calendar any more).

    Sure, theatre-goers might still buy stuff at thrift stores like Ross, but they also keep a huge sales staff at Nordstrom’s very busy, generating much more sales tax per square meter. If a business does not own the building, or has to pay Westlake rent for a storefront with only moderate foot traffic, it won’t last long.

    1. Hey, I’m not a bad fit … oh, you mean Ross Dress for Less. Yeah, sure. Seriously though, didn’t that used to be a Woolworth’s?

      Anyway, it is possible they just couldn’t compete with the nearby Target. There is only so much demand for clothing and a lot of people buy clothes and shoes online now (e. g. I buy my socks online now). This is especially true of bargain shoppers. In contrast, folks who want more of a “shopping experience” or don’t care about paying extra will still shop at higher end downtown stores. There is still a place for places like Walmart (with its very cheap property and giant parking lot) but even with the downturn I imagine downtown real estate is still pretty pricey.

    3. “theatre-goers might still buy stuff at thrift stores like Ross”

      The purpose of a major downtown is for many different people to fulfill many different purposes simultaneously. It doesn’t matter if theater-goers shop at Ross; others do. If I’m looking for clothing I’ll check Nordstrom, Nordstrom Rack, Uniqlo, and Ross — not all on the same day, but as many as necessary to find what I want.

      Ross is not a thrift store (selling used-item donations), it’s a closeout store (selling new overstock items the original retailers couldn’t).

    4. “Westlake rent for a storefront with only moderate foot traffic”

      That’s Westlake Mall’s and Pacific Place’s problem to attract enough tenants that people will go to. Pine Street in front of them has high foot traffic all day — potential middle-class shoppers, not the down-n-out people in 3rd. It was thick with pedestrians before covid, and it is again. So there are lots of pedestrians going to shops, or who would go to shops relevant to them if they existed. The women’s clothing boutiques and jewelers and unnecessary junk aren’t relevant to me, so it needs to be something else.

    5. coincidentally, the Ballard location will close on Jan 16th.
      That Ross Dress for Less location sort of doesn’t exist. I go there for grocery and other all the time but never set foot in the store.

  3. Here’s my proposal for a possible restructure for South Link Connections which is about to be finalized soon, it’s not perfect because I kind of rushed through it.

    A Line:
    Decrease frequencies to every 15 minutes all-day, every day. Though with the extra resources, we can extend north to Rainier Beach Station (which lacks bus service). It would continue north on Tukwila International Blvd, then onto S Boeing Access Rd, then onto MLK. This also replaces the 124, makes routing faster into Seattle (by transferring to light rail), and eliminating the need to transfer (as truncating the 124 at Rainier Beach will create more than one transfer). For now it would just use regular stops.

    124:
    Delete the route. The 24 would no longer be attached to another route.

    150:
    Have it take over the 124’s path by continuing along Marginal Way from Tukwila P&R, but still have the same routing through Downtown.

    156:
    Truncate the route at the old 635’s western terminal (Des Moines Marina). Its lost path would be covered by the 635. The route would still connect to the light rail at SeaTac/Airport Station, but makes the 635 function more like a proper link shuttle. The rest of the route remains as proposed by Metro.

    157:
    I would restore the route, have it run the 161’s frequencies, and truncate it at SeaTac/Airport Station rather than running all the way to Downtown Seattle. Unlike the 161 which continues to Burien TC.

    161:
    Delete it for the reincarnation of the 157.

    164:
    Do it EXACTLY as planned, except I would extend it to Des Moines Marina (like a truncated 165 running between Des Moines Marina and Green River College and running frequently).

    165:
    Delete as planned.

    DART 166:
    Keep it as proposed, except I would convert it into a DART route (taking over the 631), and extend it to Kent Station via SR 516 rather than running along 240th to just Kent Des Moines Station.

    168:
    Extend to Star Lake Station via the 183’s path. This adds more bus service into Star Lake Station, and helps split the 183.

    181:
    Have the route continue on 320th to Hoyt Rd, which continues as 49th, then turn on Norpoint, then onto 356th, then onto 21st to reach Twin Lakes P&R, of course this will add time to the total 181 trip, but to “off-set” the time, increase service to every 15 minutes (AS WELL AS WEEKENDS, METRO!!!). This makes the system more like a grid and less like scribbles. The rest is intact.

    182:
    The route would now use Campus Dr in order to reach NE Tacoma, making more of a grid system in South Federal Way and making the routing faster and efficient. The lost paths would be covered by the 903. It would now through-routed with the 183.

    183:
    The route would now run from Federal Way Downtown to Star Lake (connecting light rail with neighborhoods) as the segment from Star Lake to Kent is taken over by the 168. It would also be through-routed with the 182. It would no longer through-route with the 153 (which would be single).

    187:
    My proposal deletes this route, creating a more grid-like system is cheaper, provides a better experience, and is less confusing for new riders. Since I deleted this route and replaced it with revising current routes (and the proposed 902), this route would be redundant so why not just delete it? This route sucked at connecting Federal Way residents to light rail.

    193:
    Unlike what Metro proposes, I think this route should go away. It’s one of the longest routes in the system, and basically has no other reason to exist than serving First Hill. Of course the 1 Line will take longer than the 193, but greatly improving ST express in the South King County/Pierce Transit area will do the trick.

    ST 560:
    Truncate west at Burien TC, increase frequencies to every 15 minutes every day all-day, and have it stop at Tukwila International Blvd Station rather than SeaTac/Airport Station (shaving off time, like Stride S1).

    DART 631:
    Deleted for the DART 166.

    DART 635:
    The route would continue along 24th (and taking over the 156) to end at Star Lake Station rather than Des Moines Marina. This creates a grid-system, and you would also need to increase frequencies on the 635 to make up time. It wouldn’t go to Kent Des Moines Station because it would be redundant with the 166 (and helps skip a stop along the Federal Way Link Extension and cater to those who need a connection to rail). Increase the frequencies also.

    DART 901:
    I would delete this route as Metro proposes.

    DART 902:
    I would have the western terminus be Twin Lakes P&R by using the 181’s path rather than looping through Twin Lakes. The rest is how Metro proposes. The lost 187 paths that were originally proposed to be replaced by the 902 will be covered with the DART service area. Through-route with the 903.

    DART 903:
    The new western terminus would be Twin Lakes P&R (like the 902), it would use 356th and 21st to get there (similar to in Phase 2 how Metro proposed to truncate the 182 here). It would no longer use Campus Dr. Through-route with the new 902.

    If I missed anything, I’ll reply. Also I might need to re-propose it. Everything else remains as proposed by Metro (including the peak routes).

    Kent Des Moines Station: A, 164, DART 166
    Star Lake Station: 168, 183, DART 635
    Federal Way Downtown Station: A, 181, 182, 183, 902, 903

    1. Where would RapidRide A lay over at Rainier Beach? There’s a driver restroom south of the Link station — but nowhere for buses to idle when drivers take breaks.

      1. The same place Rapid Ride R is going to lay over when that finally gets built?

        Maybe that’s not built yet (wherever it is), but Metro is going to need a layover spot, so it might as well find and build one early.

      2. Eventually they will need to find a layover and comfort station for RapidRide R. The other alternative would be to layover by the 7 (this would make the route a lot more useful). I’m not saying I agree with the proposal but I don’t think laying over is a big issue.

      3. It would layover on Trenton St. This also helps test the waters for Boeing Access Road Station.

        The main reason I split the 183 is because since it takes so long to travel the whole thing, I expect some riders to transfer to light rail to speed up the time. And also I agree with many that the 168 needs a connection to light rail, simply connecting it to light rail could also make up for the lost 162. The 153 would be single, and the 183 would now through-route with the revised 182. Let’s not forget through-routing is cheaper and more convenient for both the consumer and Metro.

      4. Oops, I forgot to link my name to my YouTube channel, anyways my friend Jaylan Ballinger did a full video ride on the 183 and it was about 40+ minutes. Perhaps merging the faster portion of the 183 and the 168 would be a benefit for former 162 commuters, add more service to Star Lake, and create a one seat ride between Star Lake, Maple Valley, and Covington.

      5. That’s like what Metro Connect proposed for RR A. I think it has some value but don’t see it as a high priority item.

    2. “150: Have it take over the 124’s path by continuing along Marginal Way from Tukwila P&R”

      Unacceptable, and Metro would never do this. The 150 is the fastest way from Kent to downtown when Sounder isn’t running, and the 162 peak express is slated to be deleted if I remember. The 150 already takes over an hour from Kent Station to Westlake, and add half an hour if you’re transferring from East Hill. That’s too long to make it longer by removing the I-5 segment.

      Link can’t compete with the 150, because by the time the southbound 150 gets to north Kent (and the industrial job destinations there), Link is still at SeaTac or KDM, and there’s no way a bus transfer there can be competitive, not with their travel time and transfer wait. At minimum you’d need an express from KDM to Kent Station on KDM Road, and Metro has none planned.

      1. Metro’s intention for the 150 is to upgrade it to RapidRide and either (A) keep the current routing, (B) truncate it at Rainier Beach, or (C) move it to an upgraded 4th Ave S if ST3 Link displaces the SODO busway.

        I assume truncating it at Rainier Beach will be controversial because of the travel-time issue. A 150+Link trip would be 12 minutes slower by my estimate, plus transfer time. Given that the 150 has barely-tolerable travel time now (really substandard between two such large cities 15 miles apart), and the fact that most Kent residents live 2+ miles east of Kent Station, I think it would be a difficult sell to truncate it at Rainier Beach.

      2. I agree, Mike. Metro has proposed the 150 truncation at Rainier Beach (which is stupid because of your reasoning). Though if ST were to add an infill station at Boeing Access Road on the S Line (and run it full time though idk if that were to happen). I think a possible truncation would be welcome. Though I just think the 124 is a waste of money and needs to be wiped out of existence. A peak route from Tukwila P&R to Downtown Seattle would be worse.

      3. @Scooby Doo

        Is there a reason you think the 124 is a waste of money? The 124 does fairly well for a mostly suburban route and provides unique coverage

      4. Somebody goes between downtown, Airport Way, Georgetown, East Marginal Way, and TIB/South King County. It’s an alternative when south Link is closed and has shuttle buses. It uniquely serves the Museum of Flight, Aviation High School, and jobs on East Marginal Way. The 124 replaced the 174 from downtown to Federal Way. How is it redundant?

    3. “Decrease frequencies to every 15 minutes all-day, every day. Though with the extra resources, we can extend north to Rainier Beach Station (which lacks bus service).”

      I’m reluctant to decrease frequency, because that would the transit network less useful and depress ridership. We’ve finally achieved 10-minute frequency; let’s not reduce it. At minimum let’s see whether it’s losing ridership to Link, and wait a few years to see if those riders are replaced by other riders.

      Tukwila has pushed to extend the A to BAR station to serve an emerging village at 144th, and Metro Connects 2050 envisions extending it through BAR to Rainier Beach station. So then you’d get your alignment if not your frequency.

      1. Yeah I don’t think the A should get cut; if anything the A could use more service to bring it to 10 minutes all-day rather than only until 6 PM. It’s a top route in terms of productivity and in terms of raw ridership. On top of that it has consistently strong ridership along the entire route. I expect ridership to go up a bit after Federal Way Link as well.

      4. Well, I don’t agree jd, the difference between Federal Way Link and the A is that the A has more stops with high ridership, and it serves an actual urban center at 272nd rather than serving a dead park and ride that isn’t going to be used much rather than at peak. It was also stupid for Sound Transit to build over a thousand stalls at the park and ride, when their policy should be 400-500 stalls, any others left out could simply use other garages along the line, it’s really that simple. Except the A will have higher ridership since Federal Way Link Extension runs along I-5 rather than populated 99, but I still think that A Line ridership will decrease. Though I agree with the changes having to wait a few years.

      5. Link is a limited-stop service with stations every 1-3 miles. That means it needs a local shadow like the 106, 49, 67, and A. It’s not a replacement for a local route; it’s halfway between local and express. In some corridors it’s even as fast as an express bus but with more stops and one-seat ride pairs (e.g., north and east).

    4. Part of the rapid ride brand is 10-minute peak period headway. I doubt Metro or the elected officials would dilute that. The A line will do well as a complement to Link.

  4. The state plans to do some Revive I-5 work this weekend, since the Seahawks have a bye.

    Perhaps ST and WSDOT should talk with each other, and agree to draw straws, or something, over which gets to partially shut down this weekend.

      2. Weekend morning closures aren’t that bad. I at least aren’t even ready to go out until 10am, so postponing a shopping trip or park visit for a hour or two is better than postponing it until next weekend or later in the month.

  5. It’s surprising that stores are moving out of Westlake Center and Pacific Place to standalone locations. The interior of the malls has a pedestrian-shoppers’ environment, and mall security keeps out the sketchy people that some are alarmed by on the sidewalk. And while there are empty spaces inside, they look nicer than empty buildings outside. So I think eventually Westlake Center will fill up again. Pacific Place might take longer because it’s on the periphery of the retail district.

    1. I’m kind of surprised neither mall has managed to find retail tenants. As far as I can tell foot traffic is fairly decent and surrounding retail is doing at least okay. Nordstrom, the Rack, and Uniqlo for instance are always bustling.

    2. I had a friend from Atlanta who worked at Neiman Marcus in the mall, and he called it a “white-trash mall”. I couldn’t believe it because my concept of white trash is something that barely exists in King County, people living in trailer parks like in 8 Mile and shopping at Walmart and McDonald’s for discount and bling-discount things, not what Westlake Center sells. But that’s what he said.

      If Westlake Center really is undesirable to average mall shoppers, that could explain if it’s having sales problems and why some stores are moving out of it.

      But I find this analysis hard to believe. Westlake Center has always seemed like a perfectly fine mall to me. Not prestigious like Bellevue Square, but fine for a downtown mall. I’m glad it’s in a walkable area and right on top of a regional transfer point.

      The biggest thing I don’t like about Wetlake Mall is the escalators are arranged in parallel rather than zig-zag, so you go up to level 2 and than have to walk all the way around the escalator bank (passing more shops of course) to get to the next escalator up to level 3. Or down if you’re going from level 3 to the transit tunnel in the basement.

      1. Westlake (and the area in general) is kind of down from where it used to be fifteen or twenty years ago. Half the stores are there to serve tourists lost on their way to the monorail. (If you know where you’re going, you can take the elevator directly from the street or the tunnel station.) The other half serve the kind of people who ride transit in Seattle. This is America, so that doesn’t mean wealthy people.

        I always assumed the escalator configuration was on purpose. That way, if you’re going to the top, you have to walk past at least half the stores in the mall.

    3. I went inside Pacific Place the other day and went by Westlake Center. In neither case did it feel like the malls were dying. We ate lunch at Pacific Place and the top floor (which also has the theater) was quite busy. I think Pacific Place just made a bunch of bad decisions (or at the very least decisions that proved to be bad because of the timing). I wouldn’t read too much from it.

      1. Didn’t Pacific Place kick most of their tenants out for a big renovation right before COVID?

      2. It lost half its tenants; see my inventory below. I don’t think it kicked them out or had a renovation. Some company was considering buying the mall and converting part of it to offices, but that was after it was half empty, and the company didn’t pursue it. Probably because the office market is even slacker than the retail market.

        It was Northgate that leveraged the pandemic timing to convert the mall to its long-term plan.

      3. Didn’t Pacific Place kick most of their tenants out for a big renovation right before COVID?

        Yeah. They wanted to be more upscale. That fell through, obviously, because of COVID. They ran into financial problems and so they thought about converting some buildings to offices but of course COVID put an end to that as well. Now they are basically recovering. But they look nothing like Crossroads a few years back. (I think it was Crossroads — I’m not much of an expert on malls but I remember walking around Bellevue and thinking “Wow, I didn’t know malls could just collapse like this”. Of course it has recovered. Not all of them have though but I think the Pacific Northwest is doing better than most areas of the country when it comes to surviving malls.)

    5. I’m surprised that everyone is surprised. Though they are far from being “white-trash” malls, both Westlake and Pacific Place are definitely ghost towns – especially Pacific Place. And the shops that do remain are obscure retailers with lackluster attraction. However, the upper food court at Westlake does get busy – especially during events at Climate Pledge. I love to shop. Unfortunately, downtown is no longer fun to shop at because 1) most major retailers are gone and 2) there’s too much drugged out riff-raff you have to wade through. When I have to shop, I’ll do so at Bellevue Square or at Alderwood. If you haven’t been to either in a while, they’re worth checking out.

      Sorry fellas…I love Seattle but a lot of you are in denial that the city is in bad shape. Its retail core is a prime example.

      1. Sad to say, but all the major suburban malls (Southcenter, Alderwood, Bellevue Square) are way more crowded than Downtown Seattle these days. This was not the case 20 years ago.

      2. As I wrote up above, I was just at Pacific Place. It is hardly a ghost town. I’ve seen dying malls. This was nothing like that. We ate a dumpling place. It was good, but pricey (again, not exactly like a dying mall). Meanwhile, the streets were very crowded.

      3. Sorry fellas…I love Seattle but a lot of you are in denial that the city is in bad shape. Its retail core is a prime example.

        That is simply not true. Look at the numbers: https://downtownseattle.org/programs-services/research/economic-report/2024-at-a-glance/. Retail got hammered by COVID. All are in the process of recovering. In any event, going to downtown Seattle to visit a mall is like going to Paris to eat at McDonald’s. Sure, you can do it, but why?

      4. Downtown retail is certainly pretty shaky. It might never come back in the same way now that online shopping has consumed so much of lower-end retail.

        What surprises me is that Westlake Center and Pacific Place haven’t been able to glom onto any of the success of their neighbors. They have some foot traffic but are still full of vacant storefronts. Adjacent retail like Nordstrom, Pike Place, and Uniqlo have been doing quite well and adjacent neighborhoods like SLU, Belltown, and even Pioneer Square have been seeing a huge resurgence in the past two or three years, but somehow the indoor malls haven’t been able to capitalize.

      5. As the DSA data Ross sent show, the CBD is not dying or dead compared to pre-COVID. Anecdotally, perhaps it was busier 20 years ago, but I think this is partially because retail in the other parts of Seattle is much better than 20 years ago; there are now so many more neighborhoods filled with walkable destinations that people then could only get downtown. I don’t see any data suggesting that non-local visits are much lower.

        I suspect that, in our post-commuting(ish) world, if there was more residential density downtown then there would be more retail density too. Nathan D. had some data showing at least a correlation two years ago.

        When I have to shop, I’ll do so at Bellevue Square or at Alderwood. If you haven’t been to either in a while, they’re worth checking out.
        Out of curiosity, do you live in a place where you can walk to most of your shopping destinations? I do, and the main reason I rarely shop downtown is the same reason I ~never shop at Bellevue Square or Alderwood—I can get most of what I need much more conveniently in walking distance. It’s not like I need to visit the mall to enjoy a simulacrum of a walkable neighborhood. The other places that are unique and high-quality enough to be destinations are generally scattered around the city instead of in any of these malls (the McDonald’s in Paris metaphor is perhaps a more concise way to say that).

      7. “going to downtown Seattle to visit a mall is like going to Paris to eat at McDonald’s”

        Westlake Center and Pacific Place aren’t malls in the sense of a place to engage in “mall culture”: Valley Girls window-shopping for the latest miniskirts and seeing their friends in the hallways. You need department stores under the same roof for that. I don’t think Seattlites value that; otherwise they’d live in the suburbs.

        The point of Westlake Center and Pacific Place is a compact urban-format space for lots of little stores. Especially chain stores that are otherwise only available in suburban malls. I don’t go to Westlake Center or Pacific Place to browse stores; I go there to visit one particular store and get out. While I’m there I may walk around to see what other stores are there, but I won’t go into them then; I’ll just remember they’re there for later.

      8. The McDonald, Starbucks, and so forth operating in historical European centers are generally busy, in my experience. I have found both good places for free WiFi, free water, and free bathrooms, but they have plenty of local patrons that apparently don’t have the same retail snobbery as this comment thread. I used a Starbucks in the historic center of Lyon a few weeks ago; it was packed and I was definitely the only non-French speaker.

        RE: Chris’s comment, I don’t think there is anything sad about busy suburban malls, particularly when malls are some of the best opportunities to urbanize the suburbs. Bellevue Square in particular is clearly urban; it’s fully integrated with the high rise Lincoln Square across the street. Southcenter already has highrise (Airmark) & midrise infill housing, and Alderwood Mall will completely redevelop once Link arrives.

        Malls ebbs and flow. Totem Lake is in a wealthy city but was a dying mall until it was redeveloped recently. Seattle downtown has had robust population growth so there is plenty of local population to support large footprint retail, but specific malls might need significant private investment to revitalize.

      9. @Ross… The eateries atop Pacific Place are good. There’s a Thai place I really enjoy. Aside from that, there’s nothing else worth visiting or strolling through. As for the data you presented by the Downtown Assoc., it shows visitors are indeed returning. It also shows:

        -out-of-towners are coming to downtown as a “side visit” rather than a destination itself. They’re here for events instead.
        -locals are not visiting downtown as frequently or as long as before.
        -locals are staying outside of the Pike/Pine area and opting for the Waterfront and Pike Place market
        -Alderwood & Southcenter rebounded post COVD while downtown did not.

        Ross, you have a good point of “eating MacDonalds in Paris”. However, there’s an undeniable fact about American consumerism: we enjoy our chain stores. Last year while at Westlake Center, I had a guy from the Midwest ask me “where are all your stores, like Macys and stuff?” For better or worse, the presence of big name retailers equals foot traffic & commerce. Without them, the energy or busyness is gone. The Westlake courtyard used to be abuzz with people drinking Starbucks and visiting the shops inside the mall. It isn’t anymore. While Pike Place and 1st Ave is in much better shape, the luster of the Westlake area is dead.

      10. @Mike.. “Westlake Center and Pacific Place aren’t malls in the sense of a place to engage in “mall culture” ”

        But they used to be. That’s my point. People used to stroll through and visit the shops. I used to take visitors there. They were filled with the H&M, Express, Lululemon, etc..

      11. @June… I’m a 10 min walk away from Ballard & Market. For eating and drinking, I’m definitely staying local. Same goes for anywhere else in the city. But when it comes to clothing, I’m not going to spend $30-$50 on a t-shirt or $100 on a flannel – which is the cost of clothing at Market Street Shoes. Same goes for many of the boutiques across the city. Before COVID, I was able to go downtown and shop for anything I needed -at middle class prices -within a 2 block radius. The only place that’s possible is at a mall in the suburbs.

        I appreciate local shops but the majority of my patronage is mere window-shopping because I can’t afford the prices vs the vast options and lower prices found at a major retailer. I will, however, gladly spend my money at a local cafe or bar.

  6. DSTT shuttle-train only as of 1:49pm due to “water on the tracks”.

    https://www.soundtransit.org/ride-with-us/service-alerts/1-line-trains-are-disrupted-westlake-to-stadium-until-further-notice

    “Passengers traveling from Stadium to Westlake will need to board trains on the platform to Federal Way Downtown.

    Train service from Federal Way Downtown to Stadium stations and Westlake to Lynnwood stations – every 15 minutes.

    Train shuttle from Stadium to Westlake stations – every 25 minutes.”

    EDIT: “Resolved” as of 2:36pm

    1. I was about to comment on this, starting with “Oh dear, unplanned Link outage of the day”. 25-minute shuttle buses is really substandard, and less than usual. But it was resolved within 40 minutes of the first alert before I had time to write it.

  7. Metro needs to completely redo its website, schedule layout and route maps. The longtime norm has been listing only “timepoints” on both the schedule and map. Because we are in a digital age and most riders (i feel) need their info while riding, Metro should list each stop instead. I came across Dallas’ website, which was rather impressive..

    https://www.dart.org/guide/transit-and-use/bus-routes/bus-route-detail/bus-route-883-utd-comet-cruiser#busRouteInfoSection

  8. “(I think it was Crossroads — I’m not much of an expert on malls but I remember walking around Bellevue and thinking “Wow, I didn’t know malls could just collapse like this””

    I watched Crossroads go through a basic->high->low cycle over fifty years but I didn’t pay close attention, but I think its “collapse” came before covid.

    In the 70s and early 80s it was our closest shopping center besides Overlake. It had a bunch of one-story businesses and movie theater in the main lot. Maybe JC Penney or some other big clothing store? And restaurants and things north of it, including my favorite Yazzolino’s pizza parlor next to the “One-Hour Martinizing” dry cleaner, and a couple doors down the Black Angus steakhouse. It was nothing special but it met residents’ needs and the stores succeeded. The apartments around the mall were always more lower-income immigrant than the rest of Bellevue.

    After I left in the 80s it went more upscale, with an enclosed mall and an offshoot of Pike Place Market, a kind of lifestyle center sort of.

    In 2022 I started going past there again when my relative moved to an adult family home south of it. It’s now dollar stores and Half Price Books and things like that, how did that happen? I have no idea. The houses around it are now much wealthier than in the 80s, so you’d think they could support some medium-grade useful shops. There is the pair of Dicks’ together (hamburgers and sporting goods), so that’s the latest attraction attempt. I don’t know when its decline started, but I feel it was before 2020. It may just be that that’s what happens ton non-superstar suburban neighborhoods, since the car-dependent big-box social-fragmenting model is unsustainable.

    1. I felt the same way when I went to Factoria Mall a few years ago, though recently the new T&T has really revitalized the mall.

      From what I can tell, online retail has very quickly smothered mid- and lower-end retail-focused malls. Higher-end retail like Bellevue Square, U Village, and Southcenter seem to be doing fine. The lowest end of strip malls are completely gone.

      Malls seem to be shifting to focus more on unique offerings or experiences like dining and fitness classes. I don’t think the old formula of a few huge anchor tenants plus generic retail works any more.

      The death of suburban strip malls has opened up massive opportunities for housing. In my opinion downtown Redmond is by far the most impressive example. Plenty of other malls like U Village, Northgate, and Totem Lake are also being completely transformed.

    2. The US has a tendency of opening shiny new things in new areas and throwing away the old things like they’re disposable cups. Crossroads has potential if only a few more meaningful stores would locate there again. The multifamily area is walkable even if the single-family areas around it aren’t.

    3. Does anyone know when and why Crossroads went downhill? I remember the Pike Place Market outlet closing (I never saw it), and going to an indoor food court later. The whole indoor thing seems to be a QFC now.

      I can’t buy it’s just “online shopping killed strip malls”. Maybe it’s because I have a personal connection to Crossroads. If I lived in Bellevue I would choose it as the most walkable area if you can’t afford downtown Bellevue. And if I still lived in the houses I’d want to shop there. People like to shop close to home and not have to go across town if they don’t have to. And there are all those wealthy homeowners just a few blocks away. So you’d think a few individual companies would take a few individual storefronts and be something that stands out as better.

      1. I don’t go to Crossroads mall very often but it doesn’t feel dead or dying to me, at least as of recently. When I visited in the depths of 2021 it felt dead (worse than most other malls), but I’ve been a handful of times in the last few years and it’s felt markedly better every time I return. As far as I can tell it seems to be doing an okay job of reinventing itself to serve the neighborhood

    1. The article is paywalled. I hope the new building keeps the Woolworth’s facade. Developers have done a good job with restorations when they put their mind to it, or new taller buildings behind old storefront facades, like several at Pine & Bellevue or Pike a block or two from Broadway on both sides, or that hotel at 2nd & Pike.

      The Broadway theater building also needs a new tenant. (It was last Rite-Aid.)

  11. Do we think ridership estimates for Line 2 will meet ST estimates once the cross lake connection opens?

    1. Nah, I doubt that whole thing will carry 50,000 passengers daily, I expect those numbers to be crunched longer due to the crowding which was stupid for Community Transit to come up with “creative” solutions which are idiotic because they don’t cover the areas where crowding is at it’s worst. It was stupid for Sound Transit to never even consider extending the 550 north to Lynnwood at least only during peak, maybe all-day if it was available, and ALSO have it run 8 minutes peak rather than 10 minutes at peak. 2 minutes might not be a lot, but still enough to make a difference, that way they could have rid the 515, possibly delete the 510, and have the 550 also stop at NE 45th, Northgate, and Shoreline South/148th. This way they could have tested out the waters for a one-seat ride from Lynnwood along I-90, but NO they weren’t using their actual brains and seems like they threw out their brains and speeded through. Though the one time I got on the 515 at Mountlake Terrace Freeway Station in the PM peak it was standing room only and people weren’t making room for me. Though if the 550 ran 8 minutes during peak like light rail then they should have ran the 2 Line the same.

      1. “Nah, I doubt that whole thing will carry 50,000 passengers daily,”

        The 50,000 daily rider estimate is an estimate of ridership within a 5 year period

    2. No, because those estimates were from before covid and the rise of work from home. But we need Seattle-Bellevue-Redmond Link even with current ridership or ridership as it was in 1970 with Forward Thrust, to turn transportation around to a better model that will encourage long-term ridership, density, and car-lite living.

      “extending the 550 north to Lynnwood”

      You want the same route to get caught in both I-90 congestion and I-5 congestion? Talk about unreliability.

      “This way they could have tested out the waters for a one-seat ride from Lynnwood along I-90”

      The CID-Lynnwood segment is as much about doubling frequency in north Seattle/Capitol Hill as it is about a one-seat ride from the Eastside to there. In case you haven’t noticed, that’s the highest-ridership area and the one closest to crowding.

      “stupid for Community Transit to come up with “creative” solutions which are idiotic because they don’t cover the areas where crowding is at it’s worst.”

      What creative solutions did CT do? Where is crowding at its worst?

      1. I agree. While East Link offers a lot more than commuting to office jobs, the ridership estimates were based on a lot of that.

        I also agree with your other point. Link from Redmond to Lynnwood is mostly just about convenience (from an operations standpoint) and increasing frequency through the core. It is highly unlikely you will get many riders from the north end to the East Side. Even as early as the UW you start seeing bus options that are faster (at least to Downtown Bellevue or a few of the Redmond stations). You will get a few wrap-around riders but that isn’t the big benefit. It is running the trains twice as often from CID north. If they wanted to save some money they could truncate the 2 Line at say, Northgate but it just isn’t worth it. The main line is crowded during peak (up to Lynnwood) and off-peak it doesn’t run that often.

      2. Mike, the “creative” solutions were to create a route between Lynnwood and Seattle (the 515) running every 10 minutes, they also kept the 510 (which doesn’t stop at Lynnwood). Where crowding is at its worst is from Northgate to IDC (not Lynnwood and Mountlake Terrace). Overall these ideas were dumb, and could have been better (such as what I said), but I agree with your issues, getting stuck on I-5 and I-90 congestion is a pain, but probably adding a “ride the bus” campaign would have fixed this (and the money spent on it would be recovered by the fare revenue and the time saved on those people’s paychecks). And I agree with your second statement which is about crowding, overall it would have been nice but I just can’t see it happening. I would also like to see a Metro operated bus saying Lynnwood City Center. I’m not really the best at covering transit issues as I’m younger than most of you guys, but I try to do my best.

      3. “the “creative” solutions were to create a route between Lynnwood and Seattle (the 515) running every 10 minutes, they also kept the 510 (which doesn’t stop at Lynnwood).”

        That was Sound Transit. not Community Transit. Community Transit deleted all its Seattle routes and reused the hours for local service and 9xx expresses within Snohomish County.

        I agree the 515 was a simplistic strategy. The 510 is about travel time for Everettites, which ST judged would be too long with a transfer to Link. ST would never have added a Lynnwood stop because that would have made the hour-long travel time even longer. I’ve always questioned Everett having a nonstop express to Seattle, but it is what it is.

        Yes, ST ignored the demand between Northgate and downtown as if it’s not as deserving of relief as Lynnwood is. But that seems typical for ST wanting to show favor for cities outside Seattle and counties outside King — to show that it’s serving all ST cities, not just Seattle.

      4. “getting stuck on I-5 and I-90 congestion is a pain, but probably adding a “ride the bus” campaign”

        The drivers who clog the freeway slow down the 550 and 512 and used to slow down the 41 aren’t going to stop doing so just because of a “ride the bus” campaign. You need transit-priority right of way, which is what Link is.

    1. She says simulated service starts “next month”! I wonder when. For a lot of people in Seattle, it will be a bigger deal, day-to-day, than being able to cross the lake. It’ll be nice to have a system that takes trips that don’t involve a 9-5 weekday job seriously, at least if they’re north of the CID. There is pretty frequent rush hour crowding these days north of Westlake and near-crush loads during events, and improving that is probably an even bigger deal since it makes riding so unpleasant and inaccessible.

      In a reply skeet, Balducci says, “after several weeks of simulated service we’ll open across the lake,” which would imply a lower bound of March 1 on the opening and a conservative upper bound of mid- to late-April? March would be a bit sooner than most people on here guessed based on the November system expansion report, I think.

Comments are closed.