Road work and utility upgrades on Yesler Way at the end of the Roaring Twenties. Photograph looking east from First Avenue on April 10, 1929 (#3365, Seattle Municipal Archives Series 2613-07). Google Street View shows a similar view as of August 2025.

Reminder: late-night Link service reductions in North Seattle are ongoing for construction of Pinehurst Station and Sound Transit’s Monthly Maintenance program.

Transportation:

Land Use & Other Commentary:

This is an Open Thread.

143 Replies to “Midweek Roundup: from farms to ferries”

  1. I think more affordable fares would do more than a unique microbrew to get more passengers to visit WSF’s lonely food galleys.

    Accept ORCA transfers and passes, or do as the Legislature asked and accept ORCA LIFT.

    It is the car decks that are mostly full. Making the walk-on fare more affordable is the only realistic path to increase ridership.

    1. Apparently the microbrew is a marketing effort driven by the concessioner, not the ferries themselves. Sometimes things can just be vaguely fun or silly without being a commentary on misplaced priorities.

      Anyways, are fares really the main damper on foot traffic, or is it the limited walkability and relatively poor transit access offered by the towns around the ferry terminals?

      1. Are you talking about the limited bus connections at Colman Ferry Dock in the town of Seattle? Bremerton does a much better job of easy connections between buses and ferries.

      2. >town of Seattle

        har har.

        I mean how most of Kitsap Transit’s buses run every half-hour or less, and the islands are so low-density that they’re hard to justify serving with more-frequent service.

      3. Bremerton does a much better job of easy connections between buses and ferries.

        What? That is absurd. The main Seattle ferry dock is in Downtown Seattle, the area with the best transit in the state. Sure, you might have to walk a couple blocks but overall it is outstanding. In contrast, most of the other docks have much worse transit (as Nathan pointed out).

    2. Would love more walk ons and more affordable walk on fares. But the galleys are certainly not lonely, at least when I’m commuting anywhere from 6-9 AM and 3-6 PM. And the beer is tasty, too. Shoutout to having Finnriver Cider and Reuben’s on draft now as well.

    3. Densifying the neighborhoods around the Bainbridge and Bremerton terminals, as well as decreasing office vacancy near Colman dock, is a good strategy to increase ridership.

      By contrast, I have never seen a potential walk-on rider deterred by the cost of a ticket, and the single person I encountered who was slightly concerned, was reassured when I mentioned that the reverse trip was free.

      1. Yeah, and this could have trickle effects. If the areas close to the ferries on the west side are more dense, then you can justify running more buses there. Then riders who are traveling from other areas would use transit more to get to their location. This would work both directions as well.

      2. Yeah, there’s approximately nothing in walking distance of either terminal. I thought once it might be an interesting trip to go to Bainbridge, but I couldn’t find anything to do there, so I didn’t go. There was a botanical garden I wanted to check out, but the bus service to get there was nonexistent on weekends.

      3. The deterred potential walk-ons do their homework and don’t go to the ferry dock. I am several of them, if you count the number of ferry rides I would take each year if I was not being charged like I am bringing half an automobile on board.

        Seriously, they charge less for a full-size vehicle than they do for each passenger in the vehicle. That is crazy pricing.

      4. Bainbridge has Winslow, which is its downtown.

        In Bremerton you can walk ten minutes north past several streets that still remind you of its blue-collar navy history, turn right and cross the Manette bridge to Manette, a kind of small old suburb, and go east to small Bachman Park on the water and watch the view. I did that one year. It’s not a tourist-attraction experience but it’s an interesting way to spend an afternoon. I also went to the 4th of July military parade.

      5. Mike Orr,
        I recommend a stop at Saboteur bakery in Manette to get some fresh baked pastries for your walk.

      6. When I was in Manette there was an old radio shop. It was closed so I couldn’t go in, but it’s part of the early 1960s atmosphere.

      7. Seriously, they charge less for a full-size vehicle than they do for each passenger in the vehicle. That is crazy pricing.

        Only if you have three adults (or more). Those under 18 are free. There are discounts for seniors. So you can have two parents and a couple kids in the back of a sedan and they will charge you more for the car then the passengers. If you decide to bring grandma along it is still more expensive for the car. If you bring grandma and grandpa along then it is more expensive for the passengers but by then you’re driving a minivan which costs more. https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/ferries/fares/faresdetail.aspx?departingterm=7&arrivingterm=4

        I’m not saying the fares are fair — the passenger fares should be lower. But they aren’t that crazy. Either way there is a strong incentive to carpool or leave the car at home.

        Put it another way. Imagine they shifted things a bit; charge more for the car and less for the passengers. That doesn’t change the dynamic much. If someone needs to use the car on the other end it is about the same. If they plan on going downtown then they have to deal with parking — there isn’t much savings. So it really is only with something like a visit to someplace that has good transit but also easy (cheap) parking. Throw in the hassle (and cost) of driving and I just don’t see many people that would change their behavior.

    4. The ferries are like the monorail. Some people take them for fun — some people treat them like any other form of transit. In both cases the passenger fares are too high. But in both cases I don’t think you would see a huge increase in ridership if you lowered the fairs to a more reasonable level. In the case of the monorail it should be the same as Link or a Metro bus ($3 adult, $1 reduced fare). In the case of the ferries I don’t what is a reasonable fare but it should be cheaper than it is now. Right now it is $11.05 round trip (although youth are free). Maybe $5 each way (or $10 round trip). It seems like it should be a bit higher, in the same way that riding Sounder from Tacoma to Seattle is more expensive. It is a premium service. It is easy to argue that “they are running the ferry anyway, with all the cars” but they are trying to raise money as well.

      1. The legislature treats the ferries as more of a cost center than roads or other public transit―WSF has a mandate to raise a fixed amount at the farebox that comes out to about 60-70% of the operating costs, and they routinely raise fares for this reason. As a result, the base fare has definitely crept a bit higher than what it seems like it should be based on the base fares for other regional transit, but it gets kind of crazy when you account for the fact that they don’t accept transfers, just like the monorail. If I lived near the Link and I wanted to visit Poulsbo for the Viking Fest, I would buy a day pass for $6.00 for round-trips on the Link and the Kitsap Transit 390 to Poulsbo, and then I would still have to pay $11.25 for the round-trip on the ferry. That’s $17.25 for a day trip!

      2. Good point. That is probably the first think I would ask for: accept transfers. Same goes for the monorail.

        The way in which they set fares is also just silly. It is clear they are increasing it based on inflation but is kind of big pain if you are paying cash. Fares should be round amounts (for both cars and pedestrians).

      3. The monorail accepts ORCA passes. Just buy a day pass, and the upcharge each direction on the monorail is $1. And then the rest of your trips for the day on buses and Link are free. That goes for RRFP and LIFT passholders, too.

      4. Oh I did not know that. I guess I wasted money on the monorail. I used Link to Westlake and took the monorail to Seattle Center.

        Will note for future trips. Last time I visited the Seattle Center, I got a day pass and I avoided the monorail and used Route 62 + L8 last time, Stopped by the Amazon Spheres on the way. But if it’s only a buck extra, might as well use the monorail.

    5. I don’t find the round trip ferry fare to be much different than a Sounder fare between South Tacoma and Seattle. And Cascades between Seattle and Tukwila is higher. It’s just that WSF fares are collected only in one direction.

      If ridership is incentivized by cheaper fares, then the Federal Way opening of Link should be drawing more riders from South Sounder and Lynnwood Link from North Sounder. Sounder fares are at least $1 more.

      1. Sound Transit accepts ORCA transfers and passes. WSF does not.

        The all-day pass on Link/Metro/streetcars/STX/CT/ET/PT is $6.

        The upcharge to then ride the ferry across the Sound is $11.10. But they’ll let you bring a full-size car for just $8.60 extra. Upside-down pricing.

      2. That’s true if you’re going one way; if you’re going round trip bringing your car along costs an additional $28.25 (I used the 22′ max car length to match your figure, rather than the 14′ max length). Despite being able to loop around without using the ferry via Tacoma Narrows (or further south), I assume most drivers and nearly all walk-on passengers do travel both ways on the ferry.

        Of course, if we’re talking one-way only travel, if you’re heading west it’s free to walk on and $19.70 to bring along your pet car, so there’s that… ;-)

    6. I agree that they should allow ORCA transfers, passes, and LIFT, but I think the biggest problem for walk-on ridership on the commuter routes (i.e., not the rural service routes to places like the San Juans where there isn’t much demand) is the incredibly high headways. WSF has hour plus headways because the individual ferries are incredibly expensive, which is almost entirely because they are all car ferries. The state ferry system would have better ridership and would be in a much less precarious situation with their fleet if it was not focused around serving cars. The Kitsap Transit ferry system is a testament to this.

      The original sin here is that we allowed so much exurban growth throughout the Seattle-accessible parts of the West Sound; many of these people still work in the city, but the development incentives have been completely flipped to incentivize growth in the exurbs instead of the city for the last 60+ years. As a result, we have these sprawling, car-dependent communities like Bainbridge and Kingston (and the rest of North Kitsap) that rely on ferry access, and so the limited runs of car ferries that made sense for isolated rural communities have become commuter routes, except that we’ve basically kept extremely inconvenient rural service levels because we have to serve cars. Ideally, these places would’ve mostly stayed rural with any allowed growth clustered densely around ferry terminals, which would enable more of the few smaller, cheaper county foot ferries that we have now. The Kitsap Transit fast ferries already run 35 minute peak headways Seattle-Bremerton, and we could easily get that down to 15 minutes with a few more boats, which would be pretty amazing!

      1. What if the fast ferries allowed space for one motorcycle, first-come-first-serve. They could then become part of the state highway system and funded by gas tax.

  2. The “asking the legislature to solve it link” doesn’t work (without auth anyway).

  3. According to Pantograph, the new overnight route between Seattle and SeaTac is going to be numbered 570:

    https://pantographapp.com/pugetsound/routes/1/102758?t=History

    I could tell by that routing. Has ST even confirmed that it’s going to be numbered the 570? I saw a route list of routes without trips scheduled for today and saw that one… I thought they were trolling with me or it was a mistake or a former route but I checked the route list and it’s a real route!?

    2. Scooby, SoundTransit’s “trolling” activities are broad-based. So far as is known, they’re not trolling individuals at this time, but if it happens, we’ll warn you, for sure.

    3. The reason you don’t see any schedule for today is because in trip file in GTFS, newly added 570’s trip patterns (for weekday, Saturday, and Sunday respectively) have start dates that are in the future. Every trip pattern has a start date and an end date. That’s how a proactive GTFS update won’t screw any service/application it feeds into.

  4. Random observation but I noticed they moved the trolley wires over on the southbound side of Rainier Ave so the 7 can use the bus lane now.

    3. Yes. I noticed the change about a month ago.

      Did Metro move the Rainier bus stops to be in front of the escalators yet? Relatedly, did Metro move the 23rd Ave stops to be at the Link station entrance too?

      1. Last time I rode the 48 (been a few weeks) I recall seeing signs but the bus wasn’t stopping yet. I see bus stops on my phone with a “service resumes 3/28” so they are just waiting until service begins

      2. The new stops near Judkins Park station on Rainier and on 23rd will open March 28.

  5. I just noticed that drinking alcohol on transit is actively supported on ferries, but banned on ground transit.

      1. I’m guessing it’s because ferries sell alcohol products on the ferry, but ground transit is different because they don’t provide alcohol or sell it. Ferries are also larger.

      2. I think if buses had room for a galley and multiple employees staffing it, we’d see alcoholic beverages for sale. It’s not just alcohol that’s banned from ground transit; all food consumption is.

    2. The captain is also somewhat insulated from mayhem, and probably won’t crash the boat if revelers get out of hand on the party deck. They also have a decent sized crew that can handle anyone over-imbibing.

      None of that is true for a bus or train.

      1. Yeah, buses generally don’t allow it (although it wouldn’t surprise me if some long distance, private buses do). It is too much to ask the driver to deal with it.

        Otherwise it is generally based on how long and how crowded the trip is. Some trains allow alcohol while some ferries don’t. For example, I don’t think they allow alcohol on the SeaBus. The trip is too short and too crowded. It is basically like a large metro train. In contrast they allow (and sell alcohol) on the BC Ferries. Likewise long distance trains tend to allow booze while very few (if any) metros do.

      2. Hopefully some of the crew are keeping an eye on the pilot. Drunken ferry accidents are not cheap.

      3. Speaking of drunken ship captains, did you ever hear of the Costa Concordia? The story of that tragedy is *wild*

    3. Well. Amtrak it’s true. But you can drink on Amtrak. Actually not sure what the rules are for Sounder.

      1. You can’t drink your own alcohol on Amtrak, you have to purchase your alcohol from Amtrak.

        Unless you booked sleeper accommodations, then you can bring you own and consume it in your room.

    4. But probably the elephant in the room is class perceptions, and who’s riding each type of transit. A ferry rider sipping a chardonnay and watching the sunset is perceived differently than someone drinking a 40 in the back of the bus. Crappy but true.

      1. How many ferry riders drink chardonnay rather than basic beer? Not those going to ballgames probably.

      2. Six. ;)

        I have no idea, though I have definitely seen people drinking wine. The larger point, which still holds if they are drinking a Reuben’s IPA or a glass of wine, is that there are definitely perceived class differences between ferry riders and bus riders, and I suspect alcohol rules are to some degree made based on those often erroneous perceptions.

      3. The class differences are certainly perceived and also, I think, quite real. The state ferry system is uniquely hostile to the poor: WSF doesn’t accept ORCA LIFT, transfers, or passes, and the fare gates are always on the more urban sides of routes. The fare gate thing is surely unintended, but it does mean that the only time you can get something resembling a LIFT fare is when you’re leaving the generally wealthy ferry-accessible exurbs. The implication is not particularly subtle.

      4. A beer on the ferry with some food from the Pike Place area is absolutely sublime – and yes, totally class-driven.

      5. “The state ferry system is uniquely hostile to the poor”

        The entire west Sound is hostile to the poor. The ferry system is a symptom of it. Lower-income people who live there are faced with nonexistent transit to many places, egregiously infrequent transit when it does exist, and business and homes that are sprawled out and don’t even try minimize the walking distance between them.

        When I asked Martin how Skagit County compares to a rural area in Germany, he said here people live in isolated houses at their farms or those without farms, while in Germany they live in village clusters and commute to their farms, so it’s easier for a higher level of rural transit to serve all those villages.

        The biggest factor in early Washington history was the private monopoly railroads with “robber baron” pricing. This created a populist backlash against them that extended to other forms of transit. There was a constitutional amendment to prevent gas-tax money from being spent on non-highway purposes. So when the state ferry system was set up, it was defined as a part of the highway system so that it could access the gas tax. Separately, many people had a dream of living like aristocrats with large houses and large yards, beyond what they needed for farming, and they were hostile to density even in their towns because they saw that as like the big, bad cities. So that’s how the west sound grew in a sprawling manner, and the nature of the ferries and car dependency all stem from that.

    6. Caltrain allows alcohol. And when it was the Big Game (Cal vs Stanford) you’d see a staggering amount of alcohol brought onboard and consumed on the train. And it wasn’t Chardonnay.

    7. I recall a similar situation in New York. Metro North (commuter rail to the north suburbs) allowed drinking, but it wasn’t allowed anywhere else.

    8. The 19.2oz can isn’t just for stadiums and malt liquor. It’s a common package size for craft beer sold in convince stores near commuter rail stations in in the Chicago area.

      Honestly I wish we’d make a shift from heavily regulating alcohol and actually requiring civil behavior on transit (and in other public spaces).

  6. When will this so-called “transit blog” write about what we all want to know: how the WSF anniversary beer tastes 🍺?

    1. I’ll have to research it. Next time I’m on a ferry I’ll definitely have a beer. Tough work, but someone has to do it.

  7. Good to know that NE 85th roundabout is coming online in a couple months. This is the stage when they will remove the final pieces of previous cloverleaf interchange leave and shrink the interchange footprint.

  8. LA’s D line Extension opens May 8.

    Along with our crosslake 2 Line opening later this month, this opening is probably the most consequential this year within the US. It will likely add well over 10K more riders on LA’s rail system. (I can’t seem to find the official estimate.)

    https://thesource.metro.net/its-official-d-line-extension-section-1-to-open-on-may-8/

    It also puts several incredible museums on the rail system. That includes the huge LA County Museum of Art and the Academy (of motion pictures) museum.

    The rail connection between the Wilshire corridor and LAX is still horrible — but if someone is living or staying in many parts of LA County, a museum visit via train ride with a single transfer will be possible in just a few weeks!

      1. The same reason Vegas lacks a decent transit connection between the airport and the strip. Because the it would be bad for business for the airport parking, rental car, and taxi industry.

      2. The LAX rail connection has been really messy and delayed for years. Another delay is being announced this week.

        https://nypost.com/2026/03/02/us-news/lax-automated-people-mover-stalled/

        The K Line extension further north to the Westside has been in plan development, but the actual project is still at least 20 years away.

        https://www.metro.net/projects/kline-northern-extension/

        A rail transit trip from LAX to the museum area after May 8 is:

        — Shuttle bus (soon people mover) to the LAX C or K Line Station
        — C Line to A Line then transfer to A Line to DTLA (7th/ MetroCenter) , or K Line to E Line then transfer to E Line to DTLA (7th/ MetroCenter)
        — D Line from DTLA to the museums

        So even when the LAX people mover opens it would be three rail transfers (four rail vehicles in total).

      3. I guess partly because people from LAX are going to all sorts of places in the area. A line from downtown LA to airport is long and expensive and it might not even serve enough people to justify the price tag. At least Sepulveda Line will be heavy rail. So DTLA to LAX by heavy rail (with transfer) can come true in a couple decades.

        I think the LAX people mover will be a huge improvement. Last time I was in town, I literally slow walk from Terminal 1 to Terminal 6 and caught the Flyaway bus I missed by q minutes at Terminal 1 stop.
        With people mover bypassing messy terminal traffic, Flyaway is sort of an ok if your destination is Downtown LA.

  9. For those wondering about taking East Link to Cirque du Soleil in Marymoor Park? I drove to the Marymoor P&R garage the other day while running errands; the Cirque tents are visible from the station and about a 10-minute walk away. I figure they’re about the same distance from the P&R as Lumen Field is from the CID station as the crow flies.

    1. Somebody said Cirque was moving out of Marymoor Park and something else would eventually take its place. Did Cirque decide not to, or is it just after this year?

    2. Cirque du Soleil closes March 14th before the crosslake opening. However the 2 Line trains are already running later. Has anyone used the 2 Line to get to a show this season (or chatted with someone who did)? How was it?

      1. My son and his friend used Link from Bel-Red to get to Cirque du Soleil. They met friends in DT Redmond before the show. It was great. Day ticket $6 vs parking at Marymoor $25 and you’re not stuck in traffic. Plus you can add a pre or post show stop to socialize.

    3. To be honest, I’m surprised people driving to the show aren’t parking at the Link garage in greater numbers. It would such an easy way to avoid a $20 parking fee, plus you avoid a bunch of traffic on the way out. And you don’t even have to ride the train.

      1. There may have been “No Cirque Parking” signs at the garage, I don’t know. I did see a lot of people parking at the office/light industrial park near the garage, so much so that they had crowd control people patrolling the streets and lots, like those guys in yellow windbreakers watching the fans at a sporting event.

        Cirque’s website said they strongly encouraged public transportation. That makes me think they’ll definitely come back next year when cross-lake service is up and running. I’d love to see how much that boosts attendance from Seattleites.

  10. I was chatting with a retired friend who drove to Shoreline North to park and take Link to a Downtown Seattle midday dentist appointment yesterday. He said the parking garage there was full so he could not park there. He ended up driving Downtown because he could not miss his appointment.

    Shoreline North has 360 spaces. The average weekday ridership there has now climbed to the 2 K range. (Note that ST has not fixed the inflated data for the last two January weeks as of today.)

    Interestingly, he lives two short blocks west of Aurora. Yet he wanted to take Link instead of RapidRide E. He didn’t consider taking a bus to Link either.

    I found this anecdote to be curious — and a possible basis for discussing lots of things, like:

    1. Should Link garages have some short-term midday, maybe metered parking?
    2. Should ST be able to disclose how full parking garages are before riders leave home?
    3. Should there be greater focus on frequent feeder buses to Link in Shoreline?
    4. Is there a neighborhood parking intrusion happening near Shoreline Link stations?

    I think these kinds of real-world experiences are good barometers about what Link means for casual riders.

    1. I remember someone mentioned a “balancing” occurring with the park and ride lots. At first Lynnwood was overflowing. But as time has gone on, people have begun spreading out. There is a lot of of flux with the ridership but it appears though ridership at Lynnwood has leveled off while ridership at the other stations has grown. This would be consistent with that pattern. As to your points:

      1) There has been talk about charging for parking. I think it would be a good idea.
      2) Absolutely. Drivers should know which garages are full or not.
      3) You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. There are a lot of feeder buses. So much of the Snohomish County bus system is geared around Lynnwood Transit Center — a minor destinations if not for Link. The same goes for Mountlake Terrace and the two Shoreline stations. I am not happy with the transit network in Shoreline but with the exception of the 333 not connecting to Link, that isn’t the problem.
      4) Good question. Typically changes like this come with lots of signs limiting parking to 4-hours.

    2. Some people will ride a train but won’t ride a bus. I don’t really understand these people, but they exist.

      We should be charging fees at any park-and-ride that fills up.

      1. Really should be using a distributed P&R strategy. Don’t build huge P&Rs at the stations themselves, instead build P&Rs in surrounding communities and have them take a local (but relatively fast) shuttle bus to the train station, as well as any other useful connections.

      2. As for the major P&Rs themselves, maybe do some sort of permit to park system. $20/year and requires approval from some transit agency, based on where you live and your ability to use a bus (or also considering if using the bus would add too much time to your commute due to poor connections). If you can’t access transit easily, you’d be more likely to secure a parking spot. But local P&Rs could be free and city/community maintained.

      3. And each P&R can have multiple tiers of parking. The lowest floors could cost extra, giving you the shortest walk to the bus bay.

        And there should be dedicated drop off and waiting areas for vanpools/carpools that could pick people up at the stations.

      4. I have talked to people that get queasy on a bus but not a train. The jerky side to side triggers motion sickness in some people.

        I even once worked with a woman who needed to always be facing forward when riding rail transit. She told me that she freaked out another rider once because she refused to sit in a fully empty side facing bench in favor of sitting next to someone who was facing forward.

        Other people are sensitive to frequency and perceived safety and noise. Many routes don’t run often, particularly away from peak hours. I don’t like waiting 20 minutes for a bus after dark on a street corner — and that isn’t a worry with Link.

      5. “As for the major P&Rs themselves, maybe do some sort of permit to park system. $20/year and requires approval from some transit agency, based on where you live and your ability to use a bus …”

        In Boston, suburban communities often control parking around a train station. Each one sets their own parking strategy and pricing system. A sticker may be free to car owners in that city but costs money if the owner doesn’t live in that city.

        A case could be made for ST to hand over parking to cities, and those cities would individually set parking durations and rates.

      6. I don’t think parking should be expensive, considering it is a source of ridership that could be depleted if made too expensive. But prices definitely could be controlled by demand.

        And… Maybe some parking discounts if you get an annual / monthly pass with ORCA. I’d definitely hope it’s still public parking, and not privatized to price gouge people.

        Especially would like to see more smaller, free community P&Rs by the cities/counties made available so more people can catch the bus than just people who live nearby. That can help boost ridership on local buses for sporting events / work commuting in suburbs and take away the parking rush from the Link stations.

        At the moment some churches are opening up their lots for that purpose. Would be nice if some other largely empty lots are repurposed.

      7. About buses feeling less comfortable, I think trying to expand the Rapid Ride experience as the standard for all Metro routes would be a great goal. What would then differentiate a Rapid Ride is extraordinary speed / infrastructure using freeway or busway lengths. Local routes should be easily able to implement TSP and off board payment for cheap. TSP would be timed to anticipate a bus arrival and keep the light green a bit in advance to clear out the intersection for the bus to make way shortly after. Red paint / bus lanes may be harder to come by on some routes though, adding to some delays.

        And more people have smartphones now, so off board phone payment (or flat out not having to acknowledge a payment if you have a pass like the U Pass or an ORCA pass) would significantly decrease dwelling times and improve bus riding experience.

        A bus can be a great way to get around if we can avoid it getting stuck in traffic and getting stuck at intersections. All are possible with the right mindset. The quality of roads here are far better than Europe and Asia, so our buses can move way faster if we reallocate a little priority from cars to the bus.

      8. And buses should aim for a stop density of one per intersection. The time spent for bus stops should be roughly equivalent to the time spent by car waiting at intersections and queues.

        For comfort, I really don’t think a bus is that bad. It’s no worse than riding your car. For safety, we should have security on board more buses and stops until the criminals get scared. And security should take real action against people who are being a disturbance or clearly in a wrong state of mind / unhygienic.

      9. Although I just realized for ridership tracking purposes, we probably should still collect that data having someone acknowledge their trip. But it could be done off board or on app.

      10. “I even once worked with a woman who needed to always be facing forward when riding rail transit.”

        When I took my mom on Amtrak Casades to Vancouver BC for the weekend, she wanted to face forward. I don’t remember exactly why, maybe dizziness.

        To me it’s nicer to have the scenery coming toward you, but I don’t mind if it’s coming away from you. What makes me dizzy is trying to read in a car, I have to stop and look out the window when it gets bad.

      11. Agreed with the charging fees part. Part of the reason why it’s been a struggle to ride the bus to and from the station is that the bus isn’t running by the time I arrive at the station late at night. ( Lynnwood Station )

  11. Question for cross-lake riders and drivers. How will the opening of the full 2 Line on March 28th change how you travel, if at all?

    1. I’ll happily switch from the bus to the train, and be glad I don’t have to carefully watch the clock for infrequent headways on the 545 anymore.

      1. Same

        Not sure if I’ll stop taking the bus to the U District, though

      2. The 545 should probably reroute through SLU, since the Link trip is better to get into downtown. The only losers would be people transferring from the Evergreen Pt and Yarrow Pt stations… But honestly if those buses run to UW instead (the 255 already does), the Link transfer really shouldn’t be that bad especially with 4-5 min headways now. I-5 and 520 are a mess nowadays anyways, Link is a lot faster from UW to Downtown than some of the old 255 riders claim. It’s slow south of Seattle, and north of Northgate, but it’s really useful for trips within Seattle and to UW.

      3. Re-routing STX 545 through SLU makes more sense than the old 544 routing that has the time-consuming diversion to South Kirkland P&R.

        Have the route continue through the Central Business District, if it is to be all-day 2-way, not dead-ending in Belltown.

    2. I’ve said for a long time it will help me significantly visiting my relative, and make it easier to go more than once a month. It will make it easier to take people to the recreational areas (downtown Redmond, Marymoor Park, Mercer Slough, Bellevue Downtown Park and vicinity, Judkins Park and the walk to overlooking Lake Washington): right now you have to convince them to take a less-frequent, less-reliable bus and maybe transfer again, or the total round trip takes so long you can’t fit it into the available time, or they want to drive. And those same stations are where you’d go to a unique shop or restaurant or event.

      1. There are still a couple places in Bellevue that will require a bus: Crossroads (best food court in Seattle area) and Factoria (best dim sum, and best Chinese supermarket in Seattle area). But I guess a lot of people will continue to pass up those places.

        I can’t really think of anything worth going to in Redmond that’s not downtown or around Overlake… maybe the farmer’s market? I haven’t been to it since they moved it out of downtown.

      2. Downtown Redmond has several trails. Link is in an old railroad right of way, and if you continue west on the trail there’s an art exhibit inspired by a former railroad depot. Go north one block to Cleveland Street, an example of good urbanism with a partly vintage feel. Go the other way on the trail alongside the Link track, and it crosses a wooden footbridge to Marymoor Village station.

        Continue west on the trail and it connects to the north-south Sammamish River Trail. Go north and it connects to the library and City Hall, and other trails, and to the Woodinville wine country and Northshore cities.

        Continue east to where the trail ends at a street near Marymoor Village station, go a block east, and find the Sammamish River Trail to Issaquah.

        Redmond Town Center is across the street from Downtown Redmond station. It will be renovated into a mixed-use center, although that’s in the future.

      3. Yes, Crossroads requires a bus, B or 245. I grew up near Crossroads and my relative now lives south of there, so I took the 245 through it until the 226 extension to South Bellevue station started last fall. Crossroads has gone downhill since its peak in the 2000s and has more of a dollar-store vibe now that depresses me. I thought the food court was replaced by QFC. It’s still there somewhere? Where?

    3. I will use it 100% of the time for commuting to work (3 days/week). Link $6; not haven’t to deal with afternoon traffic, priceless. My question is when they have a power outage will the bus shuttle get off on Rainer like the 554 or skip that stop and make you backtrack on a regular transit route. If it’s the latter I’ll drive. And if the power outages persist and I find myself forced into taking a bus downtown in the evening to find the shuttle back across the lake then I’ll probably continue to drive.

    4. I live in Kirkland, so I won’t use it super often. But, there have been days when bad traffic causes the 255 to run 30+ minutes behind schedule around 6 PM, which won’t do when I need to be somewhere at a certain time. In the past, the solution was drive to Evergreen Point and catch a 542 or 545. Moving forward, I might consider riding my bike to Whole Foods station and riding the 2 line as an alternative. Getting there on a bike is easy for me, just a straight, flat shot down the CKC.

    5. Even though I technically live on Beacon Hill, the Judkins Park Station will be closer to my home than Beacon Hill Station. I expect to be using the 2 Line several days a week.

      1. I also prefer riding the Kinkisharyo trains to the Siemens trains. I assume that most of the 2 Line trains will be Kinkis. Yes, the lighting in the Kinkis is dimmer, the passenger info boards are ancient, and the seating at the articulation point is cramped, but I like the acceleration and deceleration of the Kinkis better. Overall, the ride seems smoother in the older trains.

      2. The I-90 trail west of Judkins Park curves around the north end of Beacon Hill past Daejon Park with a Korean pagoda and has an exit at 12th Ave S, so you can turn south to Beacon Hill or go north across the Jose Rizal bridge to Little Saigon. If you continue west on the trail, it goes southwest to SODO (the Holgate Street bridge), although I’ve never taken it west of 12th.

      3. The hunting is way, way worse on the older trainsets. Especially at speed. I recommend you ride them on the Tukwila segment or up to Lynnwood. It makes for a bumpy ride!

      4. I’ve felt the hunting on the segment between Tukwila and Rainier Beach, but there’s also a lot of vibration with the Siemens on that segment, too. I mostly ride between Capitol Hill and Rainier Valley, so I don’t spend a lot of time on the high(er) speed segments.

      5. Mike, I highly recommend not walking the Mountains to Sound Greenway west of the Rizal bridge. Bad people hang out that way.

    6. I’ll definitely use the 2 Line to Bellevue from Lynnwood rather than the 535. I’ll also use it going to Redmond from Lynnwood, and I’ll be so happy to take one seat on the way there rather than getting off in U District and boarding a 271 whenever a 535 doesn’t run or I miss it. I once raced a 535 bus on a weekend schedule day and all that running made me miss the 1 Line!

      1. Once Stride opens, I think it would be faster and more comfortable than the 2 Line from Lynnwood to Bellevue. It would skip the UW Bothell route which currently burns time.

      2. Also a Link + 271 IMO is still going to be faster than the 2 Line, outside of peak. And Link + 542 is definitely way better than taking the train all the way. You’d lose 20-30 mins if you take the train all the way to Redmond.

      3. Let’s also keep in mind that Stride will bypass the Alderwood Mall. Though it will serve NE 85th which is the only stop that’s different from the 535 as well as no loop through Downtown Bellevue, travel times should still be faster than the 535 given the express toll lanes.

      4. Yeah, but some people would rather comfortably ride on a light rail train rather than transfer. I go to Bellevue/Redmond for leisurely trips and don’t really need a speedy alternative.

      5. I think Stride S2 looks to be around 15 mins faster than Link to Bellevue. But the 535 may be comparable or only slightly faster.

      6. The only part of Stride S2 that worries me is how congested the NE 85th intersection will be, speaking that it’s already congested and that construction makes it worse and is such a headache.

      8. STX 532 stops at Ash Way P&R, though you have to be commuting in the right direction, at the right time of day, on the right days (weekdays).

        And it is less frequent.

      9. “I think Stride S2 looks to be around 15 mins faster than Link to Bellevue.”

        That’s likely true for Downtown Bellevue. However that advantage goes away mostly if someone is going to another 2 Line station.

        Between the better frequency to Downtown and the added 2 Line destinations (including Judkins Park), I’m expecting that ST will see a 10-20% increase in boardings north of the Ship Canal. The full garages will fill earlier.

      10. “I think Stride S2 looks to be around 15 mins faster than Link to Bellevue.”

        That’s likely true for Downtown Bellevue. However that advantage goes away mostly if someone is going to another 2 Line station.

        It depends on how frequent the bus is and how long it takes to transfer. Let’s say it is rush hour and you are trying to go from Lynnwood to the East Side. You arrive at the transit center and just miss the bus. Link is right there (no waiting). You decide to wait ten minutes for the bus anyway. So you you’ve lost ten minutes in waiting but gained five minutes in travel speed. This means you get there five minutes before the train gets there, giving you plenty of time to catch that same train. This is worst-case scenario. A little better luck and you’ll catch an earlier train (after transferring). So unless you are going to Mercer Island or Judkins Park, it makes sense to catch the bus.

        But that is from Lynnwood. If you are starting at most places south of there, Link is the way to go. Mountlake Terrace, Shoreline, Northgate, Roosevelt, Capitol Hill, Judkins Park — these are all areas where East Link will help commuters quite a bit, even if it involves an initial transfer. That’s because they don’t have direct bus to the East Side and getting to a place (like the U-District or Lynnwood) where they do have a direct bus is often not worth it. At the U-District it gets complicated. It depends on the buses, where you are starting exactly and where they are headed. If I’m going from Campus Parkway to Downtown Bellevue I would probably catch the 270. If I’m trying to get from UW Medical Center to Wilburton I’m taking the train.

      11. It’s a great point about how Stride 2 is really only competing with Link only from Lynnwood, Ross.

        It comes back to a larger truth about the ST3 plan, which is the components were chosen and presented to win votes rather than to actually provide a faster and a more convenient and productive transit journey. A typical voter looks at that abstract general map imagining that it looks comprehensive — and doesn’t think about whether it makes sense to actually use. The way that the various stations are accessed (especially for transferring) in particular and the anticipated ridership are not given much thought.

        Stride 1 suffers from the Renton off-freeway access problem and the skipping of SouthCenter (and its many great possible bus transfers) and Factoria destinations. That’s subtly ignored in the referendum graphic but it’s mostly a souped up express bus service to Downtown Bellevue from park and rides.

        Stride 2 similarly mostly connects park and ride lots with Downtown Bellevue (Totem Lake has free parking so it’s much less of a destination.) Like Stride 1, it skips a possible big day-long destination: Alderwood. It also makes it appear like a good option from anyone on Everett Link north of Lynnwood — but the graphic never conveys how once a rider is on Link from a place like Mariner, they won’t make the effort to walk down those 67 steps and walk a block to then wait for Stride at Lynnwood TC; they’ll just stay seated on the train because it’s much easier and doesn’t require a transfer. And Lynnwood TC is destined to become “just another Link parking garage with some nearby residential apartments” station once Everett Link stations open further north.

        Finally, even though the description calls for two lines, the ST3 graphic implies that a single Stride line will run between Lynnwood and Burien.

        https://www.soundtransit.org/sites/default/files/project-documents/st3-system-plan-2016.pdf

        At least Stride 1 and 2 is less expensive to build and maintain than Link is. But I think these two Stride lines do a poor job of providing anything more than a Downtown Bellevue commuter bus that it will be tough to expand to be anything much greater without more infill or extension stops.

        PS. Unlike Downtown Seattle that is much more of a day-long regional destination, people go to Downtown Bellevue to work in an office or sometimes shop at Bellevue Square (which has many duplicative stores to SouthCenter and Alderwood).

      12. Stride 1 and 2 is an upgrade to the existing ST Express routes; it doesn’t promise to do anything more. The 560 doesn’t serve Factoria, and Stride won’t. But Stride will serve 85th, which gives at least better access to downtown Kirkland, so that’s something. Kirkland is much larger than Factoria and its own city.

        As for “Totem Lake has free parking so it’s much less of a destination”, that free parking doesn’t help people without a car who want to go to Totem Lake, but faster and more frequent Stride service will help them. Totem Lake is a destination to those who go there, and it has the potential to be a larger and more walkable urban center (i.e., a more attractive destination) if Kirkland ever takes the opportunity seriously.

      13. “Kirkland is much larger than Factoria and its own city.”

        What own city? Are you trying to imply that the density of the Factoria area is the equivalent of a city or Bellevue or what? Kirkland has a destination like Factoria, and that is Totem Lake. Stride S1 also seems less attractive around the I-90 area because it bypasses the entire Factoria area without even a freeway stop at Coal Creek Pkwy. Honestly there needs to be more stops on the S1 between Renton and Bellevue, the S1 also bypasses Newcastle. To me it’s easy to forget that Newcastle even exists, speaking of how it’s a transit desert.

      14. I just assume Newcastle has no interest in allowing access to anyone who doesn’t have access to a car.

      15. Sound Transit’s estimates put S2 at 20m faster than Line 2 at peak. It should be 30m faster off peak

    7. I will use it on my commute (four days/week) to start. Due to my early start in the office it will actually cost me about a half-hour in the morning (drive to Northgate, then Link as opposed to the drive over 520), but be about the same/slightly better than driving in the afternoon/evening. The advantage there is not needing to pay attention as to when I leave work, and the potential of stopping off for dinner or shopping or events on my way home. Were the 75 to serve Pinehurst directly once it opens I wouldn’t have to drive at all and would save a few minutes both ways to boot.

      That said, we’ll see how much I enjoy leaving home at 6am rather than 6:30… ;)

    8. It will really be nice to visit family. My partner and I live near the Capitol Hill station and don’t have a car. Her grandparents are in a retirement community a few blocks from the Downtown Bellevue station and her parents live in Sammamish, which will be easy enough to get to with Link + 269. Also our dogs love the Marymoor dog park so we will be excited to take them there on occasion!

  12. Does anybody know if the link shuttle last night between Lynnwood and Northgate ran on a Metro or a CT bus? I checked Pantograph and it didn’t say anything, and I really don’t want to go too far I go check it out for myself at night.

  13. Is there any word on what’s going on with Line 2’s cross lake connection? Will they be able to resolve the electrical issues and keep the opening date, or have bigger issues been uncovered?

    1. Bet they’ll delay it. The persistent issues are worrying. It’s not just an inconvenience but it’s a safety threat if the power goes out while trains are running.

      1. The March 28 date should be final, delaying it would definitely be a loophole for ST. But let’s hope that they won’t do that.

    2. Today they had a Sound Transit employee ride across the bridge. So it was unrelated to power issues as to why simulated service wasn’t operating on the west side.

  14. The WSDOT Blog post about the peanut style roundabout, and the interchange at 85th street says this.

    “After the roundabout opens, work will continue on level one. Crews will build walls, install utilities, and get the road ready for new ramps to level two. On level two, crews will place large bridge beams for the new Stride bus rapid transit station and the Sound Transit 2 Line platform. This middle level will serve multimodal users – bus riders, light rail riders, carpoolers, toll lane users, cyclists, and people walking and rolling.”

    Wait! What? The middle level will serve LIGHT RAIL RIDERS? What do they know that I don’t?

    1. I think they’re building the middle level to potentially support light rail trains as a forward thinking design.

    2. It’s just talking about light rail users transferring to the stride 2 brt. Like someone from Kirkland heading to Mercer island riding the stride 2 brt then taking the line 2 to Mercer island

      1. If that’s what they mean, why aren’t they also saying it’ll serve Amtrak riders? Or airplane passengers? Probably some of those going through, too!

      2. > If that’s what they mean, why aren’t they also saying it’ll serve Amtrak riders? Or airplane passengers? Probably some of those going through, too!

        I’m not quite sure why ya’ll are surprised they will list light rail users as the second one. That was the point of Stride 2 to connect to Lynnwood station at the north end and Bellevue station on the south end.

      3. I don’t think so. The article says ” bus riders, light rail riders,…..”

        stride riders would fall under ‘bus’.

        Really my guess is that someone got careless and was thinking of multimodal forms of transport and didn’t edit ‘light rail’ out before they published it. Call it a typo I suppose.

        I’ve never heard of that intersection being designed for future light rail either.

        Or maybe it’s wishful thinking that there could be some sort of trolley from downtown kirkland from the interchange at some point in the future – but if that is the case a bus will work just as well.

    3. Sound Transit’s long-range plan includes potential light rail between 520 and Bothell. Since the mid 2010s it has been outlining potential concepts; e.g., Ballard-UW-Kirkland-Bothell, Northgate-Lake City-Bothell-Kirkland, UW-Lake City-Bothell-Kirkland, UW-Sand Point-Kirkland, or an extension of the Issaquah-South Kirkland line north to Bothell. The Issaquah-South Kirkland line was originally going to go to downtown Kirkland at least, but the last part was scuttled by a three-way disagreement between ST, Kirkland, and a Save Our Trail activist group on putting Link or BRT on the Cross Kirkland Connector rail corridor. So it’s entirely possible WSDOT is acomodating a stub for potential future light rail on 405 at 85th, the way the I-90 renovation in the 1980s built the Hadley Mercer Island Bridge with the potential for future rail.

      ST3 includes some corridor studies to prepare for potential ST4 Link extensions. I don’t know where, but it may include one of these Kirkland corridors.

      1. The ultimate ST4 to finish off regional rail.

        Light Rail
        – Lots of lines in Seattle or a subway ideally
        – 5 Line from Renton to Seattle along Rainier Beach
        – Re-route 1 Line to Lake City by going past Mount Baker via Montlake/UW/U Village

        Regional Rail
        – Extend 4 Line to Wallingford via UW across SR 520
        – 5 Line from SeaTac to Lynnwood along I-405 stopping in Tukwila, Renton, S Bellevue, Bellevue, Wilburton, S Kirkland, Kirkland, Totem Lake, Bothell on the way
        – Bypass line from airport via Georgetown into Seattle

        Express Buses
        – Reallocate Stride buses onto SR 167, I-90, and I-5

      2. Here’s some feedback on your ideas:

        Light Rail
        – This is so brief, also Seattle doesn’t seem interested in building a subway system. The point is a light rail system and not a subway system.
        – Are you saying this “5 Line” is an addition to the MLK segment of the 1 Line? Are you routing the 5 Line from Seattle to Renton along MLK and Sunset?
        – Are you trying to construct a 1 Line extension along 23rd and Ravenna? Dang, I used to muse that but talk about the fate of the 48 and the 372/72.

        Regional Rail
        – Of course the SR 520 bridge might get light rail (as they built it for potential future light rail)… But is a 4 Line extension the way to go? Of course it’s the closest thing to SR 520 and it would go through the UW but… Would you add a Ballard extension? That has more potential than Wallingford in terms of being a terminal, of course a tunnel under the 44’s corridor would be expensive but I think you’re going for provisional.
        – What!? Don’t you mean the 6 Line? Also I’ve mused I-405 light rail but Ross has turned down that idea because of how low ridership will be, I think I-405 is better off with BRT than light rail.
        – Many people have mused this, if a bypass line is ever built in favor of MLK it should cut through Burien and Georgetown via SR 509.

        Express Buses
        – Are you proposing BRT lines for SR 167, I-5, and I-90? I-5 has the 1 and 2 lines, I-90 will have the 2 and 4 lines, and SR 167 has… Peak commuter rail? No, we ought to do better… How about getting into an agreement with BNSF?

  15. I wonder what the future of sr 520 buses will be after full east link opens. Beyond just 542 u district to Redmond

    Like will wsdot still want to build the hov ramps at 112th Ave heading east. Or also will they still try to move the hov lanes to the center for the rest of sr520. But then the bus will be stuck on the wrong side for many of the bus stops

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