51 Replies to “Sunday Open Thread: Obey the Speed Limit”
We know where Mike McGinn stands on projects designed to get cars to obey the speed limit in high pedestrian traffic areas. Does anyone know whether Ed Murray will stand behind these projects?
I have an honest and sincere question. I often hear people say, “If only more people used public transportation, and drove less, this area would be a much better place to live!” That made me curious. Which US city has the highest percentage of public transportation use? Whichever city it is, it has to be some sort of Shangri-La, right? But I must have made a mistake in my research. The number one city is Hoboken, NJ. So now I’m confused. Is our goal in this region to become more like Hoboken?
Have you been to Hoboken? Hoboken is so nice that it’s not cool anymore. It’s basically like Fremont, and it’s only a 15 minute train ride to Manhattan. The worst thing about Hoboken is all the tourists that come for the Cake Boss.
Hoboken is a suburb of New York. It has a high percentage of commuters because so many workers are heading to Manhattan. The list in Forbes is dominated by suburbs of New York and Washington D.C.
If you look at the Census data, which is quite interesting and well worth a read, the metropolitan areas with the greatest transit usage are New York, San Francisco, D.C., Boston, Chicago, Philadelphia, Seattle, Baltimore, Los Angeles, Portland. I think Boston in particular is a good model for Seattle.
Working up the list from the bottom I see Dallas, Detroit, Orlando, Phoenix, Houston, Miami. It would be interesting to see the data cross indexed with metropolitan area size.
That’s right. We’ve come here to build New Hoboken, and be careful what you say about it or you’ll be goin’ for a swim in the Hudson.
Hoboken is for people too poor to live in NYC.
They mainly ride PATH trains to their low paying jobs in Mahattan and then come back to live in crummy old row houses.
If that’s your idea of paradise, it’s ready and waiting for you on the East Coast.
John,
I fear you are living in the past. That may have been true when you were growing up in Queens, but it is no longer. The place has radically gentrified.
Hoboken’s National Night Out Against Crime draws hundreds to Church Square Park
For the mainstream population, transit in Hoboken, NJ exists for one purpose and one purpose only – to get to New York. For all other trips, nearly everyone drives.
It does not surprise me that there are enough commuters to NYC to drive up the transit modeshare (at least for work commute trips) to among the highest in the nation, but transit only for work and driving for everything else is very different than life within Manhattan, where transit is the mainstream way to get around for all trips at all times of day.
As mentioned I grew up in Queens, NYC where “everyone” uses transit.
My dad was a CPA who worked in Manhattan. He would take a bus to a subway, like the Q10 to the E/F train. At some point he wanted to “get healthy” so he walked the 1.1 miles to the Aqueduct A line station. Then as he got older, he took the $5 express bus that stopped about 5 blocks away.
For the first 10 years of my existence, my Mom didn’t drive. So we walked everywhere…she, my two sisters, my brother and I. I remember tedious trips to the supermarket going there with a baby carriage and coming back with a supermarket cart (they didn’t really care back then, as eventually people would bring them back).
However, we always had a car, and every recreational trip when he was around was done by car. Families in our neighborhood where the Mom drove…always drove!
Hoboken is .8 miles wide by (not quite) 1.5 miles long, and is entirely ringed by topographical barriers. The vast majority of local errands are completed on foot.
Meanwhile, John hasn’t been to Hoboken in decades. It is 150% gentrified.
One should also note that previously underutilized and non-residential areas of Hoboken have been filled with new construction that is highly dense, is not particularly tall, has excellent frontage with few setbacks, and is not the least bit ugly.
So yeah, it can be done.
@dp
So what are you waiting for?
420 Madison StAPT 3R, Hoboken, NJ 07030
Hoboken, NJ 07030
By Owner: $349,000
Zestimate®: $361,581
Est. Mortgage:$1,374/mo
PATH also goes to Jersey City and Newark. These cities may not have the unique record-breaking ridership and density of Hoboken but they’re up there. PATH is fuller than the subways even at 10pm, and consists of a wide range of people, mostly lower middle class or working class, like our 120 and 131/132 but with more white-collar types. It is mostly used for going to Manhattan because I gather there’s not a lot of travel demand between Newark, Journal Square, Hoboken, and Pavonia. It can only go between these neighborhoods, not any other crosstown trips. But given that it’s pretty full doing just that, it has an important niche.
One interesting thing about PATH is that there are all-day feeder buses to it, both free ones run by the port authority and fare-charging ones run by the transit agency, both overlapping at the same bus stops in some cases. So you can get to PATH even if you don’t live near a station. I wondered why anyone would take the paid buses when the free bus comes every hour or so, but of course when you want to travel, you want to travel and damn the fare. I ended up taking the paid bus sometimes. :)
One must note that cities in New Jersey are an aberration, a novelty, not the norm.
New Jersey (and Connecticut) as states are very dense, but as a network of towns and suburbs served by a network or highways. There are also large parkland and rural areas, but the core of Central Jersey are towns like New Brunswick and around Princeton and the housing developments, office parks and shopping malls that pervade those areas.
New Jersey has also kept some small towns in their middle 20th century state, with shops and walkways, as well as super modern car oriented commercial plazas. There are also many farms and local produce.
It shows how a state can be modern and prosperous and yet not suffer the imbalances of having one really large city, and an virtually empty state. I think that is a better design for Washington State than cramming everyone into the solitary towers of one city.
China trying to cap number of vehicles to ease congestion. I love this quote from the article… “Policy makers know they cannot kill the demand for cars,” said Lin Huaibin, a Shanghai-based analyst at auto researcher IHS Automotive. “If people really want to buy a vehicle, these policies won’t stand in their way.” And this one… “We can’t do business without a car in such a huge city,” Beijing-based fruit importer Jason Chi said, explaining that after two years of failing at the lottery he registered his Buick Excelle for 100 yuan ($16) about an hour’s drive away in Langfang, Hebei province. Applying twice a year for permission – – with restrictions — to drive in Beijing is a worthwhile hassle, he said. “What other choice do I have?”
Car ownership is simply a measure of broad based economic growth.
Car sales plummeted in Europe, but are growing in Russia and China.
Russia will be Europe’s largest car market by 2016
The Russian automobile market is poised to overtake Germany and become Europe’s largest by 2016, and the world’s fifth biggest, by 2020, according to a new report.
A growing middle class, an increase in car ownership, low fuel prices, and Russia’s expanding economy are all factors that will drive the Russian car market, according to a forecast by the Boston Consulting Group.
Fine educational video! Speed matters, and always will matter, even after cars (and trucks and buses) with automatic braking (triggered by sensors and vehicle-to-vehicle communications that detect a reason to slow or stop) reach deployment.
Last week, I had my first bad experience with Car2Go. I was traveling just under 3 miles with a lot of luggage. After a few failed attempts to get the trunk opened, I finally got my suitcase into the trunk by tossing it over the passenger seat. Then, after I reached my destination, I spent a good 5-10 minutes trying to figure out why I couldn’t take the key out of the ignition. Eventually, I realized that the car was still in drive and switching it to park fixed that problem, but I was still unable to end the trip because it kept saying the trunk wasn’t closed. Apparently, my failed attempts to get the trunk open had accidentally left some piece of it ajar. Another 5-10 minutes of frantically trying every trunk-related switch I could find, the trunk was closed and I was on my way. But, in the process, I more than doubled the cost of the trip, as every minute I spent fiddling with the ignition key or the trunk was on the clock.
This got me thinking – for a short jaunt across town, does pay-by-the-minute really make sense? Would it have been better if they simply charged a per-mile rate for trips under an hour, with time-based charges only on trips over an hour? After all, the marginal decrease in vehicle availability caused by a trip taking 20 minutes instead of 10 is negligible, so the only real reason why a 20-minute trip should cost $10, while a 10-minute trip costs $5 is the extra gas+wear+tear resulting from the longer trip. (For longer trips, this logic no longer holds, so time-based charges still make sense). I would also argue that creating incentives for people to rush in loading and unloading their stuff, speed, drive aggressively, run yellow lights, etc. creates unnecessary stress.
Even though in my case, I felt I was not justified to call and complain, due to the fact that the problems were 100% pilot error, a business model that relies on punishing customers for silly mistakes to make money seems problematic. Car2Go is still a great service and I will still continue to use it, but next time I need to carry more luggage than can fit on the passenger seat, I will likely try Lyft or Sidecar instead.
From the standpoint of the person who wants your car instead of you, those ten minutes are ten minutes. Whether you’re stuck in traffic, futzing with the trunk or having car sex during those ten minutes is totally irrelevant to that person.
The length that a car is typically idle between uses, is typically on the order of a few hours, although it can vary wildly, depending on the location and the time of day. Generally, unless it’s downtown on a weekday afternoon, 5-10 minutes is negligible. The fact that Car2Go allows you to reserve the car for yourself up to 30 minutes, at no charge, even if you change your mind and don’t actually make a trip, seems to indicate to me that Car2Go believes that even 30 minutes doesn’t have that big of an effect on vehicle availability.
If the time the car is reserved for you, before you tap in, isn’t charged, within a reasonable limit, time spent waiting for the system to contact the server when you tap in, entering your pin, loading your luggage, figuring out how to open and close the trunk, calling tech support because you can’t end your trip, etc. should not be charged either.
Perhaps one option would be to say that each trip includes a grace period of up to 30 minutes, with the key out of the ignition, which would not be charged. The 30 minute grace period would include reservation time before you tap in, time between when you tap in start the engine, and time between when you stop the engine and tap out. If necessary, a $1.00 “meter drop” could be added to make the change revenue-neutral.
(BTW: Car2go’s recent policy of prohibiting abuse of the reservation system by reserving the same car several times consecutively was a no-brainer. This makes a much bigger difference in vehicle availability than providing incentives for people to rush loading or unloading the car, or drive aggressively, to save 1-2 minutes).
I had the same thing happen to me recently, while driving to SoDo station in order to Link to the airport. It only took me 3 or 4 minutes to fix the problem, but I missed a train in the interim, so really it cost me 10+ minutes.
If this ever happens to you, just remember this easy mnemonic: SLAM THE WINDOW.
Also, I’ve rarely left a car near my central Ballard apartment that wasn’t either reserved or gone within five minutes.
OK, so there is no turning back…Link-only is the future of the DSTT. There are a few more questions I have though:
1. Has Metro/ST decided what to do with CPS?
2. The sign above the USS elevators at Benaroya Hall still refer to the DSTT as “the Metro Tunnel.” Since the term “Metro Tunnel” will become obsolete and outdated, shouldn’t that sign be replaced before the DSTT becomes Link-Only?
3. What about all the redundant bus-related infrastructure? Leaving it in place never to be used again seems like adding insult to injury.
1, No, but have tossed around using it for bus layovers as curb space in SLU/Belltown get harder and harder to hang onto as those areas develop. Also TOD has been mentioned, but that’s a bigger hurdle, given the site.
2. Being a history fan, I’m all for keeping a little of our past intact.
3. Could you be more specific?
The “redundant bus-related infrastructure” I am speaking of include the bus signaling systems, the sensors that automatically shift the buses into and out of “hush” mode as they enter the tunnel, all the road signage that caters strictly to buses, any components that were installed solely for operation of buses through the tunnel that is simply not needed when the DSTT becomes Link-only should be removed because it serves no real functional purpose in a Link-only environment.
And while they’re at it, they can remove the remaining Breda wire from CPS.
The buses don’t automatically switch into Hush Mode. Going into Hush Mode is controlled by the operator by pushing a button on the dashboard. The coach exits Hush Mode after the bus has traveled the distance of the DSTT as detected by the odometer. The sensors you refer to only detect the coaches’ number.
One burning question I’ve had: Why is there track in the road at Convention Place? Was Link originally supposed to use it, too?
The track that was originally put in the tunnel was just for show.
I believe the tracks at CPS are from the original light rail tracks, that we now know are useless.
I have heard that they are at convention place because it was planned to go into the I-5 express lanes, pre-Link planning
That’s correct. The tracks were fine, but they didn’t properly ground them from stray currents, which would have shortened their lifetime. Kaiser Engineering did the detailed study how Link would use the portions of the express lanes to get to the U district. That all changed after Mayor Rice and some others decided rail MUST go to Capital Hill.
So much for history.
I recall being at one of the early JRPC meetings when it was disclosed and a ranking council member stammered, “You mean we built the station in the wrong place?”
There was never any solid plan to put light rail on the express lanes, just a few preliminary proposals. These met with immediate opposition because Boadway & John and University Way & 45th were must-serve for any effective subway. The rails were laid as a token gesture to the future, because they had no idea whether a subway would ever be built or what route it would take. They obviously didn’t think clearly about the possible routing from Convention Place to Broadway because it turned out the angle was wrong, so the station was abandoned in Link. The station never had filled its original goals anyway, because convention-goers didn’t use it in droves, and Capitol Hillites were frustrated by the two-block walk to the Pike Street bus stop.
Mike is exactly right, it was a token gesture. I watched them lay the track when the Westake mezzanine was open before they started running buses, and there they were just pouring the concrete around the rails.
I don’t know if you went on one of the tours Mike, but the person leading ours had worked on D.C.’s Metro, so they understood all the issues involved.
When the time came to get the project done on time and under budget, he was probably the only person to have an accurate read on Seattle transportation politics, and save lots of money by doing it that way.
I once went to a show at the Paramount Theater on a weeknight. When it finished (~10:00 PM), I went down to Convention Place Station (right across the street) to catch my bus home. I guess everyone else drove, as I was only one of about 3 people there.
Has anyone ever gone back into the archives and read the very first STB post by Andrew Smith? It’s basically him saying this area isn’t a good place to bike, take transit, or drive, and this blog is going to chronicle this region’s progress in developing a proper transit system. But sometimes I wonder if the bloggers here really want this to be a good area to drive. Maybe it benefits rail and transit fans for traffic to be bad. Is that true? I’m sincerely asking. Do they encourage the implementation of plans to make traffic worse under the guise of making it safer (road diets, bus bulbs, speed reduction videos)? I suppose the worse traffic gets, the more people will vote for trains and streetcars?
You are the traffic. The only way traffic gets better is if other people don’t drive. Making it easier for other people to not drive is the only way to make it better for the remaining drivers.
Sam, you might go online and look up “Grant Jones” and “Paris Pike.” Latter a highway in Kentucky, former the architect who designed it. It’s possible to make roads themselves either better or worse places to drive, just as it’s possible to make houses better or worse to live in. Highway system designed for intercontinental military transport and street system designed by realtors gives second result.
I love driving where driving is lovable. Cross-country, two-lane blacktop wherever possible. But I consider it a confiscatory tax to be forced to drive my car, which I also love, where the driving is hard on both the car and me. Specifically, anyplace suburban. My ride to school via Metro Routes 40, 255, and 238 is a pleasure. I arrive calm and relaxed- opposite of when I have to drive.
Scenery itself is worth living in the Seattle area- hence plans for savage political campaign to get “wraps” off bus windows. Considering what tourists pay to come see this region, and especially considering how much a “view” raises property values, I’m getting robbed by having to look out the inside of somebody’s ad. Suggest King County wrap it’s office building from sidewalk to roof, and particularly the windows.
But look at regional mode choice it this way: whatever Kemper Freeman’s expressed views on driving rights and transit, he’s never allowed any car traffic or storefront parking inside Bellevue Square.
Mark Dublin
Sheesh, I thought I was the only one who despised the bus wraps! I don’t mind the bus being (nearly) covered in advertising, but just leave the windows clear so we can look outside–especially if the bus is packed, it’s nice to have the light coming in. Put more advertising inside the bus, more advertising at the bigger bus stops like in most other cities, but leave the windows clear!
No.
Traffic will get worse, period. No matter how big or small the we make the roads, traffic in an active, growing city will ALWAYS be congested. Downtown Bellevue went all-in on car capacity at the expense of every other mode when they designed their streets, and where did it get them? LOS F, that’s where.
The comparison between making roads safer and making traffic better is a false dichotomy. As WSDOT reps are fond of mentioning, the most serious cause of traffic delays is collisions, and their ensuing traffic snarls. If you can prevent one rush-hour blocking incident a week, you’ve done more to improve traffic than adding an expensive new lane. That’s why WSDOT cuts the I-5 speed limit to 35 at rush hour – because, counterintuitively, it keeps traffic moving.
So do we encourage plans to make traffic “worse”? No. We encourage plans that recognize the inevitability of congestion, and that focus on keeping the road system safe and functional for high-capacity (transit) & low impact modes under congested conditions, rather than futilely trying to pave our way out of congestion.
Lack Thereof, could choosing to live within walking or biking distance to work also help to reduce traffic congestion? Wouldn’t you agree that people who choose to live miles away from work are a big part of the problem? This is why I admire Kemper Freeman. I believe he is setting an example to us all. I, too, and leading the way by example. I have chosen to live within walking distance of work. Multi-billion dollar freeways and rail lines do not have to be built for me. I am the solution. High-capacity transit isn’t an answer to the underlying problem. It solves nothing. It merely enables the problem. People like Kemper and I, we are the true heroes. We are lighting the way. We walk the talk. We are saving earth. Commuters are destroying the earth. Lack, I’m curious, how far is your commute? Mine is 1420 meters. Mr. Freeman’s commute is one block. Your turn.
Sam,
How far does your wife commute?
Best urban bike paths in America. Burke-Gilman (a former rail line) is ranked number 3.
Another burning question I’ve had: Given that Community Transit doesn’t run on Sundays, which agency operates ST 512’s Sunday service between Everett and Seattle? And how does it work? If CT is running it, does the driver (or handful of drivers) get basically no support from his or her agency (I’ve heard Metro drivers given all sorts of useful info over the radio about wrecks, reroutes, etc)? Must suck to need a break if there are only a few drivers out on that route. If it’s KCM, do they use KCM-owned ST-branded equipment and take the fare revenue from Sundays?
I think First Transit operates the 512 on Sundays, out of a separate base, which is not used by Community Transit. This allows the Community Transit bases to be completely closed, saving money.
(BTW: for a combined population of close to 200,000 people in Montlake Terrace, Edmonds, Lynnwood, and Everett to have zero Sunday service except for the 512 is downright pathetic).
Admittedly, Everett Transit does run on Sundays. But I still agree that it’s pathetic.
There are actually two other forms of transit I forgot about. The waterfront can be reached by Amtrak Cascades twice a day from either Seattle or Everett. There are also a few sections of Edmonds which are within walking distance of the 358’s terminal at Aurora Village.
We know where Mike McGinn stands on projects designed to get cars to obey the speed limit in high pedestrian traffic areas. Does anyone know whether Ed Murray will stand behind these projects?
I have an honest and sincere question. I often hear people say, “If only more people used public transportation, and drove less, this area would be a much better place to live!” That made me curious. Which US city has the highest percentage of public transportation use? Whichever city it is, it has to be some sort of Shangri-La, right? But I must have made a mistake in my research. The number one city is Hoboken, NJ. So now I’m confused. Is our goal in this region to become more like Hoboken?
http://tinyurl.com/n5kposb
Have you been to Hoboken? Hoboken is so nice that it’s not cool anymore. It’s basically like Fremont, and it’s only a 15 minute train ride to Manhattan. The worst thing about Hoboken is all the tourists that come for the Cake Boss.
Hoboken is a suburb of New York. It has a high percentage of commuters because so many workers are heading to Manhattan. The list in Forbes is dominated by suburbs of New York and Washington D.C.
If you look at the Census data, which is quite interesting and well worth a read, the metropolitan areas with the greatest transit usage are New York, San Francisco, D.C., Boston, Chicago, Philadelphia, Seattle, Baltimore, Los Angeles, Portland. I think Boston in particular is a good model for Seattle.
Working up the list from the bottom I see Dallas, Detroit, Orlando, Phoenix, Houston, Miami. It would be interesting to see the data cross indexed with metropolitan area size.
http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/acs-15.pdf
That’s right. We’ve come here to build New Hoboken, and be careful what you say about it or you’ll be goin’ for a swim in the Hudson.
Hoboken is for people too poor to live in NYC.
They mainly ride PATH trains to their low paying jobs in Mahattan and then come back to live in crummy old row houses.
If that’s your idea of paradise, it’s ready and waiting for you on the East Coast.
John,
I fear you are living in the past. That may have been true when you were growing up in Queens, but it is no longer. The place has radically gentrified.
Hoboken’s National Night Out Against Crime draws hundreds to Church Square Park
http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2013/08/family_fun_with_a_serious_message_promised_at_hobokens_national_night_out_against_crime.html
For the mainstream population, transit in Hoboken, NJ exists for one purpose and one purpose only – to get to New York. For all other trips, nearly everyone drives.
It does not surprise me that there are enough commuters to NYC to drive up the transit modeshare (at least for work commute trips) to among the highest in the nation, but transit only for work and driving for everything else is very different than life within Manhattan, where transit is the mainstream way to get around for all trips at all times of day.
As mentioned I grew up in Queens, NYC where “everyone” uses transit.
My dad was a CPA who worked in Manhattan. He would take a bus to a subway, like the Q10 to the E/F train. At some point he wanted to “get healthy” so he walked the 1.1 miles to the Aqueduct A line station. Then as he got older, he took the $5 express bus that stopped about 5 blocks away.
For the first 10 years of my existence, my Mom didn’t drive. So we walked everywhere…she, my two sisters, my brother and I. I remember tedious trips to the supermarket going there with a baby carriage and coming back with a supermarket cart (they didn’t really care back then, as eventually people would bring them back).
However, we always had a car, and every recreational trip when he was around was done by car. Families in our neighborhood where the Mom drove…always drove!
Hoboken is .8 miles wide by (not quite) 1.5 miles long, and is entirely ringed by topographical barriers. The vast majority of local errands are completed on foot.
Meanwhile, John hasn’t been to Hoboken in decades. It is 150% gentrified.
One should also note that previously underutilized and non-residential areas of Hoboken have been filled with new construction that is highly dense, is not particularly tall, has excellent frontage with few setbacks, and is not the least bit ugly.
So yeah, it can be done.
@dp
So what are you waiting for?
Streetviews of Hoboken:
http://goo.gl/maps/Kpk94
http://goo.gl/maps/wEcxy
PATH also goes to Jersey City and Newark. These cities may not have the unique record-breaking ridership and density of Hoboken but they’re up there. PATH is fuller than the subways even at 10pm, and consists of a wide range of people, mostly lower middle class or working class, like our 120 and 131/132 but with more white-collar types. It is mostly used for going to Manhattan because I gather there’s not a lot of travel demand between Newark, Journal Square, Hoboken, and Pavonia. It can only go between these neighborhoods, not any other crosstown trips. But given that it’s pretty full doing just that, it has an important niche.
One interesting thing about PATH is that there are all-day feeder buses to it, both free ones run by the port authority and fare-charging ones run by the transit agency, both overlapping at the same bus stops in some cases. So you can get to PATH even if you don’t live near a station. I wondered why anyone would take the paid buses when the free bus comes every hour or so, but of course when you want to travel, you want to travel and damn the fare. I ended up taking the paid bus sometimes. :)
One must note that cities in New Jersey are an aberration, a novelty, not the norm.
New Jersey (and Connecticut) as states are very dense, but as a network of towns and suburbs served by a network or highways. There are also large parkland and rural areas, but the core of Central Jersey are towns like New Brunswick and around Princeton and the housing developments, office parks and shopping malls that pervade those areas.
New Jersey has also kept some small towns in their middle 20th century state, with shops and walkways, as well as super modern car oriented commercial plazas. There are also many farms and local produce.
It shows how a state can be modern and prosperous and yet not suffer the imbalances of having one really large city, and an virtually empty state. I think that is a better design for Washington State than cramming everyone into the solitary towers of one city.
China trying to cap number of vehicles to ease congestion. I love this quote from the article… “Policy makers know they cannot kill the demand for cars,” said Lin Huaibin, a Shanghai-based analyst at auto researcher IHS Automotive. “If people really want to buy a vehicle, these policies won’t stand in their way.” And this one… “We can’t do business without a car in such a huge city,” Beijing-based fruit importer Jason Chi said, explaining that after two years of failing at the lottery he registered his Buick Excelle for 100 yuan ($16) about an hour’s drive away in Langfang, Hebei province. Applying twice a year for permission – – with restrictions — to drive in Beijing is a worthwhile hassle, he said. “What other choice do I have?”
http://tinyurl.com/kfz76x6
Car ownership is simply a measure of broad based economic growth.
Car sales plummeted in Europe, but are growing in Russia and China.
Russia will be Europe’s largest car market by 2016
http://rt.com/business/russia-car-germany-2016-306/
Fine educational video! Speed matters, and always will matter, even after cars (and trucks and buses) with automatic braking (triggered by sensors and vehicle-to-vehicle communications that detect a reason to slow or stop) reach deployment.
Last week, I had my first bad experience with Car2Go. I was traveling just under 3 miles with a lot of luggage. After a few failed attempts to get the trunk opened, I finally got my suitcase into the trunk by tossing it over the passenger seat. Then, after I reached my destination, I spent a good 5-10 minutes trying to figure out why I couldn’t take the key out of the ignition. Eventually, I realized that the car was still in drive and switching it to park fixed that problem, but I was still unable to end the trip because it kept saying the trunk wasn’t closed. Apparently, my failed attempts to get the trunk open had accidentally left some piece of it ajar. Another 5-10 minutes of frantically trying every trunk-related switch I could find, the trunk was closed and I was on my way. But, in the process, I more than doubled the cost of the trip, as every minute I spent fiddling with the ignition key or the trunk was on the clock.
This got me thinking – for a short jaunt across town, does pay-by-the-minute really make sense? Would it have been better if they simply charged a per-mile rate for trips under an hour, with time-based charges only on trips over an hour? After all, the marginal decrease in vehicle availability caused by a trip taking 20 minutes instead of 10 is negligible, so the only real reason why a 20-minute trip should cost $10, while a 10-minute trip costs $5 is the extra gas+wear+tear resulting from the longer trip. (For longer trips, this logic no longer holds, so time-based charges still make sense). I would also argue that creating incentives for people to rush in loading and unloading their stuff, speed, drive aggressively, run yellow lights, etc. creates unnecessary stress.
Even though in my case, I felt I was not justified to call and complain, due to the fact that the problems were 100% pilot error, a business model that relies on punishing customers for silly mistakes to make money seems problematic. Car2Go is still a great service and I will still continue to use it, but next time I need to carry more luggage than can fit on the passenger seat, I will likely try Lyft or Sidecar instead.
From the standpoint of the person who wants your car instead of you, those ten minutes are ten minutes. Whether you’re stuck in traffic, futzing with the trunk or having car sex during those ten minutes is totally irrelevant to that person.
The length that a car is typically idle between uses, is typically on the order of a few hours, although it can vary wildly, depending on the location and the time of day. Generally, unless it’s downtown on a weekday afternoon, 5-10 minutes is negligible. The fact that Car2Go allows you to reserve the car for yourself up to 30 minutes, at no charge, even if you change your mind and don’t actually make a trip, seems to indicate to me that Car2Go believes that even 30 minutes doesn’t have that big of an effect on vehicle availability.
If the time the car is reserved for you, before you tap in, isn’t charged, within a reasonable limit, time spent waiting for the system to contact the server when you tap in, entering your pin, loading your luggage, figuring out how to open and close the trunk, calling tech support because you can’t end your trip, etc. should not be charged either.
Perhaps one option would be to say that each trip includes a grace period of up to 30 minutes, with the key out of the ignition, which would not be charged. The 30 minute grace period would include reservation time before you tap in, time between when you tap in start the engine, and time between when you stop the engine and tap out. If necessary, a $1.00 “meter drop” could be added to make the change revenue-neutral.
(BTW: Car2go’s recent policy of prohibiting abuse of the reservation system by reserving the same car several times consecutively was a no-brainer. This makes a much bigger difference in vehicle availability than providing incentives for people to rush loading or unloading the car, or drive aggressively, to save 1-2 minutes).
I had the same thing happen to me recently, while driving to SoDo station in order to Link to the airport. It only took me 3 or 4 minutes to fix the problem, but I missed a train in the interim, so really it cost me 10+ minutes.
If this ever happens to you, just remember this easy mnemonic: SLAM THE WINDOW.
Also, I’ve rarely left a car near my central Ballard apartment that wasn’t either reserved or gone within five minutes.
OK, so there is no turning back…Link-only is the future of the DSTT. There are a few more questions I have though:
1. Has Metro/ST decided what to do with CPS?
2. The sign above the USS elevators at Benaroya Hall still refer to the DSTT as “the Metro Tunnel.” Since the term “Metro Tunnel” will become obsolete and outdated, shouldn’t that sign be replaced before the DSTT becomes Link-Only?
3. What about all the redundant bus-related infrastructure? Leaving it in place never to be used again seems like adding insult to injury.
1, No, but have tossed around using it for bus layovers as curb space in SLU/Belltown get harder and harder to hang onto as those areas develop. Also TOD has been mentioned, but that’s a bigger hurdle, given the site.
2. Being a history fan, I’m all for keeping a little of our past intact.
3. Could you be more specific?
The “redundant bus-related infrastructure” I am speaking of include the bus signaling systems, the sensors that automatically shift the buses into and out of “hush” mode as they enter the tunnel, all the road signage that caters strictly to buses, any components that were installed solely for operation of buses through the tunnel that is simply not needed when the DSTT becomes Link-only should be removed because it serves no real functional purpose in a Link-only environment.
And while they’re at it, they can remove the remaining Breda wire from CPS.
The buses don’t automatically switch into Hush Mode. Going into Hush Mode is controlled by the operator by pushing a button on the dashboard. The coach exits Hush Mode after the bus has traveled the distance of the DSTT as detected by the odometer. The sensors you refer to only detect the coaches’ number.
One burning question I’ve had: Why is there track in the road at Convention Place? Was Link originally supposed to use it, too?
The track that was originally put in the tunnel was just for show.
I believe the tracks at CPS are from the original light rail tracks, that we now know are useless.
I have heard that they are at convention place because it was planned to go into the I-5 express lanes, pre-Link planning
That’s correct. The tracks were fine, but they didn’t properly ground them from stray currents, which would have shortened their lifetime. Kaiser Engineering did the detailed study how Link would use the portions of the express lanes to get to the U district. That all changed after Mayor Rice and some others decided rail MUST go to Capital Hill.
So much for history.
I recall being at one of the early JRPC meetings when it was disclosed and a ranking council member stammered, “You mean we built the station in the wrong place?”
There was never any solid plan to put light rail on the express lanes, just a few preliminary proposals. These met with immediate opposition because Boadway & John and University Way & 45th were must-serve for any effective subway. The rails were laid as a token gesture to the future, because they had no idea whether a subway would ever be built or what route it would take. They obviously didn’t think clearly about the possible routing from Convention Place to Broadway because it turned out the angle was wrong, so the station was abandoned in Link. The station never had filled its original goals anyway, because convention-goers didn’t use it in droves, and Capitol Hillites were frustrated by the two-block walk to the Pike Street bus stop.
Mike is exactly right, it was a token gesture. I watched them lay the track when the Westake mezzanine was open before they started running buses, and there they were just pouring the concrete around the rails.
I don’t know if you went on one of the tours Mike, but the person leading ours had worked on D.C.’s Metro, so they understood all the issues involved.
When the time came to get the project done on time and under budget, he was probably the only person to have an accurate read on Seattle transportation politics, and save lots of money by doing it that way.
I once went to a show at the Paramount Theater on a weeknight. When it finished (~10:00 PM), I went down to Convention Place Station (right across the street) to catch my bus home. I guess everyone else drove, as I was only one of about 3 people there.
Has anyone ever gone back into the archives and read the very first STB post by Andrew Smith? It’s basically him saying this area isn’t a good place to bike, take transit, or drive, and this blog is going to chronicle this region’s progress in developing a proper transit system. But sometimes I wonder if the bloggers here really want this to be a good area to drive. Maybe it benefits rail and transit fans for traffic to be bad. Is that true? I’m sincerely asking. Do they encourage the implementation of plans to make traffic worse under the guise of making it safer (road diets, bus bulbs, speed reduction videos)? I suppose the worse traffic gets, the more people will vote for trains and streetcars?
You are the traffic. The only way traffic gets better is if other people don’t drive. Making it easier for other people to not drive is the only way to make it better for the remaining drivers.
Sam, you might go online and look up “Grant Jones” and “Paris Pike.” Latter a highway in Kentucky, former the architect who designed it. It’s possible to make roads themselves either better or worse places to drive, just as it’s possible to make houses better or worse to live in. Highway system designed for intercontinental military transport and street system designed by realtors gives second result.
I love driving where driving is lovable. Cross-country, two-lane blacktop wherever possible. But I consider it a confiscatory tax to be forced to drive my car, which I also love, where the driving is hard on both the car and me. Specifically, anyplace suburban. My ride to school via Metro Routes 40, 255, and 238 is a pleasure. I arrive calm and relaxed- opposite of when I have to drive.
Scenery itself is worth living in the Seattle area- hence plans for savage political campaign to get “wraps” off bus windows. Considering what tourists pay to come see this region, and especially considering how much a “view” raises property values, I’m getting robbed by having to look out the inside of somebody’s ad. Suggest King County wrap it’s office building from sidewalk to roof, and particularly the windows.
But look at regional mode choice it this way: whatever Kemper Freeman’s expressed views on driving rights and transit, he’s never allowed any car traffic or storefront parking inside Bellevue Square.
Mark Dublin
Sheesh, I thought I was the only one who despised the bus wraps! I don’t mind the bus being (nearly) covered in advertising, but just leave the windows clear so we can look outside–especially if the bus is packed, it’s nice to have the light coming in. Put more advertising inside the bus, more advertising at the bigger bus stops like in most other cities, but leave the windows clear!
No.
Traffic will get worse, period. No matter how big or small the we make the roads, traffic in an active, growing city will ALWAYS be congested. Downtown Bellevue went all-in on car capacity at the expense of every other mode when they designed their streets, and where did it get them? LOS F, that’s where.
The comparison between making roads safer and making traffic better is a false dichotomy. As WSDOT reps are fond of mentioning, the most serious cause of traffic delays is collisions, and their ensuing traffic snarls. If you can prevent one rush-hour blocking incident a week, you’ve done more to improve traffic than adding an expensive new lane. That’s why WSDOT cuts the I-5 speed limit to 35 at rush hour – because, counterintuitively, it keeps traffic moving.
So do we encourage plans to make traffic “worse”? No. We encourage plans that recognize the inevitability of congestion, and that focus on keeping the road system safe and functional for high-capacity (transit) & low impact modes under congested conditions, rather than futilely trying to pave our way out of congestion.
Lack Thereof, could choosing to live within walking or biking distance to work also help to reduce traffic congestion? Wouldn’t you agree that people who choose to live miles away from work are a big part of the problem? This is why I admire Kemper Freeman. I believe he is setting an example to us all. I, too, and leading the way by example. I have chosen to live within walking distance of work. Multi-billion dollar freeways and rail lines do not have to be built for me. I am the solution. High-capacity transit isn’t an answer to the underlying problem. It solves nothing. It merely enables the problem. People like Kemper and I, we are the true heroes. We are lighting the way. We walk the talk. We are saving earth. Commuters are destroying the earth. Lack, I’m curious, how far is your commute? Mine is 1420 meters. Mr. Freeman’s commute is one block. Your turn.
Sam,
How far does your wife commute?
Best urban bike paths in America. Burke-Gilman (a former rail line) is ranked number 3.
http://tinyurl.com/kjn2of9
That says a lot about the sorry state of cycling infrastructure in the US.
Another burning question I’ve had: Given that Community Transit doesn’t run on Sundays, which agency operates ST 512’s Sunday service between Everett and Seattle? And how does it work? If CT is running it, does the driver (or handful of drivers) get basically no support from his or her agency (I’ve heard Metro drivers given all sorts of useful info over the radio about wrecks, reroutes, etc)? Must suck to need a break if there are only a few drivers out on that route. If it’s KCM, do they use KCM-owned ST-branded equipment and take the fare revenue from Sundays?
I think First Transit operates the 512 on Sundays, out of a separate base, which is not used by Community Transit. This allows the Community Transit bases to be completely closed, saving money.
(BTW: for a combined population of close to 200,000 people in Montlake Terrace, Edmonds, Lynnwood, and Everett to have zero Sunday service except for the 512 is downright pathetic).
Admittedly, Everett Transit does run on Sundays. But I still agree that it’s pathetic.
There are actually two other forms of transit I forgot about. The waterfront can be reached by Amtrak Cascades twice a day from either Seattle or Everett. There are also a few sections of Edmonds which are within walking distance of the 358’s terminal at Aurora Village.
Bus driver shot downtown on the 120 today.
http://blogs.seattletimes.com/today/2013/08/metro-bus-driver-shot-in-downtown-seattle/
So the lesson of the video is…
Pay attention to what is happening in front of you !!!
Not to the guy next to you.
For the faster driver to hit the back of a semi means he wasn’t paying any attention to the road ahead of him.