Thanks to Sam for referring this video to us.
The STB staff are collecting their thoughts on the opening, working on other articles, dealing with illness, and preparing for the bus restructures September 14th. So there may not be another article for a couple days.
How is Link ridership this weekend?
This is an open thread.
I was heading southbound early afternoon Friday, getting off ST 512 and hopping on link at Lynnwood. For the first segment of the trip, I could see the same bus I got off from going faster than the rail and lost sight of it by the time rail reached Mountlake Terrace. Then traffic on the highway build up started near Northgate before Northgate exit. That was when I saw the bus again, at the exit.
So in the end, the light rail reached Northgate station quicker. Not needing to navigate around the city streets made up the speed.
I also found some segments of the travel, especially before or near Mountlake Terrace where trail speeds slowed way down. On the way back up North, the train stopped to let the train from the other direction pass through first.
Also on the way back north, the station announcement screen was only updated every 4-6 stations. I don’t know if the operator wasn’t updating it or if it’s an automated system that wasn’t working as it should. This was happening in the downtown stations as well as further north. There were clearly some new riders that were confused by it.
As for the “Night Market”, they should either have extended it to be more than just the 4 hours or have it available for several days. The event ended at 8pm and at 9:30, there were still some vendors and stages that were being taken down. For all the time it took to setup and take down, having the event be only 4 hours in one single day was too short.
There’s so much space at each of the stations that it would be nice to hold regular events.
It seems to me that there’s not much within walking distance at each of the stations, aside from the giant parking garages and bus transfers. At least at the Lynnwood station, you can practically transfer for free to a Zip Shuttle with an Orca card.
I just wish the Community Transit busses aren’t all so limited to single direction peak hours. It’s also too bad the gold and silver BRT lines won’t be available anytime sooner.
I’m most happy that they announced their promotional $6 day pass all the way until next year. No reason not to get it if you’re going to use 2+ trips.
I’ve also noticed some of the stops at the transit centers will be adding Community Transit 900 series express lines. Many of those are weekdays only, but those seem to have a more direct path to Lynnwood Station. The ST 512, for example would make a stop between South Everett Transit Center, at Ash Way P&R first. But the CT 903, 904 and 905 wouldn’t have any stops in between.
I really think there needs to be much better frequency for buses to reach the Eastside.
Took the link on Friday and there’s two stations between Northgate and 145th still under
still under construction Wonder if and when the other two stations will open
There is only one future station between Northgate and 145th: The 130th Station. It is scheduled to open in a couple years: https://www.soundtransit.org/system-expansion/ne-130th-st-infill-station
The 901 is an express overlay. It is a limited stop version of the 109. It only runs during peak since that is the only time they can justify an express and regular version of the same bus. In the middle of the day it makes more sense to just focus on improving frequency. Some of the other buses:
903 — Direct bus from Lake Stevens to Lynnwood.
904 — Express version of the 201/202 but with a little different (and unique) coverage in Marysville.
905/907/908 — Different type of buses since they offer unique coverage areas.
909 — Not really an express. More of just a regular bus with weird hours (timed with the ferry).
The 903, 904 and 905 and all skip Downtown Everett bus stop at South Everett Station. This gives those riders a connection to the 532 (to Bellevue) as well as the (local) Everett Transit 29. I could see this becoming an even bigger hub in the future (if Everett Transit merges with CT).
Thanks for featuring my video. Feel free to use other videos from my channel showing the new Link extension. There is a southbound timelapse up now and a video on each station stop. The opening day festivals at each station stop was a neat idea and those really brought out the crowds. So many were doing the collect each station stamp event that they ran out of the prize hats.
Spoiler Alerts:
Metro will be adding a new Metro Flex service for the “Northshare” area that will include Mountlake Terrace (train) Station, starting with the September 14 service change.
With the recent addition of the Delridge/South-Park Metro Flex, these public on-demand limited-area services seem to be the big winners in recent transit investment.
Also, two of the six new CT Express routes will be all day. The 909 will run between Edmonds Ferry Dock and Mountlake Terrace (train) Station, timed to the ferry schedule, seven days a week. The 905 will run hourly on weekdays between Stanwood, Marysville, South Everett, and Lynnwood Station.
The hidden gem of CT’s restructure is the express-like CT 117, which will run half-hourly on weekdays and hourly on weekends and evenings, between Mukilteo Ferry Dock, Alderwood Mall, and Lynnwood Station.
It is a head-scratcher that CT will deadhead buses out of service, instead of running 2-way service, on the other four new express routes. Same for ST Express 513. Is Seaway Transit Center an actual job center / destination, or just a glorified park & ride?
The hidden gem of CT’s restructure is the express-like CT 117, which will run half-hourly on weekdays and hourly on weekends and evenings, between Mukilteo Ferry Dock, Alderwood Mall, and Lynnwood Station.
I agree. This is a huge change for anyone that goes from Whidbey Island to Seattle. I expect to see a significant increase in the number of people who walk on to the ferry.
It is a head-scratcher that CT will deadhead buses out of service, instead of running 2-way service, on the other four new express routes. Same for ST Express 513.
My guess is they planned on running the 513 bidirectionally (but peak-period only) but then shifted the service to the 515. Right now the 513 makes no sense. Somehow the area is worthy of a billion dollar investment in light rail, but not worthy of bidirectional service. Either Boeing is a destination (from the south) or it isn’t.
I don’t feel the same way about the CT Express buses. They are mostly just express overlays of regular routes. The only time you can justify skipping so many stops is when the main route is more or less full, and running frequently. This is only the case peak direction. These serve fairly distant, fairly residential areas.
Dead-heading gets complicated. If the bus is just going back to the starting point it makes sense to allow riders. If nothing else allow people to ride end to end. For example ride from Bellevue to Snohomish on the 908 in the morning. That way at worst you can then take a bus to Monroe from there. But it usually isn’t so simple. The buses often go somewhere else entirely (like the bus base).
CT’s deadheading is something I find very frustrating. You can be at Mukilteo and have three “Out of Service” buses come in, loop around by the ferry, then go back up the hill to wherever they go, while the only bi-directional service is the hourly clumsy 113.
The 117 should be a huge improvement.
Correction: Seaway Transit Center is just a glorified transfer station. There is no parking nearby. In many years of walking that area, I’ve never seen a soul on the 513 from Seaway to Evergreen in the a.m., or in the opposite direction in the p.m. Miraculously, in 13 years (at present estimates), Seaway TC will suddenly be worthy of (i.e., have the density for) light rail service going to there in the morning, yet that area continues to lack two-way ST bus service, typically a precursor to rail service, and only has a single in-city stop at Evergreen Way going to Seattle, bypassing many other possible stops in a low-income, multi-family area, unlike in wealthy Bellevue, where stops are plentiful and service is bi-directional and all day. The only other peak-only, weekday-only 513 stop in Everett is at Eastmont Park & Ride, where no other transit service serves, bypassing the popular South Everett Park & Ride that’s loaded with transit connections. Meanwhile, the residents of this area have continued to shell out taxes to Sound Transit for the past 26 years, and continue to get the short end of the stick, a good reason for ST’s flat $3 fares. Even when Everett Link comes along, it won’t even stop at the Seattle/Paine Field’s terminal, where only an infrequent, meandering Everett Transit bus goes today for a terminal that is not in city limits! So-called regional transit provider CT stops 1/2 mile away, down a wind-and-weather-swept hill and a narrow sidewalk, only viable for an able-bodied, traveler in good shape.
When the 513 becomes bidirectional it should go by the various Boeing plants, in the same way that the 510 zig-zags at the northern end of its route. This would give a lot of people a one-seat ride to their job. The tail of buses can do this without hurting riders since no one is through-routing.
@Brent… I can concur with “transitrider”. I used to work in the area. Despite being a massive employment center (Boeing and its contractors), there’s no retail or residential presence in the immediate vacinity. It’s purely cars, solo drivers and a handful of vanpools. Seaway TC itself has zero parking – not even a spot for a drop-off/pick-up. Think “Mt Baker TC” but in a industrial metropolis with no retail. THAT’s Seaway. Boeing eliminated CT’s routes going onto plant property. So a centralized transit hub was created where workers would ride into Seaway and transfer to a Boeing shuttle. The result 3 years later? It’s a complete dud.
But it shouldn’t be a suprise. CT always failed at serving Boeing for years. 10,000’s of workers flocking to a central area and the best CT could muster were a handufl of routes that ran a couple times in each direction….what a joke and an utter failure.
Note that the LL Route 331 and Metro Flex seem to compete with one another; since March 2023, the backroom computing supposedly stops intending riders from getting a Flex ride if the fixed route trip is faster.
How much sense does the segment of Route 331 between AVTC and MT Link make? It draw area seems quite limited. Transit has decades of data on its usage.
Agreed — I actually have time to go to Lynnwood today on Link, but I don’t know what I’d do there, and a ‘night market’ (it doesn’t have to be at night; the days aren’t that hot here) would be a nice destination. No one’s published a ‘best things to eat on the new Link extension’ that I could find.
Just Left Grill. It’s about a 10 min walk to the north.
I met a friend there once and they had a reasonably OK French Dip.
Sort of a dive though.
Yeah it would have been great if something like Pike Place Market was eventually under the tracks at Lynnwood. The viaduct already provides protection from the sun and elements underneath. Even a weekly farmers martlet or seasonal holiday market would be awesome!
Oh, I see, there’s really nothing near Shoreline South / North :-(
Lynnwood seems to have the mall nearby I suppose? We could go to the Olive Garden e.g.
I walked to the Indian buffet near LCC station on Friday and it was pretty good!
“Lynnwood seems to have the mall nearby I suppose?”
The mall is on the other side of I-5 so it’s a mile walk away. You can take Swift Orange one station, or the 201 or 202.
“I actually have time to go to Lynnwood today on Link, but I don’t know what I’d do there”
There’s lots of things to do near there, but I have no idea what things you’re into. Lots of places to eat. Goodwill. Some ethnic markets. Etc.
The 201/202 goes straight to Ash Way P&R via I-5. It does not serve Alderwood.
There are plenty of other routes between Lynnwood and Alderwood. Swift Orange goes express to the west side of the mall. The less-frequent ST Express 535 expresses to the east side of the mall.
The best sushi conveyor restaurant I’ve found is on the north side of the mall. Everything is labeled with its ingredients, “Vegan”, “Vegetarian”, “Gluten Free” when appropriate. But I love that it also has a fruit bowl.
There is an REI going out of business there. Someone in corporate at that fake co-op did not get the memo that business was about to get better.
It looks to me like you have to walk a ways, but there are plenty of independent restaurants within a mile of Lynnwood Station. I would probably walk on 44th then 196th. Not exactly pleasant walking, but you will find something. Then again, I might just choose something based on the phone and beeline it there.
With Mountlake Terrace there are a couple of clusters of restaurants at 56th & 236th and at roughly 232nd & 57th. Two brewpubs which are often good for food as well. From 185th you have to walk a ways to North City (roughly 180th & 15th). At least the walking is pleasant (you can avoid busy streets). I guess at 148th there is a food truck and a Chinese restaurant over on 15th and that’s about it.
I’m afraid that is one of the drawbacks of being so close to the freeway. In the middle of Pinehurst there is a Jewish Deli, a Thai restaurant, a pizza place, several Ethiopian restaurants, a Columbian restaurant and my favorite — a Mexican food truck. It is still second-rate compared to places like Northgate or Lake City — but it is not bad. But close to the future station — nothing really. It is about a ten minute walk to a small cluster of restaurants, but nothing as good as the main part of Pinehurst. It is possible that eventually the area around the station adds restaurants (as they add apartments) but this is one of the drawbacks about running so close to the freeway. There is nothing much there. These stations are all “means-to-an-end” in my opinion. Lots of riders will drive and park there. They improve the bus network. But as far as being destinations, my guess is that won’t happen for a while (if ever).
I rode north with my two sons (9yo, 1yo) at 8:30am Saturday from U District station. We just missed a train and had to wait 12min. Train wasn’t two crowded with maybe 12 people on our car. Smooth ride though we slowed nearly to a stop going through the future 130th station. My kids liked the segments where we were even with I-5 because it felt like we were racing the cars. I enjoyed the elevated views since I’ve driven that corridor from below so many times.
We got off at Mountlake Terrace to meet my cousin and his kid at Veteran’s Memorial Park. I was hoping to be able to access the park directly from the MLT transit center since it’s adjacent, but the two are unfortunately not connected (MLT website mentions a long-term desire to do so. Walking around the block to the playground took <10min though.
The train back at 9:45am was much fuller just from folks from Lynnwood. We got seats but barely. Standing room only by Shoreline South. Not crush loaded but 20-30 people standing in our car by when we got off. Based on outfits and lanyards, probably 2/3 of the car seemed to be headed to PAX.
Overall really nice trip. I wish the Rite Aid on the Ave hadn't closed so we could have knocked out an errand.
Super excited to try again. Our main use case will be visiting family in MLT. Hope to to to Ballinger Park next time.
We got off at Mountlake Terrace to meet my cousin and his kid at Veteran’s Memorial Park. I was hoping to be able to access the park directly from the MLT transit center since it’s adjacent, but the two are unfortunately not connected.
Yeah, Mike mentioned that. I don’t understand it. If you are headed to the library you have to walk all the way around (https://maps.app.goo.gl/h1TQqbhxSMpyr8Vv6). This seems like a really big failure on the part of Mountlake Terrace. They insisted the station serve this area (instead of various places on Aurora). They hope to turn the area into a “town center”. Fair enough. You’ve got the library, some other civic buildings — good start. The greenbelt means you can’t add anything right next to the station, but it also provides a buffer from the freeway noise. It makes the walk to the station a lot more pleasant (and yes, this matters). Except you can’t actually walk through the park?
It wouldn’t surprise me if there are unofficial ways through (although they could be sketchy). I’ve been on my share of these. Sometimes there is a faint, unmaintained trail. Other times it is overground with blackberries.
OK, I looked at this some more. The lack of access to the park may have to do with parking. From what I can tell you can access the park via 60th (https://maps.app.goo.gl/eWuzFhr6H3sVyAhi6). There is plenty of parallel parking nearby. This is a very short distance to the station, but you have to go around (at least according to Google): https://maps.app.goo.gl/7z8ACwS9KEJqdvVD7. If the main park and ride lot at Mountlake Terrace fills up, people look for other parking options. There isn’t much parking along along 236th or Van Ryd Boulevard (from what I can tell) which leaves 58th (and adjoining streets). They may already have 4-hour parking limits now (although I don’t see them on Google Maps). The city may be waiting to see what happens as far as parking. If the park and ride routinely fills up they may be reluctant to open up the park, as they would have to deal with people parking there. Then again maybe the parks department just hasn’t gotten around to building decent pathways. Seems like you would want to (before Link opened) for the sake of local businesses as well as future development.
A lot of this speculation. I wish my foot felt better as I would like to explore the area. The park looks pretty nice and some of the side streets look good — they have sidewalks and form an easy-to-manage grid. Diamond Knot makes good beer (they have a nearby brewpub there). It would make a good outing while answering some mysteries about access. Some day.
You used to be able to access the park directly from the transit center, and the plan is for that to be connected again in the next year or so: https://cityofmlt.com/1976/Transit-Connection-Corridor-Project
The trail used to be a bit narrow and slopy so people who aren’t so good on their feet would have had problems with it. The plan is to make this connection a bit more accessible for people who aren’t comfortable on dirt trails.
Thanks Dave. That makes sense.
Here’s a hyperlink to the eventual plan adopted in 2021:
https://cityofmlt.com/DocumentCenter/View/24030/Veterans-Memorial-Park-Preferred-Concept-FINAL-ILLUSTRATIVE?bidId=
There will be a main trail running diagonally from the station to the city hall campus.
You used to walk through the transit center to a park entrance on the northeast side; that’s what I did when I explored the station area in the 2010s.
On Friday I saw a gravel pit where the transit center was, and a one-lane road around the north and east sides with no sidewalk, so they’d probably yell at you if you walked on it. Even if you did walk to the northeast corner, there’s a wall between you and the park.
So it may be addressed when the transit center is redeveloped. But you’d still have to walk across that one-lane road. And I don’t know if they would or could take the wall down.
The gravel is an unusual tan color. A lot at Lynnwood Station has matching tan. I wonder if it’s an artistic statement. Or if ST just ordered the tan variety arbitrarily.
It’s still not that long to go around to the park. Go two blocks east on 236th to the next street (58th), and two blocks north to the park entrance. That may take ten minutes. So it’s still within walking distance to the park; you just can’t go through the park to the city center. The park is now a cul-de-sac. I’d have to visit the park again to tell whether it’s worth visiting as a destination.
“The plan is to make this connection a bit more accessible for people who aren’t comfortable on dirt trails.”
Beware of trails like that. That’s what ruined Meydenbauer Park. In the early 1980s in high school I used to go to that park at the edge of downtown Bellevue, and it was like being in a quiet forest oasis. It’s a narrow V-shaped ravine going down to the Lake Washington shore. The only sign of civilization was the bridge across the northern (upper) end.
When I went through it again in the early 2020s (or maybe it was a couple years before that), there’s now a wide concrete path at the bottom going through all the area I described. The park no longer feels natural, remote, or rural. It feels more like a skateboard park with some trees at the sides. (Although it’s not a skate park; it’s a bike/ped trail that looks like a concrete sidewalk.)
So it’s still within walking distance to the park; you just can’t go through the park to the city center. The park is now a cul-de-sac.
Yeah, exactly. I doubt this will ever be a destination park. It is too small and there is no major geographic feature (no water access). That’s fine. But from a transit standpoint the value in a park like this is that you can walk through it.
I had a similar experience joy-riding the new Link extension on Saturday, a couple hours after your trip: the car was nearly empty heading north, but the return trip was packed, standing-room only. Judging by the way people were dressed, I got the impression that there might be a convention or some other large event going on downtown.
The ride was pleasant. There was less to look at than I had hoped, given the prevalence and height of the retaining walls, but one can see that many of the little patches of dirt with scraggly potted plants will grow up into nice nature buffer strips, and presumably the construction debris and lots full of vehicles will eventually be developed into something else.
I can’t imagine I’ll ever use this extension of the line with any frequency – even Northgate is pretty far out of my usual range – but it was nice to see what’s been built up there, and I’m sure it will bring big changes for some of the people living out in those suburbs.
@Mars Saxman,
Yep. It was crowded Saturday heading south. There is a big event downtown, and the Husky game was Saturday night, although lots of people headed down early for the tailgating.
I spoke with a couple of Husky fans Saturday afternoon on the train who were uncertain about where to get off for the stadium. They said they usually drive to the stadium from Lake Stevens, but now they were going to take Link instead. It was their very first time on Link.
The people of SnoCo really seem quick to integrate LLE into their transportation usage. It’s impressive.
“We just missed a train and had to wait 12min. ”
Out of curiosity, at street level did you notice when the next train was (via the monitor) and just missed it when getting down to the platform? Or did you notice you had just missed it while on street level and then decided to go down and wait at the platform? (Not asking in a right/wrong way, I’m just interesting in how people spend their time while waiting for the next bus/train.)
Was honestly not paying attention with the 1yo, and heard the train pull away when we were on the escalator. I probably would have down anyway since that station is one of the better to hang around (lots of space, my kids like the art installation)
People from SnoCo are quickly integrating the new Link extension into their travel. I went to the Dawg game yesterday on Link starting at one of the older stations and the train was packed with people coming from further north along the new line.
https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/uw-football-fans-pack-trains-taking-advantage-extension-lynnwood/281-3e579a42-a155-4635-ba56-5174572cf2f2
A friend of mine drive I-5 down around the same time and he said he kept getting passed by Link trains because the traffic was so bad.
Ever since Northgate Link went in, lots of people have been using Link to get to the Husky football games from the north. The Northgate parking area (which handle a lot of cars) would often be overflowing. Mall security would try and discourage people from parking where they shouldn’t, but it was pretty obvious that folks were ignoring them (lots of people dressed in purple walking towards the station). It will be nice to see this spread out a bit. As others have mentioned, I expect Northgate ridership to take a bit of a dip — this will be especially true on Saturday’s like yesterday.
Thank you to UW and ST if they coordinated to run later trains for this late game.
American sports is different from the rest of the world. Unlimited overtimes in football and extra innings in baseball don’t respect the need for trains to quit on time. With futbol, we go with the rest of the world’s acceptance of draws. Even in tournaments, extra sessions and shootouts are reasonably calculable for transit planning purposes.
24 minutes for the train (based on the schedule, not the outdated projections the reporter used) to get from Husky Stadium Station to Lynnwood Station is … Wow! Take a Bow, ST and UW!
The great thing about a high capacity, high frequency system is that it can be used for more things than commuting. It should work well for special events.
As much as park-and-ride is panned, the addition of these hundreds of spaces will ease a pent-up demand for Husky football game day parking. I expect a similar outcome at South Bellevue when the full 2 Line opens as well as from South King when FWLE opens in the next two years.
One concern that I think will grow is the vertical circulation deficiencies that remain. Big crowds mean heavy escalator and elevator use. It’s different than with typical commuting surges. It’s much more pronounced, especially after games.
Other systems will build something like three escalators with the middle one reversible to accommodate event crowd patterns. Of course ST didn’t plan for anything like that.
I wonder if someone at ST looked at garage occupancy yesterday. In time, I’m expecting to see traveler information displaying which lot has available spaces like along I-5 near Alderwood.
I saw a crush loaded 4 car train going NB between Mountlake Terrace and Lynnwood around 11:30 last night. Clearly, Lynnwood is going to be by far the most popular park and ride option for games and weekend events, I be they filled up that garage and had a bunch of people calling Uber as well. (Bus service is pretty limited at that hour, though I suppose some took 512 to go further north). And clearly, the 512 busses could never have kept up with all those riders. Let’s see how things settle in next week, especially Tuesday to Thursday commute hours and Friday and Saturday afternoons, I suspect it won’t be a slow rollout like the weeks after the Northgate Link opening.
Northgate opened during the pandemic, which made it a very weird opening. On the one hand it was the most important extension we had ever done and part of the core network that was the absolute minimum you would want to build (U-District to downtown). This is a huge deal. On the other hand, it was during the pandemic, so enthusiasm was muted.
Link has been showing growing weekend demand generally as compared to weekdays. It’s a fascinating trend that hasn’t been fully analyzed.
In 2019, Saturdays were in the 70-75 percent of weekdays and Sundays were in the 55-65 percent.
In 2024, Saturdays are in the 90-100 percent of weekdays and Sundays are in the 75-85 percent range.
Simply put, Link represents a major shift in transit behavior. It’s a stark difference from Sounder and many ST Express routes, which have notably lost riders on their peak, commute-oriented service.
What does that mean for the future? To me, it points to a need to anticipate that transit investments should serve all types of trips rather than just commuters. That includes decent frequency away from peak hours and fewer peak-only routes. Services like Stride, Swift and RapidRide do this in addition to Link.
There was a pandemic too, remember. That shook up where people live and work and what they use transit for.
“it points to a need to anticipate that transit investments should serve all types of trips rather than just commuters. That includes decent frequency away from peak hours and fewer peak-only routes.”
And that’s exactly what Metro, Sound Transit, and Community Transit have been doing.
Excitement on LLE today!
Apparently some guy went into a hotel in Lynnwood and stole a bunch of suitcases. Apparently he is heading toward the LR station to make his getaway.
Security just scrambled at 148th and is heading north to provide backup. But I bet the guy doesn’t even make it to the LCC station. They seem to be on top of it.
This is my first time at 148th. Went there just to check it out. Very expansive. Main floor of the parking garage is almost full already. And the bus infrastructure is impressive.
Oh. And lots of geofoam just north of the station. Lots of it.
One P&R level full on a Sunday morning. That’s unusual. If it’s not opening-weekend tourism and there’s not some big event midday, it indicates this P&R is bucking the trend of other P&Rs. Most other P&Rs are busy only 7-6 weekdays, and almost empty at other times.
Mike: Bumbershoot is going on from 12 to midnight, that might have something to do with it. Tomorrow (Labor Day) might be a better indication of demand during an “off” day.
Another Metallica concert at Lumen Field Sunday evening. 60k+ fans.
Literally the worst possible getaway vehicle. You’re being recorded every step of the way, and there is security at most stations, and you can’t just drive away from the police and have them not pursue.
And if you have to wait for a train you’re a sitting duck.
A thief stealing anything moderately bulky has to be pretty dumb to steal via transit. Between stairs and video cams and witnesses/ security they’ll both be seen and will struggle carrying bulky things.
Even for small things like shoplifting of small things like jewelry or clothes, cameras are good enough to do facial recognition in stations these days.
I sometimes read transit haters that suggest that crime will increase if they get rail transit. I always laugh at this! A seasoned thief certainly knows better!
A question: Has the police used Orca card taps to research crimes? What about ST station monitoring cams?
Yeah, I remember people saying that Link would bring crime to their area. That always seems profoundly stupid. A car is much faster and even a bike allows you to get away anonymously (although a lot of thieves steal cars then something else). This just shows there is no limit to the stupidity of thieves.
“Has the police used Orca card taps to research crimes?”
How does an Orca tap give any useful information about a crime? All it says is the person was there, not whether they’re a criminal or are carrying stolen goods. It would be one tap out of a dozen to find the perp, and you’d have to know who you were looking for beforehand.
@Brandon,
“Literally the worst possible getaway vehicle.”
Ya, but if the brightest idea you’ve ever had is to steal some suitcases out of a hotel lobby, then I can’t imagine that you’ll do a better job picking a getaway vehicle.
But it’s OK. The security guard was in the process of telling me all about his relationship problems, and sort of soliciting advice. So maybe it is OK that he had to run away to chase down some perp. Change of subject!
@Mike Orr
Why would a thief tap an orca card??
If they get a fine for not tapping, they could offer the George Forman barbecue they’re carrying as payment.
Since this is technically an open thread, I thought this was an interesting article about the South Renton TC:
https://www.theurbanist.org/2024/08/29/renton-proposes-moving-sound-transit-bus-station/
It certainly could be easier for Stride buses to get off southbound (although lanes still have to be crossed) and maybe back on — but northbound Stride buses still have a big challenge ahead.
I think that traffic circulation in that area needs a full rethinking to make it easier for Stride no matter what happens. But I don’t see that much benefit to moving the garage unless a much bigger circulation strategy is proposed and funded.
The concept was half-baked in ST3 (only stating that the garage would be built but with no access improvements) and now Renton and ST have had eight years to refine this. It sometimes even reads like it was a property acquisition gift thrown into the ST3 measure without prior analysis. Why is a new approach that now delays it suddenly gaining traction?
It’s not getting traction yet; it’s something the city of Renton is proposing. ST and King County aren’t convinced yet according to the Urbanist article.
It seems crazy expensive for what it gets you (a fairly minor decrease in travel time).
It also shows the flaw with a lot of these freeway BRT plans. They assume one and only one line. There is value in that — it keeps service costs low, which means that frequency is decent. But it also means through-routing takes longer. If you have a set of overlapping “Blue Streak” type of buses it could work better. For example run a bus from various place in Renton to Downtown Bellevue every 15 minutes during the day. Have it stop at the freeway station north of Renton. The 405-bus would skip Renton, but stop at the same freeway station. Thus riders from Burien could take a two-seat ride to various places in Renton without delaying the vast majority of riders who are headed to Downtown Bellevue. Seeing as the Renton Station doesn’t have much by it, the vast majority of riders will be transferring anyway.
This can also be extended to Auburn and Kent in the middle of the day (when it is difficult for them to justify service to Bellevue). Yes, it takes a while to go through Renton, but the option is basically nothing. Meanwhile, during peak you could run an express from Auburn/Kent to Bellevue that skips Renton (staying in the HOT lanes the whole way) along with that other bus.
By focusing on the one route you end up trying to do too much. You want it to be a painless way of connecting to Renton (like a freeway station) but with more value (like a local station). I’m not saying you can’t do both, but that comes at a price (for through riders).
There’s no reason it can’t evolve into a multi-line system later. ST considered both single-line and multi-line operations but went with single-line for lower costs. It could add short runs later, like to serve downtown Kirkland. That would be cheaper than extending Issaquah Link to downtown Kirkland.
A useful light rail line, unlike the West Seattle Link Extension.
I think they actually have a lot in common. Both follow an expressway. This means that they don’t compete well with driving, despite the enormous cost in building grade-separated infrastructure. It fails the “faster than driving at noon test”.
This also means that buses could achieve much the same thing at a lot less cost. In the case of Lynnwood you would need to redo the HOV ramps leading to Northgate Station (and change the lanes from HOV-2 to HOV-3). In the case of West Seattle you just need to add ramps from the Spokane Street viaduct to the SoDo Busway.
In both cases there are trade-offs with that approach. The extension saves service hours (assuming they truncate the buses). Community Transit and Sound Transit will stop running express buses to Downtown Seattle and Northgate from the north. It is assumed that once West Seattle Link is built, Metro truncates the buses there. These savings ultimately mean more bus service in other places. This is good. But the cost of these projects is enormous and they could have just spent that money on adding service. There is value in spending capital on long-term savings, but even then it isn’t clear this is the best way to do it.
But there are significant differences. Lynnwood Link is an extension. Many of the buses have been truncated already. Some express bus riders will lose their one-seat ride to downtown but not that many (since those buses only ran during peak). Some riders lose their one-seat ride to Northgate but Northgate is not a major destination. Thus the savings are not huge, but the pain to riders is pretty minimal and a lot of people come out ahead. Some riders have one less transfer. Instead of transferring at Lynnwood and then again at Northgate they take a bus to Lynnwood and ride Link.
In contrast, West Seattle Link is basically a whole new line. None of the buses are truncated at a Link station. The vast majority of buses go downtown (unlike Snohomish County, where only a handful do). They go downtown all day long (including most of the day when traffic is light). Thus a lot of riders will be significantly worse off with Link. Instead of a one-seat ride to downtown it will be a two-seat ride. This also means a three seat ride to places like First Hill, Uptown and Bellevue.
Another big difference is that the West Seattle junction is a significant destination. Not big enough to justify a new (very expensive) line (it is not like Capitol Hill let alone First Hill or the UW) but it is similar to Columbia City: a place people want to visit to experience the culture. I really don’t see anything like that in any of the Lynnwood Link stations.
The biggest difference between West Seattle and Lynnwood Link is the map:
https://seattletransitblog.com/2019/01/30/link-riders-2040/
You have to go all the way to Lynnwood before there’s an obvious significant drop in ridership, and it remains fairly consistent north of there..
Based on those ridership estimates, Lynnwood would really be the obvious place to end Link going northward.
They also indicate the most obvious place to end West Seattle Link is built it no further south or west than Stadium. That’s where the obvious ridership drop happens.
Yeah, but ridership estimates are often off by a lot. Ridership only tells part of the story as well. It is a good starting point. If not that many people ride a bus and it costs a lot to run the bus, then maybe it isn’t worth it. But then again, maybe those riders get a lot out of the bus. For example let’s say you run an express from Kent to downtown and it gets half the ridership of the 150. That still might be worth it, just because those riders save an enormous amount of time compared to the 150.
When it comes to these sorts of projects, I tent to look at several things:
1) Cost.
2) Alternatives.
3) Competition. How does this compete with a car. Is it faster than driving (at noon).
4) Density. Not just population density but visitation density (school, work, entertainment, health care, etc.).
5) Proximity. Hugely important factor that is often overlooked by the general public. We tend to focus on the trips that are far away but transit is dominated by the trips that are relatively close.
6) The network.
All of these go together. For example the 130th station will probably never be a major station as far as density goes (nor will most of the Lynnwood Link stations). But it fits in really well with the network. Taking a bus from Bitter Lake to the station and then riding the train to Capitol Hill means going from one dense area to another. The total trip time (including the bus) is not that long (it is relatively proximate). Despite the transfer, it competes well with driving (mostly because the Capitol Hill Station competes really well with driving, but also because a bus doesn’t have to travel that far along 130th). A crossing bus enhances the network. Could you provide an alternative that worked just about as well? For the cost of the overall extension: probably. For the cost of the station itself: probably not.
Oh, I forgot to mention one big difference: Lynnwood Link has a lot of parking. This is not meant as a critique (one way or another) — I’m just saying it is a big difference.
“Faster than driving at noon” is more like “faster than driving at 10 – 11 AM” these days. As soon as the express lanes reverse at around 11 (1 PM on weekends), traffic quickly backs up from Northgate to the bridge. By noon, it’s often very slow, so slow that people divert to Aurora Ave, and it stays like that deep into the evening. Not even crashes, it’s just volume.
I agree. There are some important differences.
1. There are no expensive tunnels on LLE like WSLE increasing project costs by hundreds of millions.
2. There are no wide waterways to cross that must satisfy height requirements requiring hundreds of millions extra.
3. The required additional land was less — and when required was less expensive. Having I-5 there saved a ton on cost.
4. There are a large number of parking garage spaces added. Without those, I’m not sure how supportive the region would be (especially Snohomish County).
5. I-5 traffic congestion is worse in almost every respect compared to West Seattle Bridge corridor congestion (longer congestion distance, more congested hours, worse travel times for trips headed Downtown).
6. The topography around the stations is much gentler with LLE, enabling larger walksheds.
7. The anticipated TOD around the stations covers more area and is much more ambitious with LLE than WSLE. The area north of Lynnwood CC alone is about as big as the entire aggregate upzoning acreage anticipated with all of West Seattle Link — and three more LLE Station TOD areas all have been in development in addition to that one making the aggregate TOD acreage much larger by comparison.
The only thing that WSLE has going for it is that it’s closer to Downtown,
“The area north of Lynnwood CC”
Do you mean Edmonds CC? There’s no Lynnwood CC that I know of.
To be fair to West Seattle, part of the upzoning already occurred in the 2010s.
There are other obvious differences as well, like the fact that Lynnwood Link is extremely long, with stations really far apart. In contrast West Seattle Link has a big gap, then stations not that far apart. Of course there are physical differences, but overall I see a lot of similarities, which gets me to your points:
1, 2, 3 — Sure, but Lynnwood Link wasn’t cheap. It was over $3 billion dollars, despite cost-cutting.
4 — Yeah, I forgot to include parking in the original comment. This is a big difference.
5 — Yes, but in both cases there are fairly simple remedies. In the case of I-5 the first thing you do is change the HOV lanes. In both cases you want to do a little bit more if you want to compete with Link. In both cases that means ramps to expressways.
In contrast consider getting to Capitol Hill from either direction on Link. There are no expressways to leverage. I guess you could add bus lanes connected to the freeway and then add HOV lanes to the main line but you still have to deal with traffic lights. None of that seems simple, cheap or clearly effective.
6/7. The walkshed around Lynnwood Link station is fairly limited due to various greenbelts and the freeway ramps nearby. If you count the future 130th station, three out of five stations are very close to a golf course. Roughly half of the Lynnwood Link area is cut off from development (everything on the other side of the freeway is greenbelt). To get to the first potential development is too far of a walk. Overall it seems like a wash in terms of potential walkshed. The Junction seems very good, while Delridge is quite limited. 185th is really good, 148th is not.
If you consider the cost of development and a potentially flat market (which we haven’t had in a long time) then in terms of TOD, West Seattle seems better. I think a lot of people would prefer living close to the Junction, as opposed to be very close to I-5. That doesn’t matter now. People build wherever they are allowed to build. But if Seattle (and the surrounding suburbs) changed their zoning I think the areas close to the stations would still be attractive while the areas close to the Lynnwood Link stations would not.
None of that changes my opinion about West Seattle Link. I don’t think it is a good project — at all. The alternative seems clear (just build the ramps to the SoDo Busway) whereas the alternative to Lynnwood Link are not so clear (and the trade-offs trickier). I guess that is another difference. Lynnwood Link may have been a bad project, but West Seattle Link definitely is.
Lynnwood CC = Lynnwood City Center Ststion ( not a community college).
“ To be fair to West Seattle, part of the upzoning already occurred in the 2010s.”
I’m commenting about the acreage in the upzone and not the upzone itself.
West Seattle Ststion anrea upzone isn’t really much further than Edmonds, Oregon and 44th Ave except right along California. There is also upzone near the proposed Avalon Station but even there it’s bound by West Seattle Golf Course and by single family zoning north of Fauntleroy.
Note too that Lynnwood is allowing 12 story buildings. West Seattle isn’t.
West Seattle Link is a long ways away, so it is hard to say how it will be upzoned. I don’t think it will have 12-story buildings though. I mainly look at what the potential development could be. A lot of the places along the freeway have limited potential, no matter what they do in terms of zoning. For example I was surprised at how limited limited Lynnwood Station is. I kind of forgot about the creek. Same goes for some — but not all — of the stations in West Seattle. Overall it looks rather similar.
How is crowding in north Seattle and Capitol Hill with these large loads in Shoreline? Can people still get on? Is ST running trains every 1.5 minutes like it does after some ballgames?
After-ballgame management could become more complicated. Until now ST sent northbound trains every 1.5 minutes, and some would go all the way to Northgate, and some would turn around at Roosevelt or Capitol Hill. That sort of manages the demands for game and non-game trips, although in the reverse direction you might wait twenty minutes for a train.
This seems like it would be more complicated to manage now. The terminations at Roosevelt reflected the fact that only a small percent of total riders were going to Northgate. But now if a significantly larger percent of riders are going north of Roosevelt, it would seem more complicated to add more turnbacks, or more trains would go all the way, thus short-shrifing the area between Capitol Hill and Roosevelt. So that will be something to watch.
2 Line will help lots. Unfortunately the simulation period is currently scheduled to begin in November 2025 partway through UW and Seahawks football seasons. (November 7 in the latest ST progress report).
The simulation commencement day is important because 2 Line trains should presumably be in-service and carrying riders between International District and Lynnwood.
It may be impossible, but if ST could reach simulation commencement even just a few weeks earlier, it would really help next year’s football going!
Line 2 won’t help with baseball games much at all, because it’s another third of a mile to IDS from T-Mob. It will help with football, of course, because IDS is actually closer than “Stadium” station.
How does ST do a turnback at Roosevelt with 1.5 minute headways? Is a terminating train put on the southbound track back at UW Station and run against traffic all the way to Roosevelt? Or is there a cross-over just south of Roosevelt that I have not noticed yet?
I wish ST (or a careful layperson) would publish an accurate track diagram.
With the creation of the the new DSTT2 station schemes, it’s too bad that a 2 Line station wasn’t placed (or reserved) above Airport Way on the East Link tracks. That station could have offered access to T-Mobile Park and a transfer to the proposed new 1 Line station at 5th south of Seattle Blvd. that would have needed elevators to transfer but the walking effort could be similar or maybe shorter than the schemes now officially preferred. By the Board.
And the high speed rail concepts have suggest that this area is where the eventual Seattle high speed rail station should go.
Because the existing light rail track curves, I don’t think an infill station is possible without some major reconstruction.
“Line 2 won’t help with baseball games much at all, because it’s another third of a mile to IDS from T-Mob.”
People going to games walk that distance all the time. It’s no further than rides today would need to walk to catch the 550.
That’s good to hear, but I can’t imagine that a huge number of people take the 550 to and from baseball games. Its only parking is at South Bellevue, it really doesn’t have much of a walkshed and I-90 isn’t nearly as congested as I-5 for those who drive.
Anyway this thread is about Link usage on the north line, not to Bellevue. Using IDS will be a reasonable “beat the crowds” gamble when Line 2 opens, but someone who walks to it will usually see several packed Line 1 “specials” roll by with no room that they might have gotten on at Stadium while they wait for a Line 2 train which will be the only service that has room for them.
Folks will weigh that and most will probably stick with the specials at Stadium.
“I can’t imagine that a huge number of people take the 550 to and from baseball games”
Tell that to the people who have been doing so for years. When I come back from visiting my family, on some game days it’s standing room only.
When it comes to pro sports teams, they usually have regional fan bases. It doesn’t usually matter how far the fan is from the stadium to interest them in attending a game.
Both in terms of population catchment areas as well as in available park and ride spaces, 1 Line north and south are both at least double the magnitude of 2 Line east.
And as sporting events go, Mariners baseball fans don’t seem to surge and most games don’t get anywhere the attendance of an average Seahawks game (33K for a Mariners game and 69 K for a Seahawks game). So it’s much easier (less overcrowding) to carry 2 Line riders who are Mariners fans one more station if they don’t want the long walk.
Playing with that 33K, if the assumption is 40% north, 40% south and 20% east — and assuming that half are Link station parkers and the park and ride cars each have modestly 2 fans on average (most events actually have closer to 3 fans per car), that just is needing 1650 spaces east and 3300 spaces each north and south. That should be accommodated for an evening or weekend game by 2026 (assuming garage spaces are mostly vacant at game time) as the 2026 system will have about 4K spaces available in aggregate in each of the three directions. So parking appears to not be an issue for the Mariners.
And that’s not even looking at train capacity. Even with 8 trains an hour and a conservative 700 riders per train per direction, that’s 5,600 directional hourly rider capacity for 1 Line. Adding north and east transit riding fans together (60%) at half of total attendance for an average game, it’s 9,900 riders but for just one stop plus that assumes that everyone boards at Stadium station. Throw in a few peak extra trains and the stadium crowds can be managed.
And no matter what, a game goer won’t have to factor in Seattle traffic congestion and possible parking hassles and long walks to the stadium to attend a weekend or evening Mariners game.
My calculations may seem rambling, but they should make a point: By 2026, there won’t be any major systemic constraints to riding transit to a Mariners game unless you are mobility impaired or severely claustrophobic (and if you are the latter you’d probably avoid pro games altogether). The only other possible major constraint is service after a late running game, but ST knows how to operationally accommodate that so that a fan won’t become stranded. I’ll leave it to the event planning experts to get more into the weeds.
It doesn’t usually matter how far the fan is from the stadium to interest them in attending a game.
To a point. There are probably a lot more people from Bellevue who attend a game than people from Tacoma. Tacoma is just farther away. With Husky games there are plenty of people who are affiliated with the school (or go there) who live fairly close.
But overall I think that makes sense. Density and proximity don’t matter as much. Plenty of people who rarely take transit take it to the game. But not everyone does. There are plenty of people who will just drive to the game (traffic be damned). There are also plenty of people who use buses instead. Someone attending a Husky game from Kirkland will likely ride the bus instead of going to Bellevue or Redmond first. For Seahawk games I think it is likely that almost everyone who takes transit from the East Side eventually gets on Link. But from the north and south this isn’t the case. Someone from Ballard, Magnolia or Queen Anne will just take the bus. Along the Aurora and Greenwood corridors it is quite likely they take the bus as well (although it depends on the cross street). Someone from West Seattle will take the bus and a lot of people in Rainier Valley prefer the 7 over Link. In Renton they will take the bus. Oh and then there is the Sounder train — it is common for ST to run special trains for the games.
So yeah, I agree, I don’t see a major problem with crowding during game day. The one exception is something like Monday Night Football. I could see a big surge in people coming from the East Side along with the regular (reverse) commuters just trying to get home. Even then I think Link can handle it. At worst they run a few express buses (e. g. to Eastgate).
The 1 line now goes from S 200th street in King County to 200th street SW in Snohomish County.
400 streets!
More than 400:
The county line is 244th st SW of Snohomish, which is equivalent to N 205th for King. So King County’s portion is 200 + 205 = 405 and Snohomish County’s portion is 244 – 200 = 44. That’s a total of 449 streets. That’s over 30 miles of track.
That’s good transit trivia.
The 1 Line is is over 33 miles of track (according to Wikipedia). As the crow flies I get 27.7 miles.
Blocks sizes vary. In most of King County the numbers streets are either 16 a mile or 20 a mile. I think it 16 a mile in most of Snohomish County although in Everett itself the streets are really big (11 blocks per mile by my calculation).
Speaking of transit trivia, here is an interesting one. What is the largest distance between two stations on the New York City Subway line? I’m not talking about the gap between adjacent stations on the same line. I’m talking about drawing the longest line between one station and another. From what I can tell that means going from Wakefield-241st Street (the northernmost station) to West Eighth Street–New York Aquarium station (the southernmost station). By my calculation it is less than 24 miles between the stations (as the crow flies). Our system is already longer than the NY City Subway. In both cases a straight line manages to skip downtown. But if you divert a little bit to downtown, our system is still longer.
However if you measure the distance from the center of town to the farthest station they are roughly the same. From Midtown Manhattan to the farthest station is about 15 miles. This includes those two stations as well as the Far Rockaway Station (to the southeast). Similarly it is about that far from the middle of Downtown Seattle to Lynnwood and a bit shorter to Angle Lake. When the train gets to Federal Way though, it will extend farther from the city center than the New York City Subway.
I think the same is true for other major metro systems. The Chicago ‘L’ for example, extends all the way out to O’Hare. That is a long ways. Despite the airport — once the busiest in the world — that extension didn’t get built until 1984. But it is still closer to the center of town than Federal Way Station. Most metros — even really big ones serving major cities — seem to have a “natural limit” of around fifteen miles. We are building a very, very long subway.
We’re building a hybrid system that has some aspects of a city metro (in Seattle and the Eastside) and some aspects of regional rail (Federal Way, Everett, Tacoma). As such, it’s mediocre at both tasks, although it has a particularly effective niche between downtown and Lynnwood for some kinds of trips that other cities don’t have. I.e., it’s faster than it would be if it stopped every half mile, and it’s dramatically faster than the local buses.
In between are areas like Shoreline and Lynnwood. A city metro can extend to the airport and the next city: SeaTac to Lynnwood is similar to some light rail lines in the Rhine-Ruhr video. In contrast it’s hard to see an I-5 version of Sounder having a Shoreline station, much less two. Or it might have a Shoreline station but no Mountlake Terrace station for more even spacing between Seattle and Lynnwood.
P.S. The Rhine-Ruhr video would like some comment love. It’s an open thread now.
We’re building a hybrid system that has some aspects of a city metro (in Seattle and the Eastside) and some aspects of regional rail (Federal Way, Everett, Tacoma).
Yes, and like a lot of hybrids, it isn’t very good at either. Regional/commuter rail is usually very cheap. Almost everyone who ever runs trains out to the suburbs or surrounding cities uses rail lines that were there a long, long time ago. We didn’t. We built brand new lines, which is why they were so expensive (billions instead of millions). The S-Bahn systems (which are also hybrid) do this. The part outside of the city is cheap, the part inside is like a traditional metro.
If they don’t have trains going to that part of town they just run buses. Buses leveraging the existing roadways is also cheap. I think people assume that everyone in Europe takes trains to get around, but most cities have a very extensive bus system (especially for the suburbs).
Because we were so focused on the (far less important) regional rail piece, we shortchanged our metro. There are way too few stops inside the city. They are often in the wrong place (e. g. in Rainier Valley the stops should be on Rainier, not MLK). At best we built an S-Bahn without a U-Bahn (but spent a lot more money on it).
This sort of thing is weird. It is basically unheard of outside of this country. I think we just don’t know how to build transit very well in the US. Other countries leverage the existing freeways and existing rail for the suburbs. They spend the bulk of their money on their urban metro — making sure it covers as much of the city as possible. They figure that at worst someone from the suburbs takes a bus to the edge of town and then gets on the metro. Thus you dramatically improve the vast majority of transit trips (which are within the urban center) while also allowing those outside to get into the city (and around the city) fairly easily. We seem to ignore all transit history from around the world and just build what looks good on a regional map.
Why does seem like the opening day festivities/number of tents, etc., at any of the LLE stations , were many times bigger than those at ELSL stations, like Bellevue Downtown or Redmond Technology? Am I correct in my observation? If so, what’s the reason? LCC opening day looks 5x bigger than Bellevue Downtown. I have a theory, but I’ll save it and see what other people say. I imagine some of you will say there wasn’t enough room at Bellevue Downtown for more tents and stuff.
BTW, the person who took the post video also took another opening day video from each of the stations. Some really nice views of the LCC station area from the elevated platform.
https://youtu.be/pE78W1L0FdU
My opinions — succinctly :
1. More anticipated riders in week 1.
2. Fewer stations to visit.
3. Better weather.
4. The Bellevue stations were just opening a starter line that didn’t access downtown Seattle.
I the the fact that East Link didn’t go across the water took away some of the excitement. I expect a lot more fanfare when it does.
Ok, that a good explanation. The starter line doesn’t go to Seattle, so not as much opening day festivities and smaller crowd size. But has any Link station opening day, including the one’s back in 2009, been bigger than Lynnwood’s?
The cities and neighborhood associations were responsible for the festivities, so it was whatever scale they made it.
What happens to Mountlake Terrace’s Freeway Station? Will there be service using it with Link opening and bus restructures? What are long term plans? It’s a pretty nice piece of relatively new transit infrastructure that clearly cost quite a bit to build, would be a shame to see it unused or demolished.
This isn’t my main travel area so have minimal knowledge of this area
Good question! It seems to be a bit of an albatros now. I think Route 515 might serve it in the near term.
FHWA only lets state DoT’s do anything inside freeways. So a private use like drive-through coffee won’t happen. One way around that could be to declare it tribal land. Tulalip buses?
It doesn’t appear that an overcrossing extension can connect to something else like a trail on the other side.
It does provide a wide median space so it could be easier to build a lid with supports in the median for a park or a building (less distance to span).
When I scan the web, I find nothing.
It may just sit there until it gets too unsafe or expensive to maintain. Then it will likely get demolished.
510 and 515 will still be serving the stop after CTs restructure in a couple weeks. I could see it being used for intercity coach service like Flixbus, Amtrak Cascades, etc. outside peak commute hours. Casino busses as well. Just a matter of if it’s legal for a private entity to use public transit infrastructure in WA state.
Good question about use by private buses. I don’t know who owns it. It may be considered owned by WSDOT as part of the state highway system rather than an official transit facility — like a bus lane on 99.
It has Community Transit’s name on it.
According to Wikipedia the facility is owned by WSDOT.
Yeah, people have talked about it before. No one really knows how it will be used in the future. Plenty of speculation though. Some ideas:
1) Intercity buses. I don’t really see it. It is faster than stopping in Lynnwood, but Lynnwood is a much bigger transit hub with a much bigger parking area. I don’t see an intercity bus stopping at both.
2) Private buses. Same idea. I just don’t see it.
3) Buses like the 322 and 303 (which go to First Hill or South Lake Union). Maybe, but I doubt Community Transit will be eager to run buses like that. Maybe ST would (since they run the express from Tacoma to the UW). Buses like these tend to scrap for every rider, so it is likely it stops at both Mountlake Terrace and Lynnwood.
4) Keep the 510 indefinitely. This is similar to the third option. One difference is that it benefits from the fact that there are plenty of other options for getting from Everett to Lynnwood, so it doesn’t need to stop at Lynnwood. Then again I wouldn’t be surprised if ST keeps the 510 but drops this stop. Hard to imagine a lot of riders going from Everett to Mountlake Terrace in the morning (or the reverse in the evening).
5) Allow carpools to use it. This seems like a bad idea (just for safety reasons).
But it is also possible that it eventually just stops being used. Infrastructure gets replaced all the time. The 520 Montlake stop went away. It just wasn’t worth trying to accommodate it — not with UW Link (and all the buses going to the UW). The original bus tunnel had a stop at Convention Place Center. It is gone for good. I’m sure there are other local exampled I can’t think of (and plenty across the country as well).
That doesn’t mean the infrastructure wasn’t worth it.
The 510 added the Mountlake Terrace stop sometime in the late 2010s or early 2020s as mitigation for something else that was deleted; I don’t remember what. It was to allow transfers between express routes.
This is the part I don’t get. At the time that Mountlake Terrace Freeway station was built, Sound Transit already knew that Link would be going to Lynnwood, and that this station would be obsolete in 10-15 years, yet they built it anyway The price tag to build it feels very high for something with so short of a useful lifespan.
Now, it’s just going to get mothballed.
Lynnwood Link wasn’t certain until the 2008 vote. I’m pretty sure the freeway station was built before that. In any case, it’s not Sound Transit’s station, so ST had no control over whether it was built. You know how Snohomish commuters are. They tell their politicians to speed up their commutes NOW, not waiting around for Link.
There’s been talk about what to use the flyer stop for, from some amount of ongoing express service to a transfer point between buses and the train, etc.
I don’t know if any of those things will ever happen, but folks around here in south SnoCo are aware that it represents a valuable piece of infrastructure and would like to find a reason for it to remain important.
But even as late is around 2015-ish people were still talking about possibly putting the light rail station where the current flyer stop is, so there was that idea being floated around too. I’m glad that didn’t happen, though, considering the train is a closer walk to the neighborhoods nearby where it is now straddling 236th. Believe it or not it’s about a 5 minute walk from the street to where the bus stops are: https://maps.app.goo.gl/pBhf9zGMNBi2wGdBA
It will come in handy on bus bridge days.
That is a good point Sam. It probably costs money to maintain it, but that would be worth it for that reason alone.
The flyer stop was built in 2011 and cost $35 million. That is less than $3 million a year. That doesn’t seem like a bad value to me. By the way, I think the reason it could be built relatively cheaply is because it was essentially just grass between the northbound and southbound freeway. You can see that by looking at the old pictures: https://maps.app.goo.gl/tBtSXie2ZtUkZ4Qf6. This meant that the freeway part was fairly cheap.
I think they should do the same thing for Ash Way, and my guess is it would be even cheaper. There is basically a stub to the north (https://maps.app.goo.gl/89ZCfgX7ELTbf6Pi9). Build some relatively small ramps and you are done. This would save buses like the 512 a lot of time. Everett Link is thirteen years away (and it could easily be delayed further). Even after Everett Link the stop would have value for some buses, or at worst it would be another way for people to get to the station (for carpooling or kiss-and-ride).
@Dave — Yes, the stop for the light rail is much better than the stop for the bus. It is also a ways between the two.
Ross, I talked to some ST reps at a EVLE open house a while ago about plans to finish the Ash Way Bus ramps to connect to the north so buses don’t have to be stuck in traffic on 164, but they mentioned that WSDOT is not a fan of doing these sort of projects anymore – and perhaps it isn’t worthwhile anymore. IIRC it was originally meant to go both ways but budget cuts ended up making it south only.
That being said, I heard there are plans to connect it to the east side of I5 as a potential bus / bike route when the Ash Way station opens.
@D — Thanks for the info. That is disappointing. I get that WSDOT may have other priorities, but this seems like a very easy win. Hard to imagine anyone objecting to it, unlike half of what they have planned. I suppose it would be disruptive, so there is that. It still looks like the type of project that could be done fairly quickly or bit by bit late at night (when traffic isn’t an issue).
I fear that there isn’t much political pressure because Link is coming. I think this is misguided. Everett Link is a long ways away. Even then I could see the ramps being used. They would not be as valuable, but they would be a lot more valuable than the Mountlake Terrace freeway stop (which I think was well worth it).
RossB: Route 510 between Everett and downtown Seattle via MT could run many years. The issue is the deadhead and storing the buses and operators. For many years, CT had a huge one-way peak-only operation; they even stored buses during the day. The Everett Transit center attracts riders from north Snohomish County and even further north.
How many years before the Legislature funds a WSDOT project to provide reverse peak direction travel on the reversible lanes? The reversible lanes will have very few buses on them. Will the Legislature allow variable tolling? The southbound general purpose lanes have been congested every afternoon for decades. There is spillover traffic to Aurora Avenue North via Northgate Way and North 80th and 85th streets.
Route 510 between Everett and downtown Seattle via MT could run many years.
Agreed.
The issue is the deadhead and storing the buses and operators. For many years, CT had a huge one-way peak-only operation; they even stored buses during the day.
Yeah, it will be much smaller now. After East Link it will be even smaller, although there will always be buses like the 101 (that run more often peak direction). You either deadhead or find a way to store the buses. A lot of the deadheading/storage to the north is gradually heading further north (from downtown/UW to Northgate and now to Lynnwood). A fair number of buses are peak-oriented to Everett and an increasing number are oriented towards Bellevue.
Federal Way Link offers an interesting possibility for some reverse-peak service. Sounder is largely peak direction, which means that I see no reason to run buses peak direction from Tacoma. Truncate the buses at Federal Way during those times. But you can run reverse peak to Tacoma, since traffic is lighter and running a bus is cheaper than running a train. You are still running a few reverse-peak trains, but the buses complement the trains (and can handle the load just fine). This means you could run the 510 from Everett to Seattle, then run the 594 from Seattle to Lakewood (after a break). By the time the bus returns to Federal Way it is no longer rush hour and the bus can just return to base.
The other reverse-peak service is to Boeing (the 513). I think by the end of the year this becomes bidirectional peak-only. This is much simpler (just round trips between Boeing-Everett and Lynnwood).
How many years before the Legislature funds a WSDOT project to provide reverse peak direction travel on the reversible lanes? The reversible lanes will have very few buses on them.
Yeah, which is why I think the legislature isn’t going to do anything about those lanes. Hard to make the case for it with only a handful of buses. There are a lot of issues that would make such a project fairly expensive.
Will the Legislature allow variable tolling? The southbound general purpose lanes have been congested every afternoon for decades. There is spillover traffic to Aurora Avenue North via Northgate Way and North 80th and 85th streets.
I could see that. I think changing the HOV-2 lanes to HOT seems highly likely. It would be much quicker to just convert them to HOV-3, but the state likes the money it gets from tolling. This would likely include the express lanes, which means it doesn’t address the general lanes in Seattle. It is possible they simply take a lane as HOT. Or make the entire freeway HOT. It seems like we are a long ways away from that, and it would have plenty of spillover effects. I want to get bus lanes on all of Aurora first.
Is anyone else concerned about infrastructure reliability at the new stations? The 4 stations opened up 3 days ago, and I’ve already gotten text alerts about 4 elevator outages along with 5 ticket machines outages. I’m especially concerned about elevators seeing as how ST cheaped out and didn’t put down escalators at the new stations.
Yes. This. Noticed the alerts about the aforementiond elevators and ticket machines on Sunday afternoon when my spouse and I checked out the new extension. Unbelievable.
Rode the line from Beacon Hill station north to Lynnwood and back again. Walked around the northern terminus station, garage and the redesigned TC for a bit. Didn’t stop at Mountlake Terrace nor either of the two Shoreline stations as we had walked around the surrounding area at those stations previously.
Some observations:
1. It took 52 minutes to go from Beacon Hill to Lynnwood, station to station. It took 45 minutes coming back. We wanted to go to SeaTac to test the estimate (56 minutes?) but it was already getting into the evening and we would’vd still needed to return to Beacon Hill and drive back home to Sno Co. (And our stomachs were already grumbling. Lol.)
2. The train stopped for a “system restart” at the Shoreline South station. That was unexpected and since the AC went off as well it got a bit uncomfortable sitting there for the additional ~5 minutes. No wait time was announced by the operator over the speaker at the time.
3. The northbound train we were on was far from crowded. The southbound train got pretty full as we got down to the north Seattle stations and beyond but soon cleared out by Stadium. There were several people with bikes on our southbound car, not properly storing them in the cradle areas either. There was a fare enforcement officer at one point but I’m not sure if he was on duty as he said nothing about the bikes blocking the aisle nor did I see him checking for fare payment. I also saw two security personnel board our car southbound, one at Northgate just in and out at the station, and one at U-District Station who rode thru to Westlake. Overall both trips were pleasant and unremarkable other than the aforementioned delay mentioned above.
4. The landscaping is a joke. Both along the line’s ROW and at the one station we visited. ST hacked down a lot of the tree canopy/buffer along I-5 to build this extension and made a big deal at its public meetings about their replacement plantings program. They cut the number of plantings as part of their LLE “value engineering” process when they blew thru their estimate by nearly a billion, claiming that the replacement plantings would be bigger, more established plants and given a longer care time. This all appears to be BS.
5. The Lynnwood Station/TC is a huge concrete wasteland. About the only good things I can say about it are:
a. There is a lot of parking.
b. They managed to repurpose/relocate the humming bird scuplture.
c. Station access by car, drop-off and by bus seems to be pretty good.
With that said, pack a lunch and something to drink. There is nothing terribly close by to nosh on. It was pretty warm on Sunday and there is little shade othan than in the station or under the bus waiting area canopies. I did not find any drinking fountain but perhaps I overlooked one.
Unbelievably the TC is still unfinished in spots. I just don’t get that. The ticket office/help center was closed. Apparently that’s the way it’s going to be, i.e., unstaffed on Sundays. The landscaping and sidewalks around the building are also unfinished.
Overall I was not impressed with the facilities. It looks like just a big empty suburban P&R/commuter rail lot like one sees in so many other places around the country.
6. This ties in with with the previous section but I wanted to give it its own highlight.
The lack of down escalators at the Lynnwood station is something that folks like myself and Al S and some others have been pretty vocal about ever since they were eliminated as part of the value engineering process back in 2017/2018. This is the epitome of a the old expression penny-wise, pound foolish. All I can say now is that they better effing keep those elevators operating at 99%. There are a lot of steps down from the platform that one needs to manage before reaching the ground level. Seeing it in person on Sunday just made me angry at this decision all over again. As my spouse and I were walking down, a younger woman with a couple of kids in front of us even remarked about the number of steps.
P.S. Yes, I’m still around. Have just been reading the articles by our wonderful group of contributors who do all this for us without compensation. I just want to say thank you for that, all your hard work and dedication and just keeping this blog alive thru the last couple of years. I for one am really appreciative of the sacrifices this must entail for you guys. So, yes, I’m still reading your posts and skimming thru the comments as much as possible. Just not commenting these days due to my own time constraints.
On Friday, I saw at least one escalator outage too.
I counted 65 steps down from the Lynnwood Link Platform to the Lynnwood Transit Center. That’s like walking from floor 5 to floor 1 in a building.
Then the walkway at the bottom of the stairs was still a few hundred feet away, and it was fully exposed to the weather. Keep in mind that the is is intended to be the most important Link transfer station in Snohomish County — not only serving many CT feeder routes and Swift but serving Stride too.
If karma hits those responsible in the knees with arthritis , I feel sorry for those that eliminated the down escalator there.
At least a transfer from rail to bus doesn’t require crossing a street like in Bellevue.
Thanks for featuring my video. Feel free to use other videos from my channel showing the new Link extension. There is a southbound timelapse up now and a video on each station stop. The opening day festivals at each station stop was a neat idea and those really brought out the crowds. So many were doing the collect each station stamp event that they ran out of the prize hats.
Oh, I meant to ask in my comment above, does anyone happen to have the STart expenditure number for the LLE project? I know it’s supposed to be 1% of the project’s construction cost but I haven’t looked at the breakdown in a while. Thanks!
Any input on how the weekday northbound commute was this week on link from downtown? Has the expected crush from ridership from new stations materialized yet? Have been out of town and wondering what to expect.