Metro and ST Restructure for Lynnwood Link

23 Replies to “Metro and ST Restructure for Lynnwood Link”

1. I live on 147th and Meridian and am so excited about 333 and 365. Now it’s an easy ride to the Ridgecrest neighborhood center. We have true E-W transit on 145h finally so I can have an easy connection to Aurora and the E Line without having to walk 20 minutes. I can connect all the way to 145th and Greenwood, where there are several great restaurants. And if I want to hit the entertainment district on 85th and Greenwood I can catch the Link to Northgate and take the short ride on the 61. The only travesty is that the 40 doesn’t connect with the Northgate station – but I digress.

   Overall these new routes are changing 145th from a transit desert to an embarrassment of riches. Putting link aside, the 333 and 365 integrate the 145th corridor into so many more sections of Shoreline and North Seattle. Heck, I have a one seat ride to 175th and 15th NE and the business district there via Shoreline Community College. And the Greenwood > Northgate> Lake City connection is a great route. Once Stride kicks in you can call the South Shoreline Link Station a legitimate hub with a wide array of high capacity transit options.

   In any case – bravo Metro for really coming through with this service re-alignment.

   1. Thanks for the input. I didn’t realize how much interconnectivity Shoreline would have or the restaurants at 145th & Greenwood. Residents and non-residents have different perspectives because residents go to more places and know about them.

      What do you mean the 40 doesn’t connect with Northgate station? It terminates at Northgate station.

      1. You’re totally right. I misread the map of the 40. My bad!

      2. Little Tings, Saltoro, A-1 taphouse, Diva Espresso, Asian Kitchen, Kiriba Sushi. It’s more mini- mall type development but Little Tings and Saltoro especially are really good!

   2. I’ll be interested in using the 333 as well and seeing how the connection to shoreline stations to reach Aurora avenue works well or not.

      1. My guess is most of the ridership of the 333 will involve Shoreline College. A lot of people transferring from Link but also some transferring from the E (as well as a few taking a one-seat ride). There are some apartments on 145th (around Greenwood and Linden) and this will be the only way for them to get to Link (until the 77 is added) so it will get a few people that way. Folks closer to the station will probably just walk (although for now that is a pretty nasty option). There will be some riders close to Mountlake Terrace as well as a few other spots but the lower half (from the college to Link) will be by far the most cost effective section.

         Of course it will be difficult to find out, given that there is no easy way to get stop data on routes (from Metro).

      2. @Ros
         Actually I was thinking of using it to reach Aurora avenue from uw /northgate after transferring at shoreline south

      3. You mean a three-seat ride (Link/333/E)?

         That works for some trips, but not too many from what I can see. Anything north of 185th and you are better off with a different bus combination (348 or Swift). From 85th (or places south) the 61 is better.

         But a lot depends on the other part of the journey. Just by playing around with Google Maps it doesn’t seem to come up often — it depends on the timing and the trip pair.

         From the U-District it is often still better to catch the 44 or 45 and then the E. From Northgate there is the similar 40/E, but other options appear. Sometimes it is better to take the (very slow) 345 and then the E. Sometimes the 61 is better (even if you are headed back north). There is even the 348 and E. Since most of the people around Northgate Station don’t live close to the station (they live close to 5th) I think that would be the way to go for plenty of people.

         If you are starting downtown then you’ll take the E instead of a three-seat ride. Even from Capitol Hill you are often better taking the train south and then the E back north.

         Three-seat rides are rarely fast. You have to make up for the transfer penalty. In this case, the crossing buses are not super-frequent. Of course neither is Link right now, and that will change as soon as East Link is done. But the weak link (no pun intended) of a three-seat ride in frequency of the 333. It is good, but not great. There are a few ways to address the issue:

         1) Run the crossing buses more often.
         2) Cover more of Aurora with a crossing bus.

         I could see both happening here. Split the 333 into two different routes. Run the bus from Link to Shoreline College every ten minutes. Run the other bus every 20. Call the frequent bus the 333. Shift the 333 from using 145th to using 155th and 160th (like the old 330). That means you serve two places on Aurora, not one. The 345 could backfill service on 145th.

         When the 77 comes along, the area close to 145th and Aurora is served with the 77. Of course that is the other alternative. Just run more buses along the 130th corridor (or run the 77 more often) since it has the most potential in terms of ridership and provides the most benefit to the network.

      4. “If you are starting downtown then you’ll take the E instead of a three-seat ride. Even from Capitol Hill you are often better taking the train south and then the E back north.”

         Not necessarily. Most people don’t live right at Capitol Hill station. If you live west of it like I’d do you’d take one of the Pine Street buses (now more frequent) to Westlake and either the E or Link. I’d probably take the E if my destination is south of 105th or not near one of the east-west routes.

         If you live east of Capitol Hill station you might walk to the station (since the buses may be less frequent depending on where you’re starting from), and take Link north to the 45, 44, or 61. It’s somewhat time-consuming to go around via downtown and the E. The overhead of waiting for a train and taking it one stop south to Westlake just to take the E north is some overhead. It would make more sense if you’re catching the 5 or something further west or going to south Seattle or the Eastside.

      5. Most people don’t live right at Capitol Hill station.

         Sure, but that means it is even less likely they take a three-seat ride involving the 333. The same is true with the other examples. I generally put places close to the station (to favor the station) but as you move farther away the other options get even stronger. For example if you are at 55th and the Ave then you will just take the 45 north and take the E. If you are at 55th and Roosevelt then you could easily end up taking the 67 followed by the 348 (and then the E). The 333 works in some cases, but not as many as I would have guessed.

      6. > You mean a three-seat ride (Link/333/E)?

         No not a three seat ride a 2 seat one using Link + 333. Just mostly to reach shoreline itself. I’ll probably walk from aurora ave at the closest stop and walk up and down it or walk from fremont ave to aurora ave.

         I’ll admit I’m not quite sure if it makes sense versus using the 345/346, but the 345/346 is less frequent while the 333 runs every 15 minutes.

         I will note the new king county system subarea maps are more useful to use compared to in the past when it was pretty awful to use https://kingcounty.gov/en/-/media/king-county/depts/metro/maps/system/09142024/metro-system-map-nw

         Perhaps we should add a screenshot/link above.

      7. No not a three seat ride a 2 seat one using Link + 333.

         Sure, people along 145th will definitely go that way, just like people along 185th will use the 348 (they will have similar frequency). People up by 200th will take Swift. People along 155th will take the 345 (although it is infrequent enough that they may end up taking some combination involving the E).

         The 333 will also connect Link with 175th & Aurora but that is a pretty big detour. Access to 105th (via the 40) is similar (although the detour is to the south not west). There are a bunch of different places where you can take Link and then access Aurora. In a lot of these places though, Aurora is nothing special. The 44 is probably the best example of that. Ridership at that stop is mostly folks transferring to or from the E. But my guess is relatively few involve a Link trip.

         Back to the 333, there are people fairly close to 145th (especially south on Linden or close to Greenwood) but I still think the driving force for ridership will be the college. I guess one way to determine that is to compare weekday versus weekend ridership. That doesn’t tell the whole story, but it might give us a hint.

      8. Now that Lynnwood Link and the restructures are open, we can see whether people shift from the E to Link+the east-west routes.

      9. Yeah, but it will be tricky to gauge. If people are switching to the E entirely (e. g. taking Link to 185th Station and then taking the 348 to get to Aurora & 185th) then it should show up as lower E ridership. But if they make a three-seat ride (e. g. take Link to 185th, take the 348 and then take the E) then ridership on the E will be exactly the same.

         We also just had a major restructure. Last week the 348 was infrequent. Now it runs a lot more often. Thus last week someone in North City trying to get to say, 165th & Aurora would just drive. Now they can take the 348 and transfer to the E and be there much sooner. Thus the increase in ridership of the E at 185th & Aurora might be due to that, not people transferring from Link.

         Making things trickier is the fact that we don’t have easy access to stop data for the buses. We can only look at the routes, but there could be a lot of reasons why a route has a lot of riders (or not that many). The 333 is a great example. I think ridership will be dominated by the lower half (from the college to Link). But we may never know.

2. One the 130th street station is finished, what do you guys think about sending the 346 there instead of 145th, and then over to Lake City?

   1. That would be an improvement, but I would cross over on 130th and then go to Northgate via 5th. More about that in a second.

      The 346 is an odd bus. It was added at the last minute, presumably because people wanted coverage along Meridian. I actually think this is the right choice. I think there should be a coverage bus on Meridian while there should be fewer east-buses, but they should be more frequent (and all of them should connect directly to Link).

      But any network in the area is challenging. I find it a lot more challenging that the RapidRide G restructure. There are definitely some tricky pieces to that one. For example where to split the 10/12 (if at all) or how to serve MLK (if at all). But even then it is a fairly straightforward trade-off, with some pretty good options that are clearly better than what exists now. Most of it just falls together elegantly.

      But the Metro Lynnwood Link restructure is a lot messier. There are tricky issues due to weaknesses in the road grid and lack of Link stations. Ideally you would want Link stations every ten blocks (half mile apart) with buses running across. But even if Link had that, those streets don’t exist or they don’t cross the freeway. So at some point we are stuck going north or south anyway, which complicates things greatly. One way to handle that is to “stair step” — have a route go north-south, then cross over the freeway (to serve the station) and then continue to go north-south. Another consideration is the density stratification. Some areas are practically desolate, while other areas have plenty of density. Branching is the obvious solution to that issue.

      So with all of that, this is what I’m leaning towards right now:

      1) Send the 75 to Bitter Lake (replacing that part of the 77). The Lake City Way part of the 77 would just end at Lake City Fred Meyer. I would rather send the 65 to Bitter Lake, but for political reasons I don’t see that happening.

      2) Send a new bus from Northgate up 5th. But instead of turning right (to Lake City) turn left and cross the freeway, connecting to the 130th station. As the bus reaches Meridian, it splits. One branch goes up Meridian (this would be the 346). The other bus would serve Four Freedoms and then end at the Shoreline College (call this the 345).

      3) Right now Northwest Hospital (and other destinations on Meridian/College Way, etc.) are served by two buses that branch at 130th & Meridian. Instead this becomes just one bus, the 46. Send that bus to Lake City (Fred Meyer).

      4) Truncate the 365. Make it a short route running only between the two stations on 5th. (There are better solutions than just this stub route, but that’s it for now.)

      This would mean that Lake City would have two frequent buses connecting it to 130th station: the 75 (to Bitter Lake) and the 46 (to Northwest Hospital/Meridian/Northgate). This means 7.5 minute midday frequency to the station. Bitter Lake isn’t so lucky. But they still have 15 minute service via the 75. They also have half hour service via the new 345. If timed it means that half the time there is a 7.5 minute gap between buses. Meanwhile, Four Freedoms gets back its connection to the college. They retain their connection to Northgate. Northwest Hospital (and the clinics to the south) get connected to Lake City. There is full coverage on Meridian, and a fast connection to Link.

      There are a bunch of other changes I would make, but that is the change I would involving that route.

      1. Before Northgate Link, the bus on Meridian used to be a great way to avoid the long, slow slog on the E. It plus the 41 could sometimes be a 20 minute time savings from my friend’s place near 185th to downtown Seattle over going over to Aurora and getting the E. Not sure how well that works now yet, but 346 + Link definitely gets me closer to King Street Station over the southern stop on the E.

         Obviously one pair of points doesn’t make a successful route though.

         There’s a King County court at Cromwell Park that’s a good reason to maintain service on Meridian as well.

3. From the route 348 description:
   “On weekdays, frequency will double between 185th Station and Northgate as it replaces the 347. Half the buses will go to Richland Beach, and the other half make a little loop in Richland Highlands. On weekends all of the buses go to Richland Beach but service (on the entire route) drops to only once every half hour.”

   Should be Richmond Beach/Highlands not Richland Beach/Highlands

   1. @MJS,

      A couple of comments:

      1). Good catch. Someone must have the Tri-Cities on their mind.

      2). How one route with one route number can have two distinct termini is beyond me. It makes it extremely difficult for a casual or ESL passenger to know which bus they are on and which terminus they are going to.

      3). The every other terminus for the #348 doesn’t actually serve Richmond Beach Park. Instead it serves The Cabin Tavern. I’ve never been there, but it must be nice if it gets its own bus route.

      4). Last I knew you couldn’t access the park from Richmond Beach Dr without walking on the railroad tracks. This is to be discouraged.

4. I am a bit surprised how poorly connected the Ash Way park and ride and surrounding areas are to Lynnwood TC, considering how busy Ash Way tends to be and the current boom in the neighborhood. There is a huge transit desert between Highway 99 and I5 north of Ash Way and it is so disheartening to see it go absolutely unaddressed despite so many bus routes changes. The ride from Ash Way, which has a huge lot, to Lynnwood TC should be about 5-10 mins, if not shorter. But with the infrequency of the buses (and the long windedness of the Orange line) people are still looking at wait times of 15-25 mins.

   1. There’s both the swift orange and 512 connecting ashway park and ride to lynnwood transit center. The swift orange runs 10 minute frequency taking 23 min it was while the sound transit express 512 takes only 13 minute but with 15 minute frequency. One can probably take whichever bus comes first as well.

      Overall it’s pretty the both the frequency and speed is good already for a park and ride I’m a bit confused what else you’d prefer it to have

   2. There are two things here: Ash Way the street and Ash Way the park and ride. The street has the 201/202. They run every fifteen minutes. They connect to Lynnwood TC via the freeway. There is also the 109, which runs along the street at ends at the park and ride.

      In terms of service at the park and ride, there is the 201/202 as well as the fifteen minute 512. I would hope that they are timed to run opposite each other (although it would be difficult to keep those buses in sync). But 7.5 headways from the park and ride lot (give or take) is still very good.

      But if you are a ways form the parking lot, then you depend on the 201/202. I suppose you might end up taking the 109 to the park and ride (figuring you might catch the 512) but the 109 is so infrequent that the odds of you doing that are pretty low.

      Fifteen minutes service along Ash Way itself seems OK. It isn’t great, but it isn’t terrible either. It is pretty much the standard in Seattle now, despite many areas having a lot more density than Ash Way. Much of Snohomish County continues to struggle with worse transit (Downtown Edmonds seems underserved now). I think the planners could do better, but there is only so much they can do. The county is very large and hard to serve (unless they raised a lot more money which is unlikely).

      This gets to your other point. The middle of Ash Way (the street) is connected to two different Swift lines. The Orange Line looks good for getting to the college, while the Green Line covers a handful of other places. But for much of SR 99, you are looking at 3-seat ride. It is tough to create alternatives without overlapping other routes, which in turn means buses run less often.

5. Should be Richmond Beach/Highlands not Richland Beach/Highlands

   Fixed. Thanks. Probably the second most common typo in the area. The first is writing “Montlake Terrace” instead of “Mountlake Terrace”. Sometimes I will mistype “Capital Hill”, but I usually catch myself right away. In contrast I often have to double check complement/compliment.

   2). How one route with one route number can have two distinct termini is beyond me. It makes it extremely difficult for a casual or ESL passenger to know which bus they are on and which terminus they are going to.

   Agreed. Metro used to do that a lot more than they do know. But it is still an issue here and there. The 3/4 is the worst (there are several combinations). In this case it is actually fairly simple. One bus goes to Richmond Beach. The other goes to Richmond Highlands. Name the one that goes to the beach the 348 and the other one the 347. Had they done that they wouldn’t have had to change the bus signs in Seattle.

   3). The every other terminus for the #348 doesn’t actually serve Richmond Beach Park. Instead it serves The Cabin Tavern. I’ve never been there, but it must be nice if it gets its own bus route.

   It doesn’t actually go to the tavern, but it does get close. The main thing it does there is turn around. There are alternatives, but they aren’t as good. But you are right, you would have to walk a ways to the park. 20th is probably the shortest option (https://maps.app.goo.gl/SEZ7DmXhzLAh3iQr7).

   4). Last I knew you couldn’t access the park from Richmond Beach Dr without walking on the railroad tracks. This is to be discouraged.

   It looks like you can cross 195th Court and then 27th to get to the beach (https://maps.app.goo.gl/jy5ixBAvAmS9tLgS8). You can’t do it in a car (no parking). There is a sign saying “No Public Beach Access” (https://maps.app.goo.gl/HyNyeY9cQtSwQfqZ8). But if you walk to the end of the road it looks fine (https://maps.app.goo.gl/GUaECEX3rpBJQw3m9). Then again, maybe they put up a fence. Without a fence you would be on public land (the street) until you got onto the beach. The law is a bit fuzzy on whether you can walk across a private beach (https://www.pugetsoundinstitute.org/does-the-public-have-a-right-to-walk-across-a-private-beach-the-answer-is-still-unresolved/). In this case I don’t think you are walking across a private beach at all. It would not surprise me if folks there don’t mind people walking there, but don’t want anyone to drive there. My guess is you could walk across the bridge and stay to the east (next to BNSF land) until you get to the beach and just keep going.

   The main thing you have to be aware of it the tides. Here is a picture from the park showing the beach completely submerged (https://maps.app.goo.gl/9LnUFymjQ4vsuCabA). At that point you should definitely turn around (rather than walk by the railroad tracks or across the rocks). But if the tide is out it would probably work. That would be like the walk from Carkeek to Golden Gardens (it only works when the tide is out). In this case I would probably explore it as a loop. Take the bus to 196th & 20th. Walk to the park and through the park to the beach. Then walk north along the beach and see if you can reach the road. If not, just turn around.

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