Survey: Naming the infill Link station at 130th Street

117 Replies to “Survey: Naming the infill Link station at 130th Street”

1. I have been wondering about the renaming effort.

   I like names that are clearly unique yet short. There are many “lakes” already.

   So I’d say just choose simply Pinehurst and call it a day.

   Adding 130th would maybe be useful since the Shoreline stations also reference numbered streets. But I personally don’t think it matters.

   1. My first choice would be “130th”, but that wasn’t an option. “Pinehurst” is fine. No, it isn’t in the middle of Pinehurst — whatever. “Pinehurst/Haller Lake” (which is more geographically accurate) is too long. “Haller Lake” isn’t even an option.

   2. I’m a resident of the north end.
      I use 130th and the freeway often. Pinehurst/130 St are the most descriptive and specific. People will learn if unfamiliar.
      I take the light rail a lot. When first using it to go to the airport I had never heard of Angle Lake but learned.

   3. Using the number 130th is useful and consistent with Shoreline South / 148th and Shoreline North / 185th. I’m going with Pinehurst / 130th St.

      I would caution against overselling Haller Lake. It is tiny, on the other side of I-5, its shoreline is almost entirely private, and its only public access is on the west. We don’t promote Green Lake which is a few blocks from the Roosevelt Station, 100% public and the most popular park in the state as well as the name of a populous neighborhood. I wouldn’t toot our horns too loudly about Haller Lake.

      1. The lake itself is small, but deep. It is a decent lake for swimming in.

         The Haller Lake neighborhood has a long history, but it never really got big. The first settlement was in 1869. The area around the lake was platted and houses were added in 1905. The Community Club originated in 1921. As this put it: Were it not for the physical and psychological presence of the freeway, the neighborhood would likely claim the Jackson Park golf course as its own.

         Meanwhile, Pinehurst didn’t get platted until after the country club was built. It has several small retail areas, but I would consider the area around Pinehurst Pub to be the center of the neighborhood. From there it is a short walk to the various Ethiopian/Eritrean restaurants that have come to define it (along with the school, the main park, lots of other interesting restaurants and a lot of places to get your hair cut).

         Which basically means that the station is in no-mans land. Because of the freeway, it is not really Haller Lake. Because it so far west, it is not really Pinehurst. It could be considered “north Northgate”. According to Wikipedia, the neighborhood surrounding the park is sometimes referred to as Jackson Park. But calling it “North Northgate” or “Jackson Park” would be really confusing. Unlike “Roosevelt” or “U-District” there is no obvious neighborhood name. The choice is rather arbitrary (as are the 148th and 185th stations). I like Al’s idea (Northacres). It is the closest landmark (other than Jackson Park). But ultimately it really doesn’t matter — as long as it doesn’t cause confusion. Calling it “Pinehurst” even though it is at best at the edge of Pinehurst is fine. It is like “University of Washington Station”. It really isn’t the heart of the UW. It is on the edge of it. Plenty of people get off at the U-District Station and walk to campus. A more meaningful name would be “Husky Stadium”. But it doesn’t matter (mainly because nothing else is called “UW Station”).

      2. pinehurst is slightly far, but it’s not that far away. After some upzonings and new apartments built it’ll just expand to include the area near the light rail station as well.

      3. pinehurst is slightly far, but it’s not that far away. After some upzonings and new apartments built it’ll just expand to include the area near the light rail station as well.

         Sure, but you could say the same thing about Northgate and Haller Lake. It is basically in between neighborhoods. It is essentially north Northgate, east Haller Lake, northwest Pinehurst or south Jackson Park.

         I would say the only difference is that Haller Lake (the neighborhood) isn’t developed. The community center is isolated. The only real center of development is up by 135th & Roosevelt. There is a church there called “Haller Lake United Methodist” so obviously they consider that Haller Lake. if you consider that to be the center of the neighborhood then it is much closer (and contiguous) to development that will occur with the station. Of course that neighborhood is not close to the lake, which makes it a bit weird.

         Meanwhile, the closest thing to the park named “Northgate” is Northgate Early Learning Center at 123rd & Fifth. I’m pretty sure there is nothing called Pinehurst that is that close. Pinehurst Pub, Pocket Park, Playground and Laundromat are all east of 12th.

         But neighborhood names are fuzzy. If they name it Pinehurst it basically puts it on the map. People living close to the station will stop calling the area “Jackson Park” or “the north end of Northgate” but Pinehurst instead.

      4. I lived on Haller Lake for three months when we first came to Seattle in 1972, and later I recognized it seeing the early-morning 16 had that as its terminus, but I never knew there was a community center or anything other than houses in the neighborhood. Some definitions of “Haller Lake” or “Northgate” go straight north to 145th, but I wouldn’t think of it as far east as Jackson Park golf course.

      5. “the closest thing to the park named “Northgate” is Northgate Early Learning Center at 123rd & Fifth”

         Isn’t Hubbard Homestead park at 5th & 112th more or less Northgate park? I don’t see a park at 5th & 123rd on Google Maps. There’s a Northacres Park west of I-5. I never knew about that one until it was mentioned here.

      6. > Sure, but you could say the same thing about Northgate and Haller Lake. It is basically in between neighborhoods. It is essentially north Northgate, east Haller Lake, northwest Pinehurst or south Jackson Park.

         Are we looking at the same maps? To Roosevelt way where the pinehurst apartments are is only 2000 ft, haller lake (ingraham high school I guess) is like 3500 ft away. Jackson park is next door but there’s no density it’s a park. Northgate is over a mile away.

      7. I guess if you use 15th Ave as the distance for pinehurst it’d be half a mile instead, but haller lake still isn’t closer and is beyond i5. Northgate is still a mile away. I’d still stick with pinehurst

      8. Oops. Somehow I put in the wrong word in my comment. It should read:

         Meanwhile, the closest thing to the station named “Northgate” is Northgate Early Learning Center at 123rd & Fifth.

         I put the word “park” instead of “station”. Sorry about the confusion.

         Yes, you are right Mike — Hubbard Park would probably be the closest thing to a Northgate Park. I think that area used to be a big park and ride. I also think they are adding a small park inside the mall.

         Are we looking at the same maps? To Roosevelt way where the pinehurst apartments are is only 2000 ft, haller lake (ingraham high school I guess) is like 3500 ft away.

         The apartments on Roosevelt (that I think you are referring to) tend to have the word “Roosevelt” in them, or something else entirely (e. g. “Town and Country”). Of course calling it “Roosevelt” anything would be really confusing. The closest apartment (to the station) I can find with the word “Pinehurst” in it is “Pinehurst East”. It is an 18 minute walk according to Google (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Gsa2YrxoXPceLusa6). As the crow flies, it is 3,600 feet. From the station to the middle of Haller Lake itself is 2,800 feet. To Northgate Early Learning Center it is 2,000 feet. To Haller Lake Pea Patch it is 1,300 feet. This means that if you are basing it on things named on the relevant neighborhoods, the closest area is Haller Lake, followed by Northgate, followed by Pinehurst (so far as I can tell).

         But again, I don’t think it matters. Even if most people wouldn’t call that area “Pinehurst” now, they will if they name the station after it. The number of areas named “Mount Baker” have probably crept westward after they named the station that.

2. Taxpayers Station to say thank you to the Taxpayers funding Sound Transit.

   1. But if we’re doing it that way, we should rename every other station too!

      “Taxpayers / Shoreline South / 148th”
      “Taxpayers / 130th”
      “Taxpayers / Northgate”
      etc., etc.

      1. And that’s fine with me. Remind the people constantly who actually pays the bills and there are no free rides.

      2. Gotta name every street that too. Taxpayers… Interstate 5, Taxpayers… 2nd Avenue, Taxpayers… Pike Street

      3. I remember growing up back in the NY metropolitan area that all sorts of expressways were named. Usually to honor important people; I-87 – the “Major Deagan” (in the NYC area), the Van Wyck Expressway, etc.

         I like the Taxpayer idea, but it needs some variation:
         I-405 could be the “Thank you everyone else for paying for my unfettered commute Highway”

         Okay, that’s a bit cumbersome, but it would remind everyone that nothing is free.

3. “A final pedantic point to note is that the Shoreline stations don’t include the “St.” suffix in the station name”

   That didn’t stop ST from having “Bellevue Downtown”, “Downtown Redmond”, and “Lynnwood City Center”.

4. “This is the least useful name under consideration, and specifically disowns every neighborhood around the station. It’s clearly an effort to avoid the favoring any specific neighborhood,”

   I don’t know if that’s the reason. I’m curious how ST came up with such a lame name or who suggested it to them. North Seattle is everything from the Ship Canal to 145th and is anchored by U-District Station three stations away (or four miles). It would be like naming BelRed station “Eastside”.

   1. Yeah it seems silly that ST would even have “North Seattle” be a finalist. No other Seattle station has the actual name “Seattle” in it.

      I’m surprised that Northacres wasn’t proposed. That park is really close to the station.

      Finally, I’ll just note that Seattle has an opportunity to rebrand and reconceptualize the neighborhood by creating a whole new brand name. While maybe not appropriate at this station, it’s just something I mention in general. I like names like Marymoor Village for this reason. This village does not exist today.

      1. I hadn’t considered “Northacres” but that would have been a good choice. It is probably the best option from a geographical standpoint — it is the closest landmark. As it is, “Pinehurst” is short. So while few know what it means (and it is nowhere near the center of the neighborhood) it is good enough.

      2. I wrote in North Acres. All the schools and neighborhoods in the vicinity use it, especially dog owners.

         In general I think it’s a bad idea to use numbered streets. There are “130th’s” all over the region, both streets and avenues.

         The Shoreline naming effort was a failure of imagination IMO. There are no other street names in the system now that symphony has been implemented.

   2. My guess is that they didn’t want to call it just “130th”. This is a mistake (just like they should have called other stations by their cross streets). But once they required some sort of additional name, “North Seattle” is not the worst thing in the world. It is, after all, in North Seattle. Technically it is in Pinehurst but it is nowhere near the commercial center of Pinehurst (which itself is a secondary neighborhood). I’m sure the vast majority of people who live near there would refer to the station location as “North Seattle” or maybe “130th next to the freeway” or even “next to the freeway about half way between Lake City and Bitter Lake”. (I usually describe Pinehurst as being half way between Northgate and Lake City).

      But the inability of ST to even consider “130th” a valid option goes back to the fundamental problem with the names: They are way too long. The stations north of Capitol Hill should be as follows:

      45th
      65th
      Northgate
      130th
      148th (or 145th)
      185th
      Mountlake Terrace
      Lynnwood

      That’s it. So simple.

      If we someday create a situation where there is some ambiguity then we deal with it then. For example if Bellevue has a station that it also wants to name 130th then the obvious possibility is “130th Bellevue”. Instead we are adding unnecessary verbiage that simply add to the confusion. The names are so long that they have to use tiny print which makes them harder to read.

      1. The RossB list is good. But ST will not rename them all.
         130th Street is simple and descriptive. (ST already renamed the 2 Line station on 130th Avenue NE, Bel-Red).
         Another candidate not listed: Bitterlake/Lake City. This pair is larger.

      2. Nope. Which numbered street? Which city? Which neighborhood? Numbered streets are not places. They are rights of way, and they are a dime a dozen.

      3. Which numbered street? Which city? Which neighborhood?

         Station names don’t have to tell riders exactly where they are. They are just names. It is why New York has used numbered streets for decades.

         Numbered streets are not places.

         Uh, they actually are. Give my regards to Broadway. Tell all the gang at Forty Second Street that I will soon be there. My posse is on Broadway. On Martin Luther King, the set looks kinda dead. In Penny Lane, there is a barber showing photographs. (You get the idea).

         If you get off the train at 45th Street, where are you? 45th. But where is the cross street — what county are you in — what is the latitude and longitude? Uh, it doesn’t really matter. There is only one station named 45th and it is right there, on 45th. (Or there could be, if we weren’t so verbose with the names.)

      4. I agree with another engineer. If I board a future northbound Link train, and see that the next stop after Northgate is 130th, how am I supposed to know what that means or where it is? Does that mean 130th in Tacoma? 130th in Bellevue? 130th is used all over the world. The 130th station after Northgate could be anywhere!

5. “Pinehurst” was my existing choice and I dislike street-number stations. But soon after I saw “Pinehurst/130th” I started warming to it. It would continue the scheme of the adjacent stations so they wouldn’t look so anomalous. And it would pave the way for renaming the next three stations to U-District/45th, Roosevelt/65th, and Northgate/100th as some prefer.

   But Shoreline North/148th really needs to be renamed to Shoreline North/145th. The shops and housing and east-west travel and the street people know are 145th, not 148th. It’s like when Metro calls the westbound Pine Street stop between 3rd and 4th “4th Avenue” instead of “3rd Avenue”, or the 12’s former stop “Broadway Ct” instead of “Broadway”, or the G station “Boyleston Ave” instead of “Broadway”. Broadway is where people go and what they know and where they transfer, not these minor adjacent streets.

   1. I know what you mean about renaming it Shoreline South / 145th station but the “148th” brand is going to get a big boost with the opening of the 148th St. pedestrian-bicycle bridge:

      https://www.shorelinewa.gov/government/projects-initiatives/148th-street-pedestrian-bicycle-bridge

      I went up there recently and walked around and it was noticeable walk to 145th. It looks closer when you go by on I-5. I walked to 130th and that took some time, longer because of bad pedestrian infrastructure and construction, but far enough away, it seemed, to deserve another station.

6. Just get it up and running as soon as possible forget naming it just called it 130th

   1. The naming is not delaying it; it’s built into the timeline. All Link stations go through a months-long public process to choose a final name.

7. Either Pinehurst or or 130th is fine.

   This is the station I care about the most as it would enable an Amtrak & Link visit from Portland to my family of choice in Seattle which is walking distance from the station since bikes on Amtrak are not always easy.

8. Where most relevant, TriMet almost always includes the street name, as in their experience it helps orient riders:
   https://trimet.org/maps/img/railsystem.png?v=aug2024

   Eg: even stuff like Lloyd Center or Hollywood Transit Center also get a street name.

   Also, if the PA system goes bad and the operator has to announce every stop, you want the station name to be non-cumbersome for them to say rapidly.

   Portland’s last local streetcars ran in 1950, and the last passenger service on the longer distance lines ended in 1958. When they opened the first MAX line, some of the people involved remembered well how things worked on the old lines (including a few MAX operators that originally hired on with Portland Traction Company as what were then called motormen). You could always tell the old Portland Traction Company people when they operated the bus routes, as they’d call out every cross street stop with a cadence that sounded like it was out of the 1920s, and quite likely was.

   Long, cumbersome station names wouldn’t work for that, so I think TriMet had an institutional preference for simple station names early on.

   1. North Northgate – accurate while maximizing potential confusion and disgust.

      1. (2xNorth)gate

   2. Yup, compare this with RTD rail which has a few egrigiously long double barreled names

      – 60th & Sheridan–Arvada Gold Strike
      – 48th & Brighton / National Western Center
      – 40th Ave & Airport Blvd–Gateway Park
      – Jefferson County Government Center–Golden

9. I agree with Nathan: Pinehurst/130th, but without the “St” so that it’s like Shoreline North and South.

10. Pinehurst is fine and honestly the best choice

    – Short
    – Simple
    – Direct and to the point
    – Relates geographically to area
    – Isn’t double barreled (I’ve seen agencies outside Seattle do this to awful results)

    It’s why I’m not a fan of Shoreline North/South. Would’ve preferred Ballinger and Ridgecrest as they’re more interesting names than Shoreline North/South with a street name attached. Same with Kent-Des Moines, Highline would’ve been great as it relates to the college but also to being at the top of the hill all around as you can see the sound in the distance.

    1. So station names should be entertaining first, even to naming neighborhoods only a few residents have ever heard so-named and which appear on no maps as a nrighborhood name?

       Not to mention that Lake Ballinger is in the next county. “North City” would probably be well-enough known for Shoreline North as would “Highline”.

       1. naming neighborhoods only a few residents have ever heard

          … doesn’t matter. Sure, ideally you name it after a landmark or a neighborhood that everyone has heard of. But ultimately what you want is a name that is simple, not confused with other names and ideally gives you a clue as to how close you are to your station. That is why I think street names by themselves (e. g. “130th”) is ideal. I don’t need to know whether 148th is in Shoreline or Seattle (or what part of Shoreline it is in). Nor do I need to know what the neighborhood is called. I only need to know that “148th” is different than every other station, and the one I will use.

          That is because no one gets on the train and thinks “OK, I’m visiting Shoreline today. Oh, look at that — there are two stations there. I think I’ll take the one in South Shoreline. I’m pretty sure my friend lives in South Shoreline, not North Shoreline.”

          Instead they look at a map and go “OK, I have to take that station.” It could be called “Sassafras” for all I care. I would then make sure to get off at “Sassafras” station. While on the train I would look at the map as well as the stations to make sure that I was approaching “Sassafras Station” instead of heading away from it. Eventually I might ask someone “Hey, how come the station is called ‘Sassafras'”, but most people don’t really care.

          It is like the symbols they use in very large parking garages to help people remember where they parked. They parked at “Hippo” level. It has no particular meaning, really — but does the job.

          Again, there are exceptions. Some of the stations (e. g. “SeaTac Airport”) are major landmarks. But most aren’t. Might as well name them after unknown neighborhoods or cross streets. In this case using cross streets would both keep it simple *and* create a pattern that is useful. Instead we have names like royalty (the Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron of Renfrew, Lord of the Isles, and Prince and Great Steward of Scotland Station).

       2. “OK, I’m visiting Shoreline today. Oh, look at that — there are two stations there. I think I’ll take the one in South Shoreline”

          That’s where you have a station that’s just simply “Shoreline” closest to the center. You’re going to Shoreline and you don’t know more specifically: get off at Shoreline and it will probably be within walking distance or there will be buses in all directions.

       3. You’re going to Shoreline and you don’t know more specifically:

          Except no one does that. That is just not how people travel. They figure out which station is closest to their destination (by looking at a map) or they get complete directions using an app (typically on their phone). This is why the names could be completely arbitrary and it would be fine. The main thing you want is to differentiate it from other stations. You don’t want a station called “Thomas” and another one called “Tom”. But “Tom”, “Dick” and “Harry” are all decent station names.

       4. Distinctiveness is important in a way as there is some level of importance on standing out amongst the blur of names, its also good to be using neighborhood names because then we are highlighting whete people live and work instead of just saying “130th” which doesn’t say a lot about the neighborhood other than where it is and how far away it is from Seattle.

          Civic pride is important in a way, we know many people in Seattle who referr to the neighborhood they live in than cross streets.

          “Oh I live in Wallingford”

          “I go to work in SLU”

          “My favorite place for Thai is in Phinney Ridge”

          Etc etc etc

          In many ways I’m happy ST has generally avoided adding street numbers because we have so many streets with numbers and the system isn’t exactly an NYC like subway where that information is pretty useful as the subway in NYC does act like a bus in a way with so many stations close together compared to here.

          Or honestly generic names for that matter, I wish East Main was Surrey Downs instead because it rolls off the tongue better than East Main because that could mean anywhere in the Seattle metro.

          North City or Echo Lake would be fine

       5. Distinctiveness is important in a way as there is some level of importance on standing out amongst the blur of names, its also good to be using neighborhood names because then we are highlighting where people live and work instead of just saying “130th”

          Except in this case — in a lot of cases — that is all it is. It is 130th. The same goes for 148th. And 185th. These are just stops. Some of them are close to real neighborhoods, some of them aren’t. Pinehurst is a real neighborhood, but it is a ways away. The idea that the station name somehow creates a new sense of identity is silly. Either it has it or it doesn’t.

          New York has hundreds of station names. But there is no “Chelsea”. No “Greenwich Village”. There are stations in those neighborhoods, but they aren’t called that. Does that somehow diminish those neighborhoods? Of course not.

          Link should not be a promotional tool. It shouldn’t be designed to show off a neighborhood — or a city — as a way of saying “it has arrived”. Yet so often that is exactly what people have in mind when naming the stations. The two stations in Shoreline have the word “Shoreline” in them as a way to say “Hey, look at us — we have a fancy light rail system”. Leaving them out would be the sensible thing do — the obvious thing to do — but the civic leaders would have none of that. Lynnwood has “City Center” as a way to compete with cities like Bellevue. It basically screams “Hey everyone — we aren’t a suburb with arbitrary borders — we have a real center — a real city center — and here it is”. It is silly.

       6. I agree with you Zach, I prefer neighborhood names over street names.

    2. “Ridgecrest” has a nice ring to it, but it belongs to Shoreline and would be for a station further north.

11. The proposed names do not reflect the geography of the station area. “Jackson Park” is literally visible to all riders from the station as well as riders going north, and is a huge landmark for the surrounding area. Case in point, look at any Google map for the area and its the biggest green spot for miles. Highlighting the park as the name of the station aligns with City and community values for parks for recreation and equitable access to green space for all. I’ve heard that SPD is going to soon rename the park to avoid connotations to a certain slaveholder president, so they should do that now and align the park name change with the opening of the station and it can be an amazing 2-for-1 marketing campaign for the community!

    1. The 148th station is actually closer to Jackson park. It would cause unnecessary confusion.

       130th is the obvious choice. Utility first. Branding… is for Realtors, not transit agencies.

       1. Shades of Mill Creek.

12. Call me a diehard romantic when it comes to this, but having traveled on other cities subway systems both internationally and domestic, I prefer naming a few stations after prominent but now deceased citizens of the city.

    How about:
    Jimi Hendrix
    Royal Brougham
    Emmitt Watson
    Ivar Haglund
    Kurt Cobain

    Just a thought

    1. Or whole lines. Instead of Stride 3, the Octavia Butler Express. I could get behind it.

    2. Scoop Jackson Station would work with it being so close to Jackson Park.

       1. There has been talk of renaming the park. It is likely they would name it after a different Jackson (just like renamed the county after MLK). Scoop Jackson would work for me. As far as the station goes, my guess is Everett would want first dibs for naming a station after him.

       2. RossB: along similar lines, there is also talk of renaming Mt. Rainier. I think this is a good idea: instead of honoring a British naval officer who fought against the U.S. in the Revolutionary War, we should name the peak for a description of the local weather: “Mt. Rainier.”

       3. Har har

       4. While Judkins Park might be renamed, Jimi Hendrix Park is here to stay. His visage is all over the station. Why not “Jimi Hendrix Park Station”?

       5. the station is named after the neighorhood named “Judkins Park” not the park directly.

13. North Northgate – accurate while maximizing potential confusion and disgust.

14. It’s probably too late, but what about renaming 148th to “Ridgecrest” and 130th to “Shoreline South”…?

    1. Why should a station in Seattle be named Shoreline South?

15. When I asked how the name Lynnwood City Center was chosen, the comment section said that’s what Lynnwood city officials wanted the name to be.

    1. Which makes sense. Ultimately it is a tiny decision, but it is a good example of how things operate. Rather than follow some sort of standard (or talk to someone about guidelines when it comes to naming stations) they asked public officials (who have no idea). Thus they came up with needlessly long names. Instead of just “Lynnwood” it is “Lynnwood City Center”. It is basically marketing.

       1. So then is the survey a charade, and Sound Transit will ultimately name the infill station whatever the City of Seattle tells them to name it?

       2. It probably has an influence, simply because most Seattle officials don’t care that much. Even the city council member who represents the area (Cathy Moore) probably doesn’t care that much what you call it. She definitely wants it built as soon as possible (we all do) but it isn’t meant to promote the area. In contrast Lynnwood Station was a really big deal to the officials in Lynnwood.

16. Call it The Speed Bump.

    Just one more pointless station to piss riders from up north off with.

    1. It’s not an express bus, it’s a metro system

       1. That’s metaphorically speaking, with each station stop making the trip a little more annoying. How many stops from Everett to the Airport will it make?

       2. There’s also the 220 sw st provisional (unfunded) station

       3. How many stops from Everett to the Airport will it make?

          Not as many as it should. But then again it shouldn’t go to Everett. If we were doing it right we would have a lot more stations and it wouldn’t be that long.

       4. My guess is you don’t live any distance north of 130th.

       5. “That’s metaphorically speaking, with each station stop making the trip a little more annoying”

          You’re making a mountain out of a mole hill here.

       6. My guess is you don’t live any distance north of 130th.

          No, but I used to. But that is beside the fact. I would feel the same way regardless.

          My guess is don’t understand how metros work. What you consider a flaw is actually a feature. In fact, it is the essential aspect of a metro. A successful metro is not like an express bus, or even commuter rail. It does not consist of everyone heading one direction. It consists of dozens if not hundreds of trips along the corridor. That is it’s strength. That is it’s reason for being. If there aren’t trip combinations along the corridor than it is an argument that you’ve gone too far and should have relied on express buses instead.

          I don’t think you get it. Our system right now extends very far from the center of the city — about as far as much larger systems like those in New York, Paris and London. The big weakness — the major difference — is that we don’t have enough stations. It is quite reasonable (and quite common) to have a fairly short metro. But what is not a smart move is to have such large gaps between stations. This violates every principle that has been learned over decades of mass-transit engineering.

          There are a number of reasons why the case for this station is actually stronger than the case for Lynnwood Link.

          1) Density: Population density drops off at the city border (quite quickly). This effects ridership.
          2) Proximity: The closer things are, the more riders you attract.
          3) More Trip Combinations: There are a lot more trip combinations within the urban core. In contrast, trips from the suburbs almost entirely include a stop in the city. For example few in Lynnwood would be heartbroken if the train skipped Mountlake Terrace. In contrast the whole reason Northgate Link even makes sense is because it includes stops like Roosevelt, the UW and Capitol Hill. It is the only thing that makes it better than the 41. Thus by adding more stations within the city you have a much stronger network effect (than adding stations in distant locations).
          4) Speed: Express buses from the suburbs into the city tend to be fast. In contrast, buses within the urban core tend to be slow. The 512 could get from Lynnwood to downtown very quickly in the middle of the day. In contrast it would take a very long time to get from UW to Capitol Hill on a bus.
          5) Network. The main reason the station is being added is to improve the *urban* network — where most of the riders come from. They do so for the reasons mentioned. Areas like Lake City and Bitter Lake are dense. They aren’t that far from the major destinations, which means the total trip time (including the bus trip) is not that long.
          6) Cost. Adding this station is fairly cheap. Adding Lynnwood Link was not.

          Again, you have it backwards. We could have easily built a much smaller system with a lot more stations that would have been way more cost effective. It would have gotten more riders and way more riders per mile. It would have served way more places and been more useful to those in the city and in the suburbs. Express buses from the suburbs could have connected riders to the system with much better express service.

          I really have no problem with Lynnwood Link. It is fine. But it is absurd to think that we should have fewer stations, not more. If you didn’t want a metro, then you should have pushed for express buses instead.

       7. Yawn.

       8. Burp.

       9. I think it’s 30 stops to SeaTac from Everett if Graham is also counted as well as the provisional station at 99/Airport Road in Snohomish. 31 if both Graham and BAR are added.

          And if the transfer is ultimately required there is a multi-level transfer that may be added on top as well. But even though ST says it’s done by 2039 I think it’s opening is delayed at least 5-15 more years due to money and then difficulty.

       10. I guess in the future when the light rail reaches everett we should have the train skip lynnwood as well /s

    2. It would be really fast if it didn’t make any stops.

    3. There is a much stronger argument for simply ending Link at 148th (with a station at 130th) then there is going all the way to Lynnwood. It is bizarre to me that people just don’t understand how metros work.

       1. There’s clearly a big demand for Link to Lynnwood. I think it’s great it goes that far…though the value of going north from there seems dubious.

       2. I have no problem with Lynnwood Link. I’m just saying that you could easily make the case – based on the lack of network effect, geography, density and cost — for simply ending at 145th. You would have to make an express bus connection similar to the one at Lynnwood Link. But the buses that feed it from various directions could still do so (they would just have to spend more time on the freeway). You would lose very little in the process. There just aren’t a lot of people going from 148th to Mountlake Terrace or 185th to Lynnwood.

       3. Actually 155th would have been better than 148th. That way connecting buses avoid freeway traffic.

       4. Ah 155th … that brings back memories. 130th/155th was always the right answer…

    4. If it’s not faster than walking then why use it.

17. Let’s reuse some signage and just call it University Street.

18. Shoreline. Let’s name three in a row Shoreline.

    1. How about we name it University Street? I heard that name has become available!

       Seriously… The City is proposing a new neighborhood center surrounding the 130th St. station which they are referring to as the Pinehurst – Haller Lake Urban Center. Haller Lake is on the west side of I-5 near Bitter Lake, which is bigger, more accessible and better known by comparison. Pinehurst and the station are on the east. 130th is the street everyone knows because that’s where the I-5 ramps are.

       I would go with Pinehurst / 130th. Here’s the “One Seattle” draft rezone that includes maps for Pinehurst and the new station area.

       https://one-seattle-plan-zoning-implementation-seattlecitygis.hub.arcgis.com/pages/zoning-map

19. Sent it to route 28X to N shoreline 185th or N 145th St so I don’t know why route 28 is still cutting back to Carkeek Park but also I don’t know what about the route 26X.

    1. I don’t think you meant to post your comment here.

20. I wanted to see what East Link (in Bellevue) numbered stations were originally called, so I checked an old STB Post. The “temporary working name” for 120th was “120th.” For 130th it was “130th.” After public/city input, the recommended name for 120th changed to Spring District/120th. The recommended name for 130th changed to Bel-Red/130th. But, as everyone knows, that’s not the names of the stations today. They eventually dropped the numbers, and today the stations are just called Spring District and BelRed.

    1. The funny one is the U-District Station. The working name was “Brooklyn” because of the street. So when they commissioned the artwork, the artist made it look like Brooklyn. (I think they did an excellent job — it is one of my favorites.) But then they changed the name of the station to “U-District”, which made the artwork abstract. Not that the art has to look like station name, but it would have been a nice bonus.

       1. My niece from Maui is named Brooklyn, and when she and her mother were visiting colleges, we used a UW visit to experience Link. She of course posed for a picture in front of the station and a Brooklyn street sign.

          BTW, they absolutely loved Link. Their island has virtually no public transportation, so experiencing a train besides New York’s was exciting for them. Niece: “You mean, the train went under that river next to Husky Stadium?!” My sister: “You mean, CAPITOL HILL has a subway station?!”

    2. That’s interesting about Brooklyn and the art. I didn’t know that.

       120th becoming Spring District/120th, then becoming Spring District, remind me that even if ST settles on “Pinehurst/130th,” it doesn’t mean that’s the station’s permanent name. It might be shortened to Pinehurst later.

    3. Brooklyn was the original placeholder name because of the street, but the neighborhood was also called Brooklyn in the early 20th century, so some people wanted it for that.

21. Perhaps Pinehaller, or Neithernor. Or for the perturbed Northgate riders…AnotherDamnedStationNorthofNorthgate…

    1. The Green Turtoise, The Last Option or The 60 Minute Uber Discount

22. Just “Pinehurst” is the cleanest, simplest way.

    Adding the street doesn’t make sense for a few stations… Why not do it for all then…

    It kinda made sense for shoreline because you just called them “N Shoreline” and “S Shoreline” which doesn’t specify an area… If you had used landmark names instead that would’ve been better.

    Also numbering falls flat as soon as you cross county lines as it’ll just add to the confusion.

    1. Be thankful we’re not at the Wasatch Front.

       1. Yeah it gets wacky in SLC, goes up to the 15000s down in Bluffdale. It’s appearantly a numbering system the oldest streets that’s historically derived from the distance the street is from Temple Square in SLC. Newer streets just abandoned that idea and instead use more normal(ish) street names. With some funny ones like Freedom Point Way or Coyote Gulch Way.

          If you want interesting street naming conventions, Denver is another one. It uses an alphabet format for most N-S streets.

          Like for instance where I lived in Denver (lived east of Colorado Blvd) the streets would go

          Albion, Ash, Bellaire, Birch, Clermont, Cherry, Dexter, Dahlia, Eudora, Elm, Fairfax, Forest, Glencoe, Grape, Houston, Holly, Ivanhoe

          That’s actually useful navigating Denver by bus or car as you can generally follow the street names and are memorable so if you miss it you know you’ve gone too far. Was helpful for my parents navigating when they visited me.

       2. I lived in Oklahoma City and it is the best for navigation. With just a street address you would immediately know which quadrant of the city you were in (or needed to go) as most street names include NW/NE/SW/SE

    2. I think it makes sense to have the numbers or the name, but not both. Since we can’t just call it “130th” we should just call it “Pinehurst”.

       Yes, the numbers change once you leave the county. Likewise they could create confusion in other parts of the county. But there is a simple solution for that — don’t use them in those other areas. Just because you use numbers in some areas doesn’t mean you use them everywhere. There really is no need to have numbers for Snohomish County — it just doesn’t make sense for Mountlake Terrace or Lynnwood. I could see “220th” but as luck would have it, this is still a bigger number than any in King County. Again you manage to avoid confusion. As long as you avoid calling stations “164th” or “128th” you are OK (“Ash Way” and “Mariner” are better names).

       Having numbers in the north end — and only the north end — would have not only led to smaller names (a big bonus) but a better understanding of where you are while riding the train. If you are trying to get to “185th” and you see “45th” then “65th” you know you got on the right train going the right direction. As you see “130th” you figure you are getting close — time to put away the headphones and pay attention to the station announcements.

23. There’s way too many stations already with the name St. Also stop naming a station after a number. Be like Boston.

24. I know it was mentioned how BelRed and Spring Dustrict lost their street numbering. I also noticed that Link trains just say “Lynnwood” and not “Lynnwood City Center”. So it seems that in practice ST finds brief names more favorable.

    Some other rail cities also put the address coordinates in small fonts below station names . (Note that there is another numbered street for this station — 5th Ave NE).

    It’s a concern I have about broad names. Someone may not realize how far Aurora is from Link in Shoreline for example.

    So maybe just Pinehurst is best — with 13000 N and 500 E in small font on some station signs. That could then set ST up to eventually standardize address coordinates across the system for all stations.

    And I’m not going to touch Seattle’s confusing multiple grid numbering system!

    1. Except when you ask people why the infill station was necessary, of those who believe the station was necessary, at the top of the list are two population centers: Lake City and Bitter Lake (130th & Aurora). A case could be made to name it after the two places where the majority of infill station users will actually be going, and the reason the station was built. Unfortunately, those two places are both two-word names, and would not make a very good hyphenated station name.

       1. Btter Lake City.
          Because they always get screwed by transit agencies.

25. North by Northwestgate

26. Maybe it should be called ” The ridiculous neighborhood station without parking”
    And every body will know which one it is.

    1. Not every station needs parking

       1. If it’s in a location that is really far from a central transportation station, no significant community center and basically serves only people with in a few blocks from the station it doesn’t serve the community to its potential. It’s a dead station serving a minimal set of commuters. How much did we pay for this station? Are you going to walk in the wet Seattle weather to get there? Stations downtown make sense not to have parking but urban stations don’t. You should ask how this station was conceptualized and why this station was approved to be built. We are all paying for this. Don’t get me wrong I love the line but stations need to serve the community properly.

       2. @John Doe

          You are severely underestimate how much it cost to build the massive parking garage at Lynnwood and at 185th. It cost a couple hundred million.

          > How much did we pay for this station?

          It cost around 240 million dollars. Once you build the elevated rail and make sure that section is straight and level, the station itself doesn’t cost that much.

          > If it’s in a location that is really far from a central transportation station, no significant community center

          I argue the line should have been built on aurora where it’d be closer to people, but it’s already been built along the freeway corridor instead.

          Are we just going to build massive parking garages at every light rail station? The point of transit is to bring transit riders to an actual destination not connecting garages to another garage.

       3. “If it’s in a location that is really far from a central transportation station”
          Northgate is nearby

          “no significant community center and basically serves only people with in a few blocks from the station it doesn’t serve the community to its potential”
          There’s community centers it’ll be serving in Bitter Lake, Haller Lake, and Lake City with the bus line that’ll be accessible from the station. Alongside you’re talking about now not the future where one may end up getting built in the neighborhood. Tbh, you’re kinda holding back it’s potential with a car dependent mindset that it absolutely needs parking to be successful.

          “It’s a dead station serving a minimal set of commuters.”
          Its going to be getting a crosstown bus lines to serve Aurora Ave and Lake City Way alongside other neighborhoods

          “How much did we pay for this station?”
          Doesn’t really matter tbh, just an asinine statement against redevelopment of areas. Its not the end of the world that it doesn’t have a parking garage.

          “Are you going to walk in the wet Seattle weather to get there? ”
          People use an umbrella and wear a rain coat. Walking on a rainy Seattle day is better than traversing the snow in Denver from my experience living in both places. Pinehurst also doesn’t have much in terms of hills, so people will be fine walking. Also the neighborhood will be different in a decade or two as redevelopment happens in the neighborhood. In many ways, they’ll be better off now that they don’t have a parking garage to deal with. I can say this because I moved back from Denver, and RTD is in the process of redeveloping and closing P&Rs or parts of it like Southmoor and Central Park as an example. Because they are dead zones and don’t generate much in terms of ridership as they once did.

          “Don’t get me wrong I love the line but stations need to serve the community properly.”
          Maybe step back and realize getting to places doesn’t always require a car with said steps.

27. Mt Baker Neighborhood has done nothing but oppose upzones near the station half a mile away that is honoring the neighborhood by using its name. I think Mt Baker ought to be removed from the name, and replaced with Rainier / Franklin Station.

    1. For other a bit more context Mt Baker station was originally named “McClellan Station”. Judkins Park station was named “Rainier Station”

       https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/20030409/stations09m/light-rail-station-designs-unveiled

       > Mt Baker Neighborhood has done nothing but oppose upzones near the station half a mile away

       Are you talking about the community group or the neigborhood in general?

    2. It seems myopic to me to go through the expense of changing a station name because some activists promote something that you don’t agree with. Station names should be buffered from political opinions.

       And technically Mt Baker Blvd begins within a block of the station. So it could be argued that the station name already reflects the street where it almost sits.

       I’ve actually never liked the name Mt Baker for a neighborhood name. It leads to mass confusion about where Mt Baker is. Of course, if the real Mt Baker ever reverted back to Kulshan then the ridge can adopt the name!

       1. I would not have named that station Mount Baker but I certainly wouldn’t change it now. It is a good example of why names don’t have to accurate. I wouldn’t consider the station to be in Mount Baker. Who cares? It doesn’t really matter. If given the choice I would have probably called it “Franklin” after the high school, but whatever.

28. > Oddly, the simple planning name of “130th Street” (or even “North 130th”) is not under consideration on its own.

    Let’s not forget that the original east link station names were literally also “120th Station” and “130th Station”. They were then changed to be “120th/Spring District Station” and “130th/Bel-Red Station”. It was only recently changed to be “Spring District Station” and “Bel-Red Station”.

    Part of the minor debacle with choosing the east link station names lead Sound Transit to change the naming policy to be more impartial and follow other international guidelines.

    Previously the guideline was just “Reflect the nature of the environment: neighborhoods, street names, landmarks, plus geographical locations”. This was changed to be preference in order of:

    1) city, 2) neighborhood, 3) landmark and 4) street or combination of a city or neighborhood name with a minor street or landmark

    Also currently “Memorial naming of stations and lines, and corporate naming of stations, lines, and non-station facilities is not allowed in this policy.”

    * https://www.soundtransit.org/sites/default/files/documents/Resolution-R2021-14.pdf

    * https://www.soundtransit.org/st_sharepoint/download/sites/PRDA/FinalRecords/2015/Motion%20M2015-58.pdf

    1. Thanks for the links. I can’t say I agree with their approach, but it isn’t the end of the world either. I don’t think it really matters at this point whether the station is called “Pinehurst” instead of “130th”. Having the station named just “130th” doesn’t really add much. My biggest complaint is that they didn’t used the numbered streets in the north end (as I suggested above):

       45th
       65th
       Northgate
       130th
       148th (or 145th)
       185th
       Mountlake Terrace
       220th
       Lynnwood

       That is six numbered streets. Add “Street” or “St.” next to them if you want. Likewise you can preface them with “N.” or “North” (except for 220th). But all of those numbered streets offers two very nice things:

       1) It follows a pattern.
       2) The names are short.

       If you are worried about confusion with other named stations, there is a simple solution: don’t name any of the other stations after numbered streets. That has already been the case with the East Side. Even 220th could be named something else (e. g. “Melody Hill”) if they insist on adding “north” for the stations in King County and don’t want to just leave out the “north” there. This approach does not have to universal and in fact doesn’t make sense in much of the city (e. g. the cross streets are not numbered in Rainier Valley). But for the north end this was a blown opportunity.

       1. I agree, numbers are clear & legible, in particular for non-English speakers.

          If a city wants to be represented, then “185th/Shoreline” and “148th/Shoreline” seems perfectly fine.

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