King County Metro’s Route 8 travels inbound from Uptown to Mount Baker, primarily east and south through South Lake Union, Capitol Hill, Madison Valley, and the Central District. Outbound trips travel north and west from Mount Baker to Uptown. In August 2024, Route 8 had 6,177 average weekday boardings.

Unlike most of the high ridership routes in King County, Route 8 does not travel to downtown Seattle nor is it the fastest transit option to travel end-to-end. Instead, it has an east-west segment from Uptown to Madison Valley and a north-south segment from Madison Valley to Mount Baker. The two segments are distinct from both a geographic and ridership perspective.

Route 8 Map from King County Metro (Source)

Average Ridership Per Trip

The plots below show the average weekday ridership by stop in each direction, color-coded by time of day. For a more detailed breakdown of how the plots are set up, please refer to the How to Read the Plots section of the article discussing Route 70.

Average Weekday Ridership per Route 8 Trip: March 2023 to March 2024. “Inbound” is toward Mount Baker; “Outbound” is toward Uptown. Click the plot to view at full-resolution in a new tab.

The overall ridership patterns for Route 8 show a route with significant ridership between South Lake Union and Capitol Hill along with lower ridership through the Central District to Mount Baker. Some observations: 

  • Route 8’s northern terminus in Uptown (Queen Anne Ave & Mercer St) is surrounded by higher-density housing and retail and has transfers to routes 1, 2, 13, 32, and D Line. This stop is also adjacent to the Seattle Center and the Climate Pledge Arena. All of these factors contribute to its strong ridership throughout the day. 
  • Even though Route 8 is the only east-west route between Uptown and South Lake Union, most riders who start their trip in Uptown are not traveling to SLU. Route 8’s infamous unreliability along Denny Way might be a factor as people traveling between those two neighborhoods may opt to walk or roll, or take an indirect transit route via downtown Seattle.
  • Ridership between SLU and Capitol Hill is at its highest during the peak direction but is still strong throughout the day. The significant ridership in outbound morning trips and inbound afternoon trips suggests Route 8 is serving commuters who live in Capitol Hill and work in South Lake Union. These two neighborhoods are separated by I-5 and a steep hill, barriers that may cause some people to use Route 8 instead of walking or rolling.
  • E John St & Broadway E (inbound)/10 Ave E (outbound) is the busiest stop pair on the route. These stops are adjacent to the Capitol Hill Link Station. From the data, it’s not clear how many riders are transferring to/from Link as the many residences, shops, and other destinations in the area are also trip generators. 
  • The stops along E John St and E Thomas St have predominantly inbound alightings and outbound boardings. This pattern is most noticeable at E John St & 15th Ave E, where the Kaiser Permanente Central Hospital is located. Route 8 is likely serving as a feeder route for Link along this section. 
  • The stops along Madison St in Madison Valley observe a similar pattern to the stops along E John St and E Thomas St. 
  • Ridership is quite low south of Madison Valley on Martin Luther King Jr Way. Most stops see very few riders board or alight. Stops at arterial cross streets have slightly more riders, likely due to the proximity of higher density housing and shops along the arterial streets (Union St and Cherry St). 
  • Route 8 makes a detour from MLK Way to 23rd Ave between Yesler Way and Jackson St. This detour allows Route 8 to serve the core Judkins Park commercial area and provides convenient transfers to routes 4, 8, 14, and 48. The two stops along 23rd Ave have higher ridership than the adjacent stops on MLK Way.
  • The southern-most stops on MLK Way (Jackson St, Dearborn St, Massachusetts St, Hill St/ Walker St, Bayview St) have very little ridership. The area surrounding these stops is mostly consists of single family homes or townhouses, with a few small apartment buildings. This area is served by other routes that offer a more direct connection to most destinations. Riders traveling to downtown Seattle may opt to use routes 4, 7, or 14 instead. Riders traveling to University of Washington will use Route 48. Riders traveling to First Hill or Seattle Center may use Route 4. Route 8 is only the fastest option for getting to Capitol Hill and South Lake Union.
  • Despite the direct connection between the southern-most stops on MLK Way and Link at Mount Baker, there are negligible inbound boardings. Most riders who board Route 8 along this segment board an outbound bus traveling north. 
  • Route 8’s southern terminus is at the Mount Baker Transit Center. Passengers can transfer to routes 7, 14, 9, 48, 106, and the Link 1 Line. These transfers likely drive most of the ridership seen at this stop.

Daily Totals per Stop

The average daily total boarding and alighting counts show a similar pattern to the per trip data. Most Route 8 riders are traveling between South Lake Union and Capitol Hill.

Average Route 8 Weekday Boarding and Alighting Counts: March 2023 to March 2024. “Inbound” is toward Mount Baker; “Outbound” is toward Uptown. Click the plot to view at full-resolution in a new tab.

Looking Ahead

In early 2025, Route 8 will be impacted by the Seattle Department of Transportation’s (SDOT) Denny Way Paving Project. Despite the construction impact, the project does little to improve Route 8’s infamous reliability along Denny Way. The only Route 8 improvement noted by SDOT is “Bus stop consolidation to improve transit travel time and reliability”. As noted by Ryan Packer in The Urbanist, this project is a missed opportunity for meaningful improvements on Denny Way. Significant improvements for this corridor may be implemented within the next 8 years, as the recently passed 2024 Seattle Transportation Levy (Page 7) references transit improvements for Denny Way. When full Link 2 Line opens in late 2025, Route 8 will be rerouted to serve Judkins Park Station. The planned reroute will extend the Judkins Park detour further south to Massachusetts St. Full details of this restructure have been outlined by Mike Orr in a previous post on the Blog.

40 Replies to “Ridership Patterns for King County Metro Route 8”

  1. Is 23rd and Jackson now called the “Judkins Park commercial area”? That’s the first time I’ve seen this moniker bestowed on that area.

    1. That has been Jackson Square. In the 1997 process, Metro extended Route 8 there. in the Council process, Councilmember Pelz had it extended to South Walden Street.

      There is not a commercial area near Judkins. The Link station may open in late 2026.

      1. Jackson square is on 12th and Jackson not 23rd

        > Is 23rd and Jackson now called the “Judkins Park commercial area”?

        I don’t think there’s been a monicker given to it. It’s just 23rd and Jackson. But generally Judkins park (also having various boundaries) usually encompasses that intersection so I’d say it’s accurate.

  2. The 7 and 8 will provide a significant link between Judkins Park and Mount Baker… this is a significant shortcut between the 1 and 2 if traveling to the airport/Rainier Valley. Although the 7 and 8 will have different boarding and alighting areas at both stations. I guess the question is how many find this frequent link of use, we will see next year (hopefully).

    1. Routes 48 and 106 will also serve as a bridge between Judkins Park Station and Mount Baker Station (and Route 9 during peak hours). I suspect the bus bridge will be slightly faster than transferring at CID but it may not be fast enough to get on an earlier train.

    2. If a traveler is going from seatac to bellevue I’m not sure it’ll be useful

      Aka walk from mt baker across rainier avenue to the mt baker transit center. And then wait for the route 106, 7, 8 or 9 to reach judkins station. But honestly I don’t see someone with a luggage doing that and they’ll probably just stay on the train to CID/pioneer square.

      For people from rainier valley though, it’ll be a lot faster to directly use route 7 to judkins park to reach eastside rather than transferring to line 1 at mt baker or back tracking once reaching cid.

      For the reverse situation from bellevue to seatac it’s a bit different. While routes 106, 7, and 9 use rainier; Route 8 uses 23rd avenue. But I think the same applies for travelers. If someone is on a time crunch to reach the airport, I don’t see them trying to avoid link detour. It’s probably eastside to rainier valley or central district they’d use the 8 or 7 to avoid backtracking through sodo for raineir valley or backtracking through downtown to reach central district.

      1. “But honestly I don’t see someone with a luggage doing that and they’ll probably just stay on the train to CID/pioneer square.”

        An option which ST plans to make worse with the second downtown tunnel. When it’s all done, they’ll have to detour all the way to Westlake.

      2. Westlake: which will require some 11 floors of elevation change on 9 flights of escalators.

    3. A lot depends on where you are starting and where you are going. For example:

      Downtown Bellevue to SeaTac — Take the 560.
      BelRed to Columbia City — Take Link to Judkins Park and transfer to the 7 (and then stay on the 7).
      Redmond to Beacon Hill — Transfer at CID between the two trains.

      It is the various other trips that get tricky:

      Mercer Island to SeaTac — You can just transfer at CID, or you can try and save some time by taking the 7 as a “bus bridge”. I think most people will just stay on the train and transfer.

      Redmond to SeaTac — Several choices. You can take Link to Bellevue and then the 560, or you can stay on Link and use one of the two options listed for Mercer Island to SeaTac.

      1. The problem with using the 7 as a bus bridge here is that this is the slowest part of the entire #7 route, and the bus is quite crowded. Maybe with bus lanes, it will be doable.

  3. The southern terminus activity is more than mere transfers. There is QFC, Bartell’s and Franklin High near there too — along with Lowe’s and lots of other retail, bank branches and restaurants.

  4. Has there been any talk of doubling headways on the 8 bus between Lower Queen Anne and Madison Valley? Essentially a short turn bus.

    The 8 is the everything bus, I think its largely people taking a series of short trips between adjacent neighborhoods (i.e. SLU to Cap Hill), with some taking longer trips 4 or more neighborhoods and there is definitely a lot of feeding Link at Capitol Hill and to a lesser degree Mount Baker. Will be interesting to see how the southern portion changes when Judkins Parl opens. Probably a lot more feeding Link.

    1. I did some simple calculations when researching the Rapidride articles.

      The main problem is really the eastbound section towards i5 on Denny way. Turning around the buses early adds some frequency but they’d just end up stuck again.

      It’s like 40 minutes end to end, but during peak time the east west segment has so much traffic it ends up being like 55 minutes.

  5. Ideas have been floated of splitting the 8 at Madison Valley, and I think Ross had the idea of the East/West portion going to Madison Park instead of route 11.

    I have another idea. Both Madison valley and the central district have much lower ridership than the East/West #8, so it seems that the East/West part could use high frequency while those areas get mid-frequency. So create a branched route. Keep the existing route 8 as-is, and move route 11 to overlap the East/West segment all the way to Uptown/LQA. The 8 and 11 could both be 15 minute frequency buses, with a combined frequency of 7.5 minutes.

    This provides advantages:
    – High frequency for the highest demand segment of Capitol Hill, SLU, Denny Triangle, and uptown, and more appropriate frequency for Madison Park and CD
    – Maintains existing route 8 for those who already rely on both segments
    – Madison Park riders still have somewhat easy access to downtown, as they can transfer to Link at Capitol Hill or the G line at Madison Park (I would bet some have already started doing this since the recent restructure)
    -Eases bus lane congestion on Pike/Pine downtown so that other Capitol Hill routes can increase frequency without trouble

    1. Another benefit of this idea is some flexibility if the route 8 Harrison/Mercer reroute is realized (https://www.theurbanist.org/2024/04/15/seattle-moves-forward-harrison-street-reroute-for-perpetually-delayed-route-8/)

      One of the faults of that reroute is taking away service from Northern Belltown and Denny Triangle. With this proposal, one route could remain on Denny while the other moves to Harrison/Mercer to avoid congestion. I’m not really a fan of this, as it removes much of the benefit of a high-freqency combined corridor, but it’s an option.

      1. It would be good to have more east-west transit to cap hill, as it stands there’s a gap between the 8 and the U district.

        The bus on Harrison/Mercer could go up Lakeview to Belmont, potentially creating a transfer with the 3, before going up to Broadway.

      2. I’m not really a fan of this, as it removes much of the benefit of a high-freqency combined corridor, but it’s an option.

        I agree, M. This goes to one of the fundamental issues with our system (and transit systems in general). If you want to add more routes, you need more service.

        Consider this scenario: There are buses running on two corridors only a few blocks apart. Now consider two possible frequencies:

        1) Both buses are running every six minutes.
        2) Both buses are running every half hour.

        In the first case the fact that the buses are running so close to each other is fine, if not ideal. In the second case it a major problem. The buses should be consolidated to provide better service.

        Same thing goes for new routes. I think the best way to provide service on Harrison is with a bus from Boren. But it has to run at least every fifteen minutes to provide sufficient functionality. This is not cheap. A brand new route running every fifteen minutes means other buses run less often.

        This is why I left out the Boren/Harrison/Mercer bus from my last post. The biggest problem in the area — and with our transit system in general — is lack of frequency. There are plenty of routes that I would prefer, but I feel like the main priority should be improving frequency. Once we do that it makes sense to add extra connections (like Boren and Harrison).

    2. I think some of the utility of this proposal could be evaluated with an analysis of route 11 post-restructure (thanks for these, Michael Smith!). Once the dust has settled after the restructure and new G line, we can see how many route 11 riders are transferring to Link and G line already (approximately, based on boarding numbers at specific stops) vs how many continue downtown. If a significant portion already transfer, that indicates that moving route 11 from Pike/Pine to Denny wouldn’t be too detrimental, because transferring is effective for existing riders.

      1. I think some of the utility of this proposal could be evaluated with an analysis of route 11 post-restructure

        We won’t have those numbers for a while, but we do have overall numbers for the 11 and they aren’t good. Ridership is really low — lowest in over a year. So low that I would say it doesn’t really matter. What is there isn’t working. The problem — as it is system wide — is frequency. Forcing a transfer is never great, but increasing frequency can more than make up for it. There just aren’t that many people taking advantage of the one-seat ride of the 11.

        It is worth noting that the 48 hit a post-pandemic high. It has more than twice as many riders as the 11 (4,800 compared to 1,900). If you add all the folks on the 8 who board or alight on MLK along with all of the 11 riders it doesn’t match the number of people who use the 48. Sending the 8 to Madison Park and increasing the frequency of the 48 is likely to benefit a lot of riders and inconvenience relatively few.

        I think the bigger issue is the problem(s) with the G. When Link got to the UW a bunch of buses were truncated. This was a huge inconvenience for a lot a lot of people. Tough luck. They were able to increase frequency to the UW, which made up for it. If you were headed downtown it was worse, but it you were headed to the UW it was much better. Same goes here. Sure, you might prefer the one-seat ride. But at least you can transfer to the G or Link. The problem is that if the G is unreliable then you have to take Link and the stations are really deep if you are just headed downtown. G is improving (slowly) from what I’ve heard. If it continues to get better then it would make a big difference in terms of providing alternatives.

        So yeah, it would be great to get the stop data when it is available. But I don’t think it will alter my opinion of the 11.

    3. > Ideas have been floated of splitting the 8 at Madison Valley, and I think Ross had the idea of the East/West portion going to Madison Park instead of route 11.

      You can view that idea on the king county metro connects 2050 plan (1061 RRC)

      https://platform.remix.com/project/ea35df7d?latlng=47.61367,-122.31259,12.755&layer=hifi&sidebarCollapsed=true

      > So create a branched route. Keep the existing route 8 as-is, and move route 11 to overlap the East/West segment all the way to Uptown/LQA. The 8 and 11 could both be 15 minute frequency buses, with a combined frequency of 7.5 minutes.

      I kinda like the idea.

    4. Here is an example of what you are talking about: https://seattletransitblog.com/2023/08/30/high-frequency-network-surrounding-rapidride-g/. As WL mentioned, I’m pretty sure I got the idea from the original “Metro Connects” way back when.

      It is worth noting that the plan on that post is geared towards increasing frequency. Here is one way to think of the math: The eastern tail of the 8 goes to Madison Park instead of Mount Baker. This saves money. The 11 goes away. This saves a lot of money. Thus the riders in Madison Park get better frequency (15 minutes instead of 20 minutes) while we save a huge amount of service, which can be put anywhere (I would probably start with the 48).

      I agree about the service disconnect. Assume for a second that we save enough money to run this new 8 (from Uptown to Madison Park) every ten minutes. That is overkill for Madison Park. Agreed. But it also doesn’t cost that much. It also isn’t as bad as sending the G there. I can live with a little excess service, given what it would mean for the rest of the line. As for your particular suggestion:

      Keep the existing route 8 as-is, and move route 11 to overlap the East/West segment all the way to Uptown/LQA. The 8 and 11 could both be 15 minute frequency buses, with a combined frequency of 7.5 minutes.

      Good idea (for several reasons) but you can’t have that kind of frequency. Not without more money. Consider the math: the 11 is sent to Uptown instead of downtown. This may be better routing, but it doesn’t save any money. In fact it is the opposite. It takes longer to get to Uptown then it does downtown. Now consider current frequency. The 8 runs every fifteen minutes. The 11 runs every twenty. If they branch as you suggest that probably means running them both every twenty minutes (for a combined ten minutes in the shared section). This is great for the shared section, but not great for Madison Park or MLK. I think the dynamics are solid — it is a worthy place for a branch — but only if we can commit to more service in the area.

      Just to back up here. I’m not convinced that MLK needs service. It is very close to the 48 (which could use better frequency). Nor do I think pairing MLK with the east-west corridor is essential. If MLK has service I feel like it should be coverage in nature. I have a couple ideas. First assume that the 11-8 change happens (as I have on the map). Now it is a matter of covering MLK. Here are a couple ideas:

      1) Branch the 27 at MLK. One half does what it does now (go to Leschi Park). The other half turns on MLK and goes north and lays over at Madison Valley. This connects MLK with Yesler, a fairly natural pairing. Right now the 27 runs every half hour. If both branches ran every half hour it would be a big step down in service on MLK, but one that is appropriate in my opinion. This would cost extra money, but not a fortune (since it is just one fairly quick-route every half hour).

      2) Send the 4 north instead of south. This covers the biggest service hole on MLK (around Denny). This would probably be revenue neutral.

      But again, I’m not convinced we should have any service on MLK. But a lot depends on politics. If people insist that MLK have service — and they very much prefer their one-seat ride to Link and Uptown — then what you’ve suggested is probably the best we can do. But it wouldn’t really deal with the biggest weakness in the system: poor frequency.

      1. I think you have to keep some level of service on MLK. Yes – 23rd is only 5 blocks away, but the difference in height can be quite dramatic. Its over 200′ of elevation gain to walk up John St from MLK to 23rd. When I was living down there and attending UW, it was either a steep walk up the hill, or taking the 8 to Link. I fully expect this part of the route to get more ridership with the connection to the Judkins Park station when it opens next year as well.

      2. Ross, I see what you’re saying, and I acknowledge that this plan would require a bit of extra money for 15 minute frequency on both routes, perhaps 2 extra buses per hour to bring the 11 from 20 minutes to 15 and account for the extra travel time. But what it buys is high frequency on the East/West section of route 8. There are 2 major complaints about the 8: that it’s slow and that it’s consistently late. One of those is mostly solved with this, because with 7.5 minute frequency, for example if the buses are running 10 minutes late, that means that the previous bus is still coming in 2.5 minutes. East/West Riders don’t need to try to time the bus and get disappointed by the delays because the high frequency makes up for it. SLU and Denny Triangle need better service now, not whenever Link gets there (or doesn’t).

        As far as MLK, it would be very hard politically to remove service there, and I somewhat disagree with removing it, because of coverage gaps to the East. But I do think one section could be removed, especially after Judkins Park station opens: the tail section between Judkins and Mount Baker stations. This section has close service to the East (14), West (48 and 7), North (2 Line), and South (1 Line, 14). I don’t know how much removing that section would save, but I bet it would go a long way toward moving the 11.

      3. And I just realized that route 4 also serves MLK south of Judkins. I’m pretty convinced now that the tail of the 8 past Judkins should be removed, and it would be much easier than removing MLK service further north

      4. Its over 200′ of elevation gain to walk up John St from MLK to 23rd.

        Sure, but that is not typical. As you move south it is not nearly as steep. At Pine the height difference drops to 50 feet. It goes up again at Union (to 80 feet) but by the time you get to Cherry it is practically flat (https://maps.app.goo.gl/1JQhf39TmhCBzsjv8). As you move south it remains fairly flat between the two streets and it also narrows. By the time you hit Jackson it is not only fairly flat but also quite close. The streets remain close until 23rd crosses Rainier. At that point the bus abandons 23rd and follows Rainier (right as the gap between MLK and 23rd is about to get steep again).

        Thus the only point where it is really steep between the two streets is also the point where it is the widest. But this is also the point where you have very few riders. Look at the ridership along MLK at that section (for a southbound bus):

        MLK & John: 17 boardings, 22 alightings
        MLK & Olive: 7 boardings, 18 alightings.

        Compare this to ridership on the 48:

        23rd & John: 92 boardings, 136 alightings.
        23rd & Pine: 73 boardings, 58 alightings.

        Not only does the 48 have a lot more riders, but it has way more heading south. Now consider how many people would be inconvenienced. If you are used to boarding at 23rd & John (heading towards Mount Baker) then yes, it would be a steep walk to catch the 48. But at worst you hop on the G for one stop and then catch the 48. Sure, this is an inconvenience, but an inconvenience for only 17 people. If you are coming from Uptown then it is exactly the same. If you are at MLK & Olive heading for Mount Baker you are definitely inconvenienced. But only 7 people do that (and it isn’t that bad https://maps.app.goo.gl/8YYkU7WTB2z5J9Du8). Meanwhile, the folks who come from Uptown and get off the bus there have to walk farther, but the north-south walk is fairly flat (https://maps.app.goo.gl/exUeQZNNgVSXLgCX6).

        The only place where you could make a good case that the walk is bad and also effects a significant number of people is at Union. But worst case scenario these people could take the 2 and transfer. Here is the ridership of the 8 and 48:

        MLK & Union (8): 57 boardings, 87 alightings
        23rd & Union (48): 146 boardings, 130 alightings

        That is about it, and it doesn’t hurt that many people. The bulk of the people who would walk farther would be walking on the relatively flat and short sections. Overall it is clear that if increased the frequency of the 48 it would help way more people than the numbers hurt by ending service on MLK.

      5. @M

        > There are 2 major complaints about the 8: that it’s slow and that it’s consistently late. One of those is mostly solved with this, because with 7.5 minute frequency, for example if the buses are running 10 minutes late, that means that the previous bus is still coming in 2.5 minutes.

        Unfortunately that is not how it works. In the normal scenario sure if the bus is late by a bit the next bus will be incoming.

        The denny way traffic is much more severe than that though. If the first bus is late by 10 minutes the next bus will be late by 20 minutes then. king county metro already already actually built it into the schedule partially. If you look at the travel time at around noon versus 12 pm it takes 10 minutes longer for that section.

        If you want to solve the frequency / wait times caused by the heavy freeway traffic — running buses more frequently will only slightly solve the issue. If it takes forever for the bus to reach i5 all the buses will just end up getting stuck once traveling eastbound.

      7. But what it buys is high frequency on the East/West section of route 8.

        Yes, and it might be possible to pull that off if we manage to make the slow part of the 8 (the east-west part) faster. But it is fundamentally cheaper — and way more flexible — to do the same thing by just sending the 8 to Madison Park. Run the 8 every 7.5 minutes from Uptown to Madison Park. Sure, that is overkill for Madison Park. But it is still cheaper than what you are proposing.

        I like the idea of running the core of the 8 more often, but we have other needs. The 8 between Mount Baker and Madison gets a tiny number of riders compared to the 48. We have no money to make the 48 more frequent, yet we are keeping a bus (or part of a bus) that is largely redundant. It adds a bit of coverage, but the east-buses have almost all of those areas covered. It is also generally fairly easy to walk north-south to the east-west buses. So it isn’t really adding coverage — it is adding coverage in a particular direction.

        Also consider the density. This isn’t Summit. While there is plenty of density on MLK, in most places the density drops off fairly quickly as you head east. Density is pretty high for areas that are mostly single-family, but it is still mostly single-family. Again it seems off to have fifteen minute service along this corridor while the Summit area gets buses every half hour.

        Also consider that a lot of the east-west buses have poor frequency east of 23rd. The 2 and 14 run every fifteen, and that is as good as it gets. The 11 runs every twenty minutes. The 3 only runs every half hour! So does the 27 — even west of 23rd! It is pretty weird that we claim we need a bus running every fifteen minutes north-south (i. e. not connecting to downtown) but we can’t afford a bus going east-west every fifteen minutes, let alone ten.

        It isn’t clear that would be what folks prefer. Given the choice of running the 3 or 27 every fifteen minutes versus running the MLK part of the 8 every fifteen I think way more people would benefit from the former.

        I really could see what you are saying in two circumstances:

        1) It is the only thing that is politically possible. Folks put up with absolute crap when it comes to our transit system largely because they don’t want to see things change. The beauty of your proposal is that it avoids major change.

        2) We have enough money to afford a lot of extra service. That means all the buses are running every fifteen minutes east of 23rd. It also means we are running a Boren/Harrison/Mercer bus every fifteen minutes (or better) as well. Core buses (like the 44 and 48) are running every ten minutes if not better. At that point the branch would be appropriate.

      8. “ I’m pretty convinced now that the tail of the 8 past Judkins should be removed, and it would be much easier than removing MLK service further north.”

        Alas, no one dared to add a place to reverse buses (and other dropoff / pickup vehicles) at Judkins Park. Unlike other stations, there isn’t a tight street grid that could work.

        Meanwhile, that big space inside the loop ramp just sits there empty and fenced off. It’s already been proposed to bring the loop ramp to be perpendicular to Rainier with a signal, which would make that space more easily usable for a place to reverse buses. If that’s built, then a bus reversal becomes easy if it’s built like South Bellevue was before Link — one direction as a curb lane (southbound), and the other direction (northbound) as a new one-way lane across that space which then merges with that redesigned off ramp.

      9. @Martin — That isn’t the section we are talking about. We were discussing the gap between MLK and 23rd. Not the entire corridor, but where buses run on the two sections. That means John to the north and Rainier Avenue to the south. To the north it is quite steep. To the south it isn’t. You can see this on a topo map (https://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=47.60838,-122.28903&z=16&b=t) or by using Google Maps to select walking directions from a stop on MLK to a spot on 23rd (e. g. here is the one for John: https://maps.app.goo.gl/vTgod1dFkt8StVe68).

        This is quite steep. RTB’s point is valid. If you are used to walking to the stop at MLK & John and catching a bus towards Mount Baker you are out of luck. But only a handful of people do that (less than ten people a day). At worst they can walk north to the G and then catch it up the hill (https://maps.app.goo.gl/21LgZhWz1qcKHvkK6). This is not nearly as steep.

      10. > The 11 runs every twenty minutes. The 3 only runs every half hour! So does the 27 — even west of 23rd!

        The 27 (Yesler) is actually pretty close to the 14 (Jackson) running every 15 minutes. It’s only 800 feet away and flat. For the 8 to the 48 it’s around 1100 to 1500 feet. I mean I guess they both are pretty close but the argument to move funds from 48 to route 27 because there’s a another route nearby seems a bit odd in this case.

        The 3 and 4 are interlined.

        Also the route 3 while it runs half hourly it has a lot more traffic and actually costs almost the same as route 48. Route 3 platform hours 168, route 48 costs platform hours 148

        https://cdn.kingcounty.gov/-/media/king-county/depts/metro/documents/about/data-and-reports/2023/system-evaluation.pdf?rev=f6dfbff3c8c241789d8ea41af786dc60&hash=088EBDE82881D6379C72207DC78904D4

      11. The 27 (Yesler) is actually pretty close to the 14 (Jackson) running every 15 minutes. It’s only 800 feet away and flat.

        To the east yes, but not to the west (where the bulk of the people are): https://maps.app.goo.gl/EnYHkkPjA57AbEpx8. But I get your point. The biggest difference is that the Yesler corridor just has way more density and is connected to downtown. In contrast connecting MLK to Mount Baker is bound to have fewer riders (and it does). But the main point I’m making is that service in the area is not very good — why are we spending so much of it on a section that clearly doesn’t get that many riders?

        The 3 and 4 are interlined

        Of course they are. But I was talking about buses to the east of 23rd. (I just happened to mention the entirety of the 27 — so maybe that confused you.) If you are at MLK & Cherry maybe you want a 3 running every fifteen minutes instead of the 8. Same thing goes for anywhere along Yesler (with the 27). Then there is Madison Park. Why should it have buses running every 20 minutes just so that we have buses on the weak part of the 8? This approach would make sense if it was cheaper, but it isn’t — it is the opposite.

        Also the route 3 while it runs half hourly it has a lot more traffic and actually costs almost the same as route 48.

        That is for the entire 3. I’m talking about the part east of 23rd. (Also, the data is out of date since the 3/4 just changed.) In any event I am basically proposing running the eastern part of the 3 every fifteen minutes. From a cost perspective this is cheap. Simply extend one of the buses that ends at 23rd to Madrona every half hour (opposite the existing bus). (Technically this is a 4, but it is the same idea.)

        Actually I would take it a step further. Summit should have fifteen minute service. The eastern tail of the 4 (which only runs twice an hour) is unnecessary. We can clean up these routes at the same time by doing the following:

        3 — From Summit to Madrona every fifteen minutes
        4 — SPU to Garfield High every fifteen minutes

        This is much easier to understand and just better overall. You pay for it by getting rid of the underperforming section of the 8 and combining service on First Hill.

      12. I just want to recognize that Metro is still in a transitory period for Central District ridership. We are now post-RRG and pre-Judkins Park.

        Consider too that the restructure was supposed to occur in reverse order with Judkins Park opening first.

        Finally, there aren’t any other major transit changes occurring in the Route 8 corridor once Judkins Park opens.

        Metro will have a much better idea of how to restructure the network in just about 13-18 months as I said. Metro has no plans to do anything major until then anyway — and right now for Seattle it’s simply moving a Route 8 segment when Judkins Park Station opens with a new 23rd Ave entrance.

        Yes all these ideas can be lit pin the table. They have validity. I’m just saying to wait until 2 Line is running.

        Finally, Metro staff will still need to focus on East King and South King as these areas deal with radically new transit service with Link in the next year — along with other RapidRide projects in development. Their plate is prettt full.

      14. @Ross, thanks, get it now…
        Yes, the area around 23rd does not have much density, very little retail/commercial activity. MLK gets a lot more traffic. @Al, I agree, let’s see what changes in ridership the 2 Line brings.
        The core between SLU and CapHill is where the 8 gets the most ridership and picks up the most delays due to traffic. That’s where a gondola could help.

  6. Since Metro intends to reroute Route 8 to Run by the 23rd Ave entrance at Judkins Park, it will be interesting to see how that affects demand. While some may think its effect is negligible, I could see how things could be different.

    The most obvious change is the creation of a Route 8/48 duplicative segment on 23rd Ave between Yesler and Massachusetts. With frequency that high, a rider at 23rd and Jackson won’t have to wait long for a bus. Route 48 riders may take Route 8 if it comes first. Some that miss a Route 14 or 27 bus may hop Route 8 or 48 and transfer at Judkins Park. On the other hand, a rider that today uses Route 8 between Judkins Park and Capitol Hill may start taking Link when 2 Line opens — reducing Route 8 ridership.

    Making big changes to Route 8 would seemingly result in restructuring other routes. A larger restructuring needs at least 2 years of discussion at the neighborhood and rider level.

    So I suggest revisiting the boarding patterns once Link’s 2 Line opens and the routing shifts. We can all speculate how things might change — but nothing beats the real-time data that will start to be available in about 18 months (assuming that 2 Line begins operating in 13 months).

    1. Good call. That 8/48 on 23rd feeding Judkins Park Station will likely function like the 8/11 does on John/Thomas feeding Capitol Hill Station with fairly frequent service in the corridor (its walkable but easier to hop a bus 3-4 stops). Would expect ridership to rise significantly given the good service and connection. Also a good place for more density.

    2. Yes, it will be much easier to get from the East Side to the Central Area. But going the other way you still have the same problem. The buses run on two different streets, quite close to each other. Do you take the 8 or 48? Both buses run every fifteen minutes.

      Making big changes to Route 8 would seemingly result in restructuring other routes.

      Absolutely. They should have restructured with the RapidRide G. Waiting until East Link seems unnecessary given how terrible transit is in the area. Buses should not be running as infrequently as they do in an area like this.

      1. Sure the Eastside will be direct, Ross.

        A situation that I’m referencing is when a Downtown Seattle bound rider just misses a Route 14 or 27 bus at a stop near where that route crosses 23rd. At midday Route 27 runs only every 30 minutes and Route 14 every 15. With Route 8 or 48 running to Judkins Park every 7.5 minutes combined there is a decent likelihood that a rider won’t wait long. The stop may be a few hundred feet away, but if a rider sees that they can make it, they may go for it.

        Evenings and weekends are also situations where such a switch may happen. Bus frequencies really drop.

        I’m not saying that every rider and every situation will consider it. I’m only saying that sometimes it may happen.

        And 23rd/ Jackson is only about a 6/10th mile walk to or from Judkins Park. I live 3/4 mile walk from Columbia City Station and it’s not a deal-breaking distance for me to walk if I miss a Route 50 bus.

        Which reminds me that the 23rd entrance is amazingly better access for the neighbors north of the station so both Routes 48 and 8 (and maybe Route 14) may lose riders as some will just walk to that new station entrance, particularly if they live south of Jackson Street.

Comments are closed.