On a rainy Sunday in October, three Metro buses meandered through the beautiful Cascade foothills on their way to Black Diamond. Leading the pack was Metro bus 5034, a 1990 Breda DuoBus 350. Following the Breda was bus 3152, a 1987 MAN Americana SL40102L. Finally, a 2004 New Flyer DE60LF acted as the caboose for this trip. While the buses navigated the twists, turns, and hills (the MAN bus struggled up most hills), over 100 passengers enjoyed the views, both of the scenery and of the buses.
These three buses were operating the Metro Employees Historic Vehicle Association’s (MEHVA) Fall Foliage tour. The tour stopped in Black Diamond, where the tour participants could get a bite to eat at Black Diamond Bakery and learn more about the buses. The extremely knowledgeable operators shared insights about the buses and reminisced about driving in the Downtown Seattle Transit Tunnel.
MEHVA’s final tour of 2025 is on December 6. The Holiday Lights Tour will travel through several Seattle neighborhoods to see the best holiday lights in the City. The 2 hour tour starts at 7pm and 7:30pm, one block east of Stadium station. Take a time-traveling transit journey by riding the first Federal Way Link Extension train in the morning and a vintage Metro bus in the evening on December 6.
This is an open thread.
Will there be a Spring tour?
I assume so, but MEHVA has not announced any Spring tours yet. Keep an eye on their website for additional details if/when they are announced. We will also do our best to share upcoming tours in our Midweek Roundup posts on Wednesdays.
The bus shown in the picture looks like a trolley bus, but Renton does not have any trolley wire. Does this mean there used to be trolley wire out there long ago? Are the old trolley buses retrofitted with diesel engines to allow them to run on streets where wire has been removed?
That bus has trolley poles and a diesel engine. While the bus was in service, the diesel engine was used outside and the trolley poles were used in the downtown tunnel. The bus was in diesel mode for the tour.
Yeah, and if they ever developed the Cross Kirkland Corridor for buses those are the type of buses they would probably use (although it is possible they would use electric battery/wire hybrids). Wire on the corridor and either batteries or diesel outside it.
I didn’t realize that diesel/trolley hybrids existed. That seems like another low hanging fruit option to consider to boost bus electrification. How much would it cost to put trolley poles on every bus that goes through downtown? This seems easy to deploy quickly, and would require no charging infrastructure beyond existing trolley wire.
Can this be retrofitted to existing diesel buses without buying whole new buses?
I think most (all?) of the buses that used the tunnel were like this. I certainly remember the 41 (from downtown to Northgate), 71/72/73 (from downtown to the U District), the 255, and the 550 all did this. The bus would pause at Convention Place or International District, while the driver went outside to the back and attached (when entering) or detached (when leaving) the poles.
It’s a shame we’ve moved away from the trolley buses. They accelerated much more smoothly and quietly. They had a more comfortable riding experience.
At some point they started using some buses (burning natural gas?) that supposedly had emissions low enough to be used in the tunnel.
The initial DSTT buses were this dual-mode kind. This was to keep exhaust fumes out of the tunnel. That bus model was particularly unreliable so they were retired in a few years.
Metro had about 236 dual mode high floor Bredas for use in the DSTT. Revenue service opened in fall 1990. One bus was destroyed by fire on SR-520. Metro installed “pie pans” at the outer DSTT stations to catch the poles. (That tactic may have relevance in the future). Originally, Metro intended to buy many more Bredas and use the DSTT more intensively. Operations planned on platooning buses. Those dreams were cut short by their poor performance and the affirmative vote on Sound Move in fall 1996.
At first, Metro allocated DSTT service and buses politically; the thought was that the whole county had helped pay for the DSTT and all should benefit. The Bredas had issues; in diesel mode, they were noisy and slow on hills; they did not do well on the Tukwila hill of I-5 South or departing from the Montlake freeway stations; on the freeways, the tail had a swing that some riders did not like; on residential streets, they shook houses. Over time, service planning got the Bredas shifted to shorter routes, more two-way routes and fewer one-way routes, the pure network was not achieved. Some dreamed of a coffee cup Breda network with shorter more frequent routes and even some through routing.
They were replaced by low floor hybrid diesels in the DSTT in about 2002. The hybrids had a hush mode that was used in the DSTT.
The DSTT was closed for Link retrofit between fall 2005 and fall 2007. Link service began in summer 2009. Bus service ended prematurely in March 2019 when the county sold CPS to the WSCC.
About 50 of the Bredas were converted to ETB only and served several more years. Some operators liked the way the Bredas operated as ETB. It was in the mid teens when the new purple low floor ETB arrived.
Some notable Breda service changes: in fall 1997, the Bellevue DSTT service was shifted to Route 226 from Route 253, to I-90 from SR-520 for better reliability. Route 550 replaced Route 226. In fall 2002, Route 307 was deleted and Route 522 implemented and routes 41 and 372 improved. Route 194 was a Breda until it was deleted in February 2010. Route 174 turnback was a Breda in the DSTT for a short time after the A Line and before Link.
Among the long one-way routes that used Bredas at one time were routes 301, 265, 266, 258, 225, 229, 177, 196. Long two-way Breda routes included 194 Federal Way via SeaTac, 255 Brickyard via Kirkland , 253 Redmond, 307 Woodinville, 106 Kennydale, 107 Renton Highlands, 71, 72, and 73.
@Jack Whisner
I found an old document at the Seattle Public Library that showed more routes proposed for the tunnel like the 235*, 252, 257, 259*, 311, & 355 (*routes existing before September 1997).
The 235 was I-90 Seattle-Bellevue-Kirkland route. It alternated with the 226 to Bellevue TC with a slight divergence in south Bellevue, then they split. The 226 may have replaced the 235 in that segment before the 550 replaced the 226, so the 226 in the tunnel had both the 226’s and 235’s former trips. The Bellevue-Kirkland part would then have been replaced by another route.
When I was using both the 226 and 235 regularly it was still the original pattern. When I moved to Seattle I used the 226 occasionally not the 235. I remember the 226 increasing from hourly to half-hourly I think, and that would have been replacing the 235’s Seattle-Bellevue segment. Then when the 550 started, it continued to run half-hourly: there was no service increase over the 226 for the first few years. As a result. it was the only ST Express route charging Metro’s lower fare until 15-minute service started.
Mike Orr,
before fall 1997, routes 226 and 235 were coordinated. On oddity was that Route 235 had deviations that served the Jewish Community Center on East Mercer Way about two days a week.
The fall 1997 service change was among my favorites. Rob McKenna, District 6, was Transportation Chair and was brave enough to restructure service in his own district.
“I didn’t realize that diesel/trolley hybrids existed. That seems like another low hanging fruit option to consider to boost bus electrification.”
The problem with this kind of dual-mode trolleybus is that it takes a lot of interior space to have both electric motor and diesel engine in the same vehicle. MBTA Silver Line’s Neoplan has half of its rear cabin occupied by those things. Plus, it takes longer to switch power.
That’s also why outside the US, dual-mode was barely a solution. Battery has been the solution for off-wire running for quite some time. Not just in Europe, but Beijing’s trolleybus has run off-wire with battery since 1990s.
Trolleybus with diesel engine was the initial solution for 1980s and 1990s. Then some of the Bredas was retrofitted to remove diesel engine and run on Metro’s trolleybus route like 7.
Since 2000s, better battery became available so they simply order diesel-electric fleet that can run full-electric mode for the distance as long as DSTT.
I believe all the Sound Transit 60-ft diesel-electric hybrid buses that are still running today can operate full-electric mode although there is no reason to since they are not running in DSTT anymore.
I went on this Fall Foliage tour in October. It was a lot of fun, and we were able to ride different buses (the 2nd was a bendyboy) to and from the break at Black Diamond Bakery. The operators couldn’t control the somewhat rainy weather nor the power outage in Black Diamond, but we made do enjoying the autumn scenery and paying in cash for food at the bakery (that way they wouldn’t lose business on a Saturday since they had already baked a bunch of stuff).
I really recommend going on this tour!
I was also on this tour in October. It was great! Quite an awesome throwback to ride those old Breda buses and MAN “breadbox”.
” The initial DSTT buses were this dual-mode kind. … That bus model was particularly unreliable … ” These buses were also unusually heavy, and really damaged the asphalt streets they ran on. I remember looking at waves and grooves in the asphalt on University Way caused by the dual motor buses running routes 71, 72, and 73.
That happened with damn near everything Breda built: both SF and LA’S breda LRVs were hideously overweight and constantly malfunctioning. Thankfully SF just joined Seattle in finally retiring their Breda vehicles.
Europe too.
My German transit advocate friend once posted a list of all the awful stuff Andaldo Breda had made for everyone outside Italy. Apparently it got to the point agencies were specifically writing specifications that excluded Ansaldo Breda.
E.g.: Gothenburg, Sweden found the air conditioning on their trams didn’t work sufficiently well. Do you know how badly air conditioning needs to perform for it to be a problem in Sweden?
Apparently under Hitachi ownership, things are vastly better.
This was a good excursion. The MAN bus was super comfy, but the Breda was a fun time too.
Oh this gives me a good idea! The trailhead direct buses are great, but it’s unfortunate that it’s the same few trails all year-round, which is not much variety for car-free hikers. What if there was a trailhead direct “route” which changed destinations every weekend? It would be hard to schedule, but…
That would be cool. I could see it. The trailhead direct buses are as much about parking as they are providing a nice service for hikers so it would probably be a supplemental thing. It will be interesting to see what happens with Trailhead Direct when Link makes it across the water. A lot of us figure the buses won’t go to Seattle but I haven’t heard any plans.
Trailhead Direct had a May Valley route originally. I think it was the long way to Issaquah. I rode it to see what’s there, because that area hasn’t had a regular bus route for decades.
It would be interesting if they put out survey in the winter and run the top voted routes the next summer. Or rotate between different routes every other week.
What size and weight bus do they use? You do realize that the vast majority of trailhead parking areas are too small and potentially too rough to turn a bus, or even a sprinter van, around in?
I ride a dual sport motorcycle into a lot of the trailheads in the central Cascades, and an increasing number are only accessible by motorcycle or high ground clearance 4×4.
the vast majority of trailhead parking areas are too small and potentially too rough to turn a bus, or even a sprinter van, around in?
Of course, but Trailhead Direct would never serve those areas. The places that make sense for a bus have big parking lots and are usually paved. There are some exceptions (like the end of the Teanaway during larch season or Blanca Lake once it melts out). But I’m thinking of places like the “Issaquah Alps” hikes, Middle Fork, Snow Lake, Kendall Katwalk or Granite Mountain. Some of these are already served but not extensively. Others may be considered too far. Snow Lake isn’t a bad drive (which is part of the reason it is so popular) but kinda expensive for a bus.
“What size and weight bus do they use?”
Of course. Feasibility to run buses definitely will be a factor to eliminate a lot of popular trailheads, but after that I think there will be more than 3 options left.
It is not realistic to run all of them, but it is also boring to always run the same three routes, so why not have more routes in the back pockets starting with the routes that had service before.
The vans have around twenty seats? One I was on was quite well used when it happened to come when I was traveling from South Bellevue station to Capitol Hill.
Would like to see an additional stop in North Bend to serve more of the downtown area. Liked to grab food and drink after a hike and was always scrambling to get to the stop on the west edge of downtown.
Does each bus route/destination have to be surveyed or vetted in some way? Do drivers have to be trained and /or certified to operate particular routes or destinations? Those kinds of operational factors may be limiting to what they can do.
Oh the good old days where people from Maple Valley and Renton used to have 2 seat rides to big destinations in Seattle, as well as the UW. Now the trip takes longer and service is decreased.
Link is the main improvement for those heading north of downtown. That’s pretty much it… Everything else got worse.
Would the May Valley trailheads be popular if a route came back? There’s Margaret’s Way and I think two others. When I rode past them on the first Trailhead Direct, they were bigger than I expected, not just a dirt path but a big entrance sign and dropoff area and I don’t remember about parking spaces, so they must be popular.