Federal Way Link Extension: Sneak Peek

59 Replies to “Federal Way Link Extension: Sneak Peek”

1. Wow! Media and Seattle elitists get to ride our local trains before we do.

   1. If this is a joke, it’s funny. If it’s serious, it’s even funnier.

      1. Yeah, the author really showed off his condescending views of the rest of the county.

         TBH, most of Federal Way didn’t want the thing here at all. Only those willing to squander other people’s money on a boondoggle voted for it., though e en that is debatable. There’s still accusations of voting fraud floating around amongst the older residents.

         Anyway, Mr. Sound Transit for Me but not for Thee can go fly a kite

   2. Not to worry. A chunk of blue-collar workers have gotten to ride the train for the past couple months.

   3. How can they write articles about the view from the train without having preview access?

2. That is a long, LONG ramp. I would think it would need landings.

   1. ssshh, someone in the ADA compliance team might notice and make sound transit rebuild the station!

      1. I believe the elevators fulfill the ADA requirement even if the ramp doesn’t meet ADA standards.

3. Dang, I couldn’t come because I had school :(

   1. The invitation was for one or two STB staff, not everybody. That’s the media preview part Matthew is upset about. Never mind that the purpose of media previews is to make public articles possible, and the public will see the whole thing in two days.

4. Wow… I didn’t realize the full scope of station placement in relation to Pac highway. Kent Des Moines is much closer to Pac highway and closer to Highline than originally thought. Because it’s so far from the Kent Des-Moines P&R, is Metro going to keep it?

   [suggestion to STB: a story on the ghost park & rides in the Puget Sound area that agencies are hanging on to? Eastmont, Maryville One and now Kent Des Moines come to mind..]

   FW Station is much closer to 320th. That’s a major plus. Star Lake might become the least-used station with a parking garage…

   1. I wonder if they will allow Metro route 181 (a future RapidRide) to run straight through on S 320th St without going through the new bus loop.

      Westlake will likely be temporarily demoted to busiest station without a parking garage. SeaTac Airport ridership will most certainly go up as airport workers experience the much shorter waits at the station.and shorter total trip times.

      1. I’m guessing Federal Way Downtown Station is going to be bigger than Lynnwood City Center Station because it’s closer to Tacoma (more popular than Everett), though I don’t really like Tacoma (nor Pierce County), it’s just trying to be like King and Snohomish counties, which I really don’t like.

      2. I’m guessing Federal Way Downtown Station is going to be bigger than Lynnwood City Center Station because it’s closer to Tacoma (more popular than Everett)

         Tacoma is a lot bigger than Everett. But that really doesn’t matter. Link is not a good way to get from Seattle to Tacoma. Sounder is faster (when it is running) and an express bus is faster midday. In contrast Link is pretty much the only way to get from Everett to Seattle by transit. They still run a few express buses (and North Sounder) but only peak-direction.

         The dynamic is just a lot different. Lynnwood is the main way that someone can use transit to get to Seattle from Snohomish County. Federal Way Link is handy for those trying to get to Highline College (from the north or south) or SeaTac (from the south). That’s about it.

      3. “ I’m guessing Federal Way Downtown Station is going to be bigger than Lynnwood City Center Station because it’s closer to Tacoma…”

         I take it you mean that you expect it to have more boardings, right?

         The nice thing about the 1 Line is that there are more reasons to use it beyond just getting to and from an office job in Downtown Seattle. There are the stadiums, UW, other colleges, SeaTac, the Convention Center and Capitol Hill.

         An interesting thing that happened with Lynnwood Link opening is that it attracted more riders to the SeaTac station, for example. I think it’s because Lynnwood is a brutal trek to make a SeaTac drop off or pickup.

         I think it’s going to be interesting to see which end station attracts the most boardings. Surely, I’m expecting Federal Way to have the highest boardings from FWLE stations similar to Lynnwood was with that extension. If forced to guess which will have more, I think Lynnwood will get slightly more riders for two reasons: 1. It has a more ambitious feeder bus setup in Swift. 2. The higher frequencies and addition of the Eastside coming with the 2 Line in 2026 will give a further bump to Lynnwood station boardings.

      4. “I’m guessing Federal Way Downtown Station is going to be bigger than Lynnwood City Center Station because it’s closer to Tacoma (more popular than Everett)”

         North Seattle has major destination centers before downtown: the U-District is just a 21-minute ride from Lynnwood station, and the gateway to Ballard, Wallingford, and U-Village. Northgate, Roosevelt, and Capitol Hill are also significant destination/transfer attractors from Snohomish County.

         The south end doesn’t have anything comparable. 21 minutes from Federal Way or the airport leads to no walkable regional center or major shopping/service/job centers. Rainier Valley has some of that but it’s all small and doesn’t meet as wide a range of needs. South King County in the 99 corridor doesn’t even have what Rainier Valley has. The only significant things it has are the airport, Highline College, and whatever the Commons mall area becomes someday. That’s not enough for all of people’s needs, and much of the retail is national chain stores that have branches elsewhere. That both gives people in Seattle little reason to go to South King County, and even South King County residents near Link have to go out of the area to get things they need within walking distance of a station.

         It’s the responsibility of the cities of Federal Way, Des Moines, Kent, SeaTac, and Tukwila to change that, and to put a wider range of unique destinations in their station areas that attract people from outside the neighborhood.

      5. It’s the 10th most populous city in Washington State, it’s debatable, so case close, I didn’t need three people to say the same thing I said.

      6. Mike, I’d say that the airport *is* the significant destination of the south end. I’d imagine many airport workers and even some fliers will use the new stations on a regular basis.

      7. “the airport *is* the significant destination of the south end.”

         That benefits only airline travelers and workers. Workers go there five days a week, but airline travelers once or twice a year or less. People buy groceries every week, have yoga classes, go to the library, attend events, buy household goods, go to parks, go to church, go to medical appointments, visit people, go to a wide variety of jobs, etc. In Seattle many people can take Link to a station and walk to those. In South King County many of those things are severely lacking around Link stations, and the airport is not a sufficient substitute for them.

      8. “It’s the 10th most populous city in Washington State”

         And if you go to Tacoma, 90% of the city is unwalkable, and Pierce Transit runs every 30-60 minutes. That reduces the usefulness of transit to Tacoma, as only a small part of the city is accessible once you get there. Tacoma should work on that.

      9. It’s the 10th most populous city in Washington State

         Huh? I thought you were talking about Tacoma. Tacoma is the third biggest city in Washington, not far behind Spokane. But here is the thing: that doesn’t matter.

         First of all, boundaries are arbitrary. Second, density is as important as total population when it comes to transit ridership. Third, you have to consider the actual trip. Obviously it matters how many people are interested in taking the trip (that is the first consideration). If you are trying to judge the impact of a particular service (such as Link) you have to figure out how it helps. Which gets me back to my original point:

         Federal Way Link doesn’t help a rider if they are trying to get from Tacoma to Downtown Seattle. There are other trips of course. For those you have to consider the bus network. For now, there just aren’t a lot of trips involving Tacoma that will be much better using Link. Even something like Rainier Valley to Tacoma is about the same. Instead of someone catching the 574 at SeaTac they catch it at Federal Way. This is obviously faster but the 574 will be just as infrequent (at least for now). The same is true for getting to SeaTac. A rider from Tacoma probably won’t transfer at Federal Way if they are headed to SeaTac — they will just stay on the bus. It is likely this will change and as a result, you will see more riders on Link. SeaTac is a big employer and destination. But it is still smaller than Downtown Seattle. It is quite likely that most of the riders heading from Tacoma to Seattle will continue to just take the bus (and Sounder).

      10. That benefits only airline travelers and workers. Workers go there five days a week, but airline travelers once or twice a year or less. People buy groceries every week, have yoga classes, go to the library, attend events, buy household goods, go to parks, go to church, go to medical appointments, visit people, go to a wide variety of jobs, etc. In Seattle many people can take Link to a station and walk to those. In South King County many of those things are severely lacking around Link stations, and the airport is not a sufficient substitute for them.

          Yes. In Seattle Link is a real metro. It connects dense, urban neighborhoods. Federal Way Link is more of a commuter rail although the commuter destination is not Downtown Seattle but the airport and the (commuter) college. Metros tend to get a lot more riders than commuter trains.

      11. Mike Orr,

          90% of Tacoma is unwalkable? I feel like that’s a hefty exaggeration. It’s got a pretty normal street grid, even at the edge of the city. It’s got reasonable looking business districts on only sort of stroad-y streets. Those are unfortunate, but made a lot better by a street grid that allows for actually reasonable parallel routes.

          Pierce Transit is definitely not very good, especially relatively to Metro, but I think that’s a separate issue from walkability.

      12. Yeah, I would say that Tacoma is fairly walkable. It is surprisingly low density though (for such an interesting, older city). And yes, transit is terrible.

      13. “90% of Tacoma is unwalkable?”

          Walkability is based on the number of non-residential destinations in a 10- or 20-minute walk circle. In 90% of Tacoma you’re lucky if you have one supermarket in that, or one bus route that runs more than 30 minutes weekdays, 60 minutes weekends. That’s the system you have to use to even get to Tacoma Dome station or Federal Way station to spend another twenty minutes on Link to get to the airport or an hour to get to Seattle, much less something across town within Tacoma or Lakewood. That’s the walkability issue.

          I wish I could say better for Tacoma. My dad’s family has ties to it and it was a larger city than Everett before the automobile age. But it’s a typical American city where streetcar suburbs silently changed to automobile suburbs, and transit and walkability was left behind. The street grid is still there, but it takes a long time to walk anywhere on it. It makes me cry how much potential Tacoma has that it’s not using and hasn’t used for decades.

      14. Okay. You are forcing me to defend Tacoma.

          Tacoma is just as walkable as Seattle was when I moved to Fremont in 1995. There are several neighborhoods in Tacoma where just about everything you need is within walking distance, including Stadium, Hilltop, 6th Ave, Proctor and Lincoln. There are several more that have the walkable central district that could bloom into a 15 minute neighborhood with a little more density, including McKinley, Old Town, downtown, South Tacoma and Fern Hill.

          I pretty much never get in my truck in Tacoma, unless I’m leaving Tacoma and transit isn’t going to work to get out of the city, or I’m carrying something heavier than my bike trailer can carry. It sits in front of my house 6 days out of 7. I travel everywhere either by bike, foot or (very occasionally) local transit.

          The 1 line has actually improved to 15 or 20 minute frequencies, and is actually usable now, and the streetcar is 12 minutes to 20 minutes, and I use it occasionally as well.

          Given Tacoma is a third the size of Seattle circa 1995, that might actually be better than Seattle was then. Back then the 5 was usable, but that was just about all I used. I rode my bike everywhere else. Tacoma is the same, except now I’m old. So instead of it taking me 2 hours to get to the far reaches of Seattle, I can pretty much get anywhere I want to go in Tacoma in 20 minutes with a slow tootle on my bike.

          And the humans are, in my humble opinion, much cooler.

          Tacoma >> Seattle.

   2. Kent Des Moines is much closer to Pac highway and closer to Highline than originally thought.

      Yeah, it isn’t bad. Students (and faculty) pushed to have the station on the west side of the highway (since the college is the main attraction). Even though they failed they managed to get it further west then it could have been. The Seattle Times has a nice write-up: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/light-rails-push-to-federal-way-gives-students-workers-front-door-access/

      Because it’s so far from the Kent Des-Moines P&R, is Metro going to keep it?

      Since they are building (or have built) a big garage closer to the station my guess is they will just sell it. Even for buses it doesn’t make any sense anymore (as they will likely serve the station and the garage there instead of the old lot).

      Star Lake might become the least-used station with a parking garage…

      As I wrote elsewhere I expect Angle Lake ridership to go down by at least as much as Star Lake goes up. In other words if Star Lake has a thousand riders then Angle Lake will have lost at least a thousand riders. Angle Lake has quite a few riders and a really big parking lot — a lot of those riders will end up going to other lots.

      1. The older park-and-rides appear to not be owned by ST. So any decision to close them is an independent decision from Link station openings.

         Here’s a page I found showing annual occupancy samples from WSDOT-owned lots:

         https://wsdot.wa.gov/about/data/multimodal-mobility-dashboard/dashboard/central-puget-sound/interstate5-cps/park-and-ride.htm#detail

         There is a lot in Federal Way with 877 spaces just south of 320th that shows an occupancy in 2023 of just 3 percent (26 cars). The lot’s address is 32320 23rd Ave S, Federal Way.

         Of course, these lots provide parking for carpoolers in addition to transit riders. So what best happens is unique to each lot. But certainly if they aren’t being used or underused for many years they could be considered surplus and sold fully or partially.

         This barely used lot in Federal Way would be a nice TOD site as it’s just under 1000 feet from the Federal Way Link station. The site is already viewed for available land to enable an extension of 324th St across I-5.

         https://www.federalwaywa.gov/sites/default/files/Documents/Department/PW/Traffic/FWCCA_Factsheet_080922_EN.pdf

      2. @Al S
         The issue with the 877 space lot is that most people doesn’t know it exists, and it’s a PITA to access. 15 years ago when we moved to Fed Way that wasn’t the case.

         BTW, your last comment in this thread got cut off so that’s why am answering here.

      3. Before 2006, that unused lot was the Federal Way Transit Center. It’s still the terminus for a couple of peak express routes, the 177 and 193.

      4. The older park-and-rides appear to not be owned by ST. So any decision to close them is an independent decision from Link station openings.

         That would be true even if ST owned them. Anyway, the lot is owned by Metro and Metro is well aware of the new station (even if ST Express planners seemed to be caught by surprise).

      5. “own by at least as much as Star Lake goes up.”

         Yes I think everyone is expecting some garage shifting.

         I don’t think many fully understand that many Federal Way Link riders will be not be new transit riders but will instead be shifting from other stations. I expect drops from those transferring between Link and RapidRide A in addition to garage users. So I’m expecting lower ridership at both TIBS as well as Angle Lake in the first month.

         Will some shift from ST Express or Sounder? That’s a bit harder to determine. But the new Link garages are all large in the corridor — so it wouldn’t surprise me if most of those driving to a transit station switch garages, and some new riders will come from those that had previously found parking for transit difficult in South King.

         Anyway, I still read comments that imply that upcoming Federal Way Link riders are “new”. I’m sure there will be some new riders! It’s just I’m expecting that well over half of the Link riders at the new FWLE stations are already using transit of some kind.

      6. Will some shift from ST Express or Sounder?

         Very few will shift from Sounder. They are very different systems. Sounder is faster, only runs during peak and serves a different area. If there is a better alternative for you than Sounder (because it runs in the middle of the day, is closer to you, etc.) then you are taking that alternative right now.

         So I could see people shifting during peak from ST Express but my guess is very few. The 577 runs during peak (from Federal Way to downtown). The 578 runs off-peak (and also serves Auburn, etc.). The 577 has about 900 riders a day. That is two-way ridership. So even if each and every one of those riders shifted over to Link you would see an increase of less than 500. The schedule also gives us some clues as to what could happen. A lot of the trips are very early in the morning (when traffic is less of an issue). The buses aren’t especially frequent at any point (suggesting that crowding isn’t a big issue). It will be long time before ST changes the routes and they may leave those alone. However, Metro *will* get rid of a few routes (like the 177) but not that many people ride those buses. It will be hard to notice.

         That being said I think it will take a while for people to find what works best for them. I’m sure many will try Link and then go back to the 177/178. I think it is telling that the 515 is relatively popular. It peaked out at 1,400 riders even though it duplicates Link. From what I can tell an express bus from Federal Way saves more time (although to a certain extent it depends on where you are headed).

   3. I’m predicting Star Lake will have the lowest ridership in the Link network.

      1. Mike, I think the 2 Line stations will have lower ridership, it only has around 4,000 riders a day, compared to the 1 Line which has 78,000 riders a day (and going to get bigger with FWLE), of course Star Lake lacks development, but I just can’t be convinced, Shoreline North/185th only has a thousand riders a day, but I expect the number to get bigger with the upcoming rezoning, and it’s meant more for Shoreline residents than commuters, while Star Lake is meant for commuters (and residents in the area of course). I think Rainier Beach will have lower ridership (it is located in a semi-rural area). Even with the Lynnwood connection, I still expect the 2 Line’s ridership to be low in the Eastside (It’s majority of ridership will come from the 1 Line segment and I-90, we can all tell just by the ridership now). But we’ll see how long it takes for them to open it.

      2. until Boeing Access Road station opens…

      3. I’m personally expecting Pinehurst to have lower ridership but we won’t know until the middle of next year.

         Some of the Bellevue stations on the 2 Line may still be lower too — even after the segment across the bridge opens.

      4. For a park and ride driver coming from Tacoma or Puyallup, Star Lake is quicker access from I-5 compared to Federal Way Station, which requires driving through a lot of traffic to get to. Star Lake station will also get some transfer from the 183 bus. Not a lot, but not nothing.

      5. “ Mike, I think the 2 Line stations will have lower ridership, it only has around 4,000 riders a day, compared to the 1 Line which has 78,000 riders a day (and going to get bigger with FWLE)…”

         ST reports average daily ridership on Link in October as about 110,000 for 1 Line and just under 12,000 for 2 Line.

      6. Star Lake will also have a direct feed from 277th coming down the East Hill. There’s no Sounder station at 277th, and some people won’t be able to make a return trip on Sounder if they are returning early or late from Downtown Seattle.

      7. For a park and ride driver coming from Tacoma or Puyallup, Star Lake is quicker access from I-5 compared to Federal Way Station, which requires driving through a lot of traffic to get to

         If there is traffic getting to the Federal Way Station then there will be traffic along I-5 *and* to the Star Lake Station once you leave the freeway. Hard to see someone coming from the south and skipping the closer station. (Unless it is midday and they plan on skipping a bunch of stations in which case they will use TIBS.)

      8. “I’m personally expecting Pinehurst to have lower ridership but we won’t know until the middle of next year. ”

         Which neighborhood west or east of Star Lake station is as large or as dense as Lake City or Bitter Lake?

      9. I’m predicting Star Lake will have the lowest ridership in the Link network.

         That sounds reasonable. Right now the 185th has the lowest ridership on the main line. It has about 1,400 riders which is quite a bit higher than it was a year ago. The fundamentals for 185th are better. It is closer to bigger destinations, has more development close to it and better feeder buses. There are similarities. Both stations have parking garages and are in between stations that also have parking garages.

         But as mentioned it is also possible that a 2 Line station will be worse. There are a lot of stations with lower ridership but of course they will see a big increase when the train goes over the lake. But East Main only has about 300 riders right now. Marymoor has less than a thousand. It is quite possible neither gets as many as Star Lake a year from now.

      10. Which neighborhood west or east of Star Lake station is as large or as dense as Lake City or Bitter Lake?

          I think Al is assuming that the parking lot will be the main reason people use the station. This is reasonable considering Angle Lake gets a fair number of riders. Pinehurst Station is far more dependent on feeder bus service and Metro plans aren’t great.

      11. “Which neighborhood west or east of Star Lake station is as large or as dense as Lake City or Bitter Lake?”

          The Star Lake ridership will mostly come from park and ride users. As others have pointed out, the Federal Way’s garage can be more circuitous to use, especially from east of I-5. The Star Lake garage is also closer to the train platform than the Federal Way garage is. Some lazy car drivers will choose it just to save walking distance to the platform.

      12. “185th has the lowest ridership on the main line.”

          That’s the closest station to “downtown” Shoreline and City Hall, so if it’s lowest, that shows there’s something wrong in Shoreline. I ride Swift Blue from the station to the Aurora Village Costco, and it’s almost all single-family houses in between. There’s a community center that could probably become a larger destination and walkable area if the city tried. Most of the businesses are along Aurora, and City Hall is at 175th & Aurora, which isn’t even straight west but west and south. The library is all alone in another direction.

          I thought Shoreline had plans to density 185th and put a village there. I don’t see anything yetf

      13. Instead of taking the Swift Blue Line, try going west to Aurora, then walk north on the Interurban Trail to the transit center.

          All the density is along Aurora. It’s going to be a hard pull to get people interested in the Link station when it suffers from the same highway noise as Aurora, but has a lot less stuff already within walking distance.

      14. I haven’t looked at the zoning changes in Shoreline, but I suspect North City will grow, with apartments and density replacing the small, low-quality construction teardowns between North City proper and the 185th St station.

          If they zoned that area right, those 3 or 4 blocks will all be 5 story apartments or more in the next 10 or 20 years, and “downtown” North City will see some commercial expansion. Right now it’s got all the essential pieces to make it a really nice, walkable, dense little town.

      15. I agree with Delta, Boeing Access Road seems dead end. Shoreline North will have the lowest ridership for about 10 years (my estimate), while Shoreline South’s ridership will increase with the ongoing developments happening now. Star Lake (as of what I know) has no development going on, so it would be reasonable for it to have low ridership (with the freeway stops still being open). I can see the Rainier Valley stops having low ridership now, but I might have to agree with the fact Star Lake will have the lowest ridership, but Boeing Access Road actually might have good ridership (speaking of the industry density).

      16. I haven’t looked at the zoning changes in Shoreline, but I suspect North City will grow

          Here is a good zoning map of Shoreline. The area around the station is zoned “Mixed Use Residential, 70 feet”. There has already been some TOD (a new apartment building just north of the station). There is another building going in next to it (across 8th). Over time a lot of it will fill in. But like most of the stations north of Roosevelt the fundamentals aren’t great. The station is right next to the freeway. This limits the amount of land that can be developed. Shoreline Schools owns a lot of the land across the way and there isn’t much there.

          It is also fairly suburban and next to the freeway. This study mentions this in particular as being a problem (beyond just the amount of land that can be developed). Basically the folks there are likely to have a car just to get around. If you have a car it is likely you will use it (not the light rail) especially since the freeway ramp is so close.

          It really isn’t different than a lot of stations. It would not surprise me if it passes some of the others. Like so many of the stations it is highly dependent on the bus network. Metro didn’t do the station any favors. The 333 has decent frequency (especially for sprawling Shoreline) and it manages to bypass the station. Rather than crossing I-5 on 185th (or even just detouring to the station) the bus stays on the more congested 175th between 15th and Aurora. This means people on 175th (or close to it) don’t have a good connection to Link (even though 185th station is pretty close, especially by car). Speaking of which, my guess is this may have something to do with the relatively low ridership. The other stations may be more attractive to a lot of drivers.

      17. The 333’s corridor looks like it will always be middling to me, especially given the zoning map.

          In the shorter term, rerouting Swift Blue to 185th via Aurora would probably be the biggest improvement. In the longer term, the 348’s corridor looks pretty promising.

      18. Star Lake is not accessible but it has parking garage. If Federal Way or KDM is getting too popular, Star Lake will be the overflow station.

5. Like nearly every other light rail extension, this is technically a “gigaproject”.

   I suppose the value engineers projected a cost savings by sticking with the term “megaproject”.

   1. The term megaproject doesn’t mean that it cost millions of dollars, but instead is a nebulous term meaning that its scale dwarfs regular projects. As someone interested in megaprojects generally, I’ve noticed the term has been watered down over the years from undertakings like the three gorges dam to now an 8-mile 3-station light rail extension. I beg of you to not diminish the term further.

6. Just imagine what could have been with a fully elevated line in Rainier Valley… instead we got trains hitting people on wheelchairs

   1. The citizens in the Rainer Valley didn’t want elevated.
      I was at the scoping meetings back then.
      Half of the people wanted tunnels, and the others wanted at grade.
      It was unanimous that nobody wanted elevated, because of their perception of the NYC Subway elevated lines.

7. I wish more stations near major roads were built to span the major road with entrances on both sides. 320th is a pretty significant barrier to pedestrians, and I imagine this will be a barrier to urban redevelopment of the Federal Way Commons mall on the south side.

   1. Yes I agree. 320th seems terrifying to walk across.

      To Federal Way’s credit, they did install a new pedestrian crosswalk signal on 320th just west of the station (21st Ave) this past year where the unsignalized left turn pockets from 320th were. However that doesn’t mean that drivers will always stop.

   2. Yes, that’s a basic station-access feature that should have been part of the minimum requirements for stations, like center platforms and down escalators.

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