This is an open thread for miscellaneous transit and land-use topics. There will be no Sunday Movie this week. Instead Sunday will have another Link article, and next week will have five non-Link articles.
16 Replies to “Weekend Open Thread”
Comments are closed.
The expected opening of Pinehurst Station in June was the proverbial lede buried in the previous article about maintenance closures.
Is it still Metro’s plan to have route 67 or 75 u-turn back to Northgate? If the 75 is being turned back in order to have service on 5th Ave NE, why can’t the 67 do that?
Pinehurst will probably add enough time to the full Link run (what is it, 40 seconds? 1 minute?) to run out of train cars if we didn’t have East Link open beforehand.
I’m writing from Jersey City, NJ, a vastly underrated historic, vibrant and seemingly well-run city approaching 300K that has long been overshadowed by New York City — the World Trade Center is directly across the river. Jersey City is full of bikes and pedestrians, is well served by PATH trains (Port Authority Trans-Hudson — some of which go to NYC), ferries crossing the river, and the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail line on the NJ side. It is now also overrun with delivery robots and delivery e-bikes. PATH has been a connection to lower Manhattan, Hoboken and Newark for over a century. Meanwhile, the modern light rail line connecting communities on this side of the river seems quite well used. There are enough 60-80 story towers along it that I can’t count them all; that surely helps. The fabric is an incredible mix of very historic human-scaled neighborhoods, parks with a new layer of Manhattan-style density. The place is crawling with interesting restaurants and shops, full of life every day of the week, from morning to night. The views are actually better here than from NYC because here you see the river plus the Statue of Liberty, bridges and the Manhattan skyline all at once and there’s less around to get in the way. Jersey City feels like an American urban success story that hasn’t really been told.
Jersey City absolutely is an urban success story. It’s a poster child for the YIMBY “if you zone it they will build” argument. The long time mayor is very thoughtful and disciplined; he understands that it is not simply good zoning, but developers need a stable regulatory environment so they have the confidence to make long term investments, and the zoning/permitting process cannot be an extractive political like it is in most large cities. It’s fine to have requirements like X% affordable or $Y of fees, but the key is to have those requirements fixed and not negotiable. In LA, city officials have objected to removing parking requirements because in California a parking requirement is the necessary legal nexus for the city to layer on sundry requirements in lieu of providing parking; this is exactly the wrong mindset for addressing the housing crisis.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jersey-citys-mayor-on-how-the-city-built-so-much-housing/id1056200096?i=1000711360932
Seattle to it’s credit generally does not have the extractive permitting mindset. Amazon notably built it’s first wave of office towers (the ones around Bezos’s balls) with negligible political investment: they had the existing right to build office towers and then did so with little need for public consultations. Seattle needs to expand the land that has by-right mid/high rise development opportunity (essentially expand the urban village framework to more (or all!) of Seattle).
Bellevue also has been very developer friendly, at least in its CBD, in a wave that is simillar to Jersey City, and hopefully will stick with the same approach in the BedRed and I90 corridors.
Redmond, on the other hand, have developed high quality midrise housing but in a tightly managed political process. The outcome in downtown Redmond is good, but around Marymoor and Overlake we see the downside as major projects don’t move forward as developers haggle with the city on how much surplus extraction is to occur in a given project.
Jersey City has been called the Sixth Borough.
My friend lived in one of the apartment towers near Pavonia PATH station, the first station near Newport station, the first station on the Jersey side on the waterfront. He has a New York accent and lived for years across the river on Hudson Street in Manhattan, and worked in Midtown. He’s retired now and living elsewhere in Jersey City.
He calls PATH “commuter rail” because of the wide stop spacing to the suburbs, but it runs every 5-15 minutes 24 hours with some trains to Christoper Street-33rd Street and the rest to the World Trade Center, so it’s essentially like the subways, just slightly less frequent and a lower fare.
He said on 9/11 the area around the World Trade Center was all offices and became a ghost town at 5pm, but afterward more residential went in and by the mid 2000s 10,000 people lived there and it had become a 24-hour neighborhood.
Yes, the Jersey side has better views.
I saw the Hudson-Bergen light rail there on the surface. It didn’t look like it got much ridership but I didn’t explore it, and that was twenty years ago.
PATH is legally and historically commuter rail – mostly an artifact of the history of the Hudson and Manhattan Railroad. But it’s always been an odd ball, and doesn’t really serve the suburbs in a meaningful way (I don’t think “suburb” is the right way to think about Newark).
New York has such a strong commuter and cultural draw that I don’t know how useful of a comparison it is for Seattle. HBLR is probably a good comparison to the 2 Line starter line though.
It’s just a question of terminology, and we aren’t limited to official legal terms. Most American commuter rail is a few runs weekday mornings to downtown, and a few in the afternoon the other way, and people associate “commuting” with “going to work”. But it originally meant traveling on a multi-trip discount ticket, comparable to our monthly passes. So for people who traveled often enough to need such a pass, regardless of why or when they were traveling. Regional rail like this should run at least every 10-30 minutes full time, for the same reason that cars are on highways for more than just going to work or at peak hours.
New Bus Path Through International District
Right now the West Seattle Expresses run via SR99 because for them to use the busway would add probably seven to ten minutes to their 3rd and Columbia to Delridge time. However, Ross and others of us have suggested that improving the Fourth South off-ramp and adding a Fifth South on-ramp (not easy but doable) would make the interchange between the West Seattle Freeway and the busway much better than it is today. If further improvements to the busway were made to ensure that buses are not delayed by cross-traffic — grade separate Holgate and dig a short underpass under Royal Brougham Way — transit time differences would fall to perhaps four to seven minutes.
Not good enough; I agree.
But wait, there’s more.
Notice the little mention of an “underpass under Royal Brougham Way”. You probably though “why in the world would you want to do that? Well, if you did that and ran it fifty yards north, you’d be on the other side of the Line 1 tracks. And do you know what would be straight north of you when you popped out? The rump of the old HOV ramp to Seattle Way.
Ohhh, now you’re talking; stay away from the stadium crowds on Fourth Avenue between RBW and Seattle Way? That’s pretty good, but they still ruin Fourth that far north.
Indeed they do. But they don’t ruin Fifth, and there’s a solitary northbound mixed bike and parking lane on Fifth which could [abracadabra-presto-chango] become a northbound bus lane where the cars are parked. And surely, if you get the buses off Fourth South north of RBW you could take one of the southbound Fifth Avenue South lanes for a southbound bus laneh. If you continue with this sort of magic to Washington Street, you have passed a LOT of traffic on Fourth.
At this point you have two paths from which to choose. The first, cheapest and most direct is to make Washington bus-only with commercial deliveries between Fourth and Fifth, Prefontaine two-way bus-only street and run the Third Avenue buses right into it, diagonally across the five-way intersection. Second Avenue buses would turn off Second at Washington.
Of, if you want to avoid a new light cycle at Fourth and Washington, continue on north a block on a rising structure on both side of Fifth, turn onto Yesler and connect to Second and Third that way. Fourth Avenue buses would turn left at Washington and right onto Fourth.
I think this solves the “it will take too long to get downtown” objection of replacing WSLE with Better Bus Service and vastly improve the connection to UW from West Seattle. The buses that now go on SR99 would take the new path, stopping at the SoDo busway station to deliver riders to Link for a quick ride to points north or south. But they wouldn’t FORCE people going another mile and a half to Third and Cherry to change to the train. Sure, some would, but most would just stay on this new, faster route through the International District.
There are three major capital elements that can’t be ignored; the overcrossing at Holgate is one, but if Link is to prosper in the future it will need to be automated and that will require that bridge anyway.
The other is the undercrossing at Lower Brougham Way; but it probably wouldn’t be too expensive, depending on the junk in the ground below the roadway and the Link ROW. It’s basically a two lane highway underpass. What, $50 million?
The third is the rising structure between the existing one and whatever is going to be built where the Salvation Army is today. It’s a quarter mile of busway structure. Another $50 million?
That’s a whole lot less than WSLE, even as a Delridge stub. The thing is this solves the problem of West Seattle buses being delayed if they go to the SoDo junction to leverage Link.
I’m sure I’ve left out some element, but I think it’s worth investigating. There isn’t all that much capital required.
I agree with most of what you said, Tom. But I disagree that running buses on SoDo (with nothing more than ramps) is “not good enough”. It is common to reach a point where a project is good enough without being ideal. Northgate Link is not perfect. For someone who commutes to downtown it is significantly slower than the old 41. Depending on the timing of the train it could end up being five to ten minutes slower. But this is good enough, given everything else it gives you (like a fast trip to the UW).
A bus that goes down SoDo gives riders things they don’t get from the current routing. One is the connection to Link. West Seattle Link would give them that too. But there is more. First, it gives them a connection to the main line going both directions. Thus reverse direction trips (e. g. Alki to SeaTac) involve one transfer, not two. The current bus route is very fast but it bypasses parts of downtown, forcing them into long walks. It also hurts some transfers. A trip to Amtrak requires a long walk. A future trip to East Link requires backtracking (Google recommends the Symphony Station). Thus while the express nature of the C and H is great for riders heading to north or central downtown it misses southern downtown (and all of its connections). Many riders would be better off with the slower route through CID.
More to the point, the vast majority would be better off than they would with West Seattle Link. There are bound to be people that lose out. Some would prefer the existing routing. Others would benefit from West Seattle Link. But you reach a point fairly quickly where this approach benefits the vast majority of riders. Consider this paragraph you wrote:
The buses that now go on SR99 would take the new path, stopping at the SoDo busway station to deliver riders to Link for a quick ride to points north or south. But they wouldn’t FORCE people going another mile and a half to Third and Cherry to change to the train. Sure, some would, but most would just stay on this new, faster route through the International District.
But if the route is actually a little bit slower it is still better than West Seattle Link. That is the main thing. It is like self-driving buses. They don’t have to be perfect. They just have to be better than regular bus drivers. In this case it would be better simply because it offers both options. Riders can still connect to Link while retaining their one-seat ride to downtown (as far north as South Lake Union). The connection to Link might be a bit slower (than West Seattle Link) for those headed north but it would be dramatically faster for those reversing directions. Likewise the trip downtown might be a bit slower to some parts of downtown but it serves more of downtown. By simply offering both it is a huge improvement, even if neither option is ideal.
It is worth noting that the bus is not that slow from SoDo to downtown. As I write this it takes 9 minutes on the 101/150 to get from SoDo to 4th & Madison. Symphony to SoDo is about 8 minutes. But that doesn’t count the time to get from the platform. In other words, it is basically a wash for much of downtown. Obviously the West Seattle buses would move to Third but I’m sure it would be similar.
But I agree, we shouldn’t stop there. We should continue to make the buses faster. It can be an iterative thing. Once you get the ramps you are most of the way there. As you noted, bridges over the busway would also help Link. If we added a bridge at Holgate and another one at Lander then Link would be effectively grade-separated from Beacon Hill to Lynnwood. It would also help buses like the 101 and 150 as well as the ST expresses. This is a big deal. The buses on the SoDo Busway carry more riders than West Seattle Link is supposed to carry. Current plans are to make their trip worse. Changes like the one you suggest would make their trip better.
There are just a lot more trips that can be improved by taking this approach. This is true the day you connect West Seattle to the SoDo Busway. But as we improve the pathway it not only helps those rides but a lot more. In contrast any improvement in West Seattle Link would require a major, extremely expensive extension that would be very hard to justify.
I think an underpass in SODO would be highly prone to flooding? Maybe a bilge system could help…
An intriguing idea. Maybe send a written comment to the ST board; but please use the city ordinance name of the district: Chinatown International District (CID).
My random annoyance of the week: Route 60 is signed “N Beacon Hill – Westwood Village” when heading south from Georgetown. It happens to share a stop (13th and Bailey) with the northbound Route 60, signed “Broadway First Hill – Beacon Hill”. On some apps, only the first part of the head sign is shown. So when you check the schedule to get to Beacon Hill from Georgetown, you’re deciding between “Broadway First Hill” and “N Beacon Hill”.
Seems like an easy fix – stop having Route 60 signed with N Beacon Hill once it leaves the stop at Lander – but it did make me read the wrong time from my phone, which lead to a 20 minute wait in the cold instead of a 2 minute one.
Also: are there any other stops where buses heading in opposite directions on the same route share stops mid route? Seems unusual to me
South Kirkland P&R frequently picks up riders going in the wrong direction. There aren’t specific bays for each route to pull into, so inexperienced riders can get on the wrong bus if they aren’t reading the complete destination sign.
I’ve had a similar thought about the 365 at Shoreline South station. Northbound to Shoreline North or southbound to Northgate/Northwest Hospital. Both head north on 5th from the same bay at Shoreline South. Which way to go south again?
Same problem (or worse) if at NW hospital. Do you want to go south to Northgate or north to Shoreline South? Same stop with one bus heading toward final stop of Northgate and the other to Shoreline North.
Lynnwood Link project make the mistake at three stations: South Shoreline has Route 365 in two directions; North Shoreline has Route 348 in two directions; Mountlake Terrace has Route 331 in two directions; all three stations have plenty of curb space for each route to have separate bays.
Riders have to be careful at Four Freedoms and NW Hospital.
I headed to Federal Way Downtown on the 1 Line yesterday (Saturday) for some last-minute Christmas stocking shopping. In Rainier Valley, the train was fare checked and a pair of riders sitting near me asked the “ambassadors” if they could get to Sumner via Link. The response was “no”, and they should “go back to IDS and transfer to a Sounder train” to get to Sumner. Remember, it’s Saturday at about 1130am and there won’t be another southbound Sounder train until Monday morning! I perked up and informed the pair that Sounder trains won’t be running until Monday. The ambassadors had a “really?” look on their faces and then one of them recalled that Sounder trains don’t run on weekends.
While I was scrolling, looking for connections from FW Station to Sumner, the pair got off the train at Othello and headed back to downtown to take the ambassadors’ second recommendation (594 to Tacoma). Unfortunately, I didn’t find the 578 connection at Federal Way until after the pair had left the train.
I don’t expect fare ambassadors to have an encyclopedic knowledge of all the route maps connected with Link. But I would think they should know how to search connections and know that Sounder trains don’t run on weekends. They were, however, very friendly as they dispensed their bad information.
I feel like someone with “ambassador” in their job title should be able to direct a lost passenger in the right direction. Does everyone need to know that you take the 578 to Sumner? Probably not. But I feel like a Sound Transit employee with a public facing job really should. And yeah, mentioning Sounder on a weekend is just ridiculous
From Othello, going downtown to catch the 594 is terrible advice. It takes an hour to get from Tacoma to Sumner if Sounder isn’t running, and that route involves going to Federal Way to catch the 578 anyways. And if you’re going to catch a cab anyways, might as well do it from Federal Way which isn’t really any further from Sumner.