126 Replies to “Open Thread”

  1. I got the early bus today (6:29 instead of the usual 9:04) and it took just 13 minutes instead of the usual 30 or so. I’m only able to get up early because there’s no crying baby right now, so we’ll see if I can keep this up for the long term.

    1. Hey, doing a re-post now that we have an open thread:

      “LaHood’s comments represent a significant change from the policy statements of Bush Administration DOT Secretary Mary Peters, who repeatedly shunned streetcar projects in favor of proposals for bus rapid transit lines.”

      This is a quote from a blog post on LaHood coming out for streetcars (and declaring Portland a model city) over at Transport Politic.


  2. Going to my first Mariners game of the year tonight, and I’m excited! Unfortunately, getting back from the ballpark is so much harder now. **** you, Ma Peters.

    I live a few miles from the Lynnwood Transit Center, but evening service northbound is only hourly, so I used to drive down to Northgate, take the 41 to the game, and ride the shuttle service back.

    Now, obviously, that’s not possible. The funny thing is the way my options work out.

    511 to Lynnwood TC departs Busway and Royal Brougham at:


    41 to Northgate leaves 6th and Atlantic at:

    Which basically means this. I have to pick where I leave my car (no bus back to my home that late) at either Northgate or Lynnwood. Which one? Well, it depends how long I think the game will go. If I think we’ll be done by 9:40 (2.5 hours) the 41 is an excellent choice. But if I do that and it goes long, I’m stuck with a long wait and getting home at midnight. But if I park in Lynnwood and Jarrod strikes out 10 guys and the game’s over in exactly 2 hours and 20 minutes, then I’ve just missed one bus and have a full hour wait for another one.


    1. I doubt it’ll go just 2.5 hours, unless it’s a blowout and you don’t feel like watching the end.

      Of course I say that and Jarrod will strike out ten and it’s a 3-1 game, and then you’d have to wait. It’s a really sucky place to be in.

      The game should be awesome, the weather has been amazing.

      1. I’m really excited for the game. I would have gone last week but I had pre-existing plans for every single game night. So I’m stoked to go now:)

        I know the 511 is probably my best choice…just kinda stinks. I miss me my shuttle:)

      2. Well, my boss grabbed me on my way out the door so I missed my 511 and said, screw it, I’ll drive to Northgate. Turns out to be a great move: I walked out of the stadium and saw my 511 drive past, and hit a 41 almost immediately, though it seemed to be an unscheduled trip–I wonder if Metro is quietly adding trips on routes that lost shuttle service?


        Washburn: 7 IN, 5 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 3 BB, 0 WP, 9 K

        Almost 10 strikeouts, and a 4-2 contest that saw only three half-innings where runs were scored. So things worked out:)

      1. That’s true, I looked at that, but by the time I take something into downtown and transfer it only saves me 5 minutes, and I might as well just sit on Atlantic…

  3. Been trying out my RRFP ORCA. Can’t wait for my Microsoft ID to be folded into Business Passport (at least that’s what I assume will happen).

    Someone was asking about that in a previous thread, so the response is The ORCA’s chip includes your RRFP information.

    The Reader is perfect level for my wheelchair. In my case, a shirt with a chest pocket is the best place for holding my ORCA. This weekend, I’m going to look for one of those plastic lanyards (remember: do NOT punch a hole into your ORCA).

    My brother’s in town from Virginia this weekend so I’m going to take him for a ride and show off our transit system. He lives in the largest city (by population) in Virginia and his bus runs only once an hour from 5:45 AM to 6:45 PM Weekdays & Saturdays Only (ew). This is why I’ll never complain about here.

    ORCA Early Adopters: Enjoy using your cards :D

      1. Mine’s loaded with an E-Purse to get me through April, then it’s setup to Autoload for May passes and beyond @ 75 cents worth

        This weekend, I’m going to visit my father in Pierce County and see how Pierce buses are holding up

  4. Same, I was at Alki yesterday enjoying the ladies and Tully’s milkshakes =D

    I did get a chance to check out what the First Hill Streetcar would be like on 12th Avenue. I’d highly support that routing (Northbound on 12th, Southbound on Broadway/Boren)

    I was mildly concerned about the mass of trolley bus wire.

    And finally, Airport Link is being wired up!

  5. we should stay on the mariners transit service. it’s intolerable. i live in phinney ridge, went to the game friday night, and all the regular buses were packed like sardines before they got as far as University St, and that’s 30 minute city intervals. it took me over an hour to get home. my buddy parked at eastgate transit center, and after the game waited an hour for a 554. Who wants to stand around for an hour at 10:30 at night at the I.D. station? a city should not work like this. metro needs to find loopholes to these federal rules and provide adequate service.

    also curious to hear about ORCA early adopters experiences. i ride infrequently so am excited about the e-purse option. i usually have to carry a roll of quarters and dollar bills.

    1. It’s going to be tough when the FTA response is as dismissive as it’s been. I agree we need to keep trying, but I’m not optimistic

      Getting my ORCA card today…woohoo! Last year my M’s game bag contained a bag full of quarters and dollar bills (and some paper CommTrans tickets) in addition to my scorecards, jacket and water bottle. I’m awfully excited about the e-purse…

      I wish taking the bus from my house to Boeing didn’t take 4 times longer than driving so I could get a pass already

      Boy that’s a rambling comment. Yay open thread!

  6. In the blog Sea-Tac annoys me, Andrew Smith uses metres instead of feet and inches. Does that mean there is hope that metres and kilogrammes will be eventually widely accepted in the US?

    1. I don’t think the metric system will get full-scale adoption here for a long time, the federal government pushed hard in the 1980s and it never went anywhere. How I see it:

      1) Our system is easily the best system that isn’t the metric system, and is far better than any other system that the metric system has replaced. It does have some of the advantages of the metric system, for example an volume ounce of water weighs a weight ounce. Other countries that used the “customary” system or the very similar “Imperial” system have had incomplete metricifications. In Vancouver office space is still rented in square feet, and the speed signs use miles-per-hour in England still. An Australian friend I met in Tokyo told me she was “five-foot-eleven”, not 180 centimeters.

      In India customary measurements were outlawed in 1962 though I saw tons of use still when I was last there in 2007.

      2) America is large enough that it can keep its own system and not have to worry about conversion that much (how often do you have to do conversions?). Because of this there’s little motivation to switch.

      3) Our system actually has a few advantages over the metric system. The metric system was based around some fairly arbitrary physical values that have little to do with the human existance. For example, a meter is one-hundred-millionth of the distance from the equator to the north pole, what does that have to do with everyday life? Even in otherwise entirely metricised countries like Japan and Sweden, cookbooks still use cups, teaspoons, etc. because they are more convenient.

      So it’ll take a long time, and even then it’ll just be partial.

      1. I must say, from an engineering perspective, Metric is *far* easier. But from a practical point of view, you’re right, we’ll never change.

        I ran Cross Country in high school and ever since have thought about walking or running distances in meters.

      2. The way blocks are set up in King County (1/16 mile) also converts well to metric to around 100 m per block making it pretty easy to estimate walking distance and time.

      3. Seconds are already considered metric in the SI and everything else follows from it.

        Don’t even think about messing with time.

      1. I grew up accustomed to centimeter body heights. So I say I’m 155 cm tall. Feet-inches are okay but just inches are confusing.

    2. I don’t know about customary measures being any more intuitive than metric measures as both were arbitrary. It’s all about having a frame of reference that the user is accustomed to. That is also why taking the unit conversion approach to metrication will fail. You have to think in metric to get metric.

      For medicine and healthcare, I say go metric all the way. Using two systems runs the risk of confusion like overdoses. I feel more comfortable taking 5 mL of medicine than one whatever spoon. I’m glad we’re not defining most medicine doses in terms of vague units.

      A lot of stuff in the U.S. is actually hidden metric and people don’t realize that. I’ve been noticing a trend towards rounded metric sizes in food and drink packaging, cleaning products, personal hygiene products, etc. Look closely. If the metric lobby ever gets to convincing Congress to amend the Fair Packaging and Labeling Act, we’ll slowly see the old units disappear. Even the nickel, yes, the 5¢ coin, weighs 5.000 grams.

      The inches and pounds we use are defined in terms of metric units. There hasn’t been a standard pound weight or yard stick since 1959. All SI units* are defined in terms of natural phenomena that are observable and measurable. (* except for the unit of mass, the kilogram which is still an artifact and losing tiny bits of mass every year.)

      I recommend the US Metric Association’s website metric.org and http://www.MetricationMatters.com as excellent resources on the metric system.

      1. Very well said. I totally agree with you. Unfortunately, human beings are creatures of habit and old habits die hard. So it is going to take a long to change to metric.

        Nevertheless, as it is now, in science and technology, almost everthing is in metric; at school also, all the students are taught metric. The only problem is that by the time they leave Grade 12, there is no incentive to use metric since businesses and industry are reluctant to full convert; so they stuck with the habit of using and thinking in other system.

      2. That’s not true that both were arbitrary. A physical cup is about a measure cup, not a liter.

      3. I’m not arguing against the metric system, I use the metric system, as you pointed out. But don’t tell me that it’s less arbitrary than customary units. It’s based on arbitrary physical constants that have little (celsius) or nothing (meter) to do with the human experience and has been adapted downward from there.

        Customary units were based roughly on measurements that are close to the human condition (feet, hands, cup, etc.). That is its only advantage over the metric system.

        And I don’t agree that making illegal the use of customary units will make them disappear, because they haven’t disappeared in the UK or even in India where they have been illegal for more than a generation.

      4. The units are no less arbitrary, but they ARE more interconnected than Customary units, and also much simpler to scale. Scaling from mm to cm to m to km is a lot simpler than going 1/16ths to inches to feet to yards to miles.

      5. Neither am I arguing for making customary units become illegal, but rather for metric system to be more widely used and accepted.

        However, the argument that customary units has advantages because it is based more closely to human conditions, I find it hard to comprehend.

        As I said, human beings are creatures of habit and old habits are hard to change. I am sure if a child in the US grows up and uses the metric system in everyday life, then later learns about customary units, he would find it very difficult to see the advantages customary units have over metric units.

  7. Silly question but can I exchange my ticket book ( $2 coupons ) for a Orca card? or do I have to wait until I used them up…

    1. I already emailed them and asked about that. They said that tickets could NOT be exchanged for ORCA value. So they need to be used up first.

      Though you can obviously still order the card now while it’s free and just wait to start using it until you’ve used up your tickets.

  8. On days like today, I’m pretty sure the Ballard streetcar needs to stretch to Golden Gardens :-D

    1. Amen to that! I think that current bus service to Golden Gardens is inadequate because you have to either a) take the 44 to the end of the line/locks and walk, b) try to catch a ride on the elusive 46 (that wouldn’t be able to take you back into Ballard after sunset), or c) take the 17/48 to the end of the line and walk down the big @$$ hill (my option of choice).

      But on that note, I appreciate that Golden Gardens is difficult to transit to because I think it helps with the strong amount of locals there – not as frequented by tourists as Alki my a long shot.

    2. On good weather, I just bike to Golden Gardens. The Burke-Gilman now extends to the park entrance, except for the missing link through Ballard.

  9. My pet peeve is that most bus service to the Tukwila Sounder station is terrible. There are two local milk run buses (110 & 140) that run from the Renton transit center and only meets the train (yet often missing it by a few minutes!!! (arrive at 7:38am for the 7:26 train?!?). So even if I were to ride in on Sounder and home on Metro, I’ve got 2 buses and long walk to get back to my car… Or I can ride 2 buses then the Sounder to leave my car at home…

    Or I can ride my bicycle to the station from home, not too bad getting into Renton, but getting from Renton to the station is not fun. Sidewalks are tolerable but the streets are dangerous in that area during rush hour traffic. (As in it’s busy but not busy enough to bring it to a grind where it’s again safe to ride a bike in traffic.)

    Anyway the complaint is that Sounder at Tukwila is not integrated well into the Metro system.

    1. Sounder at Tukwila will change when Tukwila gets a full station. I think you’ll see redevelopment around the station, as it’s a short, guaranteed commute into the city.

      1. I guess I don’t see the need for a station to have service to it. My point is that Sounder could get even more riders if there was a way to get to the stop. The parking lot is too small for more cars, and I’m not in favor of building giant parking lots to get more riders. I want more buses to swing by more often and from more routes.

        And Renton has a Transit center, why didn’t they time the bus to get to the Sounder station in time for the train?? Seems totally disjointed.

      2. Talk to Metro about Renton.

        The issue with Tukwila is that it will get direct development as soon as there’s a station plan. The walking distance area there will likely see apartments, condos, and other space, but I don’t think that will happen until the station is designed and funded.

      3. That connection works well if you are trying to get to Renton. What about the 140? It runs every 15 minutes.

    2. Had to chuckle at that. One of my coworkers calls it “Trashwila” referring specifically to the temporary station

  10. Also, I guess this is why they’re doing the early roll out but the ORCA reader on my 372->Bothell was down with an error message this morning at 9:00am.

    1. I read about this. There’s no pattern to the *three* different colors (teal, green and blue) buses and shelters are painted:

      The colors we on the committee chose were very bright and very Northwest,” said Metro’s Paint Shop Chief Jeff Sattler. “We paint the bottom half of the bus yellow, which is a safety choice. Then the top half is painted either teal, blue or green – more of an aesthetic choice to fit our community.”


  11. How will transferring work with ORCA card holders? For example, if a person who pays cash transfers from one bus to another, he uses his transfer for the second bus, thereby paying only one fare for the two trips. But when a ORCA card holder leaves one bus, then wait for another, when he boards the second bus and taps his card to the ORCA box, will he be charged another fare? If so, that doesn’t seem fair.

    1. No, he won’t be charged twice. The card knows what fare he paid, and at what time, and carries the transfer automatically, as well as calculating any upgrades.

      If you pay a Metro 1-zone Peak fare at 7:00 AM, and at 7:30 you transfer onto another Metro 1-zone bus, you will be charged no additional fare. If you transfer onto a two-zone route, you will be charged the upgrade. Same if you transfer to ST Express or Sounder. The transfer period lasts 2 hours from the initial tap.

      What I don’t know is how transfers will work bus-to-Link or vice verse.

  12. Two questions:

    1) Has metro thought about opening up the transit tunnel on the weekends once link is up and running?

    2) How is ORCA going to work on the streetcar given that there aren’t any readers on the SLUT?

    1. Doesn’t this present a bunch of “correct fare” issues when dealing with zones and getting people to pay when the supervisors aren’t around?

      I was under the impression that we were implementing a “tap in-tap out” type system similar to Hong Kong (ocotopus) or London (oyster).

      On another note, why does it seem that these transit cards are all named after marine life?

      1. I’m still not clear about how the RFZ will be handled with ORCA and how zones will be calculated if you don’t have to tap-in and out. The website says to just tap once, but is it really a tap-in and -out system. Any feedback from the field yet? Guess I’ll have to go get one and find out, even though I already have a PugetPass.

      2. Bus won’t be tap-in/tap-out, you’d tap once on a bus: when leaving the bus after boarding in the RFZ, or during boarding at all other times.

        Tap-in/tap-out is only for Link (& Sounder? Not sure).

      3. Still not seeing how they’ll calculate zone fares based on one tap. Maybe I’m missing something.

      4. Hmm, I see your point. But…how would a bus do tap-in/tap-out unless it is location aware? Light rail is one thing, the readers are on the stations, but the bus-based readers are on the bus, which doesn’t (currently) know exactly where it is.

        My guess is the operator will enter something on their little control panel indicating whether departing customers should be charged 1- or 2-zone fare. So on the 194, once you cross the city line, they would push a button. That is, however, purely speculative. Other ideas?

      5. Operator input was my thought too. But say you get on the 174 in SODO, tap-in, get off in Federal Way. Should be a 2-zone fare, but the card has no way of knowing that you didn’t just get off at the next stop. Same things goes if you just tap-off, the card doesn’t know where you got on. This is what confuses me. I can see how it would work on express buses leaving the RFZ, they’ll just assume anyone who didn’t tap-in must have gotten on in downtown and when they tap-out they’ll charge the appropriate fare. All along I assumed ORCA would be tap-in, tap-out so I never really gave it any thought. Anyone else know how it works?

      6. Sounder and Link are both tap on, tap off.

        1-Zone buses are set to charge a one-zone fare. Two-Zone buses are set (by the operator) to 2-Zone fares. If you’re only going to travel in one zone, tell the driver and they change it for you.

      7. The orcacard.com glossary page mentions something called a ‘Zone Fare Preset’ on each card, which “identifies the number of zones you usually ride.” It seems like you could set this to 1-zone and not have to ask the driver to change the bus settings. Maybe someone with an ORCA card can see if they can find this in the web interface.

      8. I saw that in the interface. Not sure how it helps though. Does it mean that if you say you always do 1-zone, then you can ride the 595 all the way to Gig Harbor for just a couple dollars?

      9. I think the bus operator is relying on rider honesty. Unfortunately having a card makes it a lot easier to lie by omission compared to using cash or an under-valued pass. The efficiency gains are probably worth the small loss in fares. Fare inspectors would be able to crack down on this practice.

      10. I guess that’s a potential problem, but right now someone could do the same cheap multi-zone trip with a cash fare. Without a tap-in/tap-out system there’s no way to check.

        Point-to-point buses that cross zones (like the 212) could possibly be programmed to ignore zone presets entirely, since there is no way anyone could take it solely within one zone.

      11. In the Gig Harbor example with a 1-zone pass, the machine will be expecting $3 in fare. So it will either deduct the additional fare from the e-purse or the driver will tell you that you owe the balance in cash. And being a Pierce Transit operated bus, they will insist you pay. Pierce Transit operators have low tolerance for passengers who do not pay the fare.

      12. Right, but what if the rider isn’t going all the way to Seattle, just into Tacoma? That’s still a 1-zone trip, so you can’t require a 3-zone fare.

      13. But in the example, the person was going from Seattle to Gig Harbor. In your scenario, just tell the driver you’re going to Tacoma. Just say it right after you say “Good morning.”

      14. On another note, why does it seem that these transit cards are all named after marine life?

        Because implementing them involves a substantial sunk cost?

      15. When Portland joins up, perhaps their card could be the Otter Card? Keeping with the O as the initial letter…

      16. Spokane already has a stored-value RFID card, and it doesn’t have any cool name at all:( Boise has them, too.

      17. What funny acronyms can we create from those names?

        Nah, just have them use our card, we were first.

        We should push to have ORCA accepted from Vancouver, B.C. to Eugene, OR and on Amtrak Cascades. Now that’s ONE regional card to rule them ALL.

  13. I’ve been resisting the temptation to split open my ORCA card. I think I’ll have to get a new one to do that.

    Looks like everyone has been enjoying the photos. I’m actually getting hits for once :D

    1. And I used it 3 times today. Since I have a U-Pass, it’s a bit odd spending money on bus fare, but it’s also so much fun. Just hold it up next to it, get two low beeps (which sound like warning beeps–and they may be since it’s only got $3 left), and you’re done!

      Anyone know what the threshold is for the “low balance” message? And what sort of beeps is everyone else hearing?

      1. I saw the low balance message at $2.50. You saw it at $3? I bet it kicks in at like $5 because you might not have enough for Sounder below that. What’s the maximum Sounder fare these days?

  14. The city of Bellevue has already indicated its preference for a tunnel downtown. However, has anyone figured out how this will be financed?

    1. I really hope they have a tunnel. ST2 didn’t allocate enough funds for one though, so they’d have to raise the extra $2 or 300m with an LID or from other local taxes. Actually, since the Eastside BNSF corridor commuter rail almost definitely is a no-go and it says that those funds, if there is no plan in place for BNSF corridor rail, will go to improvements in transit along the 405, I wonder if downtown Bellevue counts as the 405 enough for some or all of that money to go to the tunnel…

  15. Has anyone noticed that the hybrid Metro buses seem to emit more soot in their exhaust than the non-hybrid models?

    1. Did Metro abandon biodiesel fuel last year because of the high prices? Biodiesel is known to emit less particulate matter when burned.

    1. Washington State Ferries has multi-rides on their Wave2Go system which allows you to purchase multiple rides at a discounted price. They might be implementing that into ORCA eventually.

  16. Why aren’t we stamping our feet and holding our breath until they bring back the Waterfront Trolley? The track is already there, fer gawdsake.

    Just askin’……

    1. I have a feeling it will return when we get the First Hill streetcar. It will have tracks that go to the waterfront streetcar terminus near King Street Station, and also a new maintenance base which could be made large enough to house the waterfront streetcars as well. As reported here last week, this could possibly be done by 2012. The only question is whether or not it will come before viaduct demolition consumes the waterfront.

      1. The only thing is that the waterfront streetcars operate on a different voltage and so it would take quite a bit of effort to convert them, and I doubt that they can do some of the First Hill Streetcar grades that even the new streetcars will have some trouble with.

      2. The old streetcars don’t need to run up First Hill; just connect the tracks at the maintenance base to the waterfront streetcar terminus at 5th and Jackson and send the streetcars over to their old tracks. The ST First Hill Transit summary [PDF link] notes that the maintenance base for this line will probably be somewhere on Main Street, so pretty close to 5th and Jackson.

        That’s a good point about the voltage; however, if I recall correctly the old streetcars used to use special long trolley poles to get power; perhaps it would be possible to have two sets of power lines serving one track where the lines meet. Or maybe the waterfront streetcar could have a separate entrance into the maintenance base.

      3. Inclined to think we don’t want the historical trolleys running all over the place, but it might be a good idea eventually to make their voltage the same as the rest of the system. This could be done by re-winding the motors and updating the controllers, or by on-board transforming of the higher voltage to lower.

    2. And the streetcars too! Such a shame. Maybe the STB readers should get together and build a new shack for it. We can put it in the park, as long as we make it look like some wacky sculpture.

      1. That is what irritated me so much about this whole episode. You could see this coming- SAM calls it modern art if you “ceramicize” a waste basket- there were pictures in the paper of this, and other meaningless stuff “ceramicized” and exhibited at the “sculpture park” as art.

        What a bunch of maroons.

      2. Well, it’s the poor process of the whole thing. Ok, so the SAM didn’t want the barn to block the view of the Sound from the park, but if the city leaders placed any value on the Waterfront Streetcar, wouldn’t they have made building a new barn a prerequisite to tearing down the old one? Instead they gave us empty pledges that they would secure a new site, after the line had been stopped. Then they found a new site, patted themselves on the back, and forgot about the issue while the planning fell through for that. And now if you ask them about it, the answer is “Well, the Viaduct…” And this all went on while they were promoting the construction of streetcar lines in Seattle!

        Now you hear that a First Ave line will “replace” the Waterfront line, and the old cars might be brought out on special occasions. But First Ave and the Waterfront are not the same thing! They serve different purposes. Sure, the Waterfront line does not have the transit value of the other lines being planned in Seattle, but it was popular with local and out-of-town visitors to the Waterfront and was a point of civic pride.

        For this reason, I’m sure when the Viaduct is finally gone they will bring back the Waterfront line as part of the renewed Waterfront. But should we have to wait a decade (or more!) when we have the tracks in place and the cars in storage? I realize the barn issue is not easily resolved, but we need to press ST/SDOT to include space for the Waterfront cars in any barn built for the First Hill line. The barn could be built as soon as the planning is complete, no need to wait even for the First Hill tracks to be completed.

      3. I agree. I think the viaduct excuse was a red herring all along. Especially know that they are planning on keeping it open while the new tunnel is bored. And why couldn’t they have integrated a new streetcar barn into the design of the sculpture park? I guess that would have upset the city royalty. The vintage cars really added a lot to the waterfront atmosphere and it’s sad that they’ve been gone so long.

  17. You know what seems like an easy fix but I have never got a reply about? The Metro website being able to show you which trips are peak and which aren’t. It can’t be that difficult.

      1. It does but if you already know what route you need to take, the schedule doesn’t indicate which trips are peak and which ones aren’t. Shouldn’t the online timetable be as easy to read as the paper one?

  18. Is it an ORCA card or simply an ORCA? If it is ORCA card, then it becomes One Regional Card for All card.

    1. Probably both, mostly ORCA card. The website is ORCAcard.com but the whole program itself is called ORCA. The FAQ asks “How do I use ORCA on the bus, train, or ferry?” but mostly uses the term ORCA card.

      It’s like how people say PIN (personal identification number) or PIN number and ATM (automated teller machine) or ATM machine.

  19. So did I hear automated stop announcements on the 72 yesterday? I only heard maybe 4-5 of them between the U-District and Fred Meyer, but they were clearly a lady when I’m pretty sure the driver was a dude. Coach # 2787.

  20. Maybe it was me but I just noticed tiny antennas on the roof of coaches near the front. Anything new about those? New radio system? GPS?

    1. They’re for the UHF system that they’ve been using for years. Mainly used for two things: dispatchers making announcements, operators talking to the dispatchers, and the constant data stream being sent out to all coaches and back to base (for the AVLs and such). If you have a scanner or know someone that does, tune into 452.375 (odd numbered buses) or 452.8.

  21. sadly, edmonton trolley bus service is apparently ending this friday (24th). word is the wires are already starting to come down.


    toronto ttc is supposed to announce the largest streetcar/lrv order in north american history also on friday… $1.2 billion worth


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