First Hill Streetcar open house at Seattle Central
First Hill Streetcar open house at Seattle Central

Seattle Central Community College last night hosted SDOT’s initial First Hill Streetcar open house event to solicit feedback from the community on the proposed alignments.

Since comments were written down privately, it’s hard to gauge an overall reaction from the community but the takeaway is that Capitol Hill is very interested in its streetcar.

The City had staff on hand to (attempt to) answer questions. Almost all of what was shown we saw earlier this week, but the material was new to most in attendance.

More after the jump…

The event focused mostly on the Broadway section of the streetcar that has been subject to the most debate online. To recap, the three main alignments in contention for Broadway are (illustrated by Ananda La Vita at The Stranger):

This blog has editorialized against the 12th Ave-Broadway couplet in the past and the alignment hasn’t changed enough to justify a serious look. (Broadway is still much more elevated than 12th Ave, and Seattle University still feels like private property than a public walkway.) Seattle University and some community members are pushing strongly for the alignment given 12th’s commercial development potential and a desire for transit service along the street. The conversation has indeed illustrated there is a palpable demand for transit service and perhaps SDOT should look into working with Metro to route the 9 and 60 buses along 12th once the streetcar opens. Not many folks who attended the open house seemed to vocalize support for the 12th Ave alignment, but the written comments may have reflected a different reality than I witnessed.

Two-way Broadway alignment, illustrated by The Stranger's Ananda La Vita
Two-way Broadway alignment, illustrated by The Stranger's Ananda La Vita

The Boren and Boylston jogs have travel times a handful of minutes larger than either the 12th Ave couplet or Broadway alignments. To reach the desired 10 minute peak headway, Ethan Malone of SDOT told meeting-goers last night, these longer travel times could lead to increased operating costs compared to other alignments. I personally feel they don’t serve Seattle University as well as the Two-way Broadway alignment and I didn’t hear anyone sing the praises of those options.

The Two-way Broadway alignment is the most reasonable to this writer. The last minute addition of an 11th Ave couplet was a surprise to even those of us following the process closely, but it clearly throws a bone to the 12th Ave alignment fans. Ethan Malone explained to me that a potential stop near Madison & 11th would serve local businesses on 12th and the northeast edge of Seattle University. He also explained that ditching the 11th ave couplet would still require some sort of loop for the streetcar to turn around, since a tail section could lead to capacity problems.

But that 11th Ave couplet seemed to draw the loudest fire from a small group of community members who attended the open house. They argued, incorrectly I later discovered, that dozens of parking spots would be removed from around Cal Anderson park. Some others worried about a train every ten minutes circumscribing that park would make the area less serene and pleasant. Some worried about damaging the character of a residential streets with a streetcar. Some folks had trouble understanding the big differences between light rail and a streetcar.

To the common concern that a streetcar will ring its bells too frequently, one astute community member remarked, “It’s not like buses honk their horns every time they stop.” Nor would a streetcar, which wouldn’t chime its bells at every stop. I hate to callously summarize real concerns of my neighbors, but these concerns struck me as the typical overwrought worrying you hear with any transit project. Some folks simply expect transit to run exclusively through commercial areas and many others won’t realize how well streetcars work on residential corridors until the tracks are laid. Until then, transit advocates can point to the successful residential sections of the Portland Streetcar.

There are two additional streetcar open houses being held tonight and tomorrow night.

51 Replies to “SCCC Hosts Streetcar Open House”

  1. Actually, both Tacoma Link and the SLUT frequently ring their bell when entering/leaving a station. And drivers tend to honk the horn when they see someone run across the tracks a mile ahead. Everyone has a right to be concerned about noise, especially if this thing is going off Broadway and approaching more quiet residential areas. Those streetcars aren’t as loud as diesel buses but they’re not super quiet either.

    Anyway, if having an easier way to turn around is the only reason for a couplet, that’s a bad reason – especially because the line will only be terminating here temporarily. When it’s extended to Aloha it will likely be two-way, am I right?

  2. What I don’t get about this 11th loop is, what happens when the streetcar is extended north to Aloha? Or is that no longer in the plans, for now or ever?

    1. Ethan Malone of SDOT told me the plan would work fine with an Ahola extension. It doesn’t preclude two-way operations north of Denny. No, it doesn’t take it off the table.

      1. It may not take it off the table, but it does make it more convoluted. The main reason to do the 11th ave loop is the difficulty of turning around with a switchback at Denny. If we extend to Aloha, the who rationale for 11th disappears.

      2. Having at least part of Broadway have just one direction of streetcar makes it possible to have a bike lane on one side, and also the traffic is pretty bad on Broadway so it’s good to have it not get stuck there all the time. I think when they extend it up to Aloha, the NB part should be extended up 11th to Thomas and then turn left and right to get onto Broadway so that it skips the most heavily trafficked section of Broadway.

  3. I can’t imagine the city does not have the collective will to come up with the modest incremental cost to lay a few more blocks of track and extend to Aloha. How is it that the north end of Broadway was enough of a destination to merit a subway station in 1996 that cost more than the entire First Hill streetcar line but now that the area has grown, we wouldn’t even build a few extra blocks of cheap surface track?

    How much faster is this routing via 11th faster than just going straight up Broadway, and why? Is it congestion on Broadway? Maybe there’s another way to speed things up on Broadway. If we have to move an underground pipe or two, it seems like a small price to pay to get a straight shot up the business district, with stops in front of the light rail station entrances.

    If 11th truly is better in all ways, then OK, but I don’t see it as helpful to enable a turnaround at a place we shouldn’t be turning around.

    1. Well, the neighborhood has six years to advocate for funding for the extension to Aloha. Until the Capitol Hill station is complete the streetcar will be turning around at Pine Street.

      This project only exists because of strong advocacy by the First Hill neighborhood group. It the Aloha extension is that important to Capitol Hill why weren’t people involved from the very beginning to get funding for it? It seems like everyone just sat around with their fingers crossed hoping that money would magically appear instead of actually doing something to make it appear. I don’t think there’s a lack of will, just a lack of effort.

      1. I’m sorry, Zed, back in 2005 when First Hill was working on the streetcar I was busy organizing a campaign for a $1 million U-Pass program in Bellingham, which led to a 33% increase in transit ridership there. Quite simply, I wasn’t advocating for funding for Aloha six years ago because I wasn’t here.

        Capitol Hill recently went through a dormant period in neighborhood activism. Our Community Council was defunct and our Chamber of Commerce did not exist. Both the Chamber and the Community Council have only recently reformed.

        It is a lot easier to keep a neighborhood advocacy organization running when you have the financial backing of multi-billion dollar institutions hell bent on milking as much money out of the taxpayer to subsidize their properties and operations.

        We’re back now, and you’ll be seeing more of us.

      2. “It is a lot easier to keep a neighborhood advocacy organization running when you have the financial backing of multi-billion dollar institutions hell bent on milking as much money out of the taxpayer to subsidize their properties and operations.”

        That’s really what you think of non-profit hospitals and research organizations? Good luck with that attitude.

    2. I think it’s pretty simple that when the money isn’t there it isn’t there. Hopefully they can get a federal grant or find some other way to pay for it (maybe surpluses from construction contracts?)

    3. w/r/t : How much faster is this routing via 11th faster than just going straight up Broadway, and why? Is it congestion on Broadway? Maybe there’s another way to speed things up on Broadway.

      Why must we have the FH Streetcar go up Broadway, then? Extension-wise, Broadway north of John, sure, no question – to serve retail core. But the Fh to Link station run needs to be on Broadway? Why? BonneyWatson? Dick’s? The bowling alley?
      My point, rather: There are a dozen direct roads that connect First Hill to Broadway and John (The Link station/jump off point for either a Group Health or Aloha extension) – If Broadway’s traffic is an issue, then use another N-S alignment. YT-Boren-Seneca-Union-12th-to-John? Minor-Bellevue-Olive? Bolyston-Harvard (and stay on Harvard all the way to John)? All would serve retail of some sort, serve desnity to varying degrees, and would limit 90 degree turns (my Dark Horse fav, Minor-Bellevue-Olive Way, especially: zero 90 degree turns from Yesler Terrace, north — Minor also drives a stake through the density/heart of FH while only being a block off the boren arterial).

  4. I personally like the Broadway alignment with the jog over onto Boylston. Running on Boylston puts the Swedish stop on the west side of Broadway, making it more convenient for people headed to the Hospital. It also includes an extra stop in the dense residential area near Seneca. This neighborhood has a lot of senior citizens and disabled people who would benefit from streetcar service. This routing also avoids Madison which can be very congested and has quite a mess of trolley bus wires at the intersection with Broadway. At peak hours this alignment could be time competitive with the straight Broadway alignment because it avoids traffic congestion around Broadway and Madison. I think the Boylston alignment best serves the area that would have been served by the Link station and avoids the pitfalls of using Boren.

  5. One of the City of Seattle employees I spoke to last night noted that the bells were only required when stopping at four way stops, so they were looking at introducing signals in areas around that 11th Ave couplet that would eliminate that need and provide less concern for residents with regard to noise. She also confirmed to me that there would be no parking eliminated due to the slimmer nature of the streetcars vs. buses.

    There was a gentleman there whose entire name I didn’t catch who seemed determined to make positive statements about the Boren/Minor jogs to everyone who might listen. I had the impression he was associated with one of the hospitals.

    There was definitely a loud minority there raising the usual NIMBY concerns about crime, noise and property values with regard to the 11th Ave couplet. I have some sympathy because Denny in particular is so narrow, but it sounded like the alternative was a tail section on Denny.

    1. He was quite determined, wasn’t he! Would he have been John Dolan of the First Hill Community Association? But I also heard him shudder at the idea of running streetcar through Boren Avenue’s nightmare traffic congestion.

      Those NIMBYs were pissed that SDOT dropped that 11th Ave couplet on them. They were determined to organize themselves to bury City Council under a blizzard of protest letters.

      1. Yes! It was John Dolan. I think I even heard him describe the First Hill options as brilliant, though you’re right about his comments regarding Boren traffic.

    2. It would be foolish for them NOT to sound a horn while traveling down 11th ave. That is dark, quiet residential street adjacent to a park. I am very concerned about people being run over. People are expecting a streetcar on the main drag, not on a residential street. The sun sets at 4:30 in the winter. This thing will be running in the dark, on a dark street, silently, every 10 minutes near a major pedestrian traffic generator. People have already been hit by Link.

      I love streetcars and I am very much in support of this project and I support new development and density on Capitol Hill. I am also very concerned about how Capitol Hill can help the city and region achieve their growth management goals. I am by no definition a NIMBY, but there is no good reason to take the streetcar OFF of Broadway and put it on a quiet residential street.

      One key to making high density communities attractive to families and thus supporting our shared goals of greater density is to keep the vehicle traffic on the main drag and keep the residential streets calm, narrow and quiet. Don’t let you knee-jerk instinct to automatically oppose any argument about quality of life in the neighborhood as irrational NIMBYism.

      1. Nobody has actually been hit by Link. People have hit the Link. Someone walked into the side of a train, another person committed suicide, and there have been a couple instances where cars made illegal left turns.

        The Portland Streetcar runs though dark residential streets as well. Go to the Pearl District sometime. Nobody there seems to get hit. And that problem is easily solved by installing lights on the streetcar (which there already are). A mars light might help too. TLink utilizes them. I got bored and looked at 11th on Google Street View. There are plenty of streetlights along the right-of-way so it’ll be well lit.

        http://maps.google.com/maps?q=cal+anderson+park&ie=UTF8&hl=en&hq=cal+anderson+park&hnear=&ll=47.617341,-122.31817&spn=0,359.995872&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=47.617265,-122.318182&panoid=dXP4aDH2XQOb3_ZmgHNeuw&cbp=12,211.66,,0,1.3

        Part of having reasonable transportation solutions is to distribute the traffic load onto as many streets as possible. Use capacity where it exists. The reason we’re building Link is because we do no have more capacity for buses and cars on certain roadways. Other options need to be utilized.

        Your last paragraph seems very NIMBY. It starts with the classic “I love streetcars…” and “we support…” but ends with get it out of my front lawn and keep it off our streets. Hell, I’d LOVE to have a streetcar running in front of my house. So handy and its not some crappy, loud, diesel bus!

      2. Lol yeah Tacoma Link has a lot of flashing lights in the front and it seems like there’s new ones every time I go down there. But although it looks funny I’m sure it really does help at night.

      3. Only 2 blocks of 11th is a “quiet residential street” and then only on the east side of the street. The southern end of 11th is a rather loud, busy bar/restaurant/retail street. I don’t see a problem with running a streetcar down any street, how is it more dangerous than a car traveling down the same street? Should we make cars honk their horns as they drive to alert people to their presence? At least streetcar drivers are professionals who have people’s safety in mind, unlike most drivers. If I lived on 11th I’d welcome the project because it will improve the streetscape and help limit the number of drivers who cruise up and down 11th looking for parking.

      4. thanks Zed.

        I think it would be nice. Besides…these guys will be living only a few blocks from a high capacity transit station. If they think nothing is going to change, they are dreaming. But change doesn’t necessarily mean it won’t continue to be a nice residential street.

  6. @JohnJensen – “Not many folks who attended the open house seemed to vocalize support for the 12th Ave alignment, but the written comments may have reflected a different reality than I witnessed.”

    In fact I saw and heard much support for the 12th Ave couplet alignment.

    SDOT took written comments. Others were encouraged to submit comments online at http://www.seattlestreetcar.org/firsthill.asp (inexplicably, SDOT failed to post a comment form there; perhaps best to email Ethan Melone until a form is posted).

    The open house felt like a cocktail party without the cocktails. I’d expected a presentation or a Q&A. Instead, I found myself mingling, wandering from cluster to cluster, catching snatches of questions and conversation. Overall, SDOT’s open house format makes it hard for any observer to judge overall audience reaction to the proposals.

    @Eric L and @barman – you can ask SDOT yourselves at tonight’s Open House at Yesler Terrace Community Center!

    1. “Overall, SDOT’s open house format makes it hard for any observer to judge overall audience reaction to the proposals.”

      You are completely correct. I hope I made that clear. I stood in front of the 12th Ave board for most of the evening and mostly heard folks talk about 11th. But maybe I should have mingled more.

    2. I used to attend Metro and ST community meetings where they took verbal comments, and sometimes split people into small groups to generate suggestions. My main reason for attending the meetings was to hear what people thought about the project and how big the various factions were — whether most people agreed with me or it would be an uphill battle. I already knew the proposals because they’d been discussed in the newspaper or were on the agency’s website.

      So I’ve been disappointed at recent meetings where the only thing to do is view the big proposal posters and talk with a staff member individually. That doesn’t give me any sense of what people think. Although it may be good from a PR perspective, to deny project opponents a forum. But ultimately it works against public knowledge and involvement.

  7. As long as we’re throwing out new ideas… I’m a big fan of couplets because they make less of an impact on any one street which should; mean less time stuck in traffic for the SC, more chance of getting dedicated ROW, better chance of claiming space for bike lanes, a broader area of coverage with the same average (morning + evening) commute time. I think this is especially true when both ends of the line connect to the same place (i.e. Central Link). For riders coming from the North to Pill Hill it make actually be faster for them to get off in the morning at Capital Hill and then ride the SC south in the evening to catch a not yet standing room only train in the ID.

    So, how about Terry/Boren, Spring/Madison, Harvard/Broadway (transitioning to Broadway/10th if you go north to Aloha)? It doesn’t give curbside service to Swedish but that could be changed by substituting Marion for Madison which might be better traffic wise anyway. It does increase the width of the couplet to two blocks but only on a three block section.

    1. As I’ve said before, here or elsewhere — from a transit perspective (riders’ perspective), couplets work well only when the distance between them is short (one short block, max.), level, and with similar land uses. Envision a couplet on the Pike/Pine corridor.

      The couplets we’re looking at for the First Hill Streetcar (not, incidentally, the Capitol Hill Streetcar…) are all multiple blocks wide, very dissimilar land uses, and in the case of 12th have riders climb a grade.

    2. In addition to Transit Voter’s mention above of the very specific characteristics necessary for an effective couplet you also need the northbound and southbound stations to be situated in such a way that requires the shortest walking distance possible between them.

      On the Broadway/12th couplet proposal there is a northbound station at Broadway & Terrace but no corresponding southbound station on 12th!

      On the 2-way Broadway proposal’s 11th Ave couplet the stations are not only separated by two blocks east-west they are also separated a block and a half north-south which will further diminish the effectiveness of these two stations.

      1. The missing southbound station on 12th is an oversight, WInchester. Or at least an SDOT representative acknowledged it as such; he penciled it onto the board with a red Sharpie.

        That station is also missing from the Density and Capacity diagrams! I pointed that out to SDOT, too!

  8. Interesting comment in the post — “Capitol Hill is very interested in its streetcar”.

    I always thought this was the First Hill streetcar; gowever, if it’s routed on 12th or 11th, it won’t be.

    1. This was a meeting on Broadway, so I was implying that it mostly represented residents of the area around SCCC (Capitol Hill) but maybe that was a dumb leap. 11th vs. Broadway is all in Capitol Hill, though, not First Hill.

  9. After a few days to think it over I’m preferring the Boren/Minor alignment because it best serves present and probable near-future density. Just to be clear: I’ll be happy whatever gets built!

    I like the simplicity of two-way Broadway but Seattle is not a simple grid pattern and I’d rather connect the density than have pretty routing. The Portland Streetcar is not exactly a simple route, by the way:
    http://www.portlandstreetcar.org/map.php

    It’s also worth noting that Boren/Minor at Seneca is about 5 blocks closer than Broadway to lots of pedestrian/bike escape routes over I-5 (take your pick of Seneca, Freeway Park/Convention Center, the 8th Ave underpass or Boren/Pike/Pine).

    1. I like the simplicity of two-way Broadway but Seattle is not a simple grid pattern and I’d rather connect the density than have pretty routing.

      **Stands and claps**

    2. I really wish people would stop holding up the Portland Streetcar as if it were the gold standard of streetcar planning. It is not. It’s a reasonably good route and it works pretty well, but it is not a runaway success from a ridership perspective. Who is to say that the portland streetcar would not be even more successful than it is if it had a different alignment?

      1. Honestly, I throw it out there as an example when talking to people about the issues more because it’s potentially familiar to a general Seattle audience and has enough similarities to be a reasonable example, if not a perfect one. It certainly has its problems. I would suspect that’s the reason you see it brought up here as often as you do. I love the trams in Amsterdam, but using them as an example for your average Seattle resident is likely not very productive.

  10. You know…looking at these maps and not to complicate things, but I don’t see why the South Lake Union Streetcar couldn’t continue south down 5th Ave to the terminus of the Waterfront and First Hill Streetcar lines at 5th Ave and Jackson? It’s so logical and would tie all three streetcar lines together. Combine that with a north loop on 4th Ave. We could still name this mile long line the “Central Streetcar”.

    Yes, this would mean no 1st Ave/Central Streetcar, but it would also mean the possible return of the Waterfront Streetcar. This would be a connection of maybe 1 mile and certainly afforable and do-able. Do we need the 1st Ave line anyway? 4th and 5th Aves are large enough for a streetcar, very pedestrian friendly and only blocks to the light rail stations.

    I think the Waterfront Streetcar has more possibly anyway, being extended north through the Sculpture Park, Mrytle Edwards Park, Amgen, Pier 91 and Interbay. In the end though, I would still like to see all the lines connected at their Aloha (FH), Fred Hutch (SLU) and Interbay (WF) north terminuses.

    1. It would probably lower the cost, but most regional destinations are between 3rd and 1st, especially Pike Place Market, and also the art museum, the bridge to the ferries, Benaroya Hall, etc. These are places that should have a transit stop. There’s not much on 5th except the library and the 5th Avenue theater, unless you happen to work in one of the offices or are going to one of the minor retail outlets. South of Union the hill turns steep, so it matters quite a lot which street the streetcar is on.

      If we do bring back the waterfront streetcar, can we please make it faster? It’s slower than a trolleybus, which makes it OK for a tourist attraction but not that good for transportation. Many times I would walk from downtown rather than wait 20 minutes for such a slow streetcar.

      1. You also need a connection between 5th and 1st, which some proposals for extending the SLUT do at Stewart Street. That would provide a connection between Westlake Station and Pike Place Market.

    2. First Ave is a much better street for a streetcar. It connects to several huge destinations and tourist attractions and would get very high ridership. Also it facilitates the line from Uptown and Seattle Center much more easily. I think the SLUT should continue onto First then on as the First Hill Streetcar. That way there would be double frequency between Pike Place Market and Pioneer Square (because it combines there with the Central Streetcar) and it brings people from SLU (and Eastlake and Fremont/Ballard) to central Downtown. The Waterfront Streetcar line should also still be built, as very few people are going to access the Waterfront from the First Ave line, that’s a completely different market. Also the historic vehicles make it a tourist attraction in its own right and with an extension to the cruise ship terminals it would be great.

    3. It would not be significantly more expensive to connect the SLUT with this new streetcar via First Ave. It would be much cheaper than building out the entire central line. We could then look to extending the segment north to Seattle Center to complete the central line at a future date when more funding is available. At least then the two streetcars we have would be connected while we wait for future expansions.

  11. “but it clearly throws a bone to the 12th Ave alignment fans”

    Not exactly… the 12th Ave proponents are interested in spurring development between Madison and Jackson, not between Madison and Denny.

  12. Here’s what I learned at tonight’s streetcar meeting:

    – The proposal is southbound on 12th Ave. The route loops clockwise around Cal Anderson Park.
    – There actually is a lot of development foreseen on 12th Ave. (though it would still not approach the maximal density of First Hill.) The community has supported some upzoning.
    – The quickest time for any alignment between Denny and 12th / Jackson is about 11 minutes, the slowest, 16. For comparison’s sake, the travel time between Capitol Hill and the International District on light rail is about 9 minutes.
    – Ridership is still under study.
    – The water main they really want to avoid somewhere along the way is not just some little pipe — it’s like 50 inches wide and it’s the major water supply to the whole district and it has to be moved to build a streetcar line over it. Apparently you can’t just reinforce the street bed, build it up a few inches and call it done. Relocating it means digging a mini-subway somewhere else.
    – The Aloha extension might cost about $30 million. It can be added to any of these alignments at any time.
    – While Capitol Hill station construction is still underway, the streetcar would turn back on Pine. That trackage would no longer be in service after the loop (and possibly the Aloha extension) is constructed.

    The alignment is the City’s decision but there is some written mandate to serve the major employers of First Hill (need to look this up.)

    With any these alignments, it might actually make sense for some people to head out of direction on one half of a round trip journey and backtrack on light rail. For example, with the 12th Ave. alignment, if you worked at Swedish Hospital (as many do) and lived somewhere to the south or east on a light rail line, you could take light rail to Capitol Hill on your way to work, transferring to a southbound streetcar that takes you directly to your destination, and on your way home, you could once again take a southbound streetcar that runs on Broadway, and transfer to light rail in the International District. 12th Ave. would not be part of your commute.

    I am still not convinced 12th Ave. is the best alignment, but it’s not as bad as I thought.

    I’m not sold on the single stop at 10th Ave / Jackson. The 12th / Jackson intersection does seem to be the heart of that community. Maybe with the Yesler Terrace redevelopment this could be more of a place.

    The Weller loop is interesting but would certainly slow down the northbound journey from IDS. I am skeptical of these loopy detours that also add track length and cost.

  13. I just realized I got southbound and northbound reversed in my example above for the commute to Swedish, because I’m still getting used to the fact that the 12th Ave. alignment is southbound on 12th. What I meant was:

    With the 12th Ave. alignment, if you worked at Swedish Hospital and lived somewhere to the south or east on a light rail line, you could take light rail to the International District on your way to work, transferring to a northbound streetcar that takes you directly to your destination, and on your way home, you could once again take a northbound streetcar that runs on Broadway, and transfer to light rail at Capitol Hill station. 12th Ave. would not be part of your commute.

    These folks would probably quickly tire of the Weller St. loop.

  14. Check out this recent aerial photo of First Hill and Minor Ave:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/joshuadf/4195097655/
    Judging by the building sizes, Minor is pretty clearly near the center of First Hill density.

    The SLU streetcar’s Cascade Maintenance Base at 318 Fairview Ave N (2 blocks from the circled property) is really very close! If possible it might make sense to have non-route tracks across I-5 at Minor and share the base.

    1. There are several problems with using the SLU base. First the base is quite small and really can’t accommodate many more cars in its current configuration. Second is it would take a fair amount of track to reach the base (11 1/2 blocks by my count). For that amount of track it is better to extend the line further North on Broadway to put the base on either the City owned Charles Street shops (2 blocks) or Metro’s Atlantic/Central base complex (6 blocks). Finally there is the small problem of getting across I-5 which would require a new bridge if the line stayed on minor.

      1. Yeah, a new I-5 crossing at Boren/Pike/Pine would be a really big deal, but maybe someday… with a lid including retail!

        The Cascade Maintenance Base is currently on a quarter-width lot, with another quarter for employee parking. I assume it could be fairly easily doubled in size.

      2. Even if it was increased in size I don’t think it has enough room for the 5 additional trams the First Hill Line would require. There certainly wouldn’t be any room for the Waterfront, First Avenue, Ballard/Freemont, or Eastlake/U-District lines.

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