First Hill alignment analysis from SDOT. Click for a larger version of this image. (Thanks to Zef Wagner.)

The city has released its preliminary analysis of the various streetcar alignments, and the data isn’t good for alignments west of Broadway. Both cost more to build, have worse travel times, and higher operating costs. It seems unlikely that the city will move forward on these options, despite intense lobbying from local hospitals. On the other hands, those routes do have slightly higher ridership potential.

What’s a bit more surprising is that another Broadway Two-Way option seems to have come back from the dead. SDOT seems to be proposing one Broadway Two-Way route that runs the entire line on Broadway and another with an 11th Ave couplet. The former option wasn’t included in December’s round of public meetings and it’s good to see a fully two-way Broadway alignment back on the table. That option would be the cheapest and have the best bicycle integration.

There is slightly bad news for the 12th Ave couplet alignment (which we’ve editorialized against). That couplet has the lowest ridership potential range of any option, perhaps reflecting the accessibility problems that occur with a couplet that’s pretty well separated. The alignment also has poor bicycle interaction since 12th Ave is a major north/south bike corridor and a slightly higher cost band.

Update 10:45 am: Tony the Economist has posted a great comment that helps explain why the ridership potential numbers are so similar:

Those ridership projections are not “riders” they are “potential riders”. The three routes are too similar to each other for traditional ridership models to evaluate the difference between them, so SDOT is using “trip generation within 1/4 mile” as a proxy. The higher “ridership” numbers with the Boren alignment represent higher built densities (i.e. more trip generation) to the west, but those numbers do not take into account the fact that folks living farther to the west may choose to ride the bus or even walk to downtown rather than use the streetcar and they don’t take into account the faster travel times with the Broadway alignment, which may increase ridership despite the slightly lower density.

In addition, the numbers could actually over-represent 12th Ave couplet riders since none of the facts of riding the alignment — including its smaller walkshed — are really considered in a ridership potential model.

Update 3:45 pm: Tony further informed us that the reduced walkshed is factored into the 12th Ave couplet ridership potential, since SDOT takes the midpoint between each station. I don’t think the incline of the hill is taken into effect, but that would likely have a small impact.

81 Replies to “City Analysis Likely to Narrow Streetcar Options”

  1. IMHO any alignment where the Streetcar is going both directions on the street is wasting half of it. Having it on two different streets will broaden the accessibility. Just my opinion…..

    1. As I like to say, you get half the quality of service for twice the area. Does that sound good to you?

    2. I’ve seen couplets before I knew what they were. San Jose has one direction on First Street (a major street), and the other direction on the minor street next to it. I always thought, how unlucky to have to be on or travel on the minor street where nothing is happening, nobody is there, and the speed limit is slower. (Of course, other people would want to put it all on the minor street for the same reasons.)

      Couplets wider than a block seem excessive. People sometimes change their mind about which direction they’re going, and visitors want to be able to see their return stop.

  2. Does the Pioneer Square loop have any real benefits? I don’t see the point of it. Weller Street loop has a basically perfect interface to Link/IDS and Sounder, and it raises the visibility of a lot of shops and restaurants. Seems like a winner to me.

    As both a frequent bicyclist and transit user, I appreciate 12th Ave. in its current configuration, I’m annoyed by the tracks on Westlake along the side of the street where I want to bike, and I’d be fine with tracks on Broadway and the Weller Street loop. Unless I’m actually going to Broadway itself, I always bike the side streets on either side of Broadway rather than going through all the traffic signals.

    1. The thinking is that it would extend the streetcar into one more neighborhood and would also increase access to the stadiums.

      1. Is there a reason anyone thinks that should be a higher priority than directly connecting to the International District Station?

        The Weller Street loop has good stadium access and more with its stop near the Weller Street pedestrian bridge, which takes you Sounder as well as the “North Lot” property, which will be intensely redeveloped. The stop is adjacent to the Link station. You don’t even have to cross the street. I can’t imagine doing better than that.

  3. How much do they have budgeted for the project again? Any way that they could have enough money left over if they choose the two-way Broadway alignment (which is better anyways) to extend to Aloha? It sounds like the extension to Aloha is one of the highest priorities for a lot of people when they talk about this streetcar.

    1. The city gets $132 million in construction costs from Sound Transit. I’ve heard the Aloha segment will cost another $25m, so the Broadway option would have to come in way below budget for it to work

      1. Or the City Council can authorize a study for the extension and explore funding it through a combination of city money and federal grants. I’m tired of hearing this line that the extension depends on the project coming in under budget. It is a matter of political will–it will happen if we push hard enough.

    2. I sure hope they can extend to Aloha. That would make it so much nicer to get to the Harvard Exit theatre as well as the other shops on the north end of Broadway.

      1. We (Capitol Hill Community Council) believe that the Aloha extension would be a great benefit to First Hill. Those of us who live on Capitol Hill can walk to the north end of Broadway. The real beneficiaries would be the residents of First Hill who would now have more destinations they can access with the streetcar. It’s not just a matter of how far the streetcar is from your home, it’s how far it takes you once you’re on it. The Aloha extension really completes the project and brings both neighborhoods (Capitol Hill and First Hill) together.

      2. Yeah it really goes both ways, allowing Yestler terrace people at one end and Aloha people on the other end to easily get to the opposite ends on Broadway. It will really help a lot to tie the Broadway corridor together.

      3. Is there any chance of funding an Aloha extension with a LID along the whole line, then? Seems like $25 million wouldn’t cost much per property once you amortize across all the properties adjoining the line.

      4. Maybe a transit ballot measure in November will include funding for this. And we can always dream about a future extension all the way down the 49 route to the U District too…

      5. That is certainly a possibility. The South Lake Union Streetcar is funded partially by a LID, although it was easier there because so much property is owned by one company (Vulcan).

      6. LIDs only work well if current land values are undervalued compared to their fully build out potential. In the case of north Broadway I don’t know if that area is undervalued but if and LID was to fund the project there might need to be an upzone to created the differential that can then be captured by new property taxes.

      7. My parents are own a business in the area (and talking with a few other owners) around CHS, I’d say our lease is overpriced relative to the current business situation. Not sure what that says about the actual or perceived value of the land.

      8. I’d agree. There has been times that I want to head up to the John-Aloha stretch of Broadway from my place on Jefferson. For even something as simple as a grocery run this line would really help out. At the moment I either rely on the 9 bus (get real)or walk, which can get pretty bad on the way home with groceries in the rain. The ability to travel from one end of Broadway to the other will really help with our neighborhoods’ cohesion.

      9. Do we know if the city will contract to Stacy and Witbeck again and allow them to handle all phases of the construction? By placing this in one company’s hands, maybe the cost will be lower. They also have history with us and SLU Streetcar.

        Also what with the economy the way it is, maybe the bid will come in closer to $100m, rather than $132m. But yes, as previous bloggers content, if we want this, we need to push for it and get the Aloha extension built.

  4. It looks like 2-way Broadway is the best option across the board. Cheaper, direct, and only 1000 fewer riders than the expensive western options.

    1. Those ridership projections are not “riders” they are “potential riders”. The three routes are too similar to each other for traditional ridership models to evaluate the difference between them, so SDOT is using “trip generation within 1/4 mile” as a proxy. The higher “ridership” numbers with the Boren alignment represent higher built densities (i.e. more trip generation) to the west, but those numbers do not take into account the fact that folks living farther to the west may choose to ride the bus or even walk to downtown rather than use the streetcar and they don’t take into account the faster travel times with the Broadway alignment, which may increase ridership despite the slightly lower density.

      The other thing to notice is that all the “projections”, are within the margin of error. The lower bound of the Boren alignment is 4,000 potential riders lower than the upper bound of 12th. These are like an opinion poll that tells you that 51% of voters support a proposal, plus or minus 30%. The takeaway is that the ridership on all the alignments is fairly close. The cost estimates and travel times on the other hand, are real, hard numbers.

      1. Maybe SDOT used your snazzy maps to more accurately reflect the densities within walking distance of the stations.

        It would seem that those numbers for the 12th alignment would be under representing potential ridership because 12th avenue is a faster routing, there are no existing transit alternatives, and 12th is even further from downtown than the Broadway and west of Broadway alignments. (More so for my personal fav: two-way 12th…c’mon Seattle public input process, bring back this old alternative.)

      2. I don’t know if they did or not but looking at the results I’m pretty sure they didn’t.

        12th Ave is a faster routing to the ID but it is slower to Cap hill station which is the one that matters more.

      3. Give our boys at SDOT some credit. Judging on the numbers, it appears they did do something different for the 12th/broadway couplet. Notice the figures for the couplet are slightly lower. If they just took a quarter mile around the broadway corridor and added a quarter mile around the 12th corridor (which is what I assume you are suggesting; correct me if I’m wrong), the couplet would show up with close to double the two-way Broadway options.

      4. I looked at the number and you are right, they did do something but I don’t know what. Maybe they did a simple buffer around the midpoint of the couplet stations or something. I don’t know what they did but if they used the same measure that I did the difference would be much larger. This measure just doesn’t seam to be very sensitive to me.

        On the low end there is a range of 1,000 and on the high end there is a range of 2,000. This just doesn’t match with my view of what is on the ground. Walk on Broadway and go one or two blocks in any direction and you still have lots of large hospital or apartment buildings. Go one or two block off of 12th and you have single family housing or sport fields. This could have been caused because they used too large of a buffer, for example a 10 minute walking buffer. The 7 minute buffer I used was probably already pushing the range at which most people will walk.

      5. Good point. What this comes down to is whether going farther west into First Hill is worth more cost and longer travel time. Same with 12th–is it worth degrading the quality of service by separating directions by 3 blocks to reach a goal of covering a broader area? You can’t really use ridership to make these decisions, as Tony points out. This is primarily a political decision–which neighborhoods do we want to connect? Which major institutions do we want to serve? Do we want to build the streetcar based on possible future development (see 12th, SLUT, Rainier Valley Light Rail) or current development (see First Hill)? What price are we willing to pay for these things? It’s more politics than numbers (although these numbers provide a useful perspective).

  5. the data isn’t good for alignments west of Broadway.

    West? My geography isn’t so great and I’m not so familiar with Capital Hill/First Hill but shouldn’t that be east of Broadway?

      1. Thanks, that make it a little more clear. So rereading, higher ridership and higher cost. That shouldn’t be a surprise. Sounds like the hospitals are asking for the alignment that generates the most demand. The alternative is cheap out and hope demand increases? That increases would be what, restaurants, bars? Build pubic transportation infrastructure to support that instead of a huge public hospital?

      2. It would be a pretty small total increase, since if you put it closer to the hospitals, it would get less ridership from SU. Two-way Broadway is the happy medium.

      3. One thing that concerns me about Streetcars on Broadway ( wasn’t that a Sir-Mix-A-Lot B-side?) is the having a street car negotiate the dense traffic and walkers crossing the street. It’s sort of like having a bull in a china shop. Has any thought been given to compatibility? Especially since what Seattle calls a “street car” is not the humble small wooden ones of old, but a big metallic thing that looks and seems to have the mass of a light rail.

        Are these huge “street cars” really compatible with one of the most heavily walked promenades?

      4. Modern streetcars and heavy pedestrian traffic seem compatible in places that have had streetcars for a long time, but I expect we’ll have some of the same issues as adding streetcar tracks to popular cycling routes.

        When people have spent generations without streetcars, they’ve never experienced them personally or learned about them from their parents, it will take time for them to get used to watching for them and avoiding them.

        How long did it take for Portland pedestrians to get used to coexisting with streetcars?

      5. No, not “hope” demand increases, but balance the capital costs and other factors versus projected ridership just like any other transportation decision. If highest ridership were the sole measure I’m sure we have a tunnel boring machine under the hospitals at this very moment. Instead, this project has a fixed budget from ST.

      6. Did you ever figure out how to get us those ORCA and ticket vending machine stats for paid ridership?

  6. It is not completely accurate to say that “the hospitals” all prefer the Boren alignment. There are actually three major hospitals on First Hill and they are actually competitors, not partners. While they often have common interests, there are also many instances in which the big three disagree. This streetcar project may be one of them. The two-way Broadway alignment actually serves Swedish better than the Boren/Seneca. It delivers commuters and patients directly to their front door with faster travel times than the western alternatives. Boren/Seneca is obviously a better deal for Virginia Mason an Harborview (though it’s a 1-block difference for Harborview compared to a 6 block difference for Virginia Mason). The hospitals are not a monolith. Not everyone on First Hill agrees about this project.

    1. One thing they do agree on is that they all hate the 12th Ave alignment. Peace among rivals against a common enemy as it were. :-)

    2. Sounds like two-way Broadway then, unless VM ponies up or prososed a LID or something to cover the costs.

    3. Don’t forget that there is a second Swedish hospital facility up on the other side of 12th Ave, though. :-)

    4. I would advise against structuring this whole project around optimal streetcar access to Virginia Mason. No matter what we do, the best way from Link to Virginia Mason is likely to be getting off at University Street and catching the Metro 2 trolley up Seneca.

      Virginia Mason wasn’t especially convenient to the originally proposed First Hill Link station either.

      It looks like 12th Ave. gets stops at Yesler St. (as well as Jackson St.) with any of these plans, now that the route loops around via 14th Ave.

      At this point my favorite is Two-Way Broadway all the way to Aloha, with the Weller St. loop on the south end which has optimal Link/Sounder connections. We have some time to figure out how to pay for the Aloha extension as that wouldn’t be opened until after CHS construction is complete, anyway (2016).

      When we come up with the Aloha extension money, we could at the same time extend the 3000 feet out to 23rd/Jackson which is in the City’s streetcar plan. The Jackson St. service could interline with a streetcar alignment on First Ave. or the waterfront if and when we do that.

  7. “What’s a bit more surprising is that another Broadway Two-Way option seems to have come back from the dead. SDOT seems to be proposing one Broadway Two-Way route that runs the entire line on Broadway”

    There is one and only one reason that SDOT put two-way Broadway back on the table: community pressure. There is a reason the Capitol Hill Community Council made two-way Broadway north of Union Street one of our three priorities: there is tremendous support for keeping the streetcar on Broadway for the section north of Union. There may not be consensus on what happens to the south, but there is a consensus about what should happen on the north end. SDOT’s initial options did not reflect that consensus, so the community got out the torches and pitch forks, and SDOT responded.

    I know that there is often a great deal of frustration expressed on this blog about neighborhood groups being obstructionist, but there is no reason that local activists have to anti-everything. I like to think of Capitol Hill activists as having a “Yes In My Backyard” attitude, so long as the projects, public or private, are done well and enhance the quality of life in the community. This streetcar has a change to be that and activists have a responsibility to partner with the City to make the project a success.

  8. John: did you note that all the options jog through 14th Avenue South and do not use 12th Avenue South at South Jackson Street?

    1. According to Ethan Melone (SDOT) doing the Bailey Gatzert loop actually saves time as compared to the Jackson to 12th turn.

    2. That jog sure seems silly from the bird’s eye level of looking at the route map. Driving northwest on Boren from Jackson, one would cross the tracks 3 times within a few blocks as the streetcar route zigs and zags back and forth through the neighborhood.

  9. I told the folks at CHS that the 12th Ave Couplet wouldn’t happen and that SDOT would study it away. And yet folks insisted to my face that even SDOT’s studies would prove it to be superior.

    Yaaaaaaaawn.

    1. Superior points for you.

      It does seem rather silly (annoying, actually) for the STB to be placing such a tremendous amount of effort in battling the 12th ave couplet. Kind of wish they would stop because you are right. The couplet is not going to get built (sorry Kate).

      1. So should we take the same stance with the Vision line, the viaduct, monorail, etc? I think that everyone that reads this blog would agree that we are reporting on what is happening in the transportation world and currently the streetcar is a big thing. The preferred alignment will be chosen soon and you won’t hear a word about it likely until they start construction or when it opens.

        Also before we weighted in I think many people were on the fence. It was natural to think that it should be on Broadway but the people that were behind the 12th Ave alignment were many of the same people that are doing a lot of good work on the Hill so people gave them a benefit of the doubt. It doesn’t hurt that they were extremely active as well and that both CHS, Central District blog and The Stranger were advocating for 12th during the whole process either. So while the facts might have shown that it was a bad idea I think the other places that were reporting on it certainly weren’t saying the same things as us.

      2. The 12th Ave initiative is organized and has some real support, kind of like the Vision Line, and needed a strong voice to push back.

        I think we did a good job, and there’s not much need to write long editorials about it anymore. But we probably should cover when new data (such as the data in the blog entry) comes out.

  10. Wasn’t the whole idea of this streetcar to replace a First Hill station and to connect First Hill (I assume by this it is meant the immediate Broadway/hospital area)to both the Capitol Hill (on Broadway itself) and ID/Chinatown Link stations? If so, how did this 12th Avenue route gain “traction”, so to speak, as it seems to be outside of the original scope of the project. We do process everything ad nauseum. Current cases in point: Bellevue LINK and SR-520 alignments. Years have been spent on narrowing down possible routes and all of a sudden, new ones pop up and the discussion starts all over again. Jeesh.

    1. The comparison with Bellevue is apt. Kevin Wallace proposed his “Vision Line” and Sound Transit dutifully added it to their studied alignments and (big surprise!) it turns out to perform terribly in their analysis. The 12th avenue couplet is very similar. Community groups, Capitol Hill Housing, and SU came up with a proposal and SDOT felt obliged to add it to their options. Now the numbers come out and again, they don’t support it compared to 2-way Broadway.

      1. I’m a strong 12th Ave supporter, but even I think the couplet idea through there is stupid.

        I’m annoyed, though, at folks who tried to set it up as a Capitol Hill vs. First Hill argument… when the two neighborhoods have nothing to do with it. The only debate on the Cap Hill portion is whether to loop around Cal Anderson.

        I happen to think 12th Ave is the better alignment south of Swedish because of the developing community up there and the potential for a great walkable neighborhood serving SU and countless county workers.

        I’ve been wishing for SDOT to study 12th Ave with a cut through SU to Broadway that actually compromises on the issue, rather than a couplet that makes neither option happy.

        Where’s the argument for a Broadway alignment south of Swedish’s entrance? What’s there?

      2. Yesler Terrace, which will in a few years be hugely expanded with lots of residential and office towers.

      3. Thank you for your comments regarding the “Cap Hill vs First Hill” crap the Stranger came up with. If anything the fight would be “12th Ave and CD vs First Hill”. Cap Hill just wants the Aloha extension.

    2. It gained traction because a lot of people wanted the streetcar nearer to them. It doesn’t look like the best route, but it is good that people want the streetcars. Hopefully this can lead to a future line better serving the Central District.

      1. I think that this streetcar makes an extension to the CD more probably, not less. If the tracks on Jackson are shared it allows you to get further into the CD without the costs of getting into downtown.

      2. As part of this project, would it be possible to put in the necessary switch in the tracks at the corner of Jackson and 14th, as well as a block or so of tracks extending east on Jackson? This would enable the line to be continued up the hill on Jackson later without disrupting service on the First Hill line. Same principle as the Pine Street Stub Tunnel downtown.

    3. Seattle has a strong tradition of grassroots community activism. Sometimes this has been negative activism (NIMBYism) that has frustrated planner, but often it has been positive activism, citizens lobbying the city to invest in making their neighborhoods great places. While at times this activism can be frustrating to “professionals”, the reality is that Seattle has one of the highest quality of life rating of any american city, and a good chunk of that is due to citizen activism.

      We also have the most educated citizenry in the country. There are thousands of extremely creative, knowledgeable citizens that have great ideas and want to make Seattle a great city. Unlike most cities where ideas and decisions come from the top, Seattle politics is characterized by ideas bubbling up from the grassroots.

      Route 8, one of metro’s most successful routes, was the result of a grassroots movement led by Capitol Hill Community Council years ago. It was citizen activism that stopped construction of the RH Thompson Express Way and saved the Arboretum. The Seattle Streetcar Network master plan was conceived by citizen activists as well.

      12th Ave got traction for two reasons:

      1.) Citizen activists in the 12th Ave area wanted a streetcar on 12th Ave, and Seattle respects citizen activism
      2.) Building a streetcar on 12th Ave (two-way) is a great idea.

      There is tremendous economic development potential (which is not the same thing as theoretical zoning capacity) on 12th Ave and it would serve a community long neglected and connect two vibrant, culturally rich communities, long separated: Capitol Hill and the Central District.

      However, as great an idea as a streetcar on 12th is, it is highly questionable whether that would fulfill the critical purpose of connecting First Hill employment centers to light rail. The loop gained traction because activists believed that it was an opportunity to combine a great idea (streetcar on 12th) with a necessary idea (serving First Hill). Proponents believe it is a win-win. Others strongly disagree.

      It is good practice to kill two birds with one stone; it maximizes the return on public investment. It is, however, very bad practice to throw a stone between two birds and miss both of them. Some believe that the loop is win-win; others (including this blog’s editorial staff) believe it is lose-lose and fails to serve both First Hill and 12th Ave.

      Technical analysis, reasoned argument and citizen activism will all play a role in determining the final outcome. It can be frustrating at times, but those of you who yearn for a strong man to force issues and disregard process are free to move to Chicago. This is who we are, and our city is better because of it.

      1. All great points. It’s true that while most of us support the Broadway option, a 12th Ave Streetcar is still a good idea in the long run. I was thinking you could route a streetcar up 12th to Madison, then up Madison to 15th and down 15th to Volunteer Park.

      2. I agree. If SDOT chooses an alignment that does not include 12th, I think the 12th ave folks should lobby for 2 things: Bus service (9, 60, 49) on 12th ave in the short-term, and a streetcar added to the streetcar plan for the long-term. That area does need transit service, after all.

  11. Tony points out that (in the update) two reasons why the Western alignments might actually get a relatively low fraction of potential riders. (West of broadway has more transit options and the streetcar would be slower if it went on the western route). You summarize this by saying that the 12th ave couplet might perform worse in reality. You really hate that couplet.

    1. I do. But his quote already spoke about the impact on the western alignments; I thought I’d point out the impact on a 12th ave couplet to broaden things up a bit in an obvious direction.

      1. But the couplet has good travel times and 12th ave currently has lousy transit so those reasons that tony points out are reasons that the couplet isn’t all bad. It is still a mistake, but it does have some advantages (over the west of broadway alignments, at least).

      2. Lets just put this this way. Two-way Broadway has the fewest detracting factors. Western options have slower speeds and 12th Ave has accessibility problems. In either case these alignments won’t capture the same percent of potential riders as the two-way Broadway would.

  12. Broadway seems like the natural location. It’s right in the middle of both west and east sides, putting the whole 9th-to-15th / Melrose-to-15th area within walking distance. It’s the main street in the area, and at least north of Union it’s a focus point for pedestrians. (And we should be making it more so south of Union.)

    I thought the park and western alignments were being considered because they were significantly cheaper. If they’re not, there’s no reason for them, because the western alignments will slow down the streetcar (already a problem for the 60), and the park couplet makes for a long distance between northbound and southbound.

  13. “In addition, the numbers could actually over-represent 12th Ave couplet riders since none of the facts of riding the alignment — including its smaller walkshed — are really considered in a ridership potential model.”

    Actually, SDOT used the midpoint between the northbound and southbound stations and drew a 1/4 mile circle around those to determine the area served by the 12th Ave couplet. I.e. Marion St between 10th and 11th in the center of SU’s campus and the block bounded by 10th, 11th, Jefferson and Terrace. The assumption is that average walking distance is the critical factor rather than maximum walking distance, meaning that the expectation is that a pedestrian would be indifferent between a trip that takes them 3 minutes in one direction and 7 minutes in the other and a trip that takes 5 minutes in each direction. You are free to debate this assumption, but SDOT did consider the walkshed issue.

    Again, the ridership numbers are fairly comparable. It is not really a question of which route serves more people, but of which people we want to serve. The Boren/Seneca alignment is clearly far superior for Virginia Mason despite the longer travel times, but it is also far worse for Seattle University, which is at least as big of a trip generator as any of the hospitals.

    Seattle University is a “First Hill employment center” and serving them is a critical part of the scope of this project. If you look at it, SU’s “front door” is at 12th and Marion. Swedish’s front door is at Broadway and Columbia, and Virginia Mason’s front door is at Terry and Seneca, one block west of Boren. The three routes under consideration could easily be renamed the Virginia Mason route (Boren), the Swedish route (Broadway) and the Seattle University route (12th). Harborview is the fourth major employer, and Yesler Terrace is the fifth 800 pound gorilla in the mix, but these two were never within the walkshed of the First Hill light rail station. Virginia Mason, Swedish and Seattle University were.

    Virginia Mason and Swedish have found allies for their preferred alignments in Harborview and Yesler Terrace, while SU has found allies for their alignment in the Central District and Capitol Hill Housing, but at the end of the day this whole debate is about which one of those three is going to get their preferred route. Now that these numbers have come out, things are looking a lot better for the Swedish route and a lot worse for the Virginia Mason route, but I would not count the Seattle University route out just yet.

    1. One thing to keep in mind is that the 2-way Broadway route serves Swedish’s front door and also SU’s back door, so it really is a good compromise. Virginia Mason can get by on bus service, as many have pointed out.

  14. There should be a couple more stops along this route. With reference to the two-way Broadway proposal, I think there should be another stop on Broadway, north of the Pike St. stop. There is a pretty heavy concentration of retail and residential traffic along there. Adding in an additional stop in that stretch would considerably add to the usability and convenience of the line, while only adding about 30 seconds to the trip each way. Well worth it.

    What’s wrong with SLU or Portland Streetcar stop spacing? Unless we want to have redundant bus service on this corridor, the streetcar needs to stop more than every 8-10 blocks. I’m not saying the streetcar needs to stop every 2 blocks like the busses do, but how about every 4-5 blocks?

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