At the First Hill Streetcar open house, SDOT showed this construction schedule, which I thought you might find interesting. The first tracks will be built on Broadway, and the construction will move toward Pioneer Square from there. You can click on the image for a higher resolution, or go below the fold for “zoom-ins”.
How fast is this thing…?
Like hitchin’ a ride on a turtle!
Great start! I can hardly wait to see this SC in place and operating.
But it is only a start. The extension to Aloha St needs to be built. It makes no sense to have the major transfer point between LR and SC be located at the terminus of the SC line. This transfer point really needs to be an intermediate SC stop to maximize it’s utility. The Mayor has really dropped the ball on this.
After that, I’d locate a turning loop and staging area near the ferry terminal to add another intermodal transfer point, and the two SC lines really need to be connected via a couplet on 4th/5th. It makes no sense to have two disconnected SC lines in the same city.
Cars are double ended – a turning loop isn’t necessary. Extending to the ferry terminal is a good idea.
Agreed. But having a loop at the terminus has certain operational advantages if the line is operated at low headways — such as you would see if you built the 4th/5th couplet and then inter-lined the two SC lines in the P.Square neighborhood.
The two Streetcars need to be connected, and run the same cars. There are advantages to having larger numbers of a single type of vehicle.
Even if we do not run service on the connector, we still need to have that connector, so that we can shift vehicles arround between teh Routes, what do we do if we have 2 SLUTS out of service, without the connector, we are majorly impacted, with teh connector, we shift 1 car from the First Hill route to the Slut route, and we are good ;)
Aloha is not far enough. It really needs to go to the U District so it can replace the 49 rather than be an overlay on the transit service that is there now.
Why would anyone go from Cap Hill to the UW on the SC when they can get their on LR?
Really lazarus? What about all the stops between Capitol Hill and the U District on 10th Ave E and Harvard? The extension would be a replacemnt for Route 49 so the First Hill Streetcar would be a little useful.
The purpose of the streetcar, to the extent that it exists, is to increase capacity for that corridor.
There’s no question that extra capacity can be useful for the current segment (though that doesn’t mean the project is justified). It’s questionable whether the capacity is useful as far as Aloha. But there’s also no question that the extra capacity is totally not needed north of Aloha and south of Harvard/Eastlake (where the 49 splits from the 70-series).
Given that we’re going to have the streetcar, I believe the most sensible thing to do would be to reroute the 49 to use 12th between John and Jackson, and then to continue south to Othello along the 36’s route (what the draft TMP calls Corridor 3). That maintains the transfer point, and also provides high-frequency grid service to a neighborhood that doesn’t currently have any.
Given the choice of extending the Aloha extension all the way to the U, or extending the existing SLU SC to the U, the obvious winner would be extending the SLU SC up Eastlake to the U. The ridership potential is higher, and it adds rail capacity to a route that will not have any when U-Link is operating.
Street Cars are not meant for this type of long distance travel. This is what the Light Rail/Subway is best at and it is already being built. This street car is really meant to connect people TO the Light Rail
Can a streetcar handle the grade between Aloha and UW?
When Capitol Hill station opens, the 49 should be merged with the 60 to make a frequent north-south route.
Unfortunately there will be an overlap between the streetcar which goes just between Aloha and Jackson, and buses which go beyond these, potentially the same bus. But there doesn’t seem to be any way to avoid it.
There is basically no point on the 49 between Aloha and the U-District with enough demand for a streetcar, except maybe on a segment the potential-future-streetcar 70 serves anyway. An extention of the streetcar to the U-District would serve little purpose except to duplicate light rail, especially once Brooklyn Station opens.
I’m pretty sure the #49 used to be a streetcar route, way back when.
I think there’s solid demand on Broadway/10th all the way out to Roanoke, but nothing past that. I’m all for building it right up to the 520 overpass and terminating there. If care is taken with regard to stop placement it could be a very good corridor and feeder to the Central Link stop.
The only reason to continue on to the U-district is because you’re already most of the way there, and that presumably there would be a good transfer opportunity at the bottom of the hill. But you can make that transfer with a short, steep walk down to Eastlake on Roanoke.
Regarding that hill, it’s a long grade, but I don’t think it’s any steeper than what FHSC is doing on Yesler.
I’m pretty sure the #49 used to be a streetcar route, way back when…
…when streetcars had nearly 100% mode share
And went everywhere.
And came every 5 minutes or less, compensating for their lack of speed.
None of which is on the table.
I thought I heard that modern streetcars have less ability to climb hills than old streetcars.
The area between 1st and 5th on Jackson is so frequently congested that the streetcar often won’t go to its terminal, instead being turned back at 5th ave.
incorrect.
Depends on where the cross overs are placed. Remember, there’s no wire coming down hill on Jackson, so the cars need to get back under wire for the uphill journey.
Gordon, during game days, when Jackson between 5th and 1st is heavily congested, you believe the streetcar is going to try and get to its terminal a couple of blocks away no matter how long it takes? It will not. It will go no further than 5th.
there are no cross-over switches on the line currently so the only way they’ll be able to turn back is at the terminals (both ends)
Then that will not work on game days. Unless SPD blocks those lanes off.
I’m pretty sure I saw some crossovers on the engineering diagrams they had at the open house. One was near 8th for the lead track, and I think there was one on 14th too. There may have been more, I wasn’t trying to remember that much detail. Someone with a camera might want to snap some pics at the next open house this week.
David … at 8th & Jackson there will be a “Y” switch that goes from the inbound/outbound tracks to the yard lead located in the center. This track will then curve onto 8th.
To use this to reverse direction, the streetcar would have to stop at the 8th/Jackson station. The driver would have to reverse direction onto the yard lead, stop again and go forward onto the wrong track at the 8th ave station and then reverse direction again to go uphill.
That would be a logistical nightmare nevermind the streetcar is in traffic lanes at the station which would require someone stopping traffic.
Most likely the only switch that will actually be powered will be the uphill track to yard lead track … the rest can be spring switches that force the streetcar onto the right track (like at both ends of the SLUT)
there were plans for cross-over switches … one at Broadway & Terrace and I think one on 12th Ave … but they have since disappeared from the schematic (at least that I saw) … will see if I can get an electronic copy of the route plan to post here
David … here is a visualization of one of the crossovers (Broadway/Terrace St) that is not on the current plans anymore
http://www.seattlestreetcar.org/about/docs/nov/06-bway-terrace-aerial.jpg
If this is correct, this line will be absolutely unusable in game day traffic (or really, standard rush-hour traffic). Forcing through the 2nd/4th intersection is not going to work during heavy traffic unless the streetcar is given a dedicated lane. During events it can take a half hour to get from 5th avenue to 3rd.
Banning left turns from Jackson to the 2nd ave extension could fix some of it. All that traffic would then be forced onto the awkward 5th/Airport zigzag, which is plenty congested already, but it could work. It would still be ugly in the uphill direction, but not as bad.
Honestly, the answer is either reserved ROW or an ability to truncate the line during events. If we can’t do either of these it will be just plain broken.
Presumably, the people who design streetcar lines are the best and the brightest. How could they not build the streetcar to be able to turn back at 5th when it encounters a sea of unmoving traffic before and after sporting events?
Sam is correct in that the streetcars can be turned back at 5th and Jackson in order to stay on schedule. It’s in the operating plan;
“For schedule recovery, streetcars may turnback at the 5th and Jackson platform. The streetcar will pull into the platform as an in-lane stop. The operator will switch cabs; raise the pantograph, and place a TWC call for an streetcar signal phase to allow the vehicle to initiate an eastbound run from this location.”
http://clerk.seattle.gov/~public/meetingrecords/2012/transportation20120228_2b.pdf
…and the two SC lines really need to be connected via a couplet on 4th/5th.
A wise man named “Lazarus” recently wrote: “Why would anyone go from Cap Hill to the UW on the SC when they can get there on LR?”
So why would anyone go from the I.D. to the other end of downtown on the SC when they could get there on LR?
Just say no to pointless and/or redundant projects. Doesn’t that map above have enough ridiculous zig-zags and u-turns on it already?
Do you think that maybe folks would want to go farther than Westlake? ID to SLU, for example.
Then they’re better off taking subway to streetcar.
Or at least they would be if Seattle’s tunnel stops weren’t insanely overbuilt. It shouldn’t even be close.
As I’ve said before, building a streetcar shadow right on top of our only segment of truly urban-scaled subway is basically admitting the DSTT is horribly designed.
You may think that spending hundreds of millions on a segment that wouldn’t have any rational reason to be on the table if the thing directly beneath it had been done correctly is no big deal, but I think it’s a near-criminal waste.
We built the tunnel badly. It has a 2-minutes-longer transfer penalty than it should — and more to the point, it has a psychological transfer penalty that shouldn’t exist at all.
But it will still be faster than a surface streetcar the whole way. So suck it up and deal with the transfer. Don’t throw more good money after bad.
What about Yesler Terrace to SLU? That would be a three-seat-ride (ignoring bus possibilities) when it could be a one-seat ride.
I won’t ignore uncomfortable realities in the name of indulging hypotheticals. Yesler Terrace to anywhere in or beyond downtown will be three times faster to WALK than to include the streetcar in any way.
Meanwhile, the new 18 happens to provide a 1-seat for the very trip you just suggested, for those inclined to wait longer and walk less.
And just to nip it in the bud, do NOT claim that the downtown couplet will be needed for “Fremont/Ballard service.” If Ballard trips become permanently dependent on something that moseys through every stoplight in Little Saigon and fights traffic all the way up from Jackson, then all hope for this city is lost.
Is a redundant streetcar acceptable if the DSTT is at capacity? Or is it still a waste then?
By the time the DSTT is at capacity, there had better be a second subway line or we’re screwed.
(Which is to say that the DSTT won’t be at vehicle or human capacity until hundreds of thousands of people are passing through it every day, and that won’t be any time soon.)
I think the ridership demand for SC on 4th/5th in Downtown Seattle will be a wee bit higher than ridership demand for SC north of Aloha on 10th. Because I’m pretty darn sure that all those DT office buildings will generate more demand than…..than what?? The Lake View Cemetery??
And where would you go to connect to the U from 10th anyhow? Over to Montlake? Certainly not! You’d go over to Eastlake and cross the University Bridge. But if you are going to do that, then it would be a no brainer to just extend the SLU SC up Eastlake Ave and go straight to the U. You’d have higher ridership, more rail coverage, and probably lower cost too.
And Seattle doesn’t have a “subway”.
“By the time the DSTT is at capacity, there had better be a second subway line or we’re screwed.”
So we’re screwed, in other words. Transit gets built around here some twenty years after it’s needed, so it’ll be twenty years after the DSTT fills up before we get a relief line.
Wait, Laz, was that entire reply directed at me?
When have I ever expressed enthusiasm for any of this city’s approach to streetcar evangelism, much less some 49 replacement?
Look at that ridiculous meat-hook on the map above. Those who drew that line with a straight face have learned nothing from the 2, the 3, the 16, or any of the myriad examples of detour-based transit that have helped cripple the ability to move around this city auto-free for decades.
And anyone who says the meat-hook was “necessary” for reasons of traffic or grade is lying. Boren is no steeper than parts of the Broadway and Jackson segments. No, what clearly happened is this:
Someone with development stars in their eyes insisted that the streetcar had to go through the middle of the new Yesler Terrace (which hasn’t even been designed yet and totally could have been oriented to face Boren). Then someone else expressed concerns about the streetcar having its own signal to turn from Jackson onto Yesler. Then a third person came up with the idea of “solving” both concerns by having it go straight all the way to 14th.
And voilà, there are now 8 extra blocks on the damned thing.
The other streetcar proposals from the city’s “high-capacity, low-money, 20%-baked corridor study” fare no better under scrutiny. Eastlake was deemed to have “decent” return on investment, even though that return was ridership in the low five digits… in 2030! Moreover, the developing spine of Eastlake remains mostly residential; Eastlake is not actually a regular or even occasional destination for most of the city. So 8,000 Eastlake residents would use the line daily, and no one else would use it ever, ever, ever. How is that a “decent” return?
If Ballard gets stuck with a streetcar as its primary rail thanks to that dumb study, we might as well give this whole city a Darwin Award. That the Ballard-Fremont proposal got “good” numbers (upwards of 20,000 boardings) suggests only that NW Seattle is desparate for fixed transit. But at barely any time savings, with any number of bottlenecks and lousy connections, that plan fall so short of “good” it’s not even funny.
And downtown is downtown. It has a subway beneath it and dozens of buses traversing it. And you can walk most of it within the average wait time for the proposed 4th/5th streetcar. All of its “demand” would simply be leeched from that which already exists (including feet). Nobody is going to be flooding out of office buildings just to use something so tragically unnecessary, and spending our limited funds on it when so much of this city’s suffers torturous transit would be pathetic.
Seattle doesn’t have a “subway.”
Gee. There are trains running under it. And at some point in the future, those trains will run all the way to Roosevelt before surfacing. And they won’t have to fight with buses for flow.
That’s a subway.
It’s not a good subway — denying urban residents the basic ability to walk to it and to use it for trips of less than 3-5 miles that underpins all good urban transit everywhere else on earth — but it is a subway.
And when 150,000-200,000 people are using it, then we can talk about needing additional downtown capacity. Again, we’ll be waiting awhile for that conversation.
The main point of connecting the SLU line and the FH line via 4th/5th is to provide access to the points in between IDS and Westlake. For example the Central Library, city & county government office complex, a couple million sq ft of office space, retail, etc.
Do remember that between University and Terrace there is a quite steep hill between 3rd, 4th, and 5th avenues. Sure it isn’t so much a problem to walk down, but can really suck to walk up.
Of course the ridership on 4th and 5th Ave streetcar corridor increases by quite a bit if the streetcar is ever extended up Eastlake, or out to Fremont/Ballard.
Personally I think Seattle has enough transit and central core circulation demand to justify Light Rail in the DSTT, a grade separated corridor for Ballard/Uptown/Belltown/Sodo/West Seattle, as well as streetcar lines on the Waterfront, 1st Ave, and the 4th/5th couplet.
…and yet for all of those supposed demand needs, the best ridership number they could fudge for the 4th/5th couplet was 11,500 individual boardings…
20 years from now…
and mostly cannibalized from nearby options that already exist.
https://seattletransitblog.wpcomstaging.com/2011/07/25/tmp-hct-analysis-ii-the-efficiency-winner/
If that’s a priority project, our priorities are whackalicious.
d.p., do you think people will do the “six block shuffle” and walk from the 6th Avenue streetcar stop to the Yesler & Broadway streetcar stop? (And vice versa?)
Figure it out… if you did this, would you be able to catch the *previous* streetcar from the one you got off of?
What would be the fastest route from “points south” on Link to First Hill? Backtrack from Capitol Hill? Catch a trolleybus, most likely.
As currently constructed, it seems that the First Hill Streetcar is two separate routes: one goes from 14th Ave to Capitol Hill Link, and the other goes from 14th Ave to Pioneer Square. It seems like very few people would actually ride across from one side of the 14th Avenue station to the other.
This may be OK, and the line may actually perform just fine as a pair of unrelated lines stuck end to end. But it implies that the Jackson St. segment is really useful primarily as a starter for some other line — such as a revived Waterfront Streetcar or a First Avenue streetcar or a streetcar running off to the east somewhere.
I agree with most of your rhetorical insinuations.
As for the specifics:
Do you think people will do the “six block shuffle” and walk from the 6th Avenue streetcar stop to the Yesler & Broadway streetcar stop?
If the new Yesler Terrace has stairs down to Jackson (which I would think it would) and is generally safe to walk through, then yes.
If you did this, would you be able to catch the *previous* streetcar from the one you got off of?
No, unfortunately. I’d guess the meathook detour will regularly cost 4-6 minutes — enough to infuriate every single time, but still far less than the headways we’re ever going to see on the line.
Regarding all those European trams that provide such useful supplemental movement over short distances in large cities: I dare you to find me a single one on which trams come less often than 5 minutes (or 7.5 at the very worst).
What would be the fastest route from “points south” on Link to First Hill?
If we never bother to fix the 2/12/3/4, then Capitol Hill + backtrack at busy times and trolleybus at less busy times. (FHSC might compete if headed no further north than Harborview… maybe… with serious signal priorities… and even then I doubt it.)
I we ever bother to fix the downtown-eastbound nightmare, then trolleybus at all times.
If money were available … i’d extend the SLUT down eastlake to at least Campus Parkway (or better yet Brooklyn Station) … and then convert the 49s route to trolley connecting at Eastlake & Harvard with the Slut.
The FHS should loop around Broadway/Aloha/10th Ave like the 9 does now.
At least that’s what I would suggest the city does Capitol Hill trolley-wise
Actually, I saw a proposal to extend the SLU SC “up” Eastlake Ave and tie-in to LR at 65th. And there were a couple of stops in the U. Dist.
It was a nice concept, but a stop at Brooklyn Station would probably be more cost effective in the near term.
Just out of curiosity – what should the Mayor have done? The ST funds to build the thing are used up, you can’t get to Aloha with those $. Prop 1 lost.
For decades, tens of thousands of Seattle residents have been complaining that there isn’t a meandering streetcar to slowly take them from Capitol Hill to the International District, and vice versa. Our prayers have been answered. It’s almost here!
Sam’s a stopped clock, but this is his “twice a day” moment.
Don’t feed the troll.
Like most transit route planning, people are way too focused on the end points. A malady that seems to be particularly common for rail lines. People say “who would want to travel from endpoint x to endpoint y?” Ignoring that every single pair of stops is a potential trip and that people most likely will be riding the line in segments much shorter than the entire length of the line.
I don’t think anyone with a clue believes the only reason for the 48 is to shuttle people (slowly) between Loyal Heights and Mt. Baker station. Why then does everyone seem to think FHSC riders will be going all the way from Pioneer Square or the International District to Capitol Hill station?
I’ve ridden the streetcar in Portland, most people aren’t riding the thing end to end. Most just ride a few stops and much of the ridership seems to get on/off where the line intersects with either the Blue/Red or Green/Yellow MAX lines.
Speaking of Portland, I was impressed with their willingness to give up traffic lanes for transit. 5th and 6th had one lane for buses, one for MAX, and only one for GP traffic with no lanes for parking. MAX had TSP downtown which made the trip reasonably quick.
The streetcar is much slower due to the lack of an exclusive lane and TSP. But it is still well patronized in downtown and the Pearl District. In the portion South of the intersection with the Green/Yellow line at PSU I was the only rider going to and from the South Waterfront on a Sunday Afternoon. The Tram was equally deserted.
Chris: https://seattletransitblog.wpcomstaging.com/2011/12/20/who-will-ride-the-first-hill-streetcar-2/
No one is discounting the benefit of “corridor” transit of which rail lines (in the real world) tend to take better advantage than scattered bus routes. But if the majority of those “potential trips” that random stop pairs represent are badly served by the transit at hand, then you’re probably not building something very good.
For the reasons Zach meticulously enumerates, only intra-Broadway trips will see significant benefit from the existence of this line. And with 12-15 minute headways, that only really applies to trips on the longer end of the intra-Broadway spectrum.
North Broadway -> Pike/Pine really sees no benefit. Cap Hill Link -> Madison sees a tangible benefit only on very rainy days. But access to Little Saigon from Capitol Hill will be unprecedented… though it would have been even better without the detour.
Portland Streetcar usage is incomparable: you are correct that people rarely take it very far, and yet with trains only every 15 minutes, most of those short trips are “happen to see it coming” trips rather than “it was a genuine boon to my journey” trips. Downtown Portland and the Pearl District also provide an über-dense grid of busy, mixed-use destinations of a sort that exists almost nowhere in Seattle, and certainly not along this corridor: denser and busier than the I.D., more consistently dense and busy than any single part of Capitol Hill, and much more built up than anywhere in between.
And while endpoints aren’t everything, it’s fair to say that the Portland Streetcar’s connection to NW 23rd Ave provides a stable chunk of ridership as well much of the line’s original raison d’être. Now imagine if, before heading from the Pearl to 23rd, the route took a full 2/3 mile detour to the east, doing a complete circle around the bus station and through the train station’s drop-off loop before returning to Northrup. Would anybody from the NW still bother to use the thing? (Especially when there are more direct between 23rd and downtown.)
That is precisely what our meathook-shaped route proposes to do.
If it looks ridiculous on paper, it will probably ten times more ridiculous in reality.
Chris,
No one “with a clue” is focusing on the endpoints. They’re focusing on things like this:
– Between Pioneer Square and Jackson/14th, the streetcar will run at lower frequency than the combined 7/14/36, and at different stops.
– The roundabout path it takes from First Hill to the ID will attract few users from competing services and walking.
As Zach said:
Yes, the streetcar will absolutely facilitate intra-Broadway trips. And that’s why I’m pushing for the Aloha extension. But we could have gotten an even better mobility improvement by merging the 9/36/49/60 into a single route between the U-District and Othello, and adding frequency on the 10/11/12/14S to compensate for the loss of Pine and Madison service. (Obviously this is excluding the portion of the 60 south of Beacon Hill.)
Doesn’t it seem a bit odd that we’re spending millions on technology when the main improvement is a service change? (Especially when those millions could be much better spent elsewhere?)
Ah, but Aleks, you’re assuming the FHSC was born in some sort of rational universe, rather than a political ‘apology’ for the loss of a LINK station. Zach nailed it earlier – this will be great for people who want to cruise Broadway and stay dry on a rainy day. Or who want to go from Broadway to the ID without going through downtown.
And dp continues to be correct IMO – if we were able to fix our east-west ETB issues, it will forever be faster to use them than to get on the FHSC.
JohnS: We’re building the FHSC for a silly political reason, yes. But so long as we have it, we might as well make the most of it. If that means spending even more capital money on an extension north to Aloha today, and east to 23rd later, then so be it.
As d.p. is fond of pointing out, streetcars used to come every 2 minutes on most major arterials in Seattle. That could happen again someday. It’s silly to build tracks on every street in case we eventually have the political will and money to run at that frequency, but it’s also silly not to leverage an investment that we’re making, even if it’s for the wrong reasons.
it’s a little more nuanced …
the first rails will be in the ground by SCCC … however, construction will begin in simultaneous places. For instance, Jackson St. has a ton of utility relocation that needs to be done and can only be done on weekends due to the ETB OCS
the intersection of Boren and Broadway will have to be dug up for the installation of giant storm-water retention tanks and associated re-plumbing of the storm-water drainage system.
Broadway itself needs a bunch of rebuilding in certain places do to the age of the sub-roadbed, etc …
If we are only talking about rails in the street though … then think SCCC north and south first … then Madison/Broadway intersection, then Broadway/Boren intersection … then the parts in between on Broadway.
Another major component (according to the folks that were there) will be the modification of Jackson St. where it passes over the King St. Station tracks (between 4th ave & 2nd ave) since that part of the street is technically a bridge
Honestly I hadn’t thought about it until I saw the item for it in the schedule.
I very quickly thought “oh wow, that thing’s ancient”. I hope that retrofit doesn’t blow too much of the budget. I think it’s built pretty heavy anyway.
Wasn’t there another project, part of the HSR funding, to relocate the support columns for the Jackson St. bridge, so as to allow for the restructuring of the northern station throat for King St. Station, so that all the station tracks can lead into either tunnel track with faster crossovers?
Is that going to be done at the same time, or is that bridge going to be rebuilt TWICE, which would be kind of stupid?
Does anyone know if the entire roadway on Jackson will be rebuilt, or if the city is going to just redo the section of the road that has rail?
the entire street will be rebuilt (at least between 1st and 14th aves … mostly due to all the utility relocation that needs to be done as well as the conditions of the street.
Jackson will remain concrete road when done and Broadway where repaved will remain asphalt (with the exception of the slab-track ROW)
The city utility-cut rule is that cuts made in asphalt can be patched and smoothed over, but if an excavation is done on a concrete street, the utility must replace the entire slab they cut into. So Jackson basically is going to get a (needed anyway) complete repave out of this.
…and if you’ve been on Jackson from 12th down the hill lately, it’s pretty clear that Jackson needs that rebuild anyway :)
I bet they find a lot of bricks under the pavement along Jackson – maybe most of the way!
The First Hill Streetcar is a political project, not a transit one. The mode was chosen by the ST Board. Its pretzel shape is necessary due to right of way and fiscal constraints at 12th Avenue South and South Jackson Street. Its capital and operating costs have a high opportunity cost. The SLU cars will not be able to run on the FH line as they do not have battery power. Seattle has no funds to extend to East Aloha Street nor connect the two lines.
Other than that, what’s not to like about the ‘FH Booby Prize’.
I’m voting they all get painted lemon yellow.
It is a political route, but it does have some transit value. It will triple the frequency between Bwy/Denny and 12th/Jackson. It may be able to get through the traffic on Jackson better than the buses.
It’s the beginning of a Center City streetcar network. In the future a line can be extended east to 31st/Jackson, south to Mt Baker stn, west to the waterfront, plus a north-south line downtown. The lines can potentially turn at any of these intersections, depending on how we want the lines to go.
“Seattle has no funds to extend to East Aloha Street.”
Yes, but that’s no different than us not having funds to build the Seattle Subway, covert the 120 to RapidRide, and put trolley BRT on Madison and 23rd. Over time money might be avallable for each of these projects, one by one.
Streetcars running East-West routes up and down the hills on either side of Rainer Valley make more sense to me than the current all-things-to-all-men light rail system.
In fact, I would have rather they used a heavy rail backbone like Sounder and cross hatched it with street cars for the hill climbs, rather than all the tunnels.
Agreed that this is a silly project to be spending this much capital on in the grand scheme of things, and clearly – as someone said earlier – it is driven more by politics than by true transit utility.
BUT, as long as it is already being built, I think we need to fight hard for the extension to Aloha. If anything, the stretch of Broadway between the current terminus and Aloha is better suited than any other stretch long the line for a sreetcar. There’s a lot of commerce and increasing residential along that stretch, and the streetscape would lend it self perfectly for a streetcar. IMO, it would be the gem of the entire line.
So, while this project is far from what most of us would choose to prioritize in a city that has a ton of more pressing transit needs, I think it is well worth the fight to get the Aloha extension.
Silly, to you James. Not to others. Why preface something that you are not in total agreement with, as silly? I live in West Seattle where we have essentially little, or more aptly, next to no spending on ST transit projects.
I don’t think this project is silly. But, of course, to each his own.
You must be new to “politics.” Are you twelve years old yet?
I’m agreeing with previous posters who imply that – given our pressing regional transit needs on many fronts – it seems silly to be spending this much money on this project given the benefits. Even in terms of streetcars, there are other lines that have been identified as serving a greater population and providing more bang for the buck.
I say it’s political because it is. First Hill residents and businesses were promised a light rail line, but when costs proved to be too high for that, ST re-packaged the deal to include a supplemental streetcar line (technically still fullfilling their promise of rail service to First Hill). It would have been politically foolish for ST to break their original promise to First Hill residents and businesses and then not to provide any sort of compensation (i.e. the streetcar line).
I understand why they’re doing it, I’m just saying it’s driven more by politics than actual transit utility.
In any case, I’m not sure why this set you off so much. Of course you can disagree, but there’s no reason to resort to insults.
I agree with this; at the time of the ST2 vote, I thought the project was not needed. But, the voters approved the package, and now that the First Hill streetcar is a fait acompli, (or at least it will be in a few years) we might as well make the best of the situation.
Is there anything technologically unique about a “streetcar” versus “light rail”.
Given that (as I calculate) this is 3% grade, could they not have run a single LINK car up and down the hill in the same fashion?
the LINK LRVs are wider than the streetcars … and they cannot make as sharp turns as the streetcar … and they run on 1500vDC … whereas the ETBs and the streetcars run on 750v DC (waterfront streetcar used to run on 600vDC)
Light rail vehicles aren’t restricted to 1500vdc. We are at 1500vdc because of the gradient from I-5 to Tukwila. The system could have ran at 600 or 750 volts otherwise. I believe also the desire to run 4 car trains is the other reason why 1500vdc was selected.
Portland MAX and the Streetcar runs at 600vdc, which allows simple power sharing. The substations are all virtually the same throughout the entire network. There are pictures around of the streetcar on MAX. MAX could operate on the streetcar line but it is too wide at the platforms.
Brian … I realize that … I was just answering why we couldn’t just use a LINK LRV for the FHS …
the LINK LRVs couldn’t make some of the turns that the streetcar will.
the minimum curve radius of the Inekon Streetcars is 18m (59.1ft) … the Kinkisharyo LRVs … it is 25m (82ft)
As for the 1500vDC … has nothing to do with gradients and everything to do with how many power substations were required (more volts = less substations)
MAX trains cannot run on the PDX streetcar lines for the same reason LINK can’t on ours … minimum curve radius
I’m sure if we’d asked Kinkisharyo to make some LRV’s with an 18m turn radius they could have come up with something. After all they’ve build cars for Boston’s Green Line.
As such there is really no difference between modern streetcars and LRVs. Though as a general rule the former tends to have a tighter turning radius, smaller loading gauge, lower top speed, lack MU capability, lack self-leveling, and be shorter. This makes the costs somewhat less than a “big” LRV.
Actually Brian is right about why ST initially specified 1500VDC for the Link LRVs. Higher voltage equals less current for the same amount of energy, which will be very important when 4-car trains weighing nearly 1/2 million pounds start climbing the roller-coaster grades between the U-District and the airport. But Gordon is also correct that the substations can be spaced further apart when higher voltages are used.
“I’m sure if we’d asked Kinkisharyo to make some LRV’s with an 18m turn radius they could have come up with something.”
I believe Kinkisharyo did bid on the vehicle contract for the FHS with their new hybrid streetcar that they debuted last year.
http://www.ameritram.com/
I guess it depends on which Link cars you are talking about John.
Tacoma Link should really be rebranded as the Tacoma Streetcar … calling it Tacoma Link just confuses people
The difference between light rail and streetcars is marketing, not technology. Every “difference” between them has exceptions. Light rail doesn’t share a lane with cars, except MAX does downtown. Streetcars don’t skip local stops, except Seattle’s “rapid streetcar” concept has only one stop on Westlake between Mercer Street and the Fremont Bridge. The manufacturers have a streetcar model that’s slightly smaller than a light rail model, but that’s no different than a Corolla vs an Explorer.
aw: many projects were approved by the 1996 voters that were not implemented and the projected deferred or changed: I-90 two-way busway; NE 85th Street center access on I-405, the Link stations at NE 45th Street, South Graham and 200th streets, several bus routes, and most of North Sounder.
Rod: though West Seattle is getting only indirect benefits from its North KC subarea taxes, it does get transit benefit from Route 560, funded by south and east King County taxpayers.
Morgan: today, Yesler Terrace to SLU is a one-seat ride on routes 27-17.
through-routings are by their nature unstable. The 27 was only recently paired with the 17, and will likely be paired with something else when its schedule is thinned.
I wonder how many kayaks ST could purchase for all the capital being sunk into this?
IDS to CHS via ‘mini-locks’, going uphill and a cool slucebox going down. It’s great exercise, and very green, and probably just as effective as reducing congestion.
Don’t know about the others, but the I-90 two-way busway IS being built (it’s sucking up a lot of money and delaying East Link), and all of North Sounder is still on the agenda (the very first projects, such as the new Edmonds station, proved to be endlessly complicated, and then they started having to spend lots of money dealing with mudslides, so it’s gone rather slowly, but it’s still on the agenda).
What really should happen with the FHS … is that it should be connected to a new Waterfront Streetcar line going from Jackson all the way to at least Broad St … stopping at the Ferry Terminal, Pike Market/Aquarium, Pier66/Cruise Terminal & the Sculpture Park.
Yes this would require at least 3-4 more Trams … but since they will be built here that’s more jobs … and it would provide a valuable link the city has been missing since the sculpture park forced the line’s closure
And hey, there’ll be a maintenance base all ready. Why not?
Nathanel: yes, R8A is being funded, but by ST2; the busway was part of 1996 Sound Move that did not get implemented. Likewise, North Sounder was originally to be two-way with more trips. I doubt R8A is delaying East Link; it is more likely that R8A was delayed until ST was certain of East Link.
Brian and Morgan: yes, in 1940, there was a Broadway streetcar extending to the U District; streetcars could climb that grade. In about 1963, I-5 destroyed and installed a barrier in its market. Yes, the lack of a connection to the U District is yet another way in which the First Hill line is half-baked. The Seattle streetcars are all too short and too slow. They should be long enough to completely replace a bus route. It would be best if they replaced a diesel route rather than a trolleybus route.