94 Replies to “Sunday Open Thread: Taking Public Transit to the Trails”
What do you guys think would be the best way or justification for east-west transit service between West Seattle and SE Seattle?
What about for some sort of circulator?
West Seattle had circulators. They were ridership flops.
West Seattle now has two cross-town routes, the 50 and the 60. The 50 is a ridership flop, outside of the popular stretch from Alaska Junction to Alki Beach, which is often crush-loaded, and should be shifted to the 128 for better frequency and more capacity. I don’t see any better paths than what these two routes take for getting cross-town between southeast and West Seattle. There might be a better path for the 50 within West Seattle and within southeast Seattle, but I have no idea what will work.
The 60 is severely impacted by the lack of the South Park Bridge, which should be open later this year. It is also impacted by a knot stop at Arrowhead Gardens, which spends about 10 minutes picking up very few riders. If there is a way to move that stop to the street, the rest of the riders not stopping there would love Metro for moving the stop to the street. At least the 10-minute knot stop at the VA is gone.
The best justification? a one-seat ride to Seward Park! Or from the vantage point of southeast Seattleites, a one-seat ride to Alki Beach, but very few are taking advantage of it. Sadly, transit has to plan around frequent trips, not occasional recreational trips. On top of that, beaches have horrible neighborhood walksheds. Nevertheless, Alki Beach is one of the most popular bus stops … for West Seattleites. Don’t tell anyone about that majestic view of Mt. Baker, magnified by the effect of Elliott Bay, or even more people will flock to the beach.
I hope you will give your unconditional endorsement to King County Prop 1. Metro has bent over backwards for West Seattle in so many ways I have lost count. If Prop 1 fails, West Seattle faces a 27% bus service cut. Did I mention that the Highway 99 mitigation funding runs out at the end of 2015, and Metro still has to find some source of funding for the extra service West Seattle is getting? And then when the viaduct closes, it will only get worse, and Metro will need to find even more money for West Seattle-to-downtown bus service.
You are right to bring up the question of whether the 50 is justified. Any new route needs at least a year to mature. If Metro tries another path for the 50, and ridership fails to materialize by late 2015, I suspect that will be the first West Seattle route to get axed. But Metro didn’t make any capital investment into the route, and the stop sign for the 50 by SODO Station is hard to find between trees, unless you look hard for it. Unless RTA signage is brought to the stops by SODO Station, Columbia City Station, and Othello Station, and the stops are made more visible, the 50 was never really given a chance. One other improvement on the 50 is that the 50 no longer goes into the VA parking lot. Those going to the VA have a short walk up a hill. But the several minutes saved might bring back ridership, and even find them headed to Alki Beach.
The 50 isn’t bad from talking to Metro about it in the past. It’s ridership is incrementally growing they said and is actually profitable.
As for Prop 1 and the 27% cuts, it’s down to just 17% cuts for us like everyone else, we helped bother WSDOT & Inslee’s office from the West Seattle Transportation Coalition to renew our promised viaduct construction mitigation money through 2015. We’re also listed on the Move King County Now site as endorsers (or will be, once they update the site). It has to pass.
“The 50 isn’t bad from talking to Metro about it in the past. It’s ridership is incrementally growing they said and is actually profitable.”
If the 50 beachgoing crowd is paying the full cost of running the 50, then cool! But that crowd needs a lot more capacity when the sun comes out. The 50 buses are 30-footers. The 128 can, and often does, run 60-footers, and runs more often. I still say extend the 128 to Alki Beach, as an outstanding route anchor. It’s Admiral District dead-end is so tantalizingly close to what would become its most popular destination. The extension should pay for itself with Alki beachgoer fares. And routes that have good anchors on both ends avoid the political problem of non-bus-riders snapping pictures of “empty buses”.
The 50 is running with 30ftrs because a 40ft coach cannot make the turn from eastbound Admiral Way to Southbound California Avenue. The first shake up of the 50 they used 40ftrs but had to turn north on 44th Ave SW and then go around the block on SW College Street to California. In order to eliminate the running around the block, they swapped the route into smaller coaches.
I’ve also heard for some crush loads when Mercer Middle School gets out on Beacon Hill.
The problem with the 50 is that it offers very little unique value over other routes. The two tails at Alki Beach and Seward Park represent the only real unique coverage along the entire route. Beacon Hill to SODO is mostly redundant with Link, and SODO->West Seattle is mostly redundant with the 21. Until recently, the VA hospital detour made the 50 provide no significant time advantage for cross-town Ranier Valley->West Seattle trips over simply going downtown on Link and taking the C-line.
Now, it’s a bit better, but still, not great.
If I were designing things, I would have moved the Alki tail of the 50 to some other route, perhaps the 128, and converted the 50 into a shuttle between Seward Park, Othello, and Columbia City stations. A truncation like this would probably allow a tripling of the 50’s frequency with existing service hours. This would mean a bus connecting with every train (timed outbound connection at Columbia City Station, of course) during the periods when the 50 currently runs every 30 minutes, and a timed connection with every other train during the period where the 50 currently runs every 60 minutes.
But, alas, the service guidelines prohibit a route from running more frequently than twice an hour unless the capacity is needed to avoid overloads. The money has to be spent somewhere, so it instead gets spent on a slow, meandering, largely redundant route to West Seattle.
asdf, the Beacon Hill portion of the 50 doesn’t overlap with Link at all. In fact, most of the riders there are transferring from Link at Sodo to ride up to the stops along Columbian Wy S and 15th Ave S. I’d guess (without having seen stop-by-stop data) that outside of peak hours there are more riders on the Beacon Hill part of the 50 than the part you’d keep.
The 50 is a good route which suffers a chicken-and-egg problem because it’s a route that relies almost entirely on transfers without having the frequency to make those transfers easy.
Can you cite your claim about half an hour service as the limit?
Alki is one of the densest neighborhoods in West Seattle. We have the Water Taxi to take visitors to Alki Beach in addition to the 30 foot Route 50 buses. If Metro replaces the 50 with the 128 to Alki, they may turn the 1 seat ride to SODO into a 3 seat ride for many Alki residents who commute there, including quite a few who now use the 50 to commute to Starbucks Headquarters. Taking away the loop to the VA hospital is not a positive if you watch, as I do, disabled folks having to get off on Columbia and go up that hill on crutches. That loop was not a serious delay on the 50 except during rush hour and that was only because of the hospital’s poor traffic pattern. Brent, do you regularly use the 50 route and base your proposals on actual experience? I do, and I don’t think your suggestions for the 50 are very constructive.
“That loop was not a serious delay on the 50 except during rush hour.”
You and I have different ideas of “serious delay.” It was at least 5 minutes at all times of day. That is a *very* long time on a bus that mostly exists to serve short trips with transfers to Link or other buses.
I ride the 50 less than I used to but am very glad the VA loop is gone, and hope it stays that way. For those few passengers who have trouble climbing the short driveway, there are multiple other solutions for VA hospital access from just about anywhere.
Also, if Metro has to go through with the cuts and does the 128/50 substitution, Sodo is not a three-seat ride, but a two-seat ride. (56 -> Link or 21 at peak hour, or 128 -> 21 at High Point the rest of the time.)
Kathy,
I’m not sure which suggestions of mine for the 50 you are not liking.
The removal of the VA loop is already done. It is not a suggestion. I’ve said all along that the loop is tolerable on the 50 and a huge slow-down, but can be avoided by anyone wanting to avoid it, simply by taking the 50 from a Link station to their destination’s side of the VA. The VA knot has been costing a lot of ridership on the 60 (which I do ride, but a lot less often since the South Park Bridge is out, and a lot less when I had to spend 10 minutes winding through the VA parking lot to pick up or drop off nobody more often than not). The VA knot may come back at some point, but please don’t bring it back on the 60. The handful of riders going to the VA are not the only riders using the 60, and the VA needs to get more serious about getting buses through their parking lot much faster if they want special front door loop-de-loop service that only about one other hospital in the county has. If the VA cares about its clients who ride the bus, it could set up intercoms by the bus stops to have their valets hop in a van and come out and get the riders. Also, based on the number of riders using that stop, vs. the marginal time it takes to serve it, Metro has deemed the stop a violation of its Service Guidelines. The difference in scheduled time on the 60 since the knot was removed is 8 minutes. That’s how long it took to serve the stop under uncongested conditions. The guidelines don’t even talk about marginal ridership that would be added by serving the stop, which ought to be relevant since most who were using the front-door stop are still making due getting to the front door from the street, or coming from the 36 side of the campus.
I’ve suggested *adding* service to Alki Beach, on the 128. What about that do you not like? If you are simply wanting more frequency on the 50, I’m with you there, if the service hours can be found. But wouldn’t you also like a 1-seat ride to other portions of West Seattle and South Seattle Community College?
I’ve suggested real-time arrival signage, and making the stops by the stations more visible and pleasant to wait at. What about that do you find not very constructive?
I was one of the early defenders of the proposed 50, back when a lot of riders on the 34X and 39 were decrying the loss of their one-seat ride downtown (or, worse, having to ride on the 7!), and defenders of the 50 proposal were few and far between. I honestly expected the 50 to get a lot more ridership than it has. I’ve ridden on it a few times, with almost empty buses everywhere but the stretch between the Junction and Alki Beach, and crushloads between the Junction and Alki Beach.
I do not think moving the 50 to 20-minute frequency will address those crushloads adequately. Adding that little extra distance on the 128 will.
I thank you for commenting here, and look forward to a constructive conversation.
Brent, I think your characterization of the 50 route as a “ridership flop” and the Alki tail as only busy as a tourist trip is inaccurate. 2013 peak and daytime ridership on this route is solidly between the top and bottom 25% thresholds. Only night ridership on the 50 is slightly below the 25% threshold, hardly surprising when evening service is only hourly. An hour of night service to Alki was lost in September 2012 and another hour is proposed to be cut in June. Getting back to Alki from any nighttime event outside the peninsula requires a two-mile walk (or ride if you have access to a car or a bike and can “hide and ride” or car to go) from the nearest Rapid Ride stop. If you have more recent or detailed ridership data to share supporting your claim that the 50 is a ridership flop, please do so.
The removal of the VA loop is a construction reroute as far as I know and not a permanent change to the route which you seem to feel would be a good thing because you do not like the fact that it slows down your ride. I used that stop weekly and saw others using it and now see them inconvenienced by the reroute and do not think it would be a good thing to make it permanent. The solution to this problem is to improve the traffic flow at the VA hospital, not to throw your fellow passengers served by this stop “under the bus” so to speak.
I would much rather have a two-seat ride for the short trips around West Seattle and to the South Seattle College (they have officially dropped the “Community” now) and preserve the one-seat ride to the SODO Link station (even more so when the link extends to UW), and to the SODO busway which gives me transfers south to Kent, Renton, and Tacoma. Try both methods of getting to South Center from Alki (14 miles by car): The 128 (one hour and 40 minutes – less about 10 minutes if it were a one-seat ride) or the 50/150 (55 minutes). Which bus trip would make people more likely to leave their car at home?
The solution to this problem is to improve the traffic flow at the VA hospital, not to throw your fellow passengers served by this stop “under the bus” so to speak.
The VA hospital is a federal government facility. The federal government has never shown the slightest interest in working with local transit agencies, here or anywhere else. “Improving the traffic flow” inside the loop is a pipe dream.
And, even if you could, it’s going to take at least three minutes simply to travel the distance at a driveway-appropriate speed. The loop is too slow for the benefits it offers. The passengers it serves can also be served by the 36 (from which there is a flat, off-street path to the hospital’s east entrance) or by the Beacon Hill shuttle service. The great bulk of 50 riders are better off without the loop.
“The 50 isn’t bad from talking to Metro about it in the past. It’s ridership is incrementally growing they said and is actually profitable.”
Something tells me something was lost in the translation. There is no way fares on the 50 come close to covering the operating cost of the 50. Making a profit happens on only one or two regulary-crushloaded, short, innner city routes.
Maybe Metro meant it is cheaper to operate than the routes it replaced.
The 50 gets much more beach traffic–both Alki & Seward Park–in the summer than in the winter, but it gets plenty of school kids during the other seasons. On the Seward Park end, more people (although not hordes of people) are taking advantage of the connection to Othello Station instead of riding it to Columbia City Station to transfer to LINK. Transferring is much easier and more convenient at Othello when compared to Columbia City.
At some point, we need to ask how much responsibility the VA has for making their facility ADA accessible and how much responsibility Metro has to serve the front door of the hospital. If the VA is making a substantial remodel of their facility, shouldn’t improving access for transit-dependent patients be part of the remodel? What obligation does Metro have to provide front door service to the VA? Shouldn’t the VA be stepping up and improving their facility to improve access for disabled patients?
The VA knot can be a schedule killer, particularly in the mornings. At the very minimum, the VA should guarantee that Metro can get in and get out without long schedule delays. Ideally there needs to be a better way to get VA patients to their appointments.
@ K H — I’ve watched an articulated bus turn east from California on Edmunds which is very tight; more so than the eastbound Admiral Way turn on to California southbound. Metro articulated vehicles can work there and serve the southbound bus stop on California at Admiral Way.
Last week riding the 50 between Alaska Junction and Alki, the northbound trip around 11:00 was nearly empty. Return trip around 1:00 was crushed as high school students boarded to standing room only. Yes, my trip purpose was to enjoy lunch at the beach. I will repeat the trip, perhaps monthly just for the fun.
Riders on the 50 and 60 have an additional option to get to the front door of the VA without climbing a hill: Transfer to the 36, which comes very frequently.
In an ideal world, as I’ve proposed before, I’d have multiple routes running crosstown between South Seattle and West Seattle, all frequently enough for good transfers:
– Alki – Admiral – Sodo – S Beacon Hil – Columbia City – Seward Park
– Admiral – Alaska Junction – High Point – Highland Park – Georgetown – Othello – Seward Park
– Admiral – Alaska Junction – Gatewood – Westwood – White Center – South Park – Rainier Beach
– Arbor Heights – Westwood – White Center – N Tukwila – Rainier Beach
In today’s world, I’d, in essence, increase the frequency on the 50 and straighten the 60.
+1 David Lawson
I agree that Alki and Admiral should have more direct all-day service to SODO, but what about all the rest of the West Seattleites trying to get to Alki Beach? Should they all have to transfer at Admiral and California just to keep the 128 out of Alki? The demand for that path has been clearly demonstrated. It wouldn’t take that many more service hours to get the 128 all the way to Alki, and the riders on the 128 won’t ruin the neighborhood.
If you look at the plan I linked, it has a separate route (53) that connects Alki and the Junction directly (and also replaces other parts, but not all, of the 128).
I don’t think the 128 as is is a good route — it’s slow, unreliable (especially northbound), and doesn’t serve some key destinations. Both of my proposals radically restructure it.
The 128 was restructured to serve North Admiral in September 2012 to compensate for cuts to route 55 after riders protested losing off peak and weekend service. This is another dense West Seattle neighborhood. They would have some off peak service from the Water Taxi Shuttle (if not too crowded with Water Taxi riders) from April to October, but during winter they would not have weekend or off peak service if that tail were moved to Alki instead. These routes are working well as they were restructured in 2012. What you call route duplication I call increased frequency for those on the heavier travelled (1.4 miles of California Ave SW from Alaska to Admiral Way) segment of the 50 and the 128.
There is a Dutch company that builds amphibious buses, but unfortunately they are really best suited to tourist traffic, rather than something running in transit service. The floor is much too high for regular transit service: http://www.amfibus.com/
To really work well in Seattle as bus + water taxi replacement, it would need a boat ramp somewhere in downtown Seattle as well. Otherwise, there is still the slog down to the water taxi pier, which really isn’t a complete solution. It would at least be a water taxi + bus connection on the other end solution, I suppose.
One of the unsung benefits for the 106/169 restructure proposed by Aleks is the beautiful but underutilized bike trail that runs right by Rainier Beach Station. You don’t have to take the train. You can jump on the trail and bike most of the way into town. I’m sensing a lot of satisfaction with that proposal. I think Metro could easily implement the Renton portion of Aleks’ proposal with no harm and positive spin-off effects for the rest of the South King County network.
This isn’t totally obvious from most maps, but the Chief Sealth Trail, which was built in a power line corridor rather than a rail or road corridor that would have already been nicely graded, is very curvy and hilly on a block-to-block scale (I’ve run the entire length of it, which was pretty tough). That’s why it’s not really emphasized as a major trail in the draft BMP even though its signage and intersection treatments are nice, and one of the reasons the draft BMP proposes a major bike facility on MLK.
On the larger scale of the route, even if you use local streets to bypass some of the local hilliness, the big-picture elevation profile includes climbing Beacon Hill. Unless you’re going to Beacon Hill there’s probably a better way to go.
Do you have any idea why park designers choose to build these mostly-unused twisty bike paths that almost nobody uses?
For that matter, how much would it cost to reboot the bike path along the Chief Sealth Trail and make it straight?
Is it curvy by necessity? I mean it’s steep and biking straight up a steep hill is harder than winding up switchbacks. I biked it once and it’s tough as it is for a casual cyclist like me.
@Brent: A trail like this isn’t built for the sake of the bike network, it’s built to take advantage of a whole bunch of underutilized public land. That land happens to lie in a linear corridor so they put a trail on it. The choice isn’t, “Build a useful bike facility or build this,” it’s more like, “Build this or don’t.” Even though a trail in this corridor will never have much of a transportation impact (the areas directly surrounding the transmission lines are, predictably, not major neighborhood centers) I think that building a trail, and having good signage and intersections, is a reasonable thing to do. It wouldn’t be reasonable to expect to not have to do anything else, but that really isn’t the case.
Some sections of the trail really are useful, connecting up parts of the street network that had previously been broken, and the park space (including the trail) is used by people living nearby for recreational purposes. Last time I was on it there were kids playing in some of the parks and lots of older people going for walks in others. In this town just about any trail can have recreational value, even something as crazy as the Tolt Pipeline Trail.
I think at least a fair number of the curves are necessary to keep grade reasonable while avoiding electrical equipment and intersecting streets at reasonable angles. Similar issues with intersections and other equipment and infrastructure abound even on flatter, more useful trails like the Interurban trails (both south and north, both of which have additional issues with corridor completeness). This isn’t a problem specific to Seattle — where I’m from (west ‘burbs of Chicago) the Prairie Path and Great Western Trail have needed big fancy projects to fix up awkward sections, and they’re rail trails in a fairly flat area. Building bike paths around all this other stuff isn’t easy.
I did the monthly Kubota Gardens Feet First tour last year, and several of us walked to the station afterward. The path is partly on road and partly on trail and is not very well marked. It took ten or twenty minutes; I don’t remember exactly, and goes up and down hills but not heavily. I wouldn’t call it beautiful but it is outdoors. And the garden is worth seeing.
I’m badly out of shape and the rather nice bike I had from REI was great but I couldn’t get very far on it. An electric assist bike will, I think, help me keep up my motivation to ride without wheezing like an asthmatic smoker. This one seems to be light enough to go on a bus rack especially once the battery is removed and I can afford it. Does Metro have quibbles with electric bikes as long as there isn’t a battery pack to potentially send it flying off the front?
I know that this is Seattle _Transit_ Blog, not Seattle _Bike_ Blog, but the communities overlap…
I don’t know a huge amount about electric bikes, but I think they are treated just like regular bikes. I know you can ride them on bike trails, for example. I’m not sure about that model, but one thing to keep in mind is that they can’t necessarily go up every hill. For example, heading west up 125th from Lake City Way would require a lot of hard peddling. On the other hand, hills that are a long, slow grind, like 8th NW, become easy. For hills that are in between, it probably depends on the bike. For example on 15th NE, you might be able to cruise north from the U-District, but have trouble going back (climbing Maple Leaf). Personally, I would check out a bunch of reviews and match the bike with your expected use. If you are cruising on the Burke Gilman, then climbing power doesn’t matter (and other factors, like weight and battery life do). But if you are climbing hills, then either base your decision on the reviews or maybe test ride a few models (I know there is at least one shop in Seattle that sells them).
I think electric bikes and biking in general are going to get a big boost here, in the coming years. The city is adding a bunch of bike infrastructure, and Link will connect really well to existing bike paths. For example, getting to Fremont to Capitol Hill is about to get a lot easier. Just ride the Burke to Husky Stadium, then ride the train one stop. It will soon become the fastest way to make that ride. By fastest I don’t mean “fastest public transit method”, I mean faster than driving.
or just stay on the bike.
Every time someone does a sanctioned bus -bike race to downtown, the bike wins handily.
It all depends on where the route is. I’ll race you from Northgate to downtown. I’ll ride over to the transit center and take the bus. You can stay on your bike and see who wins.
For a Fremont to Capitol Hill race, it will be a lot closer. From Fremont, you will have to keep going to the station, which adds a bit of distance. There is also a light (or two, I forget). But I don’t think going up the north side of the hill is that easy, either. The bridge could go up (although not at rush hour) and I assume there are a few lights. The main advantage is that there are no hills. Biking can be extremely fast (there is a reason there are bike messengers) but most people aren’t in that kind of shape. I’m sure there are riders that could make that race competitive, and maybe even win it most of the time, but for most people, taking the train would be a win. The train makes no stops from Husky Stadium to Capitol Hill. All it takes is one red light for the biker and the train is faster.
A better example of a great bike/train combination is Children’s to Capitol Hill. Even the fastest biker would have trouble keeping up with that combination. I think the same thing is true if you keep going to downtown.
It’s possible to crush the climbs to capitol hill if you aren’t concerned about endurance. Day to day commuters like me will just spin up it, but you can see the athletes power up it like there isn’t a grade at all.
Maybe Yamaha should start marketing their electric bikes here, with which your average housewife can conquer hills with 30% grade: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjmewBy1Gxs
“It all depends on where the route is. I’ll race you from Northgate to downtown. I’ll ride over to the transit center and take the bus. You can stay on your bike and see who wins.”
The answer to that all depends on how prompt the 41 is, how much traffic it encounters on I-5, and whether the express lanes are running the correct direction. Plus, the possibility that the bus will wind up leaving you behind because the racks are full. I used to live near Northgate, about a 5 minute bike ride from the transit center. It was about 40 minutes on the bike all the way to get downtown. The combo approach can be faster if everything works out right, but this is by no means guaranteed.
Where bike->bus combos work best is with Sound Transit express buses, where the long distance make the freeway faster enough to be worth the switch.
(Childrens to Capitol Hill will be a great bike->Train combination in a couple years, but for now, simply staying on the bike is probably faster for a reasonably fit person than going bike->bus on the 49).
I think maybe it would be worth considering the rules we have here in Oregon: http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/DMV/pages/vehicle/pocketbike_factsheet.aspx
Electric Assisted Bicycle
According to ORS 801.258, an electric assisted bicycle:
Is designed to be operated on the ground on wheels;
Has a seat or saddle for use of the rider;
Is designed to travel with not more than three wheels in contact with the ground;
Has both fully operative pedals for human propulsion and an electric motor; and
Is equipped with an electric motor that has a power output of not more than 1,000 watts and is incapable of propelling the vehicle at a speed of greater than 20 miles per hour on level ground.
This last item prevents someone from claiming that an electric motor scooter (such as those made by Vectrix or a few other manufacturers) is a bicycle, but allows something that is closer to the size, speed and dimensions of a normal bicycle to be used the same as one even if it has an electric motor assist feature.
You can’t just turn the motor off and pedal it? Banning them sounds harsh. Or are these electric bikes more than just those little generator things for hills?
Thanks Glenn — that is completely different than what I thought the rule was. Basically, because electric bikes have limiters, I had heard that they were allowed on all bike trails. I have seen plenty of electric bikes on the Burke, so maybe this is a change (or folks just ignore the rules). I think it would be worth seeing what folks on the bike blogs say. By the way, the official designation of Burke Gilman as a “recreational trail” is ridiculous. It the only safe and reasonably fast way for folks to get from one part of town to the other with a bike. There are a lot of people (myself included) who would not ride a bike from the UW to Fremont if it involved riding on the streets.
You can turn off the motor. All of the ones I’ve seen are “electric assist”, and you have to pedal to have the motor turn on. The limiter and the “electric assist” aspect of the bikes make them a bit annoying. If you are on flat ground, you can’t just let them cruise (in effect turning them into an electric scooter) nor can you go really fast (unless you are pedaling on your own power). But both of those features make them safer, and more appropriate for bike paths.
Isn’t there a Federal law that would preempt restrictions of electric assist bicycles?
Regarding the main post: I think the Bay Area is better suited for this type of hiking. I am a bit of a hiking snob, though. To me, both Washington and California have outstanding, ‘A’ grade hiking destinations. For Washington, these are in the Cascades and Olympics. For California, the Sierras. The great thing about Seattle is that you can access great Cascade and Olympic hikes with a relatively short drive (around an hour). From the Bar Area it takes a lot longer to get to the really good stuff.
Both cities have really nice foothill and beach hiking, but in my opinion, the ‘B’ grade hiking in the Bay Area is just nicer than our ‘B’ grade hiking. The Issaquah Alps are nice, but they aren’t quite in the mountains, nor do they connect very well with beaches. They are probably our best public transit hiking option, though; they are mentioned by Spring and Manning (“Wilderness is on the Metro 210”). There are a bunch of nice parks by the beach (Discovery Park would be my favorite) but they are fairly isolated. It can make for some fun urban/wilderness hiking, but nothing like what the Bay Area has.
In an ideal world we would be like Europe, and there would be trains or buses that could take you up to the mountains. A bus that went every half hour to Snoqualmie Pass/Alpental would make a lot of sense. There are a lot of people who hike up there, and I think it would eventually prove to be very popular, especially for weekday hikers, who have to now battle traffic to go hiking.
The Issaquah Alps are nice, but they aren’t quite in the mountains, nor do they connect very well with beaches. They are probably our best public transit hiking option, though;
This depends entirely on what you mean by “our”. One of the great things about Washington is that it is possible to get to some pretty nice places on transit – just not within the Seattle city limits.
Options where it is possible to visit by public transit include the entire highway loop of the Olympic Peninsula, as well as Deception Pass State Park. True, you can’t get deep into Olympic National Park or at all into Mount Rainier National Park that way, but there is at least some access to some pretty nice areas. I have yet to drive in the San Juan Islands, but thanks to the very limited summer bus service I still managed to get to places like English Camp, American Camp, and Moran State Park.
It is possible to use the 208 to hike Si as a Saturday day trip and I have done it several times. The trick is to take the Snoqualmie Valley Trail from North Bend to the trailhead, then ascend using the Old Trail, starting from the Little Si trailhead. This way keeps road walking to a minimum, and the total round trip distance down to about 10-11 miles (about 5 hours of hiking), bus stop to viewpoint, back to bus stop again.
It is also possible to use the 208 or 215 with a bike on board as a springboard to connect to the John Wayne Trail, which can take you deep into the Cascades. Rattlesnake Ledge is easily doable as a day trip via bus/bike. One of my goals this summer is to do mailbox this say way for the first time.
asdf, what are your thoughts on taking the Snoqualmie Valley Trail from North Bend to Redmond? (I’d prefer Duvall but there seems to be no transit to Duvall on weekends.) I imagine it would take six hours or something. Are there steep hills on the trail? Or any unsafe roads west of it? I’m not sure if 202 is safe for walking just east of Redmond. I’m thinking about taking the trail up north to 124th, and west on Novelty Hill Road and Avondale Road. I would take the Tolt Pipeline Trail but my map says it doesn’t go through west of the Snoquamie Valley Trail.
That would be a really long walk. The Snoqualmie Valley Trail is on a railroad grade and very flat, but it doesn’t have any useful trail connections at the northeast end. You could take NE 124th to cross the river, but I wouldn’t walk up Novelty Hill Road unless I had a death wish. However, if you go a little further south on West Snoqulmie Valley Road, there is a power line headed up the hill that might be a useful way up. That would get you close to Redmond Ridge and a large network of roads and trails. From there, you could use the PSE Power Line Trail to hook up with Farrell-McWhirter Park and further on, the Sammamish River Trail to get you back to downtown Redmond.
This could work a lot better if you could manage to do it on a weekday. You could use the 209 to access the trail; a good place for that is the stop at 356th Dr SE. That would cut off the long slog from North Bend and some on-road walking in Snoqualmie. You would also miss the crossing of Tokul Creek, but there’s plenty of interesting scenery up the trail in the other direction.
If you got tired of walking, you could bail out in Carnation and use the Snoqualmie Valley Shuttle to get to the 209 in Fall City or to the 224 in Duvall. If you continued walking from there, you could catch the 224 in Duvall or in Redmond Ridge.
Talking about which, have any of you ever ridden the Snoqualmie Valley Shuttle? What was it like?
I’ve been meaning to try out the Snoqualmie Valley Shuttle, but I haven’t tried it out yet.
I had also forgotten about the 209 restructure. These days, to get to the 355th Dr. SE stop at a useful hour, you would need to take the 208 to Snoqualmie and the SVS to that stop.
So if you can’t go on a weekday or you don’t want to depend on a peak-only route, it looks like your best bet would be to get off at Snoqualmie Pkwy & Railroad Ave (conveniently near the Falls), and then either Tokul Rd SE to the trail (longest) or Fish Hatchery Rd (shortest) or Fall City-Snoqualmie Rd (medium) to 356th and the trail.
I’ll start with a weekday bus tour, and then figure out which parts to walk later. The bus tour itself would take some three hours between transit centers given the infrequent service, and I may want to stopover in some towns along the way. Maybe incorporating a shorter walk from Carnation to Duvall.
The SVT shuttle is every 90 minutes, so you can’t just take it for one or two segments without planning a long stopover.
Note that what Metro calls the SVT is actually the SVT Valley Shuttle. There’s a separate SVN Loop route that runs hourly between North Bend and Snoqualmie.
SVT Loop. (a href=”http://www.svtbus.org/loop.html”>description)
it looks like your best bet would be to get off at Snoqualmie Pkwy & Railroad Ave (conveniently near the Falls), and then either Tokul Rd SE to the trail (longest) or Fish Hatchery Rd (shortest) or Fall City-Snoqualmie Rd (medium) to 356th and the trail.
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The trail is about as far down Tokul Road from Railroad Ave. as it is downup 356th Drive from SR-202. In fact, Tokul Rd. is the trail at that point. This is the on-road portion that I mentioned.
I meant the total distance to a northern destination. The trail from Tokul Road makes a large “U” bend, and 202 makes a smaller “U” bend. The Fish Hatchery Road is more direct.
Google Maps also shows a clearcut power-line path from 202 to the middle of Fish Hatchery Road that bypasses another bend. I don’t know if it’s walkable or no tresspassing though. I don’t fully trust unnamed clearcuts in Google Maps, not went I went on the Soos Creek Trail and arrived at 192nd and thought it would go through Boulevard Park to Petrovitsky, but instead the path ended impassably and had a no trespassing sign.
(I’m also wondering the same thing about Stuck River Drive before the east end of the White River Trail. Google Streetview shows an unreadable sign at Feature Farm, and I can’t tell if it’s just a car sign or what. On the other hand, the trail runs into the road east of it, so they must expect people coming from the trail there.)
Walking, North Bend to Redmond is way to far for a day trip. You could camp overnight at Tolt MacDonald Park in Carnation, but I think it’s still too far from there to any useful bus stop. Even with a bike, North Bend to Redmond would be several hours, one way. A great ride, though.
In the other direction, though, one could easily walk one direction from North Bend to Rattlesnake Ledge if you’re willing hitchhike back. Or you can bring a bike with you and do the round trip yourself.
I have an idea for a post someone should do. Profile 10 or so different regional public figures, then write a post on how each one commutes to work. Who would be profiled, I’ll let you decide, but I would include people like the King Co Exec, The head of ST, The Chair of the Port, Amazon CEO, Kemper Freeman. But make it your own.
Another thing I want someone to look into and write a post on … Next to the Eastgate P&R, I saw a charter bus that said Snoqualimie Casinso on the side, picking up a group of about 30 people all waiting on the sidewalk to board. Presumably these were all casino employees being taking to work. I’m curious if this is a free service the employer provides? Or is there a nominal fee? And how many other business hire buses to bring employees to work? We all know Microsoft does, but what about smaller companies? Who’s out there doing this? Why are our own school throwing a bus pass in children’s faces and telling them to go ride a public bus with strange adults to get home, but private businesses are providing safe transportation to and from work?
I doubt that the Snoqualmie Casino bus is hauling employees. This bus also stops in the International District near ID Station.
I just Binged it. You are right. It leaves every day from Bellevue at 9:55 AM to bring customers, not employees, to the casino. I just assumed since I saw it picking up a crowd of people in the morning, it was employees going to work. What’s interesting is the website also says there are 19 other locations around the county that Snoqualmie Casino Express buses picks up people at. People pay $10 to get on the bus, but when they get to the casino, they get $10 back, plus another $10 food voucher. What a smart business move!
I just Binged™ “sam renowned transportation expert bellevue”, and I got a Yelp listing for a PRO Sports Club.
[Presented without comment.]
d.p., the same result shows up when I Googled it. So, does that mean that Sam trolls Yelp too?
I suppose that same hit is there, way down at the bottom of the page. Not a top-two highlight, as Bing™’s interpretation of inquisitive intent rendered as ranked worldly relevance might have it.
Sam enjoys filling our eyeballs with protestations of his wide-ranging wisdom, followed by invitations to pursue his strawmen across the internet and report back to him. And yet he repeatedly makes a point of Binging™ — as a verb — his wild geese, as no human being in possession of an ounce of sense or genuine curiosity would ever do.
His comments should be programmed cut off immediately following his use of the word.
d.p. and aw, can you tell me if your problem is with Sam or with Bing? You seem so earnest to slam on this guy that you’ll grab at any reason to do so.
Microsoft has every right to compete in the search engine space. Lay off it.
I have no problem with Bing. I use it myself.
It’s for gamblers. Folks pay $10 and get a $10 gambling credit and a $10 food credit. A lot of casinos around the country do this.
The casino bus largely about allowing people to drink more freely while at the casino, knowing that they won’t have to drive home. Since drunk people are more likely to throw away large amounts of money gambling, the bus service easily pays for itself. And if the person, after busing home drunk, has to bus back to the casino the next day to pick up their car, and winds up gambling some more while they’re there, all the better.
During the day there isn’t much drinking. Rather it’s designed for senior citizens to relieve them of some of their extra funds and give them to the local Indian tribe. I’ve taken varying versions of these in different cities and they are generally immigrant, mostly male (although there are occasional gaggles of middle aged and older women), and generally on the older side. The players are generally video poker if they are bright, slots if they aren’t – I rarely see any table game players on these. For the ones that don’t gamble, they can hang out at the coffee shop nursing a meal for a few hours and no one will mind since weekday afternoons are not exactly busy.
Sam, I recall you saying you walk to work. As an international-award-winning completer of the NYT crossword puzzle in six languages, you are certainly a public figure.
Could you tell the audience a little about your walk to work?
I could, but I don’t want to shame you.
Executive Constantine, County Councilmember Joe McDermott, and City Councilmember Tom Rasmussen had a race involving their preferred commute modes.
It is no wonder Constantine and McDermott are better at responding to email.
And the winner is?
SuperTom – Faster than a speeding bus, More powerful than a Watertaxi
FYI, not every Microsoft employee rides Connector. If someone works a schedule that isn’t 9a-6p M-F, as one of several limitations, the Connector is right out. Most of my FTE brethren take the Sound Transit version of the Connector, the 545. Microsoft Commute has said that they try to only provide Connector service where it doesn’t overlap with public transit (primarily for one-seat rides, I imagine), though I’m sure that Cap Hill is an exception.
I also believe contract workers can’t ride Connector.
The Connector schedules vary heavily between routes. The least popular routes (especially in the Eastside) have only a single AM trip in and a single PM trip out. The most popular routes (Capitol Hill, Belltown/Queen Anne) have as many as nine trips in each direction. I believe there are some trips that leave Seattle as early as 6:45 AM and as late as 9:45 AM, and that leave Redmond as early as 4 PM and as late as 7 PM. So the schedule constraint isn’t as tight as you might think, at least for the popular routes.
You’re right that the Connector doesn’t help people who work weekends or late nights, and Sam is right that the Connector doesn’t help temps or contractors. It’s FTEs and interns only.
Microsoft goes to great lengths to ensure that the Connector doesn’t overlap with any preexisting Metro/ST one-seat rides. That’s why there’s no Connector to downtown or the U-District. It’s also why, until recently, the Connector didn’t stop at Bellevue & Pine, despite passing through there on its way back to Redmond. The stop used to be at Broadway and Howell, and it was a two-way stop, which made it qualitatively different than the one-way 545 deviation. Microsoft temporarily moved that stop to Bellevue & Pine due to First Hill Streetcar construction, but I believe the plan is to move it back once construction is complete.
I’d also take a Metro bus over one of the short Connector ones based solely on comfort. The one time I rode a Connector to Ballard (one-off trip and I’ve never been on one of the big Connectors) featured a very bumpy, almost-nauseous ride in the 24-person “oversized van.” Oh, and Metro drivers aren’t allowed to have the radio blaring obnoxious programming (they leave that to the passengers). The e-mail response from “commute” to that feedback form was amusing.
The buses you refer to definitely aren’t the most comfortable. However, you’re guaranteed a seat, and you’re also guaranteed a one-seat ride. (A lot of people just sleep, which you can’t really do if you have to switch buses halfway through your trip.) Many of the Connector routes exit the freeway somewhere other than I-5/Denny, which means that you potentially save a lot of time by not backtracking to downtown (and not getting stuck in that traffic).
The busiest routes — Capitol Hill and Belltown, and maybe some others — use slightly larger buses. They’re not the coach buses used by the Eastside routes, but they’re much more comfortable than the converted vans.
Even though the Connector does now stop at Bellevue and Pine, the 545 is usually faster from that location, as it gets straight on the freeway, rather than doing two more stops in Capitol Hill. After Montlake, the Connector and the 545 are pretty much exactly the same.
I usually choose the 542/545 over the Connector, primarily due to the convenience offered by increased frequency. With the 542 and 545 combined at Montlake, I can show up at the bus stop without even paying attention to what time is and rarely have to wait more than 5-10 minutes for a bus. It should also be noted that while the 545 is often standing room, the 542 almost always has available seats.
Probably the same buses that are taking folks up to the casino to gamble, for a fare of $10. In the ID they stop across the street from where the BOLT buses stop, catering to what appears a much different crowd.
OK. My question of the week is a follow-up to last weeks question.
Last week, I learned that the 6000-series RapidRide coaches are apparently hush-equipped, as they have the yellow strobe light on their back ends like the 2600- and 6800-series artic hybrids. If that is true then:
1. Does Metro plan to put a RapidRide line in the DSTT sometime between now and 2019?
2. If not, then what was the point of Hush-equipping the RR coaches?
1) No.
2) Its as simple a computer programming, so why not? Prepare for all contingencies.
What do people think of this? A bus that would follow the routes of future link light rail lines & stops. Has this been proposed before?
What prompted this thought is why can’t I catch a bus at Mountlake Terrace Transit Center and a few stops later be at Northgate Transit Center? In 2023ish, I’ll be able to, but I need to get home sooner than that… :)
The lack of any reasonably fast Snohomish County connection from Northgate, 85th, or 125th has been a repeated problem for me. I’ve had two jobs now with coworkers from Lynnwood, Everett, and Edmonds, and I’d like to recommend transit to them (to Northgate or Sand Point) but it would take more than an hour each way.
I suspect the only reason the 512 doesn’t stop at Northgate Way is there’s no freeway station there.
There seems to be a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem. ST’s initial network included a peak-only route (505/506) between Northgate and Everett with freeway stops, but it suffered *extremely* poor ridership and was canned in short order.
Getting from Northgate to points north is a real problem; the only real option is to take the 346 or 347, which are slower than molasses, and connect to CT or ST at their northern terminals.
The problem is travel time. Link will be able to stop at Northgate on the way between Lynnwood and downtown with almost no time penalty. A bus would have to exit the the freeway and wait at several stoplights to pull into the transit center. I believe the only thru-bus that does is is the peak-only 303.
Back when I used to live around Northgate, I used to work around the missing connection by jogging just over 2 miles to the 145th St. Freeway Station and catching the 510 or 511 there. Since then, I’ve moved, so it’s not an issue anymore.
I would like to see a weekly STB post boosting King County Prop 1. That proposition is so important, especially since we’ve now had not one but two legislative seasons end without a transportation package.
My blame, for what it is worth, is bipartisan. I’ll stop there since last time I went too far to some more, er, progressive readers.
My point is this: If you’re going to save transit, you are simply going to have to dig in and fight. Keep pummeling with facts the other side and repetition, repetition, repetition. Don’t let the lame mainstream media sound byte this referendum. Don’t let the lazy talking heads screw this one up. This will be a low turnout election because most are too lazy to vote every time a ballot is mailed to them. We can only counter that with passionate, sustainable intensity.
There.
I agree with you that this campaign needs reminders, and facts, and continually getting out the message that this tax increase–while annoying and regressive–is necessary. If the side message gets out that it’s annoying and regressive and necessary because of the rest of the state’s “We Hate Seattle” vibe, even better. Persecuting and holding hostage the portion of the state that generates the most economic activity is no way to go through life, east of the Cascades.
On your other point, you’re probably referring to me, at least a little. I object to the use of name calling when discussing politics. It does nothing but reduce the important discourse to the level of schoolyard bullying. (Oh, and to the oft-discussed “lame mainstream media” meme, if a particular radio or streaming Internet program receives tens of millions of listeners or viewers, it is just as much a part of regular media as the other political pundits.)
Thanks lakecityrider. I love Seattle very much. Many working winter vacations and joyful summer vacations have been taken in the world’s best city – and not just visits to the Museum of Flight but also I’ve made overnight trips of visits to two Coalition for Open Government Conferences in 2010 & 2012. I can gush about Seattle some more, but that’s beyond the point.
That said, I believe very strongly in labels and campaigning stridently. But that’s my style – define the opposition and attack hard. My shot at the lame mainstream media is just as much at KVI & KTTH as KIRO & the Seattle Times – or any media outlet that is large in subscription/listenership/viewership but short in facts. Heck, until I feel I can have an adult conversation w/ a KVI or KTTH host… I’m not listening to their blather.
Re: “This will be a low turnout election because most are too lazy to vote every time a ballot is mailed to them.”
I agree; and it’s too bad because it means those who don’t vote are having their decisions made by those who do. So it’s up to supporters of transit far and wide to get the word out. And those who turn 18 by the date of the election should know they have the right to register to vote, but the date to do so is quickly approaching: http://kingcounty.gov/elections/register/requirements.aspx http://kingcounty.gov/elections/register/deadlines.aspx
Seriously, last week Seattle looked like the Super Bowl was yesterday, but nothing anywhere that there’s an election next month. For another example of what complacency does, try looking up “1994 NBA Playoffs Seattle Denver Game 5.” Yes it was 20 years ago but it applies today. The details are most definitely off-topic for this site.
Great thoughts Jason :-).
STB folks need to wake up, wolf down some Folger’s coffee and kick some a**. This election’s going to come down to who wants to win!!! Already we’re seeing the King County Republicans and the Washington Policy Center ( http://washingtonpolicy.org/research/transportation/new ) put out spin.
Us? Crickets.
Nice concept, but visuals get people’s attention faster. (OK, so I majored in engineering rather than marketing but it sounds correct.)
How about something along the lines of simple question, divided into to images?
Has anyone gotten ballots in the mail yet? Do you know when they’re sending them?
Sorry if this has already been mentioned:
Walk & Talk Bellevue: Shape Your Future
March 20 @ 5:30 pm – 7:30 pm
Join the Bellevue Walk & Talk event on Thursday, March 20, 2014 from 5:30pm to 7:30pm and connect with city, business, and community leaders.
During this free interactive event, you’ll learn about the common interests of stakeholders and how they are working together to make this neighborhood of Bellevue safe, accessible, and an inviting place for people to walk.
With major infrastructure projects and the new Sound Transit Hospital Link light rail station, Bellevue anticipates big changes in the coming years. The Bellevue Walk & Talk stops at eight designated locations to showcase efforts and identify plans to create a livable, healthy, and walkable places
The unique event, hosted by Feet First, encourages open dialogue and creates opportunities for community engagement.
Featuring Keynote Speakers:
Lynne Robinson, Bellevue City Councilmember
Bill Biggs, Vice President Group Health & Carol Taylor, Director of Clinical Operations, Group Health
During our walk, we’ll joined by representatives from Sound Transit, Eastside Rail Corridor, Eastside Heritage Center, Whole Foods, and the City of Bellevue. Following the walk, join us for a reception sponsored by Group Health.
What do you guys think would be the best way or justification for east-west transit service between West Seattle and SE Seattle?
What about for some sort of circulator?
West Seattle had circulators. They were ridership flops.
West Seattle now has two cross-town routes, the 50 and the 60. The 50 is a ridership flop, outside of the popular stretch from Alaska Junction to Alki Beach, which is often crush-loaded, and should be shifted to the 128 for better frequency and more capacity. I don’t see any better paths than what these two routes take for getting cross-town between southeast and West Seattle. There might be a better path for the 50 within West Seattle and within southeast Seattle, but I have no idea what will work.
The 60 is severely impacted by the lack of the South Park Bridge, which should be open later this year. It is also impacted by a knot stop at Arrowhead Gardens, which spends about 10 minutes picking up very few riders. If there is a way to move that stop to the street, the rest of the riders not stopping there would love Metro for moving the stop to the street. At least the 10-minute knot stop at the VA is gone.
The best justification? a one-seat ride to Seward Park! Or from the vantage point of southeast Seattleites, a one-seat ride to Alki Beach, but very few are taking advantage of it. Sadly, transit has to plan around frequent trips, not occasional recreational trips. On top of that, beaches have horrible neighborhood walksheds. Nevertheless, Alki Beach is one of the most popular bus stops … for West Seattleites. Don’t tell anyone about that majestic view of Mt. Baker, magnified by the effect of Elliott Bay, or even more people will flock to the beach.
I hope you will give your unconditional endorsement to King County Prop 1. Metro has bent over backwards for West Seattle in so many ways I have lost count. If Prop 1 fails, West Seattle faces a 27% bus service cut. Did I mention that the Highway 99 mitigation funding runs out at the end of 2015, and Metro still has to find some source of funding for the extra service West Seattle is getting? And then when the viaduct closes, it will only get worse, and Metro will need to find even more money for West Seattle-to-downtown bus service.
You are right to bring up the question of whether the 50 is justified. Any new route needs at least a year to mature. If Metro tries another path for the 50, and ridership fails to materialize by late 2015, I suspect that will be the first West Seattle route to get axed. But Metro didn’t make any capital investment into the route, and the stop sign for the 50 by SODO Station is hard to find between trees, unless you look hard for it. Unless RTA signage is brought to the stops by SODO Station, Columbia City Station, and Othello Station, and the stops are made more visible, the 50 was never really given a chance. One other improvement on the 50 is that the 50 no longer goes into the VA parking lot. Those going to the VA have a short walk up a hill. But the several minutes saved might bring back ridership, and even find them headed to Alki Beach.
The 50 isn’t bad from talking to Metro about it in the past. It’s ridership is incrementally growing they said and is actually profitable.
As for Prop 1 and the 27% cuts, it’s down to just 17% cuts for us like everyone else, we helped bother WSDOT & Inslee’s office from the West Seattle Transportation Coalition to renew our promised viaduct construction mitigation money through 2015. We’re also listed on the Move King County Now site as endorsers (or will be, once they update the site). It has to pass.
“The 50 isn’t bad from talking to Metro about it in the past. It’s ridership is incrementally growing they said and is actually profitable.”
If the 50 beachgoing crowd is paying the full cost of running the 50, then cool! But that crowd needs a lot more capacity when the sun comes out. The 50 buses are 30-footers. The 128 can, and often does, run 60-footers, and runs more often. I still say extend the 128 to Alki Beach, as an outstanding route anchor. It’s Admiral District dead-end is so tantalizingly close to what would become its most popular destination. The extension should pay for itself with Alki beachgoer fares. And routes that have good anchors on both ends avoid the political problem of non-bus-riders snapping pictures of “empty buses”.
The 50 is running with 30ftrs because a 40ft coach cannot make the turn from eastbound Admiral Way to Southbound California Avenue. The first shake up of the 50 they used 40ftrs but had to turn north on 44th Ave SW and then go around the block on SW College Street to California. In order to eliminate the running around the block, they swapped the route into smaller coaches.
I’ve also heard for some crush loads when Mercer Middle School gets out on Beacon Hill.
The problem with the 50 is that it offers very little unique value over other routes. The two tails at Alki Beach and Seward Park represent the only real unique coverage along the entire route. Beacon Hill to SODO is mostly redundant with Link, and SODO->West Seattle is mostly redundant with the 21. Until recently, the VA hospital detour made the 50 provide no significant time advantage for cross-town Ranier Valley->West Seattle trips over simply going downtown on Link and taking the C-line.
Now, it’s a bit better, but still, not great.
If I were designing things, I would have moved the Alki tail of the 50 to some other route, perhaps the 128, and converted the 50 into a shuttle between Seward Park, Othello, and Columbia City stations. A truncation like this would probably allow a tripling of the 50’s frequency with existing service hours. This would mean a bus connecting with every train (timed outbound connection at Columbia City Station, of course) during the periods when the 50 currently runs every 30 minutes, and a timed connection with every other train during the period where the 50 currently runs every 60 minutes.
But, alas, the service guidelines prohibit a route from running more frequently than twice an hour unless the capacity is needed to avoid overloads. The money has to be spent somewhere, so it instead gets spent on a slow, meandering, largely redundant route to West Seattle.
asdf, the Beacon Hill portion of the 50 doesn’t overlap with Link at all. In fact, most of the riders there are transferring from Link at Sodo to ride up to the stops along Columbian Wy S and 15th Ave S. I’d guess (without having seen stop-by-stop data) that outside of peak hours there are more riders on the Beacon Hill part of the 50 than the part you’d keep.
The 50 is a good route which suffers a chicken-and-egg problem because it’s a route that relies almost entirely on transfers without having the frequency to make those transfers easy.
Can you cite your claim about half an hour service as the limit?
Alki is one of the densest neighborhoods in West Seattle. We have the Water Taxi to take visitors to Alki Beach in addition to the 30 foot Route 50 buses. If Metro replaces the 50 with the 128 to Alki, they may turn the 1 seat ride to SODO into a 3 seat ride for many Alki residents who commute there, including quite a few who now use the 50 to commute to Starbucks Headquarters. Taking away the loop to the VA hospital is not a positive if you watch, as I do, disabled folks having to get off on Columbia and go up that hill on crutches. That loop was not a serious delay on the 50 except during rush hour and that was only because of the hospital’s poor traffic pattern. Brent, do you regularly use the 50 route and base your proposals on actual experience? I do, and I don’t think your suggestions for the 50 are very constructive.
“That loop was not a serious delay on the 50 except during rush hour.”
You and I have different ideas of “serious delay.” It was at least 5 minutes at all times of day. That is a *very* long time on a bus that mostly exists to serve short trips with transfers to Link or other buses.
I ride the 50 less than I used to but am very glad the VA loop is gone, and hope it stays that way. For those few passengers who have trouble climbing the short driveway, there are multiple other solutions for VA hospital access from just about anywhere.
Also, if Metro has to go through with the cuts and does the 128/50 substitution, Sodo is not a three-seat ride, but a two-seat ride. (56 -> Link or 21 at peak hour, or 128 -> 21 at High Point the rest of the time.)
Kathy,
I’m not sure which suggestions of mine for the 50 you are not liking.
The removal of the VA loop is already done. It is not a suggestion. I’ve said all along that the loop is tolerable on the 50 and a huge slow-down, but can be avoided by anyone wanting to avoid it, simply by taking the 50 from a Link station to their destination’s side of the VA. The VA knot has been costing a lot of ridership on the 60 (which I do ride, but a lot less often since the South Park Bridge is out, and a lot less when I had to spend 10 minutes winding through the VA parking lot to pick up or drop off nobody more often than not). The VA knot may come back at some point, but please don’t bring it back on the 60. The handful of riders going to the VA are not the only riders using the 60, and the VA needs to get more serious about getting buses through their parking lot much faster if they want special front door loop-de-loop service that only about one other hospital in the county has. If the VA cares about its clients who ride the bus, it could set up intercoms by the bus stops to have their valets hop in a van and come out and get the riders. Also, based on the number of riders using that stop, vs. the marginal time it takes to serve it, Metro has deemed the stop a violation of its Service Guidelines. The difference in scheduled time on the 60 since the knot was removed is 8 minutes. That’s how long it took to serve the stop under uncongested conditions. The guidelines don’t even talk about marginal ridership that would be added by serving the stop, which ought to be relevant since most who were using the front-door stop are still making due getting to the front door from the street, or coming from the 36 side of the campus.
I’ve suggested *adding* service to Alki Beach, on the 128. What about that do you not like? If you are simply wanting more frequency on the 50, I’m with you there, if the service hours can be found. But wouldn’t you also like a 1-seat ride to other portions of West Seattle and South Seattle Community College?
I’ve suggested real-time arrival signage, and making the stops by the stations more visible and pleasant to wait at. What about that do you find not very constructive?
I was one of the early defenders of the proposed 50, back when a lot of riders on the 34X and 39 were decrying the loss of their one-seat ride downtown (or, worse, having to ride on the 7!), and defenders of the 50 proposal were few and far between. I honestly expected the 50 to get a lot more ridership than it has. I’ve ridden on it a few times, with almost empty buses everywhere but the stretch between the Junction and Alki Beach, and crushloads between the Junction and Alki Beach.
I do not think moving the 50 to 20-minute frequency will address those crushloads adequately. Adding that little extra distance on the 128 will.
I thank you for commenting here, and look forward to a constructive conversation.
Brent, I think your characterization of the 50 route as a “ridership flop” and the Alki tail as only busy as a tourist trip is inaccurate. 2013 peak and daytime ridership on this route is solidly between the top and bottom 25% thresholds. Only night ridership on the 50 is slightly below the 25% threshold, hardly surprising when evening service is only hourly. An hour of night service to Alki was lost in September 2012 and another hour is proposed to be cut in June. Getting back to Alki from any nighttime event outside the peninsula requires a two-mile walk (or ride if you have access to a car or a bike and can “hide and ride” or car to go) from the nearest Rapid Ride stop. If you have more recent or detailed ridership data to share supporting your claim that the 50 is a ridership flop, please do so.
The removal of the VA loop is a construction reroute as far as I know and not a permanent change to the route which you seem to feel would be a good thing because you do not like the fact that it slows down your ride. I used that stop weekly and saw others using it and now see them inconvenienced by the reroute and do not think it would be a good thing to make it permanent. The solution to this problem is to improve the traffic flow at the VA hospital, not to throw your fellow passengers served by this stop “under the bus” so to speak.
I would much rather have a two-seat ride for the short trips around West Seattle and to the South Seattle College (they have officially dropped the “Community” now) and preserve the one-seat ride to the SODO Link station (even more so when the link extends to UW), and to the SODO busway which gives me transfers south to Kent, Renton, and Tacoma. Try both methods of getting to South Center from Alki (14 miles by car): The 128 (one hour and 40 minutes – less about 10 minutes if it were a one-seat ride) or the 50/150 (55 minutes). Which bus trip would make people more likely to leave their car at home?
The solution to this problem is to improve the traffic flow at the VA hospital, not to throw your fellow passengers served by this stop “under the bus” so to speak.
The VA hospital is a federal government facility. The federal government has never shown the slightest interest in working with local transit agencies, here or anywhere else. “Improving the traffic flow” inside the loop is a pipe dream.
And, even if you could, it’s going to take at least three minutes simply to travel the distance at a driveway-appropriate speed. The loop is too slow for the benefits it offers. The passengers it serves can also be served by the 36 (from which there is a flat, off-street path to the hospital’s east entrance) or by the Beacon Hill shuttle service. The great bulk of 50 riders are better off without the loop.
“The 50 isn’t bad from talking to Metro about it in the past. It’s ridership is incrementally growing they said and is actually profitable.”
Something tells me something was lost in the translation. There is no way fares on the 50 come close to covering the operating cost of the 50. Making a profit happens on only one or two regulary-crushloaded, short, innner city routes.
Maybe Metro meant it is cheaper to operate than the routes it replaced.
The 50 gets much more beach traffic–both Alki & Seward Park–in the summer than in the winter, but it gets plenty of school kids during the other seasons. On the Seward Park end, more people (although not hordes of people) are taking advantage of the connection to Othello Station instead of riding it to Columbia City Station to transfer to LINK. Transferring is much easier and more convenient at Othello when compared to Columbia City.
At some point, we need to ask how much responsibility the VA has for making their facility ADA accessible and how much responsibility Metro has to serve the front door of the hospital. If the VA is making a substantial remodel of their facility, shouldn’t improving access for transit-dependent patients be part of the remodel? What obligation does Metro have to provide front door service to the VA? Shouldn’t the VA be stepping up and improving their facility to improve access for disabled patients?
The VA knot can be a schedule killer, particularly in the mornings. At the very minimum, the VA should guarantee that Metro can get in and get out without long schedule delays. Ideally there needs to be a better way to get VA patients to their appointments.
@ K H — I’ve watched an articulated bus turn east from California on Edmunds which is very tight; more so than the eastbound Admiral Way turn on to California southbound. Metro articulated vehicles can work there and serve the southbound bus stop on California at Admiral Way.
Last week riding the 50 between Alaska Junction and Alki, the northbound trip around 11:00 was nearly empty. Return trip around 1:00 was crushed as high school students boarded to standing room only. Yes, my trip purpose was to enjoy lunch at the beach. I will repeat the trip, perhaps monthly just for the fun.
Riders on the 50 and 60 have an additional option to get to the front door of the VA without climbing a hill: Transfer to the 36, which comes very frequently.
In an ideal world, as I’ve proposed before, I’d have multiple routes running crosstown between South Seattle and West Seattle, all frequently enough for good transfers:
– Alki – Admiral – Sodo – S Beacon Hil – Columbia City – Seward Park
– Admiral – Alaska Junction – High Point – Highland Park – Georgetown – Othello – Seward Park
– Admiral – Alaska Junction – Gatewood – Westwood – White Center – South Park – Rainier Beach
– Arbor Heights – Westwood – White Center – N Tukwila – Rainier Beach
In today’s world, I’d, in essence, increase the frequency on the 50 and straighten the 60.
+1 David Lawson
I agree that Alki and Admiral should have more direct all-day service to SODO, but what about all the rest of the West Seattleites trying to get to Alki Beach? Should they all have to transfer at Admiral and California just to keep the 128 out of Alki? The demand for that path has been clearly demonstrated. It wouldn’t take that many more service hours to get the 128 all the way to Alki, and the riders on the 128 won’t ruin the neighborhood.
If you look at the plan I linked, it has a separate route (53) that connects Alki and the Junction directly (and also replaces other parts, but not all, of the 128).
I don’t think the 128 as is is a good route — it’s slow, unreliable (especially northbound), and doesn’t serve some key destinations. Both of my proposals radically restructure it.
The 128 was restructured to serve North Admiral in September 2012 to compensate for cuts to route 55 after riders protested losing off peak and weekend service. This is another dense West Seattle neighborhood. They would have some off peak service from the Water Taxi Shuttle (if not too crowded with Water Taxi riders) from April to October, but during winter they would not have weekend or off peak service if that tail were moved to Alki instead. These routes are working well as they were restructured in 2012. What you call route duplication I call increased frequency for those on the heavier travelled (1.4 miles of California Ave SW from Alaska to Admiral Way) segment of the 50 and the 128.
There is a Dutch company that builds amphibious buses, but unfortunately they are really best suited to tourist traffic, rather than something running in transit service. The floor is much too high for regular transit service:
http://www.amfibus.com/
To really work well in Seattle as bus + water taxi replacement, it would need a boat ramp somewhere in downtown Seattle as well. Otherwise, there is still the slog down to the water taxi pier, which really isn’t a complete solution. It would at least be a water taxi + bus connection on the other end solution, I suppose.
One of the unsung benefits for the 106/169 restructure proposed by Aleks is the beautiful but underutilized bike trail that runs right by Rainier Beach Station. You don’t have to take the train. You can jump on the trail and bike most of the way into town. I’m sensing a lot of satisfaction with that proposal. I think Metro could easily implement the Renton portion of Aleks’ proposal with no harm and positive spin-off effects for the rest of the South King County network.
This isn’t totally obvious from most maps, but the Chief Sealth Trail, which was built in a power line corridor rather than a rail or road corridor that would have already been nicely graded, is very curvy and hilly on a block-to-block scale (I’ve run the entire length of it, which was pretty tough). That’s why it’s not really emphasized as a major trail in the draft BMP even though its signage and intersection treatments are nice, and one of the reasons the draft BMP proposes a major bike facility on MLK.
On the larger scale of the route, even if you use local streets to bypass some of the local hilliness, the big-picture elevation profile includes climbing Beacon Hill. Unless you’re going to Beacon Hill there’s probably a better way to go.
Do you have any idea why park designers choose to build these mostly-unused twisty bike paths that almost nobody uses?
For that matter, how much would it cost to reboot the bike path along the Chief Sealth Trail and make it straight?
Is it curvy by necessity? I mean it’s steep and biking straight up a steep hill is harder than winding up switchbacks. I biked it once and it’s tough as it is for a casual cyclist like me.
@Brent: A trail like this isn’t built for the sake of the bike network, it’s built to take advantage of a whole bunch of underutilized public land. That land happens to lie in a linear corridor so they put a trail on it. The choice isn’t, “Build a useful bike facility or build this,” it’s more like, “Build this or don’t.” Even though a trail in this corridor will never have much of a transportation impact (the areas directly surrounding the transmission lines are, predictably, not major neighborhood centers) I think that building a trail, and having good signage and intersections, is a reasonable thing to do. It wouldn’t be reasonable to expect to not have to do anything else, but that really isn’t the case.
Some sections of the trail really are useful, connecting up parts of the street network that had previously been broken, and the park space (including the trail) is used by people living nearby for recreational purposes. Last time I was on it there were kids playing in some of the parks and lots of older people going for walks in others. In this town just about any trail can have recreational value, even something as crazy as the Tolt Pipeline Trail.
I think at least a fair number of the curves are necessary to keep grade reasonable while avoiding electrical equipment and intersecting streets at reasonable angles. Similar issues with intersections and other equipment and infrastructure abound even on flatter, more useful trails like the Interurban trails (both south and north, both of which have additional issues with corridor completeness). This isn’t a problem specific to Seattle — where I’m from (west ‘burbs of Chicago) the Prairie Path and Great Western Trail have needed big fancy projects to fix up awkward sections, and they’re rail trails in a fairly flat area. Building bike paths around all this other stuff isn’t easy.
I did the monthly Kubota Gardens Feet First tour last year, and several of us walked to the station afterward. The path is partly on road and partly on trail and is not very well marked. It took ten or twenty minutes; I don’t remember exactly, and goes up and down hills but not heavily. I wouldn’t call it beautiful but it is outdoors. And the garden is worth seeing.
What do folks here think of this bike? http://urbanscooters.com/cgi-bin/urbanscooters/XB-300Li.html
I’m badly out of shape and the rather nice bike I had from REI was great but I couldn’t get very far on it. An electric assist bike will, I think, help me keep up my motivation to ride without wheezing like an asthmatic smoker. This one seems to be light enough to go on a bus rack especially once the battery is removed and I can afford it. Does Metro have quibbles with electric bikes as long as there isn’t a battery pack to potentially send it flying off the front?
I know that this is Seattle _Transit_ Blog, not Seattle _Bike_ Blog, but the communities overlap…
I don’t know a huge amount about electric bikes, but I think they are treated just like regular bikes. I know you can ride them on bike trails, for example. I’m not sure about that model, but one thing to keep in mind is that they can’t necessarily go up every hill. For example, heading west up 125th from Lake City Way would require a lot of hard peddling. On the other hand, hills that are a long, slow grind, like 8th NW, become easy. For hills that are in between, it probably depends on the bike. For example on 15th NE, you might be able to cruise north from the U-District, but have trouble going back (climbing Maple Leaf). Personally, I would check out a bunch of reviews and match the bike with your expected use. If you are cruising on the Burke Gilman, then climbing power doesn’t matter (and other factors, like weight and battery life do). But if you are climbing hills, then either base your decision on the reviews or maybe test ride a few models (I know there is at least one shop in Seattle that sells them).
I think electric bikes and biking in general are going to get a big boost here, in the coming years. The city is adding a bunch of bike infrastructure, and Link will connect really well to existing bike paths. For example, getting to Fremont to Capitol Hill is about to get a lot easier. Just ride the Burke to Husky Stadium, then ride the train one stop. It will soon become the fastest way to make that ride. By fastest I don’t mean “fastest public transit method”, I mean faster than driving.
or just stay on the bike.
Every time someone does a sanctioned bus -bike race to downtown, the bike wins handily.
It all depends on where the route is. I’ll race you from Northgate to downtown. I’ll ride over to the transit center and take the bus. You can stay on your bike and see who wins.
For a Fremont to Capitol Hill race, it will be a lot closer. From Fremont, you will have to keep going to the station, which adds a bit of distance. There is also a light (or two, I forget). But I don’t think going up the north side of the hill is that easy, either. The bridge could go up (although not at rush hour) and I assume there are a few lights. The main advantage is that there are no hills. Biking can be extremely fast (there is a reason there are bike messengers) but most people aren’t in that kind of shape. I’m sure there are riders that could make that race competitive, and maybe even win it most of the time, but for most people, taking the train would be a win. The train makes no stops from Husky Stadium to Capitol Hill. All it takes is one red light for the biker and the train is faster.
A better example of a great bike/train combination is Children’s to Capitol Hill. Even the fastest biker would have trouble keeping up with that combination. I think the same thing is true if you keep going to downtown.
It’s possible to crush the climbs to capitol hill if you aren’t concerned about endurance. Day to day commuters like me will just spin up it, but you can see the athletes power up it like there isn’t a grade at all.
Maybe Yamaha should start marketing their electric bikes here, with which your average housewife can conquer hills with 30% grade: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjmewBy1Gxs
“It all depends on where the route is. I’ll race you from Northgate to downtown. I’ll ride over to the transit center and take the bus. You can stay on your bike and see who wins.”
The answer to that all depends on how prompt the 41 is, how much traffic it encounters on I-5, and whether the express lanes are running the correct direction. Plus, the possibility that the bus will wind up leaving you behind because the racks are full. I used to live near Northgate, about a 5 minute bike ride from the transit center. It was about 40 minutes on the bike all the way to get downtown. The combo approach can be faster if everything works out right, but this is by no means guaranteed.
Where bike->bus combos work best is with Sound Transit express buses, where the long distance make the freeway faster enough to be worth the switch.
(Childrens to Capitol Hill will be a great bike->Train combination in a couple years, but for now, simply staying on the bike is probably faster for a reasonably fit person than going bike->bus on the 49).
According to this:
http://www.seattle.gov/council/issues/greenways/bike_laws.htm
it sounds like Seattle considers electric bikes the same as any other motorized vehicle and prohibited from the bike trails or bike lanes.
I think maybe it would be worth considering the rules we have here in Oregon:
http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/DMV/pages/vehicle/pocketbike_factsheet.aspx
Electric Assisted Bicycle
According to ORS 801.258, an electric assisted bicycle:
Is designed to be operated on the ground on wheels;
Has a seat or saddle for use of the rider;
Is designed to travel with not more than three wheels in contact with the ground;
Has both fully operative pedals for human propulsion and an electric motor; and
Is equipped with an electric motor that has a power output of not more than 1,000 watts and is incapable of propelling the vehicle at a speed of greater than 20 miles per hour on level ground.
This last item prevents someone from claiming that an electric motor scooter (such as those made by Vectrix or a few other manufacturers) is a bicycle, but allows something that is closer to the size, speed and dimensions of a normal bicycle to be used the same as one even if it has an electric motor assist feature.
You can’t just turn the motor off and pedal it? Banning them sounds harsh. Or are these electric bikes more than just those little generator things for hills?
Thanks Glenn — that is completely different than what I thought the rule was. Basically, because electric bikes have limiters, I had heard that they were allowed on all bike trails. I have seen plenty of electric bikes on the Burke, so maybe this is a change (or folks just ignore the rules). I think it would be worth seeing what folks on the bike blogs say. By the way, the official designation of Burke Gilman as a “recreational trail” is ridiculous. It the only safe and reasonably fast way for folks to get from one part of town to the other with a bike. There are a lot of people (myself included) who would not ride a bike from the UW to Fremont if it involved riding on the streets.
You can turn off the motor. All of the ones I’ve seen are “electric assist”, and you have to pedal to have the motor turn on. The limiter and the “electric assist” aspect of the bikes make them a bit annoying. If you are on flat ground, you can’t just let them cruise (in effect turning them into an electric scooter) nor can you go really fast (unless you are pedaling on your own power). But both of those features make them safer, and more appropriate for bike paths.
Isn’t there a Federal law that would preempt restrictions of electric assist bicycles?
Regarding the main post: I think the Bay Area is better suited for this type of hiking. I am a bit of a hiking snob, though. To me, both Washington and California have outstanding, ‘A’ grade hiking destinations. For Washington, these are in the Cascades and Olympics. For California, the Sierras. The great thing about Seattle is that you can access great Cascade and Olympic hikes with a relatively short drive (around an hour). From the Bar Area it takes a lot longer to get to the really good stuff.
Both cities have really nice foothill and beach hiking, but in my opinion, the ‘B’ grade hiking in the Bay Area is just nicer than our ‘B’ grade hiking. The Issaquah Alps are nice, but they aren’t quite in the mountains, nor do they connect very well with beaches. They are probably our best public transit hiking option, though; they are mentioned by Spring and Manning (“Wilderness is on the Metro 210”). There are a bunch of nice parks by the beach (Discovery Park would be my favorite) but they are fairly isolated. It can make for some fun urban/wilderness hiking, but nothing like what the Bay Area has.
In an ideal world we would be like Europe, and there would be trains or buses that could take you up to the mountains. A bus that went every half hour to Snoqualmie Pass/Alpental would make a lot of sense. There are a lot of people who hike up there, and I think it would eventually prove to be very popular, especially for weekday hikers, who have to now battle traffic to go hiking.
The Issaquah Alps are nice, but they aren’t quite in the mountains, nor do they connect very well with beaches. They are probably our best public transit hiking option, though;
This depends entirely on what you mean by “our”. One of the great things about Washington is that it is possible to get to some pretty nice places on transit – just not within the Seattle city limits.
Options where it is possible to visit by public transit include the entire highway loop of the Olympic Peninsula, as well as Deception Pass State Park. True, you can’t get deep into Olympic National Park or at all into Mount Rainier National Park that way, but there is at least some access to some pretty nice areas. I have yet to drive in the San Juan Islands, but thanks to the very limited summer bus service I still managed to get to places like English Camp, American Camp, and Moran State Park.
It is possible to use the 208 to hike Si as a Saturday day trip and I have done it several times. The trick is to take the Snoqualmie Valley Trail from North Bend to the trailhead, then ascend using the Old Trail, starting from the Little Si trailhead. This way keeps road walking to a minimum, and the total round trip distance down to about 10-11 miles (about 5 hours of hiking), bus stop to viewpoint, back to bus stop again.
It is also possible to use the 208 or 215 with a bike on board as a springboard to connect to the John Wayne Trail, which can take you deep into the Cascades. Rattlesnake Ledge is easily doable as a day trip via bus/bike. One of my goals this summer is to do mailbox this say way for the first time.
asdf, what are your thoughts on taking the Snoqualmie Valley Trail from North Bend to Redmond? (I’d prefer Duvall but there seems to be no transit to Duvall on weekends.) I imagine it would take six hours or something. Are there steep hills on the trail? Or any unsafe roads west of it? I’m not sure if 202 is safe for walking just east of Redmond. I’m thinking about taking the trail up north to 124th, and west on Novelty Hill Road and Avondale Road. I would take the Tolt Pipeline Trail but my map says it doesn’t go through west of the Snoquamie Valley Trail.
That would be a really long walk. The Snoqualmie Valley Trail is on a railroad grade and very flat, but it doesn’t have any useful trail connections at the northeast end. You could take NE 124th to cross the river, but I wouldn’t walk up Novelty Hill Road unless I had a death wish. However, if you go a little further south on West Snoqulmie Valley Road, there is a power line headed up the hill that might be a useful way up. That would get you close to Redmond Ridge and a large network of roads and trails. From there, you could use the PSE Power Line Trail to hook up with Farrell-McWhirter Park and further on, the Sammamish River Trail to get you back to downtown Redmond.
This could work a lot better if you could manage to do it on a weekday. You could use the 209 to access the trail; a good place for that is the stop at 356th Dr SE. That would cut off the long slog from North Bend and some on-road walking in Snoqualmie. You would also miss the crossing of Tokul Creek, but there’s plenty of interesting scenery up the trail in the other direction.
If you got tired of walking, you could bail out in Carnation and use the Snoqualmie Valley Shuttle to get to the 209 in Fall City or to the 224 in Duvall. If you continued walking from there, you could catch the 224 in Duvall or in Redmond Ridge.
Talking about which, have any of you ever ridden the Snoqualmie Valley Shuttle? What was it like?
I’ve been meaning to try out the Snoqualmie Valley Shuttle, but I haven’t tried it out yet.
I had also forgotten about the 209 restructure. These days, to get to the 355th Dr. SE stop at a useful hour, you would need to take the 208 to Snoqualmie and the SVS to that stop.
So if you can’t go on a weekday or you don’t want to depend on a peak-only route, it looks like your best bet would be to get off at Snoqualmie Pkwy & Railroad Ave (conveniently near the Falls), and then either Tokul Rd SE to the trail (longest) or Fish Hatchery Rd (shortest) or Fall City-Snoqualmie Rd (medium) to 356th and the trail.
I’ll start with a weekday bus tour, and then figure out which parts to walk later. The bus tour itself would take some three hours between transit centers given the infrequent service, and I may want to stopover in some towns along the way. Maybe incorporating a shorter walk from Carnation to Duvall.
The SVT shuttle is every 90 minutes, so you can’t just take it for one or two segments without planning a long stopover.
Note that what Metro calls the SVT is actually the SVT Valley Shuttle. There’s a separate SVN Loop route that runs hourly between North Bend and Snoqualmie.
SVT Loop. (a href=”http://www.svtbus.org/loop.html”>description)
.
The trail is about as far down Tokul Road from Railroad Ave. as it is
downup 356th Drive from SR-202. In fact, Tokul Rd. is the trail at that point. This is the on-road portion that I mentioned.I meant the total distance to a northern destination. The trail from Tokul Road makes a large “U” bend, and 202 makes a smaller “U” bend. The Fish Hatchery Road is more direct.
Google Maps also shows a clearcut power-line path from 202 to the middle of Fish Hatchery Road that bypasses another bend. I don’t know if it’s walkable or no tresspassing though. I don’t fully trust unnamed clearcuts in Google Maps, not went I went on the Soos Creek Trail and arrived at 192nd and thought it would go through Boulevard Park to Petrovitsky, but instead the path ended impassably and had a no trespassing sign.
(I’m also wondering the same thing about Stuck River Drive before the east end of the White River Trail. Google Streetview shows an unreadable sign at Feature Farm, and I can’t tell if it’s just a car sign or what. On the other hand, the trail runs into the road east of it, so they must expect people coming from the trail there.)
Walking, North Bend to Redmond is way to far for a day trip. You could camp overnight at Tolt MacDonald Park in Carnation, but I think it’s still too far from there to any useful bus stop. Even with a bike, North Bend to Redmond would be several hours, one way. A great ride, though.
In the other direction, though, one could easily walk one direction from North Bend to Rattlesnake Ledge if you’re willing hitchhike back. Or you can bring a bike with you and do the round trip yourself.
I have an idea for a post someone should do. Profile 10 or so different regional public figures, then write a post on how each one commutes to work. Who would be profiled, I’ll let you decide, but I would include people like the King Co Exec, The head of ST, The Chair of the Port, Amazon CEO, Kemper Freeman. But make it your own.
Another thing I want someone to look into and write a post on … Next to the Eastgate P&R, I saw a charter bus that said Snoqualimie Casinso on the side, picking up a group of about 30 people all waiting on the sidewalk to board. Presumably these were all casino employees being taking to work. I’m curious if this is a free service the employer provides? Or is there a nominal fee? And how many other business hire buses to bring employees to work? We all know Microsoft does, but what about smaller companies? Who’s out there doing this? Why are our own school throwing a bus pass in children’s faces and telling them to go ride a public bus with strange adults to get home, but private businesses are providing safe transportation to and from work?
I doubt that the Snoqualmie Casino bus is hauling employees. This bus also stops in the International District near ID Station.
I just Binged it. You are right. It leaves every day from Bellevue at 9:55 AM to bring customers, not employees, to the casino. I just assumed since I saw it picking up a crowd of people in the morning, it was employees going to work. What’s interesting is the website also says there are 19 other locations around the county that Snoqualmie Casino Express buses picks up people at. People pay $10 to get on the bus, but when they get to the casino, they get $10 back, plus another $10 food voucher. What a smart business move!
I just Binged™ “sam renowned transportation expert bellevue”, and I got a Yelp listing for a PRO Sports Club.
[Presented without comment.]
d.p., the same result shows up when I Googled it. So, does that mean that Sam trolls Yelp too?
I suppose that same hit is there, way down at the bottom of the page. Not a top-two highlight, as Bing™’s interpretation of inquisitive intent rendered as ranked worldly relevance might have it.
Sam enjoys filling our eyeballs with protestations of his wide-ranging wisdom, followed by invitations to pursue his strawmen across the internet and report back to him. And yet he repeatedly makes a point of Binging™ — as a verb — his wild geese, as no human being in possession of an ounce of sense or genuine curiosity would ever do.
His comments should be programmed cut off immediately following his use of the word.
d.p. and aw, can you tell me if your problem is with Sam or with Bing? You seem so earnest to slam on this guy that you’ll grab at any reason to do so.
Microsoft has every right to compete in the search engine space. Lay off it.
I have no problem with Bing. I use it myself.
It’s for gamblers. Folks pay $10 and get a $10 gambling credit and a $10 food credit. A lot of casinos around the country do this.
http://snocasinoexpress.com
The casino bus largely about allowing people to drink more freely while at the casino, knowing that they won’t have to drive home. Since drunk people are more likely to throw away large amounts of money gambling, the bus service easily pays for itself. And if the person, after busing home drunk, has to bus back to the casino the next day to pick up their car, and winds up gambling some more while they’re there, all the better.
During the day there isn’t much drinking. Rather it’s designed for senior citizens to relieve them of some of their extra funds and give them to the local Indian tribe. I’ve taken varying versions of these in different cities and they are generally immigrant, mostly male (although there are occasional gaggles of middle aged and older women), and generally on the older side. The players are generally video poker if they are bright, slots if they aren’t – I rarely see any table game players on these. For the ones that don’t gamble, they can hang out at the coffee shop nursing a meal for a few hours and no one will mind since weekday afternoons are not exactly busy.
Sam, I recall you saying you walk to work. As an international-award-winning completer of the NYT crossword puzzle in six languages, you are certainly a public figure.
Could you tell the audience a little about your walk to work?
I could, but I don’t want to shame you.
Executive Constantine, County Councilmember Joe McDermott, and City Councilmember Tom Rasmussen had a race involving their preferred commute modes.
It is no wonder Constantine and McDermott are better at responding to email.
And the winner is?
SuperTom – Faster than a speeding bus, More powerful than a Watertaxi
FYI, not every Microsoft employee rides Connector. If someone works a schedule that isn’t 9a-6p M-F, as one of several limitations, the Connector is right out. Most of my FTE brethren take the Sound Transit version of the Connector, the 545. Microsoft Commute has said that they try to only provide Connector service where it doesn’t overlap with public transit (primarily for one-seat rides, I imagine), though I’m sure that Cap Hill is an exception.
I also believe contract workers can’t ride Connector.
The Connector schedules vary heavily between routes. The least popular routes (especially in the Eastside) have only a single AM trip in and a single PM trip out. The most popular routes (Capitol Hill, Belltown/Queen Anne) have as many as nine trips in each direction. I believe there are some trips that leave Seattle as early as 6:45 AM and as late as 9:45 AM, and that leave Redmond as early as 4 PM and as late as 7 PM. So the schedule constraint isn’t as tight as you might think, at least for the popular routes.
You’re right that the Connector doesn’t help people who work weekends or late nights, and Sam is right that the Connector doesn’t help temps or contractors. It’s FTEs and interns only.
Microsoft goes to great lengths to ensure that the Connector doesn’t overlap with any preexisting Metro/ST one-seat rides. That’s why there’s no Connector to downtown or the U-District. It’s also why, until recently, the Connector didn’t stop at Bellevue & Pine, despite passing through there on its way back to Redmond. The stop used to be at Broadway and Howell, and it was a two-way stop, which made it qualitatively different than the one-way 545 deviation. Microsoft temporarily moved that stop to Bellevue & Pine due to First Hill Streetcar construction, but I believe the plan is to move it back once construction is complete.
I’d also take a Metro bus over one of the short Connector ones based solely on comfort. The one time I rode a Connector to Ballard (one-off trip and I’ve never been on one of the big Connectors) featured a very bumpy, almost-nauseous ride in the 24-person “oversized van.” Oh, and Metro drivers aren’t allowed to have the radio blaring obnoxious programming (they leave that to the passengers). The e-mail response from “commute” to that feedback form was amusing.
The buses you refer to definitely aren’t the most comfortable. However, you’re guaranteed a seat, and you’re also guaranteed a one-seat ride. (A lot of people just sleep, which you can’t really do if you have to switch buses halfway through your trip.) Many of the Connector routes exit the freeway somewhere other than I-5/Denny, which means that you potentially save a lot of time by not backtracking to downtown (and not getting stuck in that traffic).
The busiest routes — Capitol Hill and Belltown, and maybe some others — use slightly larger buses. They’re not the coach buses used by the Eastside routes, but they’re much more comfortable than the converted vans.
Even though the Connector does now stop at Bellevue and Pine, the 545 is usually faster from that location, as it gets straight on the freeway, rather than doing two more stops in Capitol Hill. After Montlake, the Connector and the 545 are pretty much exactly the same.
I usually choose the 542/545 over the Connector, primarily due to the convenience offered by increased frequency. With the 542 and 545 combined at Montlake, I can show up at the bus stop without even paying attention to what time is and rarely have to wait more than 5-10 minutes for a bus. It should also be noted that while the 545 is often standing room, the 542 almost always has available seats.
Probably the same buses that are taking folks up to the casino to gamble, for a fare of $10. In the ID they stop across the street from where the BOLT buses stop, catering to what appears a much different crowd.
OK. My question of the week is a follow-up to last weeks question.
Last week, I learned that the 6000-series RapidRide coaches are apparently hush-equipped, as they have the yellow strobe light on their back ends like the 2600- and 6800-series artic hybrids. If that is true then:
1. Does Metro plan to put a RapidRide line in the DSTT sometime between now and 2019?
2. If not, then what was the point of Hush-equipping the RR coaches?
1) No.
2) Its as simple a computer programming, so why not? Prepare for all contingencies.
See here for answers:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/brasegaliwa/12335305265/
What do people think of this? A bus that would follow the routes of future link light rail lines & stops. Has this been proposed before?
What prompted this thought is why can’t I catch a bus at Mountlake Terrace Transit Center and a few stops later be at Northgate Transit Center? In 2023ish, I’ll be able to, but I need to get home sooner than that… :)
The lack of any reasonably fast Snohomish County connection from Northgate, 85th, or 125th has been a repeated problem for me. I’ve had two jobs now with coworkers from Lynnwood, Everett, and Edmonds, and I’d like to recommend transit to them (to Northgate or Sand Point) but it would take more than an hour each way.
I suspect the only reason the 512 doesn’t stop at Northgate Way is there’s no freeway station there.
There seems to be a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem. ST’s initial network included a peak-only route (505/506) between Northgate and Everett with freeway stops, but it suffered *extremely* poor ridership and was canned in short order.
Getting from Northgate to points north is a real problem; the only real option is to take the 346 or 347, which are slower than molasses, and connect to CT or ST at their northern terminals.
The problem is travel time. Link will be able to stop at Northgate on the way between Lynnwood and downtown with almost no time penalty. A bus would have to exit the the freeway and wait at several stoplights to pull into the transit center. I believe the only thru-bus that does is is the peak-only 303.
Back when I used to live around Northgate, I used to work around the missing connection by jogging just over 2 miles to the 145th St. Freeway Station and catching the 510 or 511 there. Since then, I’ve moved, so it’s not an issue anymore.
I would like to see a weekly STB post boosting King County Prop 1. That proposition is so important, especially since we’ve now had not one but two legislative seasons end without a transportation package.
My blame, for what it is worth, is bipartisan. I’ll stop there since last time I went too far to some more, er, progressive readers.
My point is this: If you’re going to save transit, you are simply going to have to dig in and fight. Keep pummeling with facts the other side and repetition, repetition, repetition. Don’t let the lame mainstream media sound byte this referendum. Don’t let the lazy talking heads screw this one up. This will be a low turnout election because most are too lazy to vote every time a ballot is mailed to them. We can only counter that with passionate, sustainable intensity.
There.
I agree with you that this campaign needs reminders, and facts, and continually getting out the message that this tax increase–while annoying and regressive–is necessary. If the side message gets out that it’s annoying and regressive and necessary because of the rest of the state’s “We Hate Seattle” vibe, even better. Persecuting and holding hostage the portion of the state that generates the most economic activity is no way to go through life, east of the Cascades.
On your other point, you’re probably referring to me, at least a little. I object to the use of name calling when discussing politics. It does nothing but reduce the important discourse to the level of schoolyard bullying. (Oh, and to the oft-discussed “lame mainstream media” meme, if a particular radio or streaming Internet program receives tens of millions of listeners or viewers, it is just as much a part of regular media as the other political pundits.)
Thanks lakecityrider. I love Seattle very much. Many working winter vacations and joyful summer vacations have been taken in the world’s best city – and not just visits to the Museum of Flight but also I’ve made overnight trips of visits to two Coalition for Open Government Conferences in 2010 & 2012. I can gush about Seattle some more, but that’s beyond the point.
That said, I believe very strongly in labels and campaigning stridently. But that’s my style – define the opposition and attack hard. My shot at the lame mainstream media is just as much at KVI & KTTH as KIRO & the Seattle Times – or any media outlet that is large in subscription/listenership/viewership but short in facts. Heck, until I feel I can have an adult conversation w/ a KVI or KTTH host… I’m not listening to their blather.
Have a lucky week lakecityrider!
Something like this what you have in mind? From my trip to Seattle last week:
http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a534/ns95X/Seattle/Photo134.jpg
Re: “This will be a low turnout election because most are too lazy to vote every time a ballot is mailed to them.”
I agree; and it’s too bad because it means those who don’t vote are having their decisions made by those who do. So it’s up to supporters of transit far and wide to get the word out. And those who turn 18 by the date of the election should know they have the right to register to vote, but the date to do so is quickly approaching:
http://kingcounty.gov/elections/register/requirements.aspx
http://kingcounty.gov/elections/register/deadlines.aspx
Seriously, last week Seattle looked like the Super Bowl was yesterday, but nothing anywhere that there’s an election next month. For another example of what complacency does, try looking up “1994 NBA Playoffs Seattle Denver Game 5.” Yes it was 20 years ago but it applies today. The details are most definitely off-topic for this site.
Great thoughts Jason :-).
STB folks need to wake up, wolf down some Folger’s coffee and kick some a**. This election’s going to come down to who wants to win!!! Already we’re seeing the King County Republicans and the Washington Policy Center ( http://washingtonpolicy.org/research/transportation/new ) put out spin.
Us? Crickets.
Nice concept, but visuals get people’s attention faster. (OK, so I majored in engineering rather than marketing but it sounds correct.)
How about something along the lines of simple question, divided into to images?
“Traffic Apocalypse or Transit?”
with something like this:
http://egotvonline.com//srv/htdocs/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/houston.jpg?41ed4f
plus an appropriate transit image?
Has anyone gotten ballots in the mail yet? Do you know when they’re sending them?
Sorry if this has already been mentioned:
I’d go except I have to work until 5 and it takes me just shy of an hour via Metro or ST to go the seven miles from Totem Lake.