I had the “pleasure” of riding the Northern Line daily for about 4 months in 1988. Back then the line was a shamble and LT even had to dig out trains from 1938 to keep service running. This was of course just after the infamous King’s Cross fire. TfL has made some amazing inroads into the cleaning and maintenance of the tube, and especially the Northern Line since then.
I first visited London in the mid-1990s, and the changes since then hhave been rather remarkable, but still much to do to bring the systems to 21st century standards. Since there is almost no 4 tracking in their system, there will likely never be 24 hour service in London. Well worth a several day visit just riding their different lines and visiting the Transport Museum at Covent Garden.
What does tracking system mean?
I mean 4 tracking.
Quadruple track – so two can be closed for repairs and maintenance whilst the other two remain open for operating, passenger carrying trains. NYC has miles and miles of quadruple track, most other systems do not, hence the need to close for a few hours each night, as shown in the Wired video Oran shared with us.
wouldn’t be possible on a two tracking system to at least run trains 24 hours on the weekends (lets say on a half hour frequency at night) all major repairs could be done on the weeknights. If a major issue should arise on the weekend couldn’t they run trains on just one track. I assume that most system have enough crossovers to preform fine at that kind of frequency.
Link currently has 8 crossovers at PSST, Stadium Station, O&M Facility, Walden, Othello, Henderson St, S 133rd St, and Tukwila Intl’ Blvd. There probably will be one at SeaTac/Airport station, too.
Alternatives to Link between 1 am-5 am exist: The 7 pretty much already runs 24 hours with roughly hourly headways. Add 2-3 more trips per direction and you got 30 minute headways. Proposed route 195 (is it still being considered?) will also service the airport hourly when Link’s closed. I don’t know about the economics of it but having live trains running during engineering hours is a safety risk, even with single track operation. There’s a reason we don’t see many cities around the world running 24h rail service, instead opting for night buses.
Shows you why it’s difficult to run 24 hour service.
Sound Transit really needs to add a Sounder station at Ballard and Olympic Sculpture Park.
Ballard proved to us they wanted transit into Seattle with the monorail. They’re served by slow buses and won’t be served by regional rail for the foreseeable future (streetcar isn’t regional rail). Using the parking lot just east of Golden Gardens during the day could work (and transit P&R use should be a priority). The station would also be away from the unstable slopes that butt up against the line to the south. http://tinyurl.com/ballardparking
OSP could use a station to serve the very-transit-disconnected northern part of downtown around Seattle Center. To get from King Street to the north end takes 20-30 minutes via bus. My dad has taken the Sounder from Edmonds since day 1 but can’t take it anymore because it takes so long to get from KSS to that area via buses. It’s faster for him to drive up 15th and HY99 to get home than Sounder via Edmonds > King Street > north end. I bet with a shuttle going up Broad St and the future street car connections, this station could be a hit real.
I’m disappointed to see that ST is only funding a study for those two stations and they’re not going to take any action. Maybe with all this money they’re saving from Link, they could do something. As it stands, it seems like possibility lost. And with the north end’s ridership being kind of stagnate, it would give commuters more options.
Thats my open thread rant.
Good rant.
It wasn’t a study that was funded, the stations would be funded if enough money shows up. Unfortunately, the bad economy makes that look unlikely.
I think there’s also a political problem, since Snohomish pays 100% for North Link, they would want “North King” aka Seattle to pay for some service if those stations were built.
Ahem. I’ve been talking about a 2nd Avenue tunnel with subway through the city and extensions to West Seattle and Ballard. If you want it, help me write the initiative to start doing land purchases.
It does seem strange that ST won’t do anything to a light-duty standard, that everything has to be so overbuilt.
A major reason Tukwila Station opened was to quell the “Southcenter needs LINK” faction that was getting pretty significant traction.
Normally the beauty of commuter rail is that you only need as much infrastructure as a bus stop pad.
Of course ST wouldn’t hear of it.
People around here demand artsy, elaborate stations. A simple platform like Edmonds just isn’t good enough. Although, the benefit if the stations is that they look nice, attract ridership, deter crime, and create a positive community center. And they last longer.
Take Link Stations vs. MAX stations. WORLDS different. Though, the Green Line stations are looking very Link-like.
I’m glad Link’s being built to such a high level. It’s not going to be completely full in ten years like it would be if it were built to just two car trains.
It’s also not going to get as low ridership as if it were built at grade the entire way.
off topic …
Miami-Dade launches construction on airport extension
Today, Miami-Dade Transit will break ground on a 2.4-mile Metrorail extension from the Earlington Heights station to the Miami Intermodal Center, which is being built next to Miami International Airport.
they have PDF versions of their first 3 or 4 issues (in english)
Is it true that Link can’t run four car trains until U-Link opens? I read somewhere something about four car trains not fitting into the turn-around at westlake.
I’m pretty sure this is false. However, there probably won’t be demand for many four-car trains outside of special events (opening weekend, sports games) until after U-Link opens.
No, this is true. Link will only be able to run 2-car trains until ULink is open. There is the potential to run 4 cars between Stadium and SeaTac for events but they can’t enter the Downtown Seattle Transit Tunnel (DTSTT).
The Pine Street stub tunnels (PSST) are currently long enough to fit a 4 car train with the required signal and bumping post clearances After the crossover, the split off into two separate chambers, divided by a large wall that houses fans and other stuff. After about 5 car lengths from the point of switch (required for said clearances), the tunnels end.
To construct ULink, the tunnel wall at the end of the PSST will have to be bored though so the ULink tunnels can go north. This will require a construction wall about 2 car lengths off the existing end of tunnel. This wall is necessary to prevent noise and construction dust from entering the DTSTT and to provide workers a safe place to work. We still need 1-car length for the signal system to work at all and for the bumping post to work safely.
You might say this could have been mitigated during construction of the PSST by making the stub tunnels longer, but since nobody knew how the ULink tunnels were coming out of the PSST, it wasn’t feasible ten years ago. Actually, we have to remove and relay the tracks north of the Westlake crossover as the geometry is off. The tracks as they are today will not fit into the ULink tunnel bores. But, on the bright side, that’s only about 200′ of track, or 2 car lengths, and it would have to be removed anyways to construct ULink! So no problem at all in the end. Thank goodness they didn’t make the tunnels longer at the time. It was a tight enough fit to go north as it is! Honestly, there was no way to predict this would have happened 10 years ago when the PSST was designed. 10 years ago, there was going to be a station at First Hill!
Interesting. Kind of a bummer. If ST needs to increase capacity to serve more people, they can’t do it. At least we get two car trains in 76 days! Beats the zero car trains we’ve had for 70 years.
It’s not really a bummer. If Portland can still handle 2 car trains after running their service for 20 years, I think we’ll be fine for five or six years. :) Remember that the tunneling at this end will be done long before the extension opens.
Is it two or three? I’ll get an answer, but I thought it was three. More than enough, they’ll rarely (never?) need more than two until U-Link opens.
A quick perusal of the internet turns up two and three. I’ll have to ask those who know, but it’ll be monday.
Even then, two cars is 400 people, that’s a lot.
More than enough, they’ll rarely (never?) need more than two until U-Link opens.
For some reason, I hope you’re proven right and wrong :).
Just to confirm, Portland’s system can only run 2-car trains (each car is of course an articulated unit made up of two ends) due to the famous 200-foot blocks that make downtown Portland, OR so walkable and livable.
easy … just add more frequent 2-car trains … that will more than make up for the lack of 4 car trains
The peak hour headways are 6-8 minutes, should be good enough with 200 passenger capacity trains. I don’t know how much flexibility they have with schedule coordination between the trains and tunnel buses. Once Link goes below a certain headway some buses will need to be removed.
They can’t run 4-car trains but it looks like they can run 3-car trains. I saw a photo in the latest ST Progress Report on Link light rail with a 3-car train inside University Street station. Surely they wouldn’t run them if they couldn’t turn them around or was it just a photo-op?
There is enough room at PSST to turn a 4-car trainset. So, at the moment, they can run 4-car trains. Work hasn’t begun in the PSST for ULink so the wall isn’t in place yet. I don’t know when the 2-car limitation will begin. Once the wall is in place, there will only be enough space for 2 LRV’s on either stub track. The crossover at UW easily allows for 4-car trains. The three and four car trainsets are for testing and, in this apparent case, for a photo op.
Once ULink tunnel construction has begin in the Pine Street stub tunnels, Link can only run 2-car trainsets into the Downtown Seattle Transit Tunnel.
As far as I can tell, CT only has one double decker bus. It appears it only runs on Rt 402. Which northbound run(s) does it run on?
I’ve always called that neighborhood “the ID”. so the station ot me is “ID station”.
I’ve always said “ID Station” too (though when family visited, I explained that to them)
Bonus: at the other end of the tunnel is Convention Place Station, aka CPS.
On the official web site: http://www.cidbia.org – it says Chinatown-International District.
The name of the development agency for the neigborhood is called: Chinatown-International District Buisiness Improvement Area.
I commuted on the Jubilee & Hammersmith lines for 6 months in 2000. The condition of the national rail network was quite a scandal back then. Lots of delays and people getting stuck on tube trains. I suspect some of this maintenance work was made more efficient since the infusion of funds from the congestion fees in London, but somebody here probably knows the details better than I.
I’ll never forget pushing onto a COMPLETELY packed 300 foot long train during rush hour. Think of a 300 foot long human sausage made up of people packed in tight but trying desperately to not touch each other. Great experience, but if I knew then what I know now, I would have bought a folding bike and biked to work instead.
(They have since added another car to trains on the Jubilee line so they are over 350 feet long now)
A four car link train is 360 feet, but we’re also not anywhere near as big as London, obviously.
The Jubilee Line carriages are fairly short due to sharp turns in the tunnels, but a 4 car Link train is approx equal in length to a 6 or 7 car Jubilee Line train.
As far as I know, the congestion charge never really makes any money, because it’s so expensive to implement. Whatever the source, though, Britain and especially London has poured a lot more money into public transport infrastructure since 2000, and the benefits show. By the time I moved away in 2002, getting around on rails had become significantly more reliable, and since then London has added huge amounts of bus capacity (because it can’t really add capacity to the central Tube system).
Great, now I want to travel to London (especially to see the Jubilee Line Extension). Thanks a bunch everyone! ;)
Seriously, if I did go (which I am thinking about it), what would my trusty wheelchair need to know about getting around London? I assume it’s no Spring or Madison (I hate those hills for obvious reasons – believe me, it’s a pain even going down since my chair would get out of control)
It’s been a while since I’ve been there, but if memory serves I recall that not all the Tube stations are accessible. Many stations have been rebuilt with lifts though, and I think that all of the stations on the Jubilee Line Extension should have lifts. If you go to the journey planner at http://www.tfl.gov.uk/ and click on “Advanced Options” on the right of the page it will give you the options to search for accessible stations. London is very flat, so you shouldn’t have much trouble getting around on the surface. Just remember to look to the right when crossing the street! I’d also recommend traveling in the afternoon or late evening to avoid the crowds on the Tube. Good luck and have fun if you decide to go.
Thanks. I’m sure I’ll hate the jet lag though (maybe I’ll pit stop in Virginia Beach, VA to see family and the world’s lousiest bus system – see Route 36 on http://www.gohrt.com to understand … and it’s Virginia’s largest city by population at about 400k)
Zed is right – if you are using a wheelchair, you truly need to do a lot of planning to avoid the older, unrenovated stations. Jubilee Line from Westminster to Stratford and all of the Docklands Light Railway should be totally accessible at all opening hours. Otherwise, beware, check the TfL web-site daily and even hourly before traveling to unrenovated or under reconstruction stations. All that said, London is truly wonderful, especially if one avoids the huge attractions and seek out smaller places with fewer US visitors; neighbourhoods, churches with fee concerts, the markets and parks, etc – so much to see, hear and do.
In other news, I’ve been enjoying usage of my ORCA. Couple of drivers wondered where my Microsoft ID was
I had the “pleasure” of riding the Northern Line daily for about 4 months in 1988. Back then the line was a shamble and LT even had to dig out trains from 1938 to keep service running. This was of course just after the infamous King’s Cross fire. TfL has made some amazing inroads into the cleaning and maintenance of the tube, and especially the Northern Line since then.
I first visited London in the mid-1990s, and the changes since then hhave been rather remarkable, but still much to do to bring the systems to 21st century standards. Since there is almost no 4 tracking in their system, there will likely never be 24 hour service in London. Well worth a several day visit just riding their different lines and visiting the Transport Museum at Covent Garden.
What does tracking system mean?
I mean 4 tracking.
Quadruple track – so two can be closed for repairs and maintenance whilst the other two remain open for operating, passenger carrying trains. NYC has miles and miles of quadruple track, most other systems do not, hence the need to close for a few hours each night, as shown in the Wired video Oran shared with us.
wouldn’t be possible on a two tracking system to at least run trains 24 hours on the weekends (lets say on a half hour frequency at night) all major repairs could be done on the weeknights. If a major issue should arise on the weekend couldn’t they run trains on just one track. I assume that most system have enough crossovers to preform fine at that kind of frequency.
Link currently has 8 crossovers at PSST, Stadium Station, O&M Facility, Walden, Othello, Henderson St, S 133rd St, and Tukwila Intl’ Blvd. There probably will be one at SeaTac/Airport station, too.
Alternatives to Link between 1 am-5 am exist: The 7 pretty much already runs 24 hours with roughly hourly headways. Add 2-3 more trips per direction and you got 30 minute headways. Proposed route 195 (is it still being considered?) will also service the airport hourly when Link’s closed. I don’t know about the economics of it but having live trains running during engineering hours is a safety risk, even with single track operation. There’s a reason we don’t see many cities around the world running 24h rail service, instead opting for night buses.
Shows you why it’s difficult to run 24 hour service.
Sound Transit really needs to add a Sounder station at Ballard and Olympic Sculpture Park.
Ballard proved to us they wanted transit into Seattle with the monorail. They’re served by slow buses and won’t be served by regional rail for the foreseeable future (streetcar isn’t regional rail). Using the parking lot just east of Golden Gardens during the day could work (and transit P&R use should be a priority). The station would also be away from the unstable slopes that butt up against the line to the south. http://tinyurl.com/ballardparking
OSP could use a station to serve the very-transit-disconnected northern part of downtown around Seattle Center. To get from King Street to the north end takes 20-30 minutes via bus. My dad has taken the Sounder from Edmonds since day 1 but can’t take it anymore because it takes so long to get from KSS to that area via buses. It’s faster for him to drive up 15th and HY99 to get home than Sounder via Edmonds > King Street > north end. I bet with a shuttle going up Broad St and the future street car connections, this station could be a hit real.
I’m disappointed to see that ST is only funding a study for those two stations and they’re not going to take any action. Maybe with all this money they’re saving from Link, they could do something. As it stands, it seems like possibility lost. And with the north end’s ridership being kind of stagnate, it would give commuters more options.
Thats my open thread rant.
Good rant.
It wasn’t a study that was funded, the stations would be funded if enough money shows up. Unfortunately, the bad economy makes that look unlikely.
I think there’s also a political problem, since Snohomish pays 100% for North Link, they would want “North King” aka Seattle to pay for some service if those stations were built.
Ahem. I’ve been talking about a 2nd Avenue tunnel with subway through the city and extensions to West Seattle and Ballard. If you want it, help me write the initiative to start doing land purchases.
It does seem strange that ST won’t do anything to a light-duty standard, that everything has to be so overbuilt.
A major reason Tukwila Station opened was to quell the “Southcenter needs LINK” faction that was getting pretty significant traction.
Normally the beauty of commuter rail is that you only need as much infrastructure as a bus stop pad.
Of course ST wouldn’t hear of it.
People around here demand artsy, elaborate stations. A simple platform like Edmonds just isn’t good enough. Although, the benefit if the stations is that they look nice, attract ridership, deter crime, and create a positive community center. And they last longer.
Take Link Stations vs. MAX stations. WORLDS different. Though, the Green Line stations are looking very Link-like.
I’m glad Link’s being built to such a high level. It’s not going to be completely full in ten years like it would be if it were built to just two car trains.
It’s also not going to get as low ridership as if it were built at grade the entire way.
off topic …
Miami-Dade launches construction on airport extension
Today, Miami-Dade Transit will break ground on a 2.4-mile Metrorail extension from the Earlington Heights station to the Miami Intermodal Center, which is being built next to Miami International Airport.
more … http://www.progressiverailroading.com/news/article.asp?id=20300
if anyone is interested in foreign light rail / urban transit projects … check this out …
http://www.cityrailways.net/en/home.asp
they have PDF versions of their first 3 or 4 issues (in english)
Is it true that Link can’t run four car trains until U-Link opens? I read somewhere something about four car trains not fitting into the turn-around at westlake.
I’m pretty sure this is false. However, there probably won’t be demand for many four-car trains outside of special events (opening weekend, sports games) until after U-Link opens.
No, this is true. Link will only be able to run 2-car trains until ULink is open. There is the potential to run 4 cars between Stadium and SeaTac for events but they can’t enter the Downtown Seattle Transit Tunnel (DTSTT).
The Pine Street stub tunnels (PSST) are currently long enough to fit a 4 car train with the required signal and bumping post clearances After the crossover, the split off into two separate chambers, divided by a large wall that houses fans and other stuff. After about 5 car lengths from the point of switch (required for said clearances), the tunnels end.
To construct ULink, the tunnel wall at the end of the PSST will have to be bored though so the ULink tunnels can go north. This will require a construction wall about 2 car lengths off the existing end of tunnel. This wall is necessary to prevent noise and construction dust from entering the DTSTT and to provide workers a safe place to work. We still need 1-car length for the signal system to work at all and for the bumping post to work safely.
You might say this could have been mitigated during construction of the PSST by making the stub tunnels longer, but since nobody knew how the ULink tunnels were coming out of the PSST, it wasn’t feasible ten years ago. Actually, we have to remove and relay the tracks north of the Westlake crossover as the geometry is off. The tracks as they are today will not fit into the ULink tunnel bores. But, on the bright side, that’s only about 200′ of track, or 2 car lengths, and it would have to be removed anyways to construct ULink! So no problem at all in the end. Thank goodness they didn’t make the tunnels longer at the time. It was a tight enough fit to go north as it is! Honestly, there was no way to predict this would have happened 10 years ago when the PSST was designed. 10 years ago, there was going to be a station at First Hill!
Interesting. Kind of a bummer. If ST needs to increase capacity to serve more people, they can’t do it. At least we get two car trains in 76 days! Beats the zero car trains we’ve had for 70 years.
It’s not really a bummer. If Portland can still handle 2 car trains after running their service for 20 years, I think we’ll be fine for five or six years. :) Remember that the tunneling at this end will be done long before the extension opens.
Is it two or three? I’ll get an answer, but I thought it was three. More than enough, they’ll rarely (never?) need more than two until U-Link opens.
A quick perusal of the internet turns up two and three. I’ll have to ask those who know, but it’ll be monday.
Even then, two cars is 400 people, that’s a lot.
More than enough, they’ll rarely (never?) need more than two until U-Link opens.
For some reason, I hope you’re proven right and wrong :).
Just to confirm, Portland’s system can only run 2-car trains (each car is of course an articulated unit made up of two ends) due to the famous 200-foot blocks that make downtown Portland, OR so walkable and livable.
easy … just add more frequent 2-car trains … that will more than make up for the lack of 4 car trains
The peak hour headways are 6-8 minutes, should be good enough with 200 passenger capacity trains. I don’t know how much flexibility they have with schedule coordination between the trains and tunnel buses. Once Link goes below a certain headway some buses will need to be removed.
They can’t run 4-car trains but it looks like they can run 3-car trains. I saw a photo in the latest ST Progress Report on Link light rail with a 3-car train inside University Street station. Surely they wouldn’t run them if they couldn’t turn them around or was it just a photo-op?
There is enough room at PSST to turn a 4-car trainset. So, at the moment, they can run 4-car trains. Work hasn’t begun in the PSST for ULink so the wall isn’t in place yet. I don’t know when the 2-car limitation will begin. Once the wall is in place, there will only be enough space for 2 LRV’s on either stub track. The crossover at UW easily allows for 4-car trains. The three and four car trainsets are for testing and, in this apparent case, for a photo op.
Once ULink tunnel construction has begin in the Pine Street stub tunnels, Link can only run 2-car trainsets into the Downtown Seattle Transit Tunnel.
As far as I can tell, CT only has one double decker bus. It appears it only runs on Rt 402. Which northbound run(s) does it run on?
Tim: See http://www.commtrans.org/Projects/DoubleTall.cfm They show what routes and what trips that’ll use the Double Tall bus.
For May 4-15
413 from Swamp Creek & Ash Way P&Rs (Southbound) 6:46 am trip
417 to Mukilteo (Northbound) 5:05 pm trip
Also, as you can see from the website that Oran linked to, CT has order 23 more which will be delivered in 2010.
Thank you both!
Spokane article of interest:
“Bus service a lifeline for city’s poor”
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2009/may/02/bus-service-lifeline-citys-poor/
Is it International District/Chinatown or Chinatown/International District?
ID/C. See: http://transit.metrokc.gov/tops/tunnel/tunnel.html
International District Station was renamed International District/Chinatown Station on October 19, 2004.
A lot of folks still just call it International District Station or IDS for short.
http://www.metrokc.gov/MKCC/News/2004/1004/DP_IDChinatown_Station_Ordinance.htm
I’ve always called that neighborhood “the ID”. so the station ot me is “ID station”.
I’ve always said “ID Station” too (though when family visited, I explained that to them)
Bonus: at the other end of the tunnel is Convention Place Station, aka CPS.
On the official web site: http://www.cidbia.org – it says Chinatown-International District.
The name of the development agency for the neigborhood is called: Chinatown-International District Buisiness Improvement Area.
I commuted on the Jubilee & Hammersmith lines for 6 months in 2000. The condition of the national rail network was quite a scandal back then. Lots of delays and people getting stuck on tube trains. I suspect some of this maintenance work was made more efficient since the infusion of funds from the congestion fees in London, but somebody here probably knows the details better than I.
I’ll never forget pushing onto a COMPLETELY packed 300 foot long train during rush hour. Think of a 300 foot long human sausage made up of people packed in tight but trying desperately to not touch each other. Great experience, but if I knew then what I know now, I would have bought a folding bike and biked to work instead.
(They have since added another car to trains on the Jubilee line so they are over 350 feet long now)
A four car link train is 360 feet, but we’re also not anywhere near as big as London, obviously.
The Jubilee Line carriages are fairly short due to sharp turns in the tunnels, but a 4 car Link train is approx equal in length to a 6 or 7 car Jubilee Line train.
As far as I know, the congestion charge never really makes any money, because it’s so expensive to implement. Whatever the source, though, Britain and especially London has poured a lot more money into public transport infrastructure since 2000, and the benefits show. By the time I moved away in 2002, getting around on rails had become significantly more reliable, and since then London has added huge amounts of bus capacity (because it can’t really add capacity to the central Tube system).
Great, now I want to travel to London (especially to see the Jubilee Line Extension). Thanks a bunch everyone! ;)
Seriously, if I did go (which I am thinking about it), what would my trusty wheelchair need to know about getting around London? I assume it’s no Spring or Madison (I hate those hills for obvious reasons – believe me, it’s a pain even going down since my chair would get out of control)
It’s been a while since I’ve been there, but if memory serves I recall that not all the Tube stations are accessible. Many stations have been rebuilt with lifts though, and I think that all of the stations on the Jubilee Line Extension should have lifts. If you go to the journey planner at http://www.tfl.gov.uk/ and click on “Advanced Options” on the right of the page it will give you the options to search for accessible stations. London is very flat, so you shouldn’t have much trouble getting around on the surface. Just remember to look to the right when crossing the street! I’d also recommend traveling in the afternoon or late evening to avoid the crowds on the Tube. Good luck and have fun if you decide to go.
Thanks. I’m sure I’ll hate the jet lag though (maybe I’ll pit stop in Virginia Beach, VA to see family and the world’s lousiest bus system – see Route 36 on http://www.gohrt.com to understand … and it’s Virginia’s largest city by population at about 400k)
Zed is right – if you are using a wheelchair, you truly need to do a lot of planning to avoid the older, unrenovated stations. Jubilee Line from Westminster to Stratford and all of the Docklands Light Railway should be totally accessible at all opening hours. Otherwise, beware, check the TfL web-site daily and even hourly before traveling to unrenovated or under reconstruction stations. All that said, London is truly wonderful, especially if one avoids the huge attractions and seek out smaller places with fewer US visitors; neighbourhoods, churches with fee concerts, the markets and parks, etc – so much to see, hear and do.
In other news, I’ve been enjoying usage of my ORCA. Couple of drivers wondered where my Microsoft ID was