Kemper Freeman’s war on transit. (Yet Another Urbanist)
Shinjuku Station — the world’s busiest. (Not Just Bikes)
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161 Replies to “Sunday Double Feature: Kemper & Shinjuku”
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Kemper Freeman’s war on transit. (Yet Another Urbanist)
Shinjuku Station — the world’s busiest. (Not Just Bikes)
This is an open thread.
Comments are closed.
Trimet is replacing its very old TMVs with the ones ORCA uses, it’ll be nice to have a place to get a fare card when leaving Portland Union Station that isn’t a PITA to get to.
https://youtube.com/shorts/1AfLUk9z72Y?si=lkHkdIRnOemRpgMa
Tacoma City Council passed zoning and parking requirements changes, it’s a good first step forward in terms of addressing housing in Tacoma.
https://www.cityoftacoma.org/government/city_council/city_council_news_releases/city_council_approves_home_in_tacoma_zoning_and_st
TriMet really needs to put a TVM inside Union Station. That way, people using FX2, 9, 17, etc don’t have to go all the way over to the MAX station and deal with the homeless at 6th and Hoyt.
Portland has tap to pay from mobile wallets. No reason to walk to a TVM if you have a smartphone.
https://myhopcard.com/home/pay-with-your-phone
There’s multiple reasons to still have TMVs, mostly around visitors and redundancy. Visitors may not know an app exists for Hop, or would perfer to have physical tickets. Either because they are like my parents who are older and not the most tech savvy. People like me who perfer physical cards or tickets in case my phone decides to die partway through a trip. Or because they’re unbanked or bank lite, where they primarily use cash or debit cards for most purchases.
Alongside adding and checking e purse balance on your fare card from any trimet stop or transit center with ease. Which is helpful if your phone dies like mine has done before.
Really dumb and nitpicky question, but why do they call Link “the 1 line” and “the 2 line” rather than Line 1, Line 2, etc. It’s like nails on a chalkboard to me.
Amen! The announcement on the train sounds like: “This is the one line to Angle Lake”, rather than “This is the ‘1’ line to Angle Lake.” The meaning is different and it’s yet another ‘duh’ moment for this transit system.
I believe it’s to avoid confusion with Metro’s routes 1 and 2.
It’s a hangover from Rogoff. He was a government bureaucrat, and not a very creative one at that. And he had a thing with naming things after numbers.
When Bertha broke down digging the DBT (a WSDOT project), he thought her problems might reflect poorly on the 2 TBM’s ST was then using to dig Northgate Link. So he renamed ST’s TBMs to be 1-TBM and 2-TBM. Sort of dumb.
Then, when people objected to naming the Link line through the RV the “Red Line” due to its racial connotations, he renamed the Red and the Blue lines as 1-Line and 2-Line.
Thank gawd no politician from the Eastside complained about the OMF in Seattle being called “OMF Central” on the grounds that it makes Seattle sound like the “center” and therefore more important, because I’m sure Rogoff would have renamed the OMF’s as 1-OMF and 2-OMF.
Na, the obvious solution to the line color problem would have been to switch to the colors Purple and Gold, with Gold being the line going thru the RV. Associated letter designations would then be “P” (for “Purple Line”) “G” (for “Gold Line”) with the appropriate colors used on all the maps and corresponding literature.
Using Purple and Gold for line names and colors would also serve the dual purpose of being a way-finding guide for getting to the UW.
Recoloring the 2 Line as Gold when the Great Conjunction arrives would be a nice improvement in wayfinding, and not without precedent. The Red Line became green when Northgate Link opened. Maybe even rebrand it as the Huskies Line. The 1 Line could be rebranded the Airport Line.
I love this.
Too sensible, though, and not confusing enough.
However, the future holds…
“This is Line…
[to – two] Redmond;
[2 – too] Redmond;
[too – two] Redmond”,…
Maybe just hold that note…
“This is Line Toooooo-ooooo
Redmond”
It’s an apparently arbitrary name. I call them the 1 Line and 2 Line officially in articles or to tell visitors what to look for, but otherwise I say Lines 1 and 2.
I remember that ST flirted with assigning colors to the lines, and when one line was proposed as the red line, hackles were raised about racist red-lining federal policies. I think that’s what prompted ST to use numbers instead, which is a shame. I’m not sure I can find a reference for this; I just remember reading about it a long time ago.
https://www.soundtransit.org/blog/platform/sound-transit-will-drop-red-line-name
A brief history of Link line colors (August 2015)
Red line travel times (August 2015)
ST switches from colors to numbers (April 2020)
That redlining claim is bogus; it’s comparing apples to oranges. Other cities have red lines without controversy, and now suddenly Seattle can’t.
Still, the switch to numbers was good thing. Numbers are universally recognized across different languages and numbering systems. It gives a natural ordering, and you can tell if you’re missing one because of the gap. The limitation of colors is shown by how both Swift and the DC Metro resort to two-letter equivalents for color-blind people (“OR”, “GR”); that’s ridiculous even if it’s necessary. One letter nicely distinguishes a line, like “A” in the NYC Subway or RapidRide. Two letters that are the initial letters of a word are a strange identifier for a subway line. Although I guess it worked for phone numbers: ATwater 5-3742.
The colors make so much sense and are much easier to understand. This just seems like old 2010s PC hysteric stupidity and time to revisit.
I still use the colors/names in LA as I have no clue what the numbers and letters are there now… it’s the red, purple, blue, green, gold, orange, expo lines to me (and I never lived there).
@ Pomcho:
There are a few big problems with colors.
1. Colors have different names in different languages. Many people would be confused if they heard “azul” as opposed to “blue” for example. While numbers also differ by language the confusion is less likely as it’s more common to understand those in another language.
2. Colors are meaningless to fully blind people. Green color blind people have a hard time discerning green from blue.
3. Colored symbols fade over time in sunlight — so red can become pink. Colors also fade unevenly so purple could look blue on some signs over time.
Rather than rehash the subject, I would point to the extensive committee work done by LA Metro on the topic. Here’s a link tied to the Board decision there summarizing all the extensive research and focus group work that they did:
https://datamade-metro-pdf-merger.s3.amazonaws.com/2018-0684.pdf
Slight tangent here, but each line, besides having a number, also has a color associated with it, So the 1 Line is green, the 2 Line is blue, and as new lines are added or reconfigured they will have corresponding unique colors as well. My question is, on the (Siemens) trains’ headsigns, the line is currently only designated by a colored square next to the final destination. Are there plans, once the 2 Line starts sharing tracks with the 1 Line on the west side of Lake Washington, to add each line’s number inside that square to make identification even easier, especially for color-blind individuals?
I’d actually ditch the letters, and go with meaningful pictograms, like an airplane for the Airport Line, and a Husky head for the Husky Line. The airplanes could be horizontal or vertical when used to point a direction, and diagonal when just referring to the line.
I’d reserve the graduation cap for when ST graduates to having the University Line (West Seattle to Everett), designated by purple.
Whatever the eventual color scheme, they should be distinct darknesses for colorblind riders.
@Al S,
I’ll respond as follows:
“1. Colors have different names in different languages.”
Exactly and that is why colors are better. Because, no matter what language you speak, there is always a word for the appropriate color. If you only speak Xhosa, and a relative tells you to take the purple line using the Xhosa word for purple, then you can still use the system. Because the color purple on the maps and sign boards is still purple, no matter what word you use to refer to it or what language you are using.
You don’t need to be an English native speaker to use the system if the system is based on colors. And you don’t need to even be literate either.
“2. Colors are meaningless to fully blind people. Green color blind people….”
This doesn’t matter. Blind people will have similar challenges no matter what system is used. That is why the proposed system uses three consistent layers of information — for the Purple Line these layers would be the “color purple”, the word “purple”, and the symbol “P”.
Fully blind riders would key off of the spoken word “purple”, same as they do now with the word “one”.
So no change with colors.
“3. Colored symbols fade over time in sunlight”
This isn’t much of a problem with modern signage, and see #2 above.
“Los Angeles”
The proposed system would be very much like what they adopted in LA. The only difference would be that the single letter designation for the line would be consistent with the color used. Aka, no using the letter “B” to correspond to the “Red Line”. The appropriate letter would be “R” for the “Red Line” and “B” for the “Blue Line”.
“If you only speak Xhosa, and a relative tells you to take the purple line using the Xhosa word for purple, then you can still use the system.”
But you can’t ask an English-speaking person which line to take, or tell them which line you want. They would hear you want nkqbhaʒ̈ʔu line and be completely baffled, and may not know the word “green”. In Russia I had to remember that zhyoltii was yellow and zelyonii was green and not get them reversed.
I’ve been a couple times in in the International District or Pine Street and a woman speaking little English comes up to the bus stop and asked how to get to something or when the next bus is coming. The first one it took me a few minutes to figure out she wanted Safeway, and the second one had trouble understanding “eleven minutes” or something. I ended up putting up fingers to make sure she got the minutes. Imagine if you had to tell them to take the Green Line.
@ Lazarus:
Both ST and LA Metro have different colors for each line. A rider still has the option of describing a line with color. The letters or numbers are primary but there is still color differentiation. LA Metro also has different background shapes (circles and squares) to differentiate between rail and rapid bus.
It’s worth noting that the original LA lines in the 1980’s were built by two different agencies — RTD and CTC. They merged about 35 years ago but when construction started they were separate.
Back in the old days, when color printing was expensive and low volume duplication was ruled by monochrome dinosaurs known as ditto machines, each Portland termination point had a one or two letter code.
This is a modernized map:
https://transitmap.net/store/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/1915_PortlandStreetcars_2500px.jpg
Hawthorne line trains ended at H. Hawthorne – Foster trains ended at MS. Mount Tabor trains ended at MT.
So, you could tell someone to take an MS car, which was indicated in a sign a foot tall, rather than the tiny print and scrolling signs used today. See the CC sign on these Council Crest examples:
http://pdxhistory.com/html/council_crest_cars.html
That way, you’ve got both a line and destination in one go, on a sign visible a block away.
Not that we should go back to that, but if you had a 23 Train headed to station #23 at the end of the line, you’d not need to worry about line or route names or any of that.
“no matter what language you speak, there is always a word for the appropriate color.”
Some languages have (or at least had) only two words for “dark colors” and “light colors”, or “blue/green” vs “red/yellow”. Even if they have non-primary terms to express finer shades (in English, “pink” instead of “red”, “azul” or “aquamarine” instead of “blue”), not everybody will use the same terms in the same situations, and the dividing line between one and another may be different than in English.
Arabic numbers are understood and used all over the world, especially in international/visitor situations, and a person can draw a number even if they don’t know the word in the other’s language or can’t read the signs.
I seem to be the only one who appreciates the name choice but hear me out. I like the name as it’s unique, we are to the only system (except New York) that uses number before line. Imagine how boring it would be to have a ‘red line’ or ‘blue line’ like every single other system. I actually quite like how it sounds but the robot voice could say it a bit slower. I also agree with Jim that if we changed it Line 2 it would be confusing for passengers.
If we’re going for uniqueness, let’s name them after different species of salmon, then. “This is the Coho Line to Angle Lake.” If we actually build out enough of the system to run out, we can start adding other anadromous fish.
As much as I like the routes being numbered, the “one line” is admittedly opposite of what most people would say and that makes it rather aggravating. I think ST was channeling the “first line” (adjective) but ended up with grammatically incorrect “one line”. I would have preferred “line one” too.
Relatedly, I don’t like how they inconsistently use a letter for Tacoma Link (T Line) as well as Sounder (S and N Lines that few use). And Stride will have a letter and a number (S1, S2 and S3). That’s three service naming concepts in just one operator!
If I had my preference I would have gone fully for the “German system” indicators, which is a letter for the mode and a number for the line. I think over time the public may end up using “L1” and”L2” anyway as abbreviations and we will say “Link 1 Line” and “Link 2 Line”. Then every mode that ST offers would have been obvious as no other local transit system uses a “letter number” description (although some use a “number letter (x)” for express routes). T line would be T1 (as in tram) and Sounder would be R1 and R2 (as in rail) in that scenario. It may take awhile but the German system designation seems inevitable for ST to end up using given how they’re almost there now.
I think over time the public may end up using “L1” and”L2” anyway as abbreviations and we will say “Link 1 Line” and “Link 2 Line”.
I think most people won’t refer to the line at all. For most of the trips it makes no difference. It is only if you board north of downtown and are heading south of downtown or to the East Side. Thus I think people will say things like “the train heading East” or the “Sound End train” or “the train to SeaTac/Bellevue/Redmond”. I think the trickier part is adjusting to the new destinations. Instead of looking for the train heading to Angle Lake folks will have to take the train heading towards Federal Way. At Redmond, at least, it will be consistent.
Overall though, the system is fairly simple. There are no transfers. You really don’t need to know the lines (you can differentiate by destination). In contrast you couldn’t do that in New York. Nor could you do that with our bus system.
In my fantasy world the lines would be referred to as “Link 1” and “Link 2,” to match the overall branding of the system.
In my fantasy world, they’re the A Line and B Line.
What would the RapidRide lines be called?
@Brent, fair point! So start from the other end of the alphabet: Z line, Y line, X line… If we ever have enough Rapid Ride and Link to cause confusion, we can celebrate.
I’m in London right now and I must be honest, I love the purely British line names they use(Piccadilly, Elizabeth, Bakerloo etc.)
I always thought it would be cool if Seattle used regional specific names or even native/indian names.
Here’s a 2017 proposal a contributor suggested doing exactly that:
https://seattletransitblog.com/2017/08/03/integrated-labeling-scheme-for-link/
It’s LA lingo, like “the I-5”. Illiterate.
They don’t say “the I-5.” They just say “the 5”.
The exaxt opposite of how folks in SF and Seattle refer to their freeways:)
Yes; saying just “Line 1” is parallel to saying only “I-5”.
And so is the line….. Perhaps a little too closely in many places.
Here’s the first draft of my Parks near frequent transit list. I’m aiming for something I can use when I want to go for a walk and don’t want to deal with 30-60 minute buses, and hopefully it will be useful for others too. The grouping is somewhat inconsistent; I want to go most-to-least frequent but at the same time I sometimes want nearby parks together or to mention a worthwhile one on an infrequent route, and those are mutually exclusive. Still, it’s something for now.
Does anyone have any parks to recommend, corrections, or ideas about grouping?
It’s a great idea! Thanks for spearheading the effort!
I think there are many other good parks that can be added. Marymoor Park and Judkins Park with adjacent trails are notable to add. But there are many others — like there are boulevards or parks with sidewalk trails connecting both Columbia City (rowing center) and Mt Baker (sunbathing beach) stations to Lake Washington. And Chief Sealth Trail almost crosses at Rainier Beach station.
The tough thing about parks are that different parks have different functions. Cities don’t want people walking across public golf courses for example. Some parks are also not suitable to walk through and are more like nature reserves. Some are targeted as playfields rather than for hiking.
Cities may also have great trails or paths that aren’t contained in large parks and may even follow a boulevard for a bit — like using Ravenna Blvd between Roosevelt and Green Lake on your list. And our renewed waterfront is worth mentioning too as a great walking excursion reachable via Link.
Maybe a better approach is to promote walking/ hiking paths from different stations or stops? It’s your labor of love putting the list together so do what speaks to you. Of course, ST and Metro have staff that should be managing and publishing such lists in concert with municipal parks departments!
ST has a list of theaters near stations under LifeSTyle. I would have thought the list of bikeways and dedicated bike paths near stations would have been compiled first.
Thanks; I copied your comments to the end of the document for reference. This is more for choosing an individual destination rather than multi-park tours. One park might be on multiple tours, and a tour assumes a long fixed amount of time. I’m looking for something for shorter, more spontaneous trips. “I have an hour or two, where can I go?” Or, “I haven’t been to Mercer Island recently, where’s someplace I can go?” Those are the kinds of trips where frequency matters the most. If you’re going to spend several hours walking between several parks. then the bus frequency is less significant because it’s a smaller portion of the total trip.
Even though the 554 is every 20 minutes I’ll toss this one into your in basket.
file:///var/mobile/Library/SMS/Attachments/e0/00/1EC85CCD-106E-4A64-8444-7598C3227065/Issaquah-Trails-Map-202108041607087155.pdf
The 554 stop in downtown Issaquah provides access to some nice parks in town and with a short walk along Sunset gives access to the Tiger Mountain Trail system good for both long and short walks/hikes. Harvey Manning predicted this Bus to the Trail link back in the 70’s with his description of Wilderness on the Metro 210 in his first trail guide for the Issaquah Alps.
Also the Metro 271 provides access to Lake Sammamish State Park main entrance with the ability to loop back to the 554 by trail and paved path (the East Lake Sammamish Trail). The ELST also will provide the cyclist with a nice route to the Line 2 stations at Marymoor and Redmond Downtown.
Harvey Manning predicted this Bus to the Trail link back in the 70’s with his description of Wilderness on the Metro 210 in his first trail guide for the Issaquah Alps.
That was in the original Footsore series (put out by the Mountaineers). They had a subtitle of “Walks and Hikes around Puget Sound”. It was classic Manning and Spring. Then they dropped the “Footsore” and just titled the books “Walks & Hikes in the Foothills and Lowlands around Puget Sound”. At this point Bob and Ira Spring provided the photos, but Harvey and Penny Manning did all the writing. More recently there is a series called “Urban Trails (https://www.mountaineers.org/books/books/urban-trails-eastside-bellevue-issaquah-alps-redmond-snoqualmie-valley) written by Craig Romano. I don’t have any of the more recent books (I should get them) but it looks like they have transit directions, just like the old books.
I like the organization and grouping.
You can add Lake Ballinger Park to the Mountlake Terrace station section. Less than 15 minute walk to the fishing pier.
Wright Park on the 12-minute T line, lawn bowling, splash park, Conservatory, Algae pond. Comparable to Volunteer. Pierce County’s only frequent transit. A few smaller parks on the line that I wouldn’t recommend to anyone outside the neighborhood.
Tacoma is in the Seattle MSA, though I don’t personally consider it metro Seattle.
Mercerdale park on Mercer Island has an trail network on the mountain behind it, a skate park and great playground. According to Google maps it’s a 15 minutes walk from Mercer Island P&R but I regularly do it in 10. Across the street is an amazing pizza place too. Highly suggest checking it out.
Sounder had a very rare special Seattle-focused round trip train last night for a big country music concert at the Tacoma Dome (Zac Bryan). Left King Street Station at 4:45pm, then making all stops and arriving at Tacoma Dome about an hour later, then returned leaving Tacoma Dome at 11:15 (although left late about 10-15 mins later, assuming due to crowds still pouring onboard) arriving back at KSS around 12:30am. We rode it last night as it was a great opportunity to visit the McMenamins Elk Lodge for many hours. The Tacoma Link line was providing more frequent service in the Downtown to Dome portion of the line. Both the Sounder Train and Tacoma Link were heavily used, restaurants in Downtown Tacoma were packed with many parking in Downtown and eating Downtown then riding Tacoma Link to and from the Dome. Lots of couples and groups of friends in cowboy hats and boots.
How often was the T Line running?
Every 12 mins all Saturday night
It was also running until midnight, making it actually usable for those hitting the town. It’s usual 10pm shutdown is inane, given the capital investment.
Unless ST is directly hiring the Tac/homa streetcar operators, PT is operating the route. They are very much running austerity schedules, including begging ST to reduce service on some ST Express lines. We’ll see if their change in party control rights the ship.
But even with full staffing, 12-minute headway might really be the limit, sans expensive street fixes.
It is my understanding that it’s a completely different pool of operators than the PT buses. I’m not sure who is actually hiring them. Or more importantly, who is paying for operations.
ST directly employs the T Line operators. It’s the only service that ST operates directly.
I thought that was the case.
There really is absolutely no excuse for the shorter hours, then. Cancel one of the dozen hundred million dollar parking structures, and fund expanded hours in perpetuity.
They are basically saying “This Line Just for Tourists” and only tourists who don’t like to get a drink after dinner and be able to get back to their hotel.
They are probably getting a push for this enhanced service from the mayor and downtown business community. The businesses in Downtown Tacoma were doing great business Saturday night. It would also look really bad to have all that foot traffic and need for transit and have it closed or unusable. Then there’s the political aspect, gaining support from riders on the T line from Pierce County and with businesses downtown, Tacoma is not a strong transit market but events like this help to show its utility and serve a need where transit can help greatly (downtown circulator). I was impressed with the whole operation around this event with special Sounder and T Line enhanced service. Who knew a country music concert would do it!
Major work on I-5 to begin next year between downtown and Northgate. The good news: Link exists as an alternative; the bad news: we won’t have 5 minute frequency until the full 2-line opens.
To be more specific, it’s probably when the full 2 Line begins simulation. That’s several weeks before it officially opens.
ST should operate in-service segments between Lynnwood and ID, and between South Bellevue and Downtown Redmond during simulation — and merely kick riders off of trains between the ID and South Bellevue. That’s how ST has done all prior simulations — except this time it’s in the middle rather than at one end.
They’ll need to hustle to kick everyone off the eastbound trains at IDC/S. My money says they do not let passengers board the 2 Line test trains southbound on the 1 Line path because passengers refusing to depart will take more than 4 minutes to deal with.
Run “2 Line” trains from Lynnwood to OMF central during that time, kicking everyone off at SoDo. OMF Central is a really easy turn around, as they don’t even need to swap ends or interfere with trains on the opposite track.
Doesn’t that defeat the purpose of full simulated service across the bridge for the 2 Line?
No. They won’t start doing full simulated service over the lane until later in the year, based on what I’ve seen.
If they do start doing simulated services earlier, then so much the better, and then they will be able to do it that way.
1) Full simulated service means running trains on the new tracks between ID/CS and South Bellevue, at the very least.
2) Running the full simulated service does not necessarily mean every day, all the way up to opening day. We saw days of the outgoing service pattern interspersed with days of running the trains to Lynnwood in the run-up to the last opening.
3) There are multiple reasons not to run the eastbound trains from Lynnwood in revenue service. One is that they are scheduled to be at South Bellevue at a certain time. One non-responsive sleeper on the train will blow that schedule.
Another is that the extra capacity is not needed yet at the peak of AM peak. If it is, then just a few peak of the AM peak test trains could run in revenue service to ID/CS.
This. There’s even a pad for changing operators on the outer loop.
“Another is that the extra capacity is not needed yet at the peak of AM peak.”
Brent: I’m not sure you can say that under the I-5 construction impacts being discussed here.
“
In 2025, there will be three full weekend closures of northbound I-5 from SR 520 to Northeast 45th Street.”
https://komonews.com/news/local/9-months-of-i5-lane-reductions-begin-2026-next-part-rehabilitation-project-revive-washington-state-department-of-transportation-sr-520-denny-way-work-zone-traffic
Sound like fun if Link doesn’t have extra capacity.
There is no need to do full-schedule testing on weekends. Just run the extra service, as ST has done many times, including on Taylor Swift weekend.
The public hearing for the reduction of ST Express regular fares from $3.25 to $3 is next Thursday, December 5, 9:00 am. However, the Board’s Rider Experience & Operations Committee does not meet until 1 pm.
I’m not expecting anyone to try and talk them out of lowering the fare, but it might seem disconcerting to some of the organizational heads who will speak for it to talk to a nearly empty dais. It also does not look good to just have the usually antis there checking the opposed box, and then ranting off-topic until they use non-permitted words. Making the supportive leaders show up a second time just to cancel out the usual cranks seems inefficient. The committee members look better being at both, but they all have day jobs to attend to.
Can we get an infill station at Bellevue Square once Mr. Freeman passes? He is in his 80s.
“Freeman” [Ed: Corrected]
Probably not. The train would have to be re-routed, and that is a very expensive. It is like First Hill. Of course it would be a worthy station, but there are no plans for rebuilding that section. Infill stations are typically not added unless they planned for the possibility of adding them initially. There are exceptions, but they are usually really big transit systems (e. g. London).
The train alignment doesnt travel on Bellevue way, there’s nowhere to infill that is closer to Bellevue square mall.
At best perhaps could have pedestrian timed signals on 6th Ave aka the Bellevue “grand connection” from Bellevue square mall to the link station.
or build a people mover or gondola along 6th Ave to connect Bellevue Sq (and the Downtown Park) with the Link station or even to Eastrail. Might be cheaper than a lid over I-405.
Have the 4 line stop there.
Jeff then you have to branch in the tunnel. It’s cut and cover, so it’s a much easier engineering challenge than adding a diversion to a TBM tunnel. But it’s still not cheap, AND if the diversion is to and from the south, the Line 4 trains would no longer serve Wilburton or Bellevue Center City. The only station in common with Line 2 would be East Main.
@tom
it was done through SEM (sequential excavation method) not cut and cover.
In any case even if they were to cut and cover now, I have no idea how it would work or where they would dig it to connect with the existing line.
@Martin Pagel,
“ or build a people mover or gondola along 6th Ave”
Na, just implement a short shuttle system using Waymo autonomous vehicles similar to what they currently use in San Fransisco.
A people mover type system using Waymo autonomous vehicles should be cheaper to implement than a gondola, would directly serve more destinations than a gondola, and would be able to better match delivered capacity to demand than a gondola.
And a shuttle/people mover type system based on Waymo autonomous vehicles is more in line with the Eastsides’s vision for future transportation. They have proposed systems like this before.
This does seem like a good use case for a high frequency, driverless minibus/shuttle service. In general, we need to move in that direction as a region, since the bus operator shortage is likely never being fully solved. I would envision it doing a loop like: East Main station – City Center station – Library (10th ST) – Hyatt convention center – Mall – City Park – Old Main Street. This routing should avoid most of the freeway traffic on 8th and 4th, though you would want to give it signal priority.
WL, so the builders essentially “mined” it without disturbing the streetscape? I never went over to see it under construction, so I didn’t know that. That’s great.
But it ends up with a box-tunnel essentially identical to a c&c tunnel, probably with a centerline supporting wall, right? So adding a junction would mean it would have to go out of service for at least a few weeks in order to ahore up the bearing-wall piercings, but it’s the same level of complexity as a cut and cover box tunnel.
IOW, it could be done, but it would cost plenty. And for what? A subway to a mall?
@Tom Terrific,
No, the Bellevue tunnel was a single SEM excavation with a doomed roof. The center dividing wall was added after the excavation was completed.
https://ibb.co/M51k6pF
see my image proposal here.
@Lazarus,
Have you seen the gridlock those Waymo taxis have generated in S.F.? When one breaks down and somehow gets disoriented, sometimes no even emergency vehicles can get through until Waymo sends out a driver. And most of them have a single passenger while a gondola cabin can fit 10 people. Taxis get stuck in traffic like any other car which is a serious issue in Bellevue. Even buses get stuck as Bellevue has no BAT lanes. Gondolas just fly above the traffic.
@JeffB,
Great idea, but challenging to change the plans at this point.
Where do you envision the 4 Line to stop by the Bellevue TC? The 2 Line station is further east than your line…
How far would you envision the tunnel to get extended?
@Jeff — I could see that, but slightly different than what you have drawn. Basically branch a little bit north of South Bellevue Station. At that point head over to Bellevue Way and basically follow Bellevue Way the whole way to Kirkland. For stations I’m thinking Main, NE 4th, NE 8th, NE 12th, NE 24th and then South Kirkland. So urban stop spacing in the urban area (downtown) and more spread out outside. It is tempting to squeeze in more stops, but the grid is problematic (a lot of cross streets don’t go through). I would expect much of it would be on the surface (although elevated would be better to avoid traffic). Cut and cover might work through downtown as well (all options would have to be explored).
4 Line should also stop at S Bellevue Station. If someone is going from Issaquah to Seattle, it doesn’t make sense to have them go north to DT Bellevue just to go south back to i90.
@Martin Pagel,
“ those Waymo taxis”
This wouldn’t be a full Waymo taxi system. It would be a Waymo shuttle system with fewer destination options and a limited number of fixed routes. As such it would have much higher reliability and be much easier to fine tune to the needs of the community.
And it is very much in-line with what various Eastside communities have already proposed. That is a good thing that should lead to early adoption.
I don’t see a downside. And such a system would certainly make a good pilot project.
And again, cheaper, more adaptable, more destinations, and better matching of capacity to demand than for a gondola system. I think it should be pursued, at least as a pilot project.
I guess while an article about self driving cars itself is a bit outside the scope of the blog, perhaps we could have an article about limited forms of self driving as shuttles/limited to hov or freeway lanes in the Seattle area and what routes would be most likely in the near term
@WL,
These wouldn’t be self driving taxis, but rather self driving shuttles or vans. The technology would be the same as what Waymo is currently using, but the application would be 100% transit. Or at least 100% micro-transit.
Of course it would still be possible to use actual Waymo taxis if the local governments so desired. There are lots of options.
It’s only about 1900 ft between the Bellevue Sq mall entrance and the Link entrance , right? The parking garages are 600 feet from that spot!
Rather the incur the expensive of running trains, I’d suggest a series of moving walkways and escalators . Today it still is reasonably pleasant and many people seem to walk.
And if ST had built the Bellevue Downtown station to have a pedestrian passage to the Transit Center the outdoor distance would be shorter.
Finally, the tall hotels and such are east of Bellevue Way and closer to the station.
The easiest transit thing to do would be to extend RapidRide B. Metro has a hard time turning buses around in Downtown anyway as well as idling those those buses for driver breaks and getting back on schedule so maybe some nearby site could be found.
Instead of moving the Bellevue Downtown Link station, the city could encourage more diverse land uses around the station. Bellevue Way is retail and restaurant dominated and gets visitors all day every day. The area around the Link station is office-dominated and the restaurants often close at 3pm. That gives it a more 9-to-5 demand, and that has been diminishing with work-from-home. So encourage more retail in the immediate station area, extending the retail district from Bellevue Way. Then more people will be walking to it at more hours.
And figure out a plan to add a down escalator to the station.
They are opening up another shopping mall by the station known as The Bellevue Connection.
Where?
“ And figure out a plan to add a down escalator to the station.”
I strongly believe that every new ST station should have at least 3 escalators ultimately possible for every platform that requires a vertical change and is forecasted to have more than 5 K daily boardings using an entrance. Even if it’s not in a base budget the design should always have this potential to add escalators later.
The ST process is set up to remove vertical devices at the very end of final design for “value” engineering like it’s a last minute decision at the checkout cash register to leave it behind — except the public can’t go back and buy it later. It seems like a fundamental process flaw — and often it happens with no public input or a request for local cities to provide more funds to keep the device in the plans. It’s really glaring at Lynnwood City Center where there is no escalator from the platform to the very important and busy bus transfer area and a rider must walk down 65 steps (a number similar to walking from floor 5 to 1 in an office building).
Without a deliberate area reserved for an additional escalator it’s always going to be doubtful if it can be added later. In this station’s case, the only way to do it is to redesign the entire station by pushing outward.
also why does Kemper allow Kcm to have a spot with bus schedules near the enterance?
Because buses are smaller than trains and have rubber tires that run in car lanes, so they’re not as disruptive or as different from cars. He supports BRT when rail is proposed. Whether he supports BRT otherwise I don’t know. But he and a former Metro general manager told an Eastside transportation forum in the late 2010s that the only transportation problem is peak-hour congestion, and their solution to that is vanpools/carpools. Not buses or trains, but vanpools/carpools. They dismissed the idea of poor people needing buses off-peak, saying everybody could get a car or find a car to use or ride.
That Metro general manager was in office in the 1980s, and is one of the reasons Metro’s network was so skeletal then. He and people like him thought a few long slow milk runs were all that’s needed, and was more excited about P&Rs and peak expresses to downtown, and vanpools of course.
My mom worked at Boeing then and took a Metro express from Bellevue to the Renton plant. She took the 226 from east Bellevue and transferred at Bellevue TC, or maybe she was already living on Bellevue Way by then and could take it directly (from SE 3rd) or take the 235 (from NE 17th) to it. At one point the express was truncated at the Wilburton P&R so it no longer served downtown Bellevue. Several people on the route complained that they didn’t have a car and couldn’t get to the P&R. My mom called Metro to complain and ask to restore the gap. She couldn’t believe the answer: “Well, you’ll have to get a car and drive it to the P&R to take the bus.” She’s still complaining about it decades later. It’s not like she was asking to restore a low-density tail: she was asking to restore the highest-density part and the only transfer point with other Bellevue routes.
Is there a way to include an image in my blog post of what I’m propsing?
Not that I know of.
I’ve seen one poster here imbed images in the past. I’ve tried using my rudimentary HTML skills that have worked other places, but they don’t appear to work on WordPress. Not sure why.
I can attest that Shinjuku really is that crazy. Without our 14 year old Tokyo native as guide, I am pretty sure I’d still be lost there. His mother wouldn’t even attempt it without him.
Also, pro-tip. If you don’t want to be thought of as a rude, idiot American, don’t wear your backpack on your back. Where it on your front.
I learned that lesson the hard way many years ago (or at least someone else learned the lesson). I got on the bus with a frame backpack and whacked some guy. I felt terrible. Ever sense then I would take my backpack off (even a soft one) when getting on a bus. I would typically hold it one hand and pay with the other. If I ended up standing then I would lower it to my feet (where it took up less room). Wearing it on front is a good option in that at least you can tell if you are going to bump someone.
I used to live a 2-minute walk from Shinjuku Station. It was nice to be a one-seat ride away from almost anywhere in the Tokyo area.
But I rarely needed to use the train, because there was so much stuff within walking distance. I could find just about anything I ever needed within a 10 minute walk. That’s the thing about great transit cities – they are great walking cities first and foremost.
People that live their whole lives driving everywhere usually misunderstand this, and imagine that in a city with good transit, all the trips they make by car would be replaced with trips by train. Not so! Most car trips would be replaced by walking. Trains merely connect walkable areas to each other.
The other nice thing about living in Shinjuku… it was $300 a month. The cheapest I ever managed in Seattle (back in 2000) was $400.
Yeah, Japan lodging was shockingly cheap. The miracle of a near absence of zoning.
People that live their whole lives driving everywhere usually misunderstand this, and imagine that in a city with good transit, all the trips they make by car would be replaced with trips by train. Not so! Most car trips would be replaced by walking. Trains merely connect walkable areas to each other.
Yes, and this was the case throughout history. There were exceptions (e. g. Mongolia) but before the train, most people got around by foot. Unless you were wealthy you lived in a village and rode a carriage (or boat) only when you went to some other village.
Even trains didn’t change the way most people lived their day-to-day lives. It is just that when they did make that rare trip (a long ways over land) the trip was dramatically better. Streetcars and subways made a difference, but most people still walked for most of their trips. It is why streetcar suburbs look like little towns, not typical American suburbs. Of course they have shops everywhere — they need to. The streetcar only went so far (and so fast). People still had to walk to do their normal activities.
The automobile really changed things, especially in this country (as well as Canada and Australia). But especially in the US we embraced the automobile and the idea that we could get everywhere with it. The idea of driving every single day (to work, to school, to get groceries or even visit friends) became common place. Thus evolved the car-dependent neighborhood. You could maybe borrow a cup of sugar from your neighbor or get home delivery of milk, but if you wanted to buy groceries you drove.
Why do Shoreline’s two Link stations have so fewer boardings than Mountlake Terrace?
My guess is that simply that the park and ride catchment areas are smaller — and there currently is less residential density and activity around those stations than the two in Snohomish County. Given parking complaints at Lynnwood CC i think some will start driving a bit further to find a space. It would help those parking riders if there was a realtime sign on I-5 telling drivers how full the four garages are.
Also, I believe 145th is still closed west of I-5 as is 5th Ave NE south of 145th due to interchange construction. I expect Shoreline South to add boardings when the construction is finished and again when Stride 3 opens.
Did the new apartments at Shoreline North open yet? That will add some riders. Don’t forget that Swift blue riders didn’t get to Shoreline North until mid-September so that will also add riders in October data. Otherwise that station has a less rosy ridership increase outlook in the near term.
Regardless, it is noteworthy. I wouldn’t panic just yet, and the full 2 Line opening will help add riders in 2026 by offering better frequency and less crowding — and a one-seat ride to the Eastside (albeit a tad circuitous) that will add more riders.
The early low volume data really casts doubt on the ridership potential of Pinehurst/ 130th when it opens. ST’s forecasts for the station were always low — and the models they use are now appearing to be right.
There are no neighborhoods in Shoreline with a density anywhere those of Bitter Lake and Lake City. Pinehurst/130th will be the closest (and for Bitter Lake only) station on Link to the neighborhoods. Metro needs to link Lake City in a way that includes the strip north and south of 125th along Lake City Way to get the best use of the new station. For riders south of 125th, Roosevelt or Northgate will be better for many trips, but it’s essential that the fifteen blocks to the north of 125th be directly served by a one-seat bus to Pinehurst. I don’t think Metro has that in its plans.
It would also be nice if areas east/SE of Lake City had service to the new station, but the 75 will apparently continue on its route on 125th rather than continuing on Roosevelt to the station then turning south. Added to that is the fact the first SB stop after the bus turns onto 5th is at 123rd rather than at 125th, meaning in effect there’s no point in transferring there at all. The 75 holds the distinction of not actually serving either UW station or 130th but – at least in the case of 130th – forcing riders to continue to Northgate station instead, losing 7-8 minutes each way. At the very least the northernmost stops on 5th should be moved to as close to 125th as possible, rather than where they are currently located.
Yes, the 75 should be sent to the station when it opens. They originally had the 65 sent to the station (https://web.archive.org/web/20230111042925/https://kingcounty.gov/~/media/depts/metro/programs-projects/link-connections/lynnwood-link/pdf/routes/route65.pdf). That would work too. But with the 65 sent up to 145th it makes sense to send the 75 to the station (and continue to Bitter Lake). Lake City has density in every direction. The east end of 125th has plenty of people (it has a lot of new development) and the 75 serves them well. The 75 also manages to go through Lake City without making any turns. If the 75 was sent to Bitter Lake it wouldn’t make any turns from the U-Village to Greenwood Avenue. While this 75 route is not straight, it is straightforward enough to work for a lot of trips. For example Bitter Lake to Sand Point and Bitter Lake to U-Village are both good. Even Bitter Lake to the east side of campus is reasonable (you avoid making two transfers or walking a long ways through campus).
In comparison the 77 awkwardly connects two routes. The route is essentially a hairpin turn. Northbound the bus does not make a simple left turn, but instead has to make two left turns and then a right. The route curves around enough that you could probably get off the bus, walk a few block and get right back on it if you wanted to. It would serve several big neighborhoods, but many of the connections just wouldn’t make sense. Bitter Lake to Roosevelt, for example, would be better off via Link (as a simple transfer at 130th).
The drawback to having the 75 go to Bitter Lake is that it requires a bigger restructure. You need to backfill service on 5th between Northgate way and 130th. There are a number of possibilities, but this complicates things. Hopefully Metro is willing to shuffle the routes in the area, given the less then stellar ridership of them since the restructure (so far). Here is a pretty simple option though:
1) Send the 75 to Shoreline Community College.
2) Create a new bus like this: https://maps.app.goo.gl/MAvnCG2wiWMTX2CQ6 (Northgate/5th NE/Bitter Lake).
3) Send the 5 to Lake City.
4) Run the 77 to Lake City Way to the U-District.
From the station you would have three buses to Bitter Lake and two buses to Lake City. Bitter Lake would be connected to 5th NE and that end of Northgate. A handful of people would have to transfer but with two buses (the 5 and 75) running from Lake City to 130th Station it wouldn’t be bad.
It is worth noting that the intersection next to the station is a bit awkward. It still isn’t clear to me that 5th will be open southbound between 125th and 130th. It may continue to be one way northbound. If that is the case it can’t be easily served in every direction. For example:
1) Lake City to Bitter Lake — Excellent
2) Northgate to Shoreline via 5th NE — Just fine going north. A bus would head up 5th NE then take a left over the freeway. Southbound it would mean a slight detour (assuming 5th remains one way between ). The bus would east and then south on Roosevelt to 125th. Then it would take a left and head back to 5th, where it would take another left and head towards Northgate.
3) Current routing of the 75 — From Northgate the bus could turn right at 130th (assuming this is physically possible). Going the other direction (from Lake City heading to Northgate) the bus could take a right at 130th onto 5th and go into the station area. It would then use the little bus loop and head back south. It would then take a left and follow the pathway described above. This is less than ideal, obviously, as you essentially throw away the inherit advantage of the station (ease of bus connections). This is the only way that serving the station becomes awkward — it would be pathetic if it is one of the ways Metro serves it.
If the 75 continued to go to Northgate, then we need something like the 77. But it should be split from the other half of the 77. Both buses should use the Lake City Fred Meyer layover.
Regardless of which bus goes between Lake City and Bitter Lake, the bus should continue past Bitter Lake and end at Shoreline College. The 5 should then be rerouted to serve Lake City. This would increase frequency along the corridor, while creating a lot more useful one-seat rides.
There are some good ideas in there, Ross (no surprise) – I also agree that the 75 should be re-routed to Bitter Lake or another terminal in that area, whether it be Shoreline College or another demand center. A few other points:
– The 65 is actually a reasonable option today to get to Link from, say, Meadowbrook/Nathan Hale (110th) – it’s 12 minutes to Shoreline South Station and while that seems a bit counterintuitive if you’re headed south, it’s of course just one station from Northgate. The 65 does not serve anything along Sand Point Way adequately – where it’s close there’s a quite a hill between SPW and NE 35th, and as you get further south the distance between the 65 and the 75 increases dramatically (and by the time you get to Sand Point itself you’d either take the 62 to Roosevelt Station or stay on the 75 and make the walk to UW Station from campus). That said, it takes 10-12 minutes to *drive* from Meadowbrook to Northgate Station, so the bus taking the same time to Shoreline South isn’t a bad deal at all.
– NE 5th has very little other than single-family homes along it north of the Northgate Way area, and even there much of it is only on the east side due to the freeway and Link. It is a rare occasion indeed to ever stop at one of the bus stops along there. 75-level service isn’t needed for that stretch if rerouting it makes more sense.
– One of the lane layouts I’ve seen at 5th/130th shows *no* southbound lanes but 2 left-turn lanes northbound – there is literally no traffic demand that would necessitate that. Make one of those lanes southbound, even if it’s just bus-only, if the desire is still to keep the 75 on 5th. The I-5 off-ramp there is more of an issue but could have a bus signal for the every 10-15 minutes a bus might go through – the ramp already has a stop sign which has sufficed since the freeway opened, so even that probably isn’t necessary. If the 75 stayed on 5th but to 130th instead of 125th, there’s already a curved turn lane there northbound to the east, cutting the sharp corner.
– Moving the 75 to Roosevelt has no negative affect to riders in that area from its current routing on 125th – there’s one stop westbound on 125th that would be about the same distance to most riders if it were relocated across Roosevelt to the north (the angled streets make that a narrow block there). There are NO stops on 125th eastbound, so no loss of service there. As far as direct Lake City – Northgate service goes, the 61 already covers that. Pinehurst (at 125th) would lose direct service to the former mall area without some tweaking, although much of the business area at Northgate has shifted east towards Roosevelt Way and the 348. People in that area of Pinehurst going to Link would, of course, just take the bus on 125th/130th.
With the only loss of service from rerouting the 75 to serve Pinehurst/130th Station occurring on an extremely low density (and fairly short) stretch of 5th NE – and that assuming no other service could be provided there – it seems to be an option well worth further exploration. It in effect would give all of NE Seattle a direct connection to Link at a fairly substantial time saving for many over today’s service.
Another expensive return-to-office car commute. ($) This person is going from Spanaway to Bellevue, a two-hour drive each way. She had originally moved from Seattle when she couldn’t find a place she could afford to live in, and a relative had a spare house in Spanaway.
“On gas alone, Poe was spending nearly $500 a month. Depending on how backed up her normal commute was, she sometimes opted to pay a $15 toll each way to take a faster route. On average, that added $300 a month or more, she estimates. The costs compounded quickly, eating into her annual income of $75,000. Less tangible was the depreciation of her car. Each day, she would put another 100 miles on it. In three months, she had to get two oil changes.”
“Poe’s arrangement of commuting to Bellevue from Spanaway lasted about three months. In mid-October, she moved back to the Seattle metro area, finding a dog-friendly apartment in Redmond for about $2,400 a month, which includes $150 a month in pet rent.To afford it, she scaled back retirement contributions. It wasn’t a choice she wanted to make so much as one she had to. Spending four hours a day in a car was giving her back pain. She would call her mom on her drives and break down crying. Something had to give. Despite the costs, moving closer to work has transformed her life for the better. She goes on walks in the morning and evening, does yoga and sees her son and friends regularly. “My time is back,” she said. “Yes, I’m paying high rent. But that cost is better, I think, than the human cost of my mental health.””
The article has a few other profiles in different situations.
I was going to post a comment lamenting the express bus system in Pierce County when I realized that this commuter could have tried several transit options to help her situation. She has a car so she could drive to a number of park and ride locations — with free parking (noting Downtown Bellevue has expensive parking). There are both Sounder (Lakewood, Puyallup) and ST Express services (Tacoma Dome, Federal Way, Kent) available and they are decently convenient. And these services have been available for many years now.
I meet people who won’t even consider transit as an option — and yet lament how much they pay and how long it takes to drive. They like to be a victim rather than explore obvious choices with transit that are available to them. I’m kind of over the whining before looking into transit options!
The Times isn’t helping:
“Benneth Sison, 27, is a structural engineer living in downtown Seattle and working in Lynnwood. He started his current job in May. In August, the company instituted a full workweek return-to-office requirement.
Because of congestion, Sison spends between an hour and 40 minutes to two hours each day on the road, or up to 10 hours a week. Gas runs him $100 a week. With the recent opening of the light rail stop in Lynnwood, Sison could hypothetically take transit most of the way. But his office is a 30-minute uphill walk from the station.” (emphasis added)
Mr. Sison could hypothetically take a bus from the Lynnwood station to his office, which would probably only take a few more minutes to go the ~1.5 miles. But the Seattle Times suggests the only transit available is the train.
Yeah, but Spanaway to Bellevue is bound to be a very long trip, no matter how you do it. Without traffic it takes about an hour (driving). There would never be direct service (that would be excessive given the number of people taking that trip). That means a transfer. So already you are talking about driving to a park and ride, taking a bus (or train) then taking another bus (or train). It is highly unlikely the transfer would be short and easy. Keep in mind, this is to get from the transit stop in Spanaway to a transit stop in Bellevue. It is quite possible the destination is a ways away from where the bus/train would let you off in Bellevue. It is bound to take well over an hour each way. That is a gruesome commute for most people. She did the sensible thing and moved closer.
Did she consider transit when it came time to picking a place? Maybe, but probably not. This gets to your point.
Depending on where the office is, it may or may not be on a bus route or the bus may be hourly.
Let’s guess, what is uphill from Lynnwood City Center station? I thought that whole area was flat, except for a dip south on 44th. Maybe they eirk at that office building by the hotel that starts with E. That used to be Boring offices all alone, and my mom used to work there too (and had a special bus to Overlake Village P&R).
@Nathan. Yeah, it is quite possible that the area where the guy works is well served by a bus. Just in searching for engineering firms within a couple miles of the station it looks like they are all on bus lines (or a fairly close to them).
@Mike. Yeah, I think of the area as flat. But if you go northeast you can gain some elevation (https://maps.app.goo.gl/cRhq5RVbSdCMWsiN8). But there is also nothing there. If you walk to Alderwood you do gain elevation (but gradually — https://maps.app.goo.gl/vvWKE7ZkWn8Y7iS96). It is quite possible that is where he works (there are a number of engineering firms in the area). But that is also where the Orange Line (and a few other buses) run (which gets back to Nathan’s point).
If it’s uphill one way it’s downhill the other.
And besides buses there are bicycle, scooter and Lyft/ Uber options. There may be an office shuttle van or a coworker ride also available.
I also think the person commuting from Downtown Seattle to Lynnwood (if that is indeed their commute) may not be very creative in their commuting. For example you can get a folding electric bike. These can be heavy, but this one isn’t too bad (30 pounds). Just carry it onto Link every day. But there are other alternatives if that is too cumbersome.
1) Buy a regular electric bike and add a bike rack for the car.
2) Every Monday drive to work in Lynnwood with your bike on the back.
4) After work, drive by the transit center and find a bike locker that is available. Put your bike in there.
5) Tuesday through Thursday ride Link and your bike to work.
6) On Friday pick up your bike.
That is not ideal — you are still driving twice a week — but that is still a lot better than driving every day. Renting the bike locker doesn’t cost a fortune either. It is 5 cents an hour, so about $5 a week.
Another option is to find a parking garage up north and just keep a car there. From what I can tell though, there are no parking garages close to any of the stations north of Northgate. So that would mean taking transit to Northgate and then getting to the garage and driving from there.
Reverse commuting can be a real pain. But quite often there are options that are worth exploring (especially since electric bikes have become so affordable).
Perhaps the term “car-brain” is too pejorative, but the Seattle Times article really exemplifies it.
Good point Al. Carpooling is a great option, especially if you can meet people half way. It is quite possible that one of his co-workers drives right by the station, or at least fairly close to it. For example, imagine someone else does this commute: https://maps.app.goo.gl/FWtw7nMjgeZExrL19. As driving goes, that is a great commute. Meanwhile, the person coming from Seattle is looking at a long (uphill) walk to work: (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Q5nKKwoJQbAz98d9A). But the person taking Link can just walk over to 44th (about a five minute walk — https://maps.app.goo.gl/Yc3u7pKzJdf2BVM56). That makes the pickup trivial (I would actually meet them in the parking lot for the 76 station — https://maps.app.goo.gl/7LEmQiAHAnx8K6DW9 — that way you don’t have to worry about blocking traffic.) The guy commuting from Seattle would see his insurance rates plummet (he isn’t regularly driving to work). The guy could pay the other guy $50 a month and come out way ahead. If the other guy refuses than just buy him lunch every so often.
I know it’s not an option for everyone, but living near where you work, or at least living on a route with a non-car option (a bike path like the Burke Gilman, train, ferry or as a last resort, even a bus), is often cheaper, even if the baseline mortgage or rent costs aren’t. People just need to take everything into account, including the costs of a car, daycare, and even putting a dollar value on your free time, and the mental and physical toll of a long commute. Those doctors and therapy bills aren’t cheap either.
Renting a 2 bedroom in Seattle is around $3000, whereas Tacoma is $2000, and a place like Spanaway is probably closer to $1500.
But that “saved” $1000 gets eaten up and then some, if people are honest with themselves about how much a car costs to own, gas up and maintain.
If the cost of gas is a concern, there is always the option to go electric. It doesn’t make the commute any faster or do anything about tolls, but it does cut that $500/month gas bill by around 75%(*) and require much less maintenance. And, you don’t have to be rich to do it anymore, either – even for the Spanaway-Bellevue commute, there are lots of used EVs on the market with way more range than that for under $15k.
(*) Assuming that the person lives in a house where they can install their own charger without needing to deal with a landlord; a basic level 2 EV charger typically costs around $2,000, including installation labor.
Wait, this guy is 27 years old, and complaining about a 1.5 mile walk?
I just retired and I was doing that walk downtown (albeit a level walk), every workday.
Walking is good for him!
(Unless we’re talking about a disability that restricts the distance he can travel)
Nathan: If they are talking about the office park up the hill on the opposite side of the freeway, the 112 would be the bus connection. It is a half hourly bus, but definitely still doable, and definitely preferable to driving for two hours every day! I would just leave 15 minutes earlier to make sure I can catch the bus, and call an Uber the few times a month that I might still just miss it. On the way back, of course, much easier to catch the bus since it has GPS tracking. Longer term, if Lynnwood really gets built up and wants to redevelop the area, a pedestrian bridge would be useful. If the school bus yard also gets re-developed, you would have a much more direct route than the Interurban Trail. There’s actually quite a bit of land to work with between the transit center and the freeway there.
Walking is good for him!
Yeah, sure, but it more about the time spent walking (in addition to the time spent on transit). It is very common for people (who can) to walk a half hour to work. But it is rare for people to walk a half hour after taking a bus/train. It is quite possible he lives ten minutes from a station. So now you are talking well over an hour each way.
There’s actually quite a bit of land to work with between the transit center and the freeway there.
Much of it is greenbelt though. Scriber Creek and the surrounding wetlands. I think the closest building on the other side (as the crow flies) is this one: https://maps.app.goo.gl/u7smB5iMaBdU6TVq7. Even with a bridge that would still be a ways. You also have the street-grid problem. For example consider the street just south of that building (205th Place SW). Even if that got developed the people closest have the farthest walk (https://maps.app.goo.gl/v8jtE62M3kR1HwQ59).
If you extended the HOV lane bridge you could more easily reach the Embassy Suites (and surrounding areas). That area has the same basic problem (not much is close to the station, even if it got developed).
If they are talking about the office park up the hill on the opposite side of the freeway, the 112 would be the bus connection.
Yeah, it seems likely that just about any place he would work would have some level of transit. Depending on the job, a half-hour bus is OK. You learn to adjust your schedule around it. You learn which train to catch so that you can get to the bus in time. Going the other way it is even more straightforward (you leave work at a particular time or a half hour later).
It gets to be a problem for shift workers who have nothing to do before or after their shift. Then they spend an average of a half hour each day just waiting (for their shift to start or the bus to get there).
The only hill in the area of Lynnwood Station is 44th Ave. One has to walk underneath I-5 and the hilly grade starts shortly after passing the Embassy Suites. The hill peaks at 212th St. The walk is about 20 minutes. There is half-hourly bus that runs along 44th Ave (the 112) and travels between MLT and LTC. Unfortunately, the “Zip” shuttle does not serve that area.
As I wrote up above you can gain elevation by going north/northeast towards 40th (https://maps.app.goo.gl/gyqqCzemaMnRZHS9A). That is a gain of 130 feet (all uphill) which isn’t nothing. I could see how that would discourage you from taking a regular bike, for example.
But there is nothing there. As you get into the nearby offices at Alderwood, you can avoid the hill by staying low (https://maps.app.goo.gl/8o2Rao3MPHfJCRwA7). That isn’t flat (you gain 95 feet) but it the grade of the old railroad (gentle). But in this case there is frequent bus service there. Regardless of hills, I just don’t see any engineering firm within a half hour walk that isn’t served or well served by transit. Maybe Google doesn’t list them all, but I seriously doubt that is the case.
Just remember that if you already own a car, then a lot of your costs are fixed:
1. Car payment or lease payment (or lost interest/dividends if you raided your savings to pay cash)
2. Insurance.
3. Tabs – and here is where Sound Transit’s tax scheme becomes directly involved. People are paying thru the nose so that ST riders can have 80% of their operating costs and 100% of their capital costs borne by somebody else! The ST taxes are fixed and it doesn’t matter how much or how little you drive.
The only real incremental costs are fuel, some maintenance costs (others are fixed) and possibly parking. So even if your only reason for having that Subaru Outback is to drive to Costco and then do a 300 mile round-trip on weekends to do a 10 mile walk someplace in the mountains, there’s a lot of incentive to use it.
That’s true. Although, the actual impact of the sound transit portion of the car tab is really just a drop in the bucket compared to all the other costs of car ownership. It’s just the part that people like to complain about.
It’s not true. Most of a car’s costs are based on mileage, which is why the IRS offers a dollar-per-mile reimbursement rate (currently ~$0.60/mile) that is largely break-even with real costs.
1. Car value depreciates primarily as a function of mileage, followed by damage. Age is secondary at best, which is why barn cars are so highly valued.
2. Insurance scales with mileage; if you drive less, you pay less, although usually lumped into ~5k-mile buckets.
3. ST’s tax revenues are 63% ($93.728B) of ST’s 30-year financial plan (2017-2046). Of that, the motor vehicle excise tax is 10.4% ($9,753B) of that total (82.8% is the sales tax, which everyone pays). So the car tabs account for about 6% of ST’s total income.
Well, the part about car tabs being a tiny portion of the cost of owning car is true. Actually, it depends on the car. There are various fees that are flat, but there are also fees that are based on the value of the car. Thus it is somewhat progressive in nature.
With an old car you don’t pay that much in tabs, but you are likely to pay a lot in repairs. Insurance depends on what kind of car you drive, but also where you live and whether you drive regularly to work, etc. But unless you own a very expensive cars that basically just sit there then car tabs will not be a high percentage of the cost of a car. If that is the biggest problem you have you live a very charmed life.
Sound Transit did screw up… by
Not using the Kelley Blue Book valuation.
Given the price of used cars now, they could have satisfied the whiners AND been moving things along!
I didn’t realize people were still whining about RTA car tab taxes.
Oh, and all one has to do is check the election results to see the Democrats picked up seats in the Washington legislature.
Nathan: The RTA portion of my car tabs are currently about three months of insurance–full coverage, $500 deductible. It is the cost of a minor repair in the shop. Significant, but not breaking the bank. What hurts is that we pay it all at once instead of gradually throughout the year, so people don’t necessarily budget for it.
“Sound Transit did screw up… by
Not using the Kelley Blue Book valuation.”
They really didn’t, legislators tried to do this a few years ago and their legal consuel pointed out that it would violate state law because Kelly Blue Book is a private entity. Using a private entity like Kelly for calculating taxes would violate state laws on tax calculations and collections.
I honestly think people are making a big hullabaloo over the car tab calculations even though this state has no income tax which honestly evens out the cost of tabs in my view. It’s why I don’t put much value in the bitching about taxes in WA State. Either we collect primarily on income tax or primarily on other taxes, you gotta pick a lane. A lot of people want to have their cake and eat it too on taxes in this regard.
The formula they use is probably quite similar to using the Blue Book. They start with the cost of a car and deprecate each year (https://dol.wa.gov/regional-transit-authority-rta-motor-vehicle-excise-tax-mvet-depreciation-schedule). There are some losers, but there are also some winners. The people who buy cars that deprecate the most are the losers. The cars that deprecate the most tend to be luxury cars. So if you bought a Cadillac (and it is now old) you are paying more than you would if it was based on Blue Book. If you bought a Toyota you are paying less. Hard for me to see this as a big problem.
I know KBB valuations wouldn’t work for ST car tabs. What if instead of the current valuation schedule, they switched to one that was based on gross vehicle weight? This would provide incentives for smaller and lighter vehicles, which are safer for peds and bikes and also less damaging to our roadways than heavy vehicles.
You’re missing my point.
What the car tab whiners were saying was that the schedule Sound Transit uses didn’t reflect the Kelley Blue Book value, which was lower.
What this meant was when covid hit, the used car prices spiked.
Since the schedule is based
on the MSRP, that meant Sound Transit was using a value lower than the KBB value for new vehicles purchased in the years leading up to covid,
Once new car prices rose the schedule more resembles pre-covid. Now that used car prices are coming down, we might be back to the same old whining.
I’m just saying, Sounds Transit could have been ahead of the game if they were pricing like private companies.
What the car tab whiners were saying was that the schedule Sound Transit uses didn’t reflect the Kelley Blue Book value, which was lower.
for some! Not for everyone. If you bought a good, basic car, chances are you the Blue Book on your vehicle is much higher than what ST is giving you credit for. That means you are getting a discount! Go back to the 2010 Corolla. It has reached maximum depreciation according to the state. That means it will be taxed based on 10% of its original MSRP. That is somewhere between 15 and 19 thousand. So basically the state is saying that Corolla is worth less than 2 grand (for tax purposes). Can you buy a 2010 Corolla for 2 grand? No! Not unless it needs repairs. https://www.kbb.com/cars-for-sale/all/2010/toyota/corolla. Thus the state is taxing you less — much less — than they would if they used Blue Book.
Now consider the opposite. Consider this story: https://www.king5.com/article/news/car-tab-confusion-the-math-behind-your-big-bill/281-411571066. The guy bought a Range Rover in 2010, when the MSRP was $76,895. Holy cow, that is a lot of money. You can buy a house in the Midwest for that. Anyway, a few years later, the state deprecates that car at a set amount (48 percent). But it turns out, his car is worth a lot less. Why? Because he bought a luxury car that deprecates quickly. Boo Hoo.
We could never use Blue Book. Even if the government found the equivalent it would still not be fair. Blue Book (and similar estimates) are based in part on the upkeep of the car. We could determine the mileage of each car but that means someone has to look at the odometer every year. Then they would have to do in inspection. Not to the level a mechanic would do if you were buying a used car, but at least a test drive, and a look under the hood. That is just infeasible.
There are other issues as well. Prices would fluctuate wildly. You would have no idea what you are going to pay next year in taxes (even if there are no new spending proposals). At least now you have a very good idea (the state even has an online calculator if you don’t want to do the math).
You are basically proposing a system that is way more complicated and way less consistent. It would mean that people who own regular old cars would be hit with a much bigger bill so that people who buy overpriced luxury cars pay less. That is just a really bad idea.
“People are paying thru the nose so that ST riders can have 80% of their operating costs and 100% of their capital costs borne by somebody else!”
You have to subtract people who both take transit and have cars. And I’m not sure it’s worth singling out Sound Transit out of all the transit agencies. In any case, transit is subsidized because it’s the most efficient form of vehicle transportation, as well as being equitable.
Cars have gigantic hidden subsidies and externalities that dwarf transit. There’s six-lane streets and eight-lane freeways (buses/trains can carry the same number of people in two lanes). Free retail parking that non-drivers pay for in their purchases. All those lanes and parking push everything apart and make it harder to walk to and harm social cohesion and mental health. Oil-field subsidies. Pollution that exacerbates asthma, kills fish, and gets into the food chain. Road maintenance/expansion not covered by gas taxes. One parking space is the size of a living room or bedroom, especially if you include the half-space in front for a car to get in and out of it. In apartments with bundled parking spaces, non-drivers pay for spaces they don’t want and don’t use, In apartments with unbundled spaces, non-drivers pay a share for empty spaces there’s no demand for. The publicly-funded police and highway patrol spend a large part of their time patroling and addressing drivers’ misbehavior. Distortions in foreign policy and the likelyhood of war are substantially increased by the needs of American drivers. And on and on and on.
All transportation has externalities. Light rail has huge ones, resulting in these massive and expensive EISs. Car drivers pay for a higher percentage of their external ivies. Cities are one massive externality that rely on areas and people’s in rural areas to supply their food, water, and energy, and take the garbage and sewage they produce. Your condescending attitude is what got the Dems butts kicked this month. I suggest enlightening yourself by reading about what happened to Phnom Penh Cambodia in 1975. My wife is one of the few residents of that city who survived.
I read no condescension in Mike’s post. He was just pointing out the costs of car-dependence, from the lens of someone without a car.
The “NO on ST3” voters need a place to vent, obviously.
I would have enjoyed a chance to vote on the $.12 gas tax increase back in 2014 that’s funded the Mega project in the I-405/SR167 corridor.
But hey, I don’t live area, and car drivers are truly deserving, so I’m supposed to roll over and play dead.
But, there were those who were looking out for my pocketbook last election by proposing I-2117,
I mean, I need the relief in the price of gas.
That initiative only rolled back the carbon-tax portion.
I wonder why it failed?
> I suggest enlightening yourself by reading about what happened to Phnom Penh Cambodia in 1975. My wife is one of the few residents of that city who survived.
You shouldn’t try to “win” arguments by bringing in war crimes, let alone dragging your wife into the conversation.
Also it doesn’t even make sense, it’s not as if the regime was pro car owners
Those of us on the blog living in STs north King subarea will be paying the sales tax to eventually pay off the (non-externality) costs of building the two new Shoreline garage majals.
Snohomish County sales taxpayers will foot the bill for Lynnwood’s.
I rather doubt that whatever revenue ST collects from charging token amounts to park in the garage majals will do more than cover the cost of administering the program.
Are transit agencies getting more funding from the state than just offsetting youth fares? Will state legislators forever lean on feigned helplessness when it comes to our state actually subsidizing the costs of operating transit, and maybe even cover the differential in fleet replacement so transit agencies stop buying CO2-emitting vehicles?
“garage mahal” is a good one
I like “garage mahal” too.
I’d much rather have a white dome to look at than a blue drain spout coming from a bland square building though.
“garage majals” LOVE IT! That wins the Intertubes for today!
So now you’re saying that Democrats are The Khmer Rouge?
“Cities are one massive externality that rely on areas and people’s in rural areas to supply their food, water, and energy, and take the garbage and sewage they produce.”
The same number of people would use more resources if they were spread out evenly across the urban/rural area. Apartment dwellers in Europe use less resources per capita than apartment dwellers in the US. They in turn use less than those in small-lot houses near walkable areas like Mt Baker, and they less than large-lot houses in Kirkland or east Bellevue, and they less than exurban residents in Spanaway or Marysville or Arlington.
There are good things about having a farm and being mostly self-sustainable. But it doesn’t scale to the large populations we have now. You can’t house six million people efficiently in Washington State without cities. And where else would they go? I don’t think exporting half of them to Idaho and Montana is really solving the problem.
And it’s especially bad when people think they live “in the country” or have a rural lifestyle when they don’t. It’s one thing to live and work in a small town, or be a writer or artist who works at home in a small town and keeps close to home and doesn’t buy many things. It’s another thing to live in the same place but act like a suburbanite who drives twenty or forty miles every for shopping and recreational activities and a longer commute than they could have. That’s more miles of utilities to get to your house, more vehicle miles driven, more energy to heat your large house, more products to fill it, etc. That’s how medium-to-high-density walkabe cities are efficient even if they draw food from a surrounding rural land.
Insurance costs are fixed? Ha! I’ve had insurance costs go up even without getting in an accident. Make a claim and they usually go up. Some agencies will even cancel you. Then costs go way up.
Then there is repairs. This is not fixed. The cost to repair an old car can easily run into the thousands. It can come out of the blue, too. You think things are fine, and …. wham! The transmission is shot.
Car tabs are typically very low if you own a cheap vehicle. In contrast it is everything else that will get you. For example imagine you own a 2010 Toyota Corolla. These are very good cars and quite common. Expect to spend around 8 grand on the thing. That is a lot of money for most people. It is fairly reliable but if it has more than 100,000 miles on it (which would be normal for a car like that) it is bound to need repairs. The repairs come with no warning.
Cars a huge burden on the middle class. The taxes people pay are only a small part of it. If you have ever scraped by but bought a car because you had to, you would understand that.
So if you are so offended by the Tab Tax, you have the opportunity to make a personal protest! There are plenty of people who will gladly pay that for the pleasure of living in the Puget Sound region. Make room for one of them.
When you wake up on a 100 degree-100% humidity day somewhere in the “low tax” south you’ll rue the day you wrote that whine about the tab taxes.
Got on the wrong direction at Northgate. Turned around at Shoreline South. Glad it had a center platform, and a covered waiting area with seats.
I was on a train that departed Lynnwood on the northbound tracks, at normal speed. It passed by a train running at normal speed on the southbound tracks. My train only slowed down approaching the switch, and then sped up again after completing the switch. This was on a weekday during the early portion of afternoon peak operations.
Not completely unrelated, the southbound trains I have been on lately between UDS and UWS have been running at full speed, not obeying the 30 mph speed limit under UW (essentially making up for the northbound slow order at UWS).
Interesting. Several of the newer stations have center platforms. I often consider them overkill. If you aren’t making a transfer there, then why bother? But you give an example of why it is handy. It is bad enough when you get turned around and get on the train going the wrong direction. To then have to go up and over (or down and around) is even more annoying.
If you have a lot of luggage or something else on wheels I could see reversing directions in Capitol Hill instead of CID. For example imagine someone taking Link to the airport from Mercer Island. They get dropped off at the station. Link gets there and they quickly get to CID. But they realize they have plenty of time so they just decide to ride through downtown. At worst this costs them ten minutes.
There are other big advantages of a center platform:
– Double direction functionality to vertical devices. That can mean that a rider has two elevators or escalators to choose from in case one breaks down.
– Wider room for directional crowd surges. If most riders are boarding to go in one direction there is more platform width for overflow.
I’ve been saying this for a long time. Center platforms aren’t just for correcting mistakes. They also help if you change your destination en route. Sometimes I head toward somewhere but then decide I don’t want to spend half an hour or an hour to get there, or it may close soon, or my train has delays, so I decide to go somewhere else instead or go home.
Yep exactly. Sometimes you want to abort the mission and call it a day.
The lack of elevator and escalator redundancy to the side platforms at TIBS and Mt Baker still cause frequent and lengthy accessibility blocks that require traveling in the wrong direction to the next station and/or taking a bus to another station.
The new stations with side platforms have either elevator redundancy or track-crossing at-grade entrances, which include ramps.
Regarding the Bellevue station connection to Bellevue square the main “fix” for now would just be the Bellevue grand connection aka the pedestrian corridor on 6th street.