On Thursday, Fix the L8 hosted a race between people walking, rolling, and dancing vs a Route 8 bus. The race was on Denny Way from Dexter Ave to Stewart St. On paper, this should be an easy win for Route 8 as its schedule indicates a 7 minute trip along this segment. Walking is estimated to take 13 minutes. Regular readers of the Blog will be familiar with the severe reliability issues that Route 8 endures. Jason Li recently wrote a 3-part series on the route: Route 8 Bus Lanes, Redesigning Denny Way, and Long W8s.

People cheering on a Route 8 bus before the race

While the race was scheduled to start at 5pm, we waited for some racers that were on a Route 8 bus from Capitol Hill that was running 30 minutes behind schedule. While we waited, I spoke with a few people to learn about their experience with the route. One person mentioned they recently bought a scooter as Route 8 was too unreliable for their commute. Another mentioned they moved from Capitol Hill to South Lake Union to avoid taking Route 8. After a few introductory words from organizers Nick Sattele and Jason Li, the race kicked off as Metro bus 8047 crossed Dexter Ave at 5:29pm.

The race begins!

The crowd of about 150 people walking got off to a strong start as the front of the group reached 9th Ave while the bus was still back at 8th Ave.

Zoom in to see the bus behind 7 cars

The bus kept its pace as it crossed 9th Ave when the group approached Westlake Ave.

Still about a block behind

At the Route 8 stop on the east side of Westlake Ave, about 20 people were waiting for the bus. As the front of the group climbed up the hill just before Boren Ave, the bus was nowhere to be seen.

A beautiful day for a nice stroll, even if it’s uphill

The race was not over yet. Route 8 still had one trick up its sleeve: a 1 block bus only lane between Minor Ave and Stewart St.

Unfortunately for the bus, that bus lane was not long enough and the dance group leading the pack crossed the finish line at 5:45pm, for a total race time of 16 minutes.

1st Place!

Bus 8047 crossed the finish line 5 minutes later, at 5:50pm. Less than a minute later, a surprise 3rd place finisher crossed the line: bus 8044.

2nd and 3rd Place

While the second bus was useful for bringing some race participants up Capitol Hill, it further emphasizes the route’s unreliability. The need for bus only lanes on Denny Way is clear. It’s up to SDOT to make them happen.

31 Replies to “Race the L8”

  1. Coincidentally, I was in the area at the same time walking from REI to Aurora (now 7th ave N) to take the 28 home. I saw the race crowd across the street and stepped into Whole Foods for a quick bite.

    Traffic was horrid that day. Cars were blocking buses, buses were blocking intersections, pedestrians blocking both. There were three route 40’s back-to-back-to-back along Blanchard trying to reach Whole Foods.And thr streetcar stood idle a block away waiting for the calamity to clear.

    Bus lanes didn’t help. Which proves my argument that they’re not always the right solution, especially if they are installed in nonsensical places such as in Ballard right now. SDOT must come up with more strategical and radical ideas for resolving chokepoints for the 8, such as Westlake & Denny. Shortening the 8 or developing a shorter route during peak hour. Staging overflow buses in SLU to enter in service during severe delays and turning them around at 23rd ave …or rerouting the 8 off Denny between the Seattle Ctr and Stewart.

    1. I’d encourage you to read the “Redesigning Denny Way” article linked at the beginning of this one.

      The issue for northbound buses at Denny and Westlake is just the cars trying to turn right and needing to contend with a high volume of pedestrian traffic at a signalized intersection. This means only one or two cars can make it through the intersection per light cycle which really bogs down the bus lane, and our recommendation is to restrict that right turn for general traffic and have drivers use Lenora instead.

      Similar treatments would need to be applied for a bus lane on Denny Way to push drivers towards turning at uncontrolled intersections. This would allow for more traffic flow while also improving pedestrian safety as these are have much shorter sidewalks, especially since many of them are for one-way roads and have curb bulbs.

      Shortening or splitting Route 8 would be expressly against Metro’s equity goals so I do not see that as something they would consider. King County Metro also said they’re really hesitant to add more service to Denny if those hours are just going to be spent crawling in traffic, so I don’t see them staging “backup” buses anytime soon. They already need 3,000 more service hours just to meet the scheduled 12-minute headways and throwing more buses solely for the worst congested parts of the route would be prohibitively expensive, especially with Metro projected to have a negative funding balance by the end of the decade.

      As for re-routing buses off Denny, there is the upcoming Harrison / Mercer Transit Access project, but that wouldn’t really be fully up and running until construction for Ballard Link finishes. It’s also a less direct and therefore slower route while losing a lot of valuable catchment area that includes major job centers, Belltown (the second-densest neighborhood in Seattle).

    2. SDOT must come up with more strategical and radical ideas for resolving chokepoints for the 8, such as Westlake & Denny.

      The bus serves Westlake & Denny so I’m not even sure what “strategical” things you are even proposing. Somehow, someway, a bus has to make it from one end of Denny to the other. It can deviate for a while and then come back but that would be worse then slogging along the main corridor. This (https://maps.app.goo.gl/FBbU7jgmP91qhd2e9) is not a real solution. You could avoid Denny entirely but that would mean no service to Belltown. It would also mean the bus is on Mercer or Roy, which has its own traffic problems. You just can’t “detour” your way out of the problem. You can, however, add enough right-of-way to allow buses to get through an area without too much delay. Of course there are particular issues that require some finesse. But Jason Li wrote an entire essay about that! His proposals were well thought out and definitely would allow the bus to run faster.

      1. @Ross… A strategic solution would be staging extra buses in South Lake Union during the PM rush hour. When severe delays occur, those buses could enter service around Aurora or Westlake and start picking up large groups of riders who have been waiting for a long time. Then those buses can be turned around at 23rd Ave and serve the opposite direction.

        Another option is making a side street completely bus only, or during the p.m. Rush only, all the way from Aurora to Fairview. Then as the bus returns to Denny, it can have a special signal to stop all other traffic and allow the bus to come through.

        Another option is to reconfigure streets on the western slope of Capitol Hill so that buses can use Lakeview blvd to reach the Hill instead.

        The more “improvements” SDOT implements around the city, the more I’m realizing some of them are completely unnecessary and don’t address real issues. Just because we’re getting new bus lanes, doesn’t mean service will vastly improve.

      2. A strategic solution would be staging extra buses in South Lake Union during the PM rush hour. When severe delays occur, those buses could enter service around Aurora or Westlake and start picking up large groups of riders who have been waiting for a long time. Then those buses can be turned around at 23rd Ave and serve the opposite direction.

        That would be extremely expensive and still not make it any faster to get from one end of Denny to the other.

        Another option is making a side street completely bus only, or during the p.m. Rush only, all the way from Aurora to Fairview.

        Yes, but that means a big detour. That too costs extra money and means that it takes a long time for riders to travel along the corridor. If you only applied the detour at rush hour, riders would have to wonder where their bus is. They would have to check the schedule and then realize they need to walk an extra three blocks just so they can catch the bus that eventually goes back to the same corridor they were waiting at.

        Likewise Lakeview would be a huge detour. Remember, the bus serves *the corridor*. If you look at the ridership you can see that despite the terrible speed and frequency, hundreds of riders use each stop along Denny, each direction.

        We shouldn’t force the buses out of their way because we lack the courage to take a lane. At a certain point — which we have reached already — there is little that can be done to make driving really fast and easy. It is much better to force drivers out of their way then force the bus out of the way. Ironically, this can lead to more pleasant driving, as we’ve seen in Europe. If driving, you have to go well out of your way. But as a result the only people that drive are those that are hauling stuff or heading out of town.

        In this case the strategic thing to do is let cars have Mercer (for now anyway). By all means anything clever we can do, like tolling or simply getting rid of the on-ramp on Yale would be most welcome. That alone could make a big difference. But there are plenty of cars going other directions because there is no reason not to. The bus isn’t faster — not even close. That is the problem. That doesn’t mean BAT lanes would be perfect and operate like contraflow lanes or center-running buses. But if the buses are faster than driving it makes a huge difference. More people take the bus. The buses can run more often — at no additional cost. As time goes on you make other little changes (that Jason Li detailed) that are very strategic and could make a big difference.

      3. I agree with Ross – if you’re forcing someone out of the way, why not force cars?

        I suspect that if we take a lane, more people will be traveling on Denny in buses than are traveling there in cars now.

  2. Thanks for attending and for the coverage, Michael! Was great chatting with you towards the end of the race. Would it be okay if we the campaign some of these photos?

    We also plan on making this a regular event until the L8 is fixed for those who couldn’t make it!

      2. I’ve uploaded the pictures to the Drive folder linked on the Fix the L8 website.

  3. I think restricting the southbound Yale Street I-5 ramp might pretty effective as well. As previously discussed I-5 southbound is backed up so denny way eastbound just ends up being a parking lot.

    For the I-5 wsdot did investigate closing the ramp. Or perhaps that ramp could be tolled from 4~7 pm Peak period. If even that is not possible maybe at least restricting the ramp to HOV 2+ from 4 to 7 pm could work as well.

    There would still be i-5 southbound ramps at both mercer street and seneca and it’s not like getting to the ramp any faster would make a difference as one is just waiting for i5 traffic.

    maybe we could talk directly with WSDOT as they control the ramps

    1. If they were to restrict ramp access, I definitely would hope for increase transit service to compensate. Maybe have 595 and 578 serve SLU and enter at Stewart and encourage those affected to do a transfer from 590 at Tacoma Dome/577 at Federal Way?

      1. Agreed but I think it is yet to be seen what future lies for these buses after Federal Way Link opens

    2. Wesley: I have written SDOT and others for the Yale Avenue solution for several years. After fall 2021, there is little transit service on Howell Street; the traffic now on Denny Way could divert to Howell to reach the ramp. SDOT could make Yale Avenue one-way northbound or even cut it off from Denny Way. Traffic heading south from SLU could also access the deep bore via Harrison Street and 6th Avenue.

    3. There is a high-level study that looks into the I-5 downtown access with intention to consolidate some of them. It seems to be one of the early tasks under Cascadia High Speed Rail & I-5 Program.

  4. Thanks for covering the race! We totally forgot to actually time it. I’m glad someone documented just how slow the bus is

  6. I appreciated the email inviting people to the L8 race from Seattle Central Greenways. But I already had other plans. If I’d been able to go, I’d have said “hi” to people from this blog and “thank you” to the people behind this festive protest! I think it caused good change and brightened a lot of peoples day! I asked my husband what costume or schtick we’d have worn. He said we could have brought a bunch of our cats, dressed up as shepherds, and made a point that we could herd cats uphill faster than the 8 could pretty much do anything. We’re having fun watching the videos of people balancing la croix on their heads. That seltzer moved so slowly in that race. Was it still fizzy at the end of the race?

    1. He said we could have brought a bunch of our cats, dressed up as shepherds, and made a point that we could herd cats uphill faster than the 8 could pretty much do anything.

      That would have been awesome! Just the thought of it cracks me up.

  7. As far as adding more service on Denny, what if Metro rerouted route 11 to serve Denny and finish in magnolia? It could take over the 24 or 33. Magnolia would still have a direct route into downtown.
    I know that would suck for riders at Madison park who just want to get to Westlake, which I’m sure is a sizable portion.

    1. Most of that is the 8/11 concept that’s in Metro Connects 2050 (route 1051 1061, a RapidRide candiate), and Ross Bleakney and some others have advocated for. The Metro Connects concept goes from Madison Park to Uptown and continues north on 15th Ave W to Fisherman’s Terminal. That would serve the Smith Cove station in Ballard Link, but it wouldn’t get into the interior of Magnolia. Metro Connects is unfunded at this point, and a route in the long-term vision is not a commitment to it.

      I’m less favorable to it because I think the 11’s pre-2022 routing (Madison-Pine) is best. That’s the most useful east-west routing because it connects the biggest activity centers in that area to each other, and it’s still relatively close to areas both north and south of it (the Broadway Market, Swedish/SeattleU). So I’d make that the primary and most frequent east-west route for Capitol Hill, and put the other routes around it. That would include an 8-like route, which may do all that other stuff but maybe not go to Madison Park.

      1. We’ve timed it an even with a mild transfer penalty, the fastest way to Westlake Station from Madison Park will always be the current routing and a transfer at CHS (after East Link)

        It does miss pike/pine but I think CHS is a bigger transfer node. I’d be interested to see if the new routing increases ridership in Madison Park tho.

    2. If the map opens with only one other route selected, deselect it in the right sidebar to see all the routes, then select 1061. (Not 1051, I got a digit wrong above.)

    3. It would also suck for riders going from Magnolia to Westlake or further south along 3rd Ave. If 11 needs to be extended to uptown, it better to just overlap with existing service to create redundancy or serve new destination. 24/33 has been like this for a while. It probably needs more analysis to prove it is a good idea to re-route 24-33 out of 3rd Ave.
      Before Ballard Link opens, I think Westlake remains crucial to area served by 24/33. After Ballard Link opens things may change because you can argue that whoever going to Westlake can take 24/33-11 and transfer Link at Smith Cove.

    4. Sending the 11 across on Thomas/John/Denny is the way to go. If you are headed to First Hill or that end of downtown you can transfer to the G. If you are headed to Westlake or any other Link location you can transfer to Link. You lose your one-seat ride to various Pike/Pine locations but gain a one-seat ride to the Denny corridor and Uptown. That is a positive trade. By all means the transfer to Pike/Pine should be better. The 10/12 should be running every ten minutes where the buses cross. That could easily be achieved by simply branching the 10/12 further north (as some planners have proposed).

      The main issue is how to run the 11. Merging it with a Magnolia bus is interesting. I could see it, but only if we get a lot more service. The 8 could be running every fifteen minutes. The 11/24 would run every fifteen minutes as well. They would be timed to run every 7.5 minutes along Denny/John/Thomas. Riders heading to the middle of downtown from Magnolia would just transfer to any of the buses heading that way. Of course this really couldn’t happen until the Denny corridor gets a lot faster.

      There are a bunch of ways to do it but I think the simplest is to just merge the 8 and 11 (and not have service on MLK between Rainier and Madison). At worse this “over-serves” Madison Park. I can live with that. The area has decent ridership and relatively fast travel times — it is a fairly cost effective corridor. If the main part of the 8 (Uptown to Madison Valley) has buses running every 7.5 minutes then maybe can save a few pennies by turning back one of them (or branching there and resurrecting service for that part of MLK). But we are clearly nowhere near that in terms of service funding. Combining the 11 and 8 would save a bunch of money and allow the 8 to run more often (even in its slow state).

  8. This corridor is getting choked by cars and pedestrians. With the hill and freeway, we should build a gondola. If we put transit in the air and remove bus lanes, we can widen the sidewalk, shorten crosswalks, and add good bicycle lanes instead of bus lanes. Transit would be more reliable and faster.

  9. I live in Queen Anne and work in Madison Valley. I ride the 8 to and from work five days a week. Everyone keeps focusing on Denny Way, which is an issue for sure. But I find the situation much worse the other way around, going from Madison Valley to Queen Anne. Sure, catching the 8 in Queen Anne, it’s always late. But I think the longest I’ve waited was about 15-20 minutes. When catching the 8 in Madison Valley, there have been times when it just never showed up. Just last Thursday I waited for an hour and a half before I gave up. What makes it worse is that any information I look at (Google maps, One Bus Away, the marquee at the stop, etc.) will either give false information or none at all. I sucks to be told that the 8 will arrive in ten minutes. Wait ten minutes, no bus. Check again, 8 will arrive in five minutes, no bus. And so on and so on. Until the next thing I know I’ve been waiting an hour and a half. That might that I gave up and walked home, I walked the same route the 8 takes. I was walking for about an hour and not a single 8 passed me.

    1. Yeah SDOT has gotten the message that the Eastbound bus stinks (which they’re studying) so I’m pretty worried about the Westbound now. We were told we’d get some more data from them on this but anecdotally the westbound bus at CHS is insanely unreliable too.

      Part of that may be that eastbound delays cascade but I’m not convinced that the MLK section is particularly ‘reliable’.

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